"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Nevaeh]

Broly is the reason we have female super saiyans. Say it ain't so

[HeroR]

So, just like I assumed, Kale came from the anime staff which (as seen by what ended up happening) used it as a chance to shoehorn their fan fiction. Color me surprised...

And Toryama was completely okay with it and Cali wouldn't have existed without Kale.

Not sure why Jiren's design and backstory being Toriyama's is surprising. Jiren's backstory isn't even bad, just not original.

Well, unoriginal is generally seen as a bad thing. He likes to subvert expectations, doesn't he. Or was him having an unoriginal back-story the twist here. Also, Jiren's design is perhaps my least favorite DB villain design.

Only because people don't understand that nothing is really original. Zamasu is well loved and there is nothing original about him or his motive. He's basically the archetype RPG villain. What makes a story interesting is execution, not how original something is.

Toriyama did subvert expectations in that he gave Jiren a backstory. Like how much do you know about Hit? How much do you actually know about Freeza?

It's still very Toriyama that he gave a grey alien archetype a body builders body. Which is what I find funny about Jiren.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I predicted ZenkaiBoost would be livid about what we found out from the spoilers about Goku. He didn't disappoint (in that other thread)

Guess what, Goku couldn't do what Vegeta failed to do as well. I'm actually quite happy with this, because the show is Goku-centric in another way than say, GT - a better way. We see Goku all the time, but we see him struggle, fall short and not uberwpn everyone (though he still does better than others). In GT we not only saw him all the time, but he was the only character who could do anything - and he did it all the time. I understand some people are bothered by Goku not succeeding, but that actually screams entitlement. I'm also not a big fan of the "But muh main character!" syndrome. Someone being the main char doesn't oblige the writers to make him win every time and always succeed. That's an out of universe reason anyway and it's quite cynical to cite it IMO.

You're a Vegeta fanboy, so I'm curious why you are happy with Jiren beating Goku?

That means Vegeta's promise meant nothing

It means Vegeta passing on his trust to Goku meant nothing

It means Vegeta's speeches meant nothing

Goku losing to Jiren also DEvalues Vegeta as a character and his motivations/developments during the later part of the arc. Think about that

You arent looking at the bigger picture

You may hate Goku for what ever reason, but this rushed ending not only devalues Goku, but it devalues an entire hyped up new form, and it devalues Vegeta's motivations and character developments.

I don't see how people who claim to be on the ball in regards to criticism, are suddenly ok with this ending

Not to mention that Jiren while struggling against Omen was somehow able to beat MUI Goku just because "he got serious this time"...thats an asspull...yet people complained about Vegeta and Goku? No it was Jiren who ended up being the real mary sue

Well, no one actually saw the ending. Just some brief summery which doesn't tell us everything, especially context.

We don't even know how Jiren won. Maybe Jiren do beat UI into paste after powering up. Maybe Goku's UI runs out at the last second like Vegetto Blue. Maybe Goku slips on a rock and plummets out of the ring or he trips on Freeza's prone body. Maybe that trunk from the 22nd tournament crossover and runs Goku off the stage. I mean, we really don't know.

Spoilers explicitly state Jiren hits Goku point blank with a blast.

So regardless, Jiren does regain the upperhand against MUI Goku, which doesn't seem right.

Regardless of that, It doesnt matter how Jiren wins. Goku is still losing.

Goku is still going to lose despite Goku achieving a hyped up new form that the gods were in awe of.

Despite Goku constantly surpassing his limits, Jiren will one up him by simply "getting serious"

Who knew that all it took, all along, was to just get serious

All it takes to gain the upperhand and then defeat MUI is to just "get serious"

Regardless of "how" it happens (that's really semantics) Goku is still going to lose, which leaves a very sour taste in the mouth of many

As others have mentioned, Goku hasn't had 1 big win yet In Super. Goku was due - and this would've been the perfect opportunity to redeem Goku and end Super on the highest note possible

Instead we get this non sense. Jiren beating Goku is actually the most predictable ending because Goku has lost time and time again in Super. Everyone expected Jiren to win.

Frieza getting the win or being the last one against Jiren is even more predictable because everyone knew Frieza was being saved for this

Goku winning is what would have actually been the unpredictable out come

To all the people who were hoping Goku would finally just get his 1 win in Super, it doesnt matter how Goku ends up losing, the fact is, Goku is going to lose and it's an insanely disappointing predictable ending that entirely shits the bed

Goku always losing has become this shitty trope that gets spammed to death

Super always failed to end an arc in a satisfying way : (

First the terrible ending of the future trunks arc, and now this god awful ending of the tournament of power arc....and the tournament of power one hurts because I was loving everything about it from episodes 110 to 129.

I'm simply no longer hyped for 130 and 131. Theres a small chance I still even watch. And I personally wont care if I dont ever watch 130 and 131 now. I simply move on and don't invest my time into things I am no longer interested in. No anger. Just indifference and ignore. They really shit the bed with MUI Goku, and MUI Goku vs Jiren...and I'm not going to reward Toriyama/Toei for completely ruining it

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Not sure why Jiren's design and backstory being Toriyama's is surprising. Jiren's backstory isn't even bad, just not original.

Well, unoriginal is generally seen as a bad thing. He likes to subvert expectations, doesn't he. Or was him having an unoriginal back-story the twist here. Also, Jiren's design is perhaps my least favorite DB villain design.

I thought GT hinted that Piccolo was stuck in Hell forever for no real reason.

I thought so too for the longest of time, and there was something poetic about him guarding hell , but right at the end, when they shake hands and Goku insists on it, something like an electric charge occurs and Piccolo says something "Goku, did you...." I used to think that it was supposed to show Piccolo understanding that Goku had ascended but upon re-watch, I no longer think. Others think so too. It was just never made clear or confirmed.

If Toriyama were truly about subverting expectations, then Goku would've been the one beating Jiren, because Goku has done nothing but lose in Super

[HeroR]

Spoilers explicitly state Jiren hits Goku point blank with a blast.

So regardless, Jiren does regain the upperhand against MUI Goku, which doesn't seem right.

Regardless of that, It doesnt matter how Jiren wins. Goku is still losing.

Goku is still going to lose despite Goku achieving a hyped up new form that the gods were in awe of.

Despite Goku constantly surpassing his limits, Jiren will one up him by simply "getting serious"

Who knew that all it took, all along, was to just get serious

All it takes to gain the upperhand and then defeat MUI is to just "get serious"

Regardless of "how" it happens (that's really semantics) Goku is still going to lose, which leaves a very sour taste in the mouth of many

As others have mentioned, Goku hasn't had 1 big win yet In Super. Goku was due - and this would've been the perfect opportunity to redeem Goku and end Super on the highest note possible

Instead we get this non sense. Jiren beating Goku is actually the most predictable ending because Goku has lost time and time again in Super. Everyone expected Jiren to win.

Frieza getting the win or being the last one against Jiren is even more predictable because everyone knew Frieza was being saved for this

Goku winning is what would have actually been the unpredictable out come

To all the people who were hoping Goku would finally just get his 1 win in Super, it doesnt matter how Goku ends up losing, the fact is, Goku is going to lose and it's an insanely disappointing predictable ending that entirely shits the bed

Goku always losing has become this shitty trope that gets spammed to death

Super always failed to end an arc in a satisfying way : (

First the terrible ending of the future trunks arc, and now this god awful ending of the tournament of power arc....and the tournament of power one hurts because I was loving everything about it from episodes 110 to 129.

I'm simply no longer hyped for 130 and 131. Theres a small chance I still even watch. And I personally wont care if I dont ever watch 130 and 131 now. I simply move on and don't invest my time into things I am no longer interested in. No anger. Just indifference and ignore. They really shit the bed with MUI Goku, and MUI Goku vs Jiren...and I'm not going to reward Toriyama/Toei for completely ruining the ending

True, but nothing said that blast knocked Goku of the ring and 'blowing Goku back' with one attack is hardly getting the upper hand. I mean, Freeza on Namek got some good hits on Super Saiyan Goku, but overall it was wiped for Freeza especially in the manga.

It does matter since Goku losing doesn't necessarily means Jiren beat him.

So, Goku basically becomes Ultimate Gohan from the Buu Saga. Or Super Saiyan 3 in general form the Buu Saga or heck Super Saiyan God. While it's disappointing, Goku getting a new form hasn't won him a victory since Namek.

Again, we don't know how it happened since Goku could lose regardless of Jiren 'getting serious'. If Goku burns himself out, then Jiren could just tossed him after getting the shit beating out of him.

Goku didn't need to be redeem since Goku losing again doesn't dismissed his character and what he has done. Would it be completely awesome if he won, yes. Would I have loved if he won, hell yeah. Am I disappointed that he lost, yes. Do I think Goku is lesser because he lost, no, because he still got a technique that the gods didn't get and made them stand up. So while him winning would have been the icing on the cake, the cake itself is already good. It having no icing doesn't suddenly make the cake suck.

That's your choice.

[Michsi]

Not sure why Jiren's design and backstory being Toriyama's is surprising. Jiren's backstory isn't even bad, just not original.

Well, unoriginal is generally seen as a bad thing. He likes to subvert expectations, doesn't he. Or was him having an unoriginal back-story the twist here. Also, Jiren's design is perhaps my least favorite DB villain design.

Only because people don't understand that nothing is really original. Zamasu is well loved and there is nothing original about him or his motive. He's basically the archetype RPG villain. What makes a story interesting is execution, not how original something is.

Toriyama did subvert expectations in that he gave Jiren a backstory. Like how much do you know about Hit? How much do you actually know about Freeza?

It's still very Toriyama that he gave a grey alien archetype a body builders body. Which is what I find funny about Jiren.

I agree about execution, which is why I guess manga Jiren gets more praise than anime Jiren- same archetype, different portrayal. I dunno, there are things that are easier to like, and the over-the-top dramatic villain (that's also conventionally good-looking ) would be one of those things that get popular despite being unoriginal. Jiren doesn't really belong in one of those easy to like categories, so his unoriginality just seems more obvious in his case.

If Toriyama were truly about subverting expectations, then Goku would've been the one beating Jiren, because Goku has done nothing but lose in Super

No matter what, Goku will always have that aura of invincibility, even if he doesn't end up being the last man standing. That's how prominent his status as top shonen protagonist is.

[Luso Saiyan]

And Toryama was completely okay with it and Cali wouldn't have existed without Kale.

Source? We don't know wether Toriyama was "completely okay with it" with it or not. And Caulifla did exist without Kale.

[HeroR]

Well, unoriginal is generally seen as a bad thing. He likes to subvert expectations, doesn't he. Or was him having an unoriginal back-story the twist here. Also, Jiren's design is perhaps my least favorite DB villain design.

Only because people don't understand that nothing is really original. Zamasu is well loved and there is nothing original about him or his motive. He's basically the archetype RPG villain. What makes a story interesting is execution, not how original something is.

Toriyama did subvert expectations in that he gave Jiren a backstory. Like how much do you know about Hit? How much do you actually know about Freeza?

It's still very Toriyama that he gave a grey alien archetype a body builders body. Which is what I find funny about Jiren.

I agree about execution, which is why I guess manga Jiren gets more praise than anime Jiren- same archetype, different portrayal. I dunno, there are things that are easier to like, and the over-the-top dramatic villain (that's also conventionally good-looking ) would be one of those things that get popular despite being unoriginal. Jiren doesn't really belong in one of those easy to like categories, so his unoriginality just seems more obvious in his case.

If Toriyama were truly about subverting expectations, then Goku would've been the one beating Jiren, because Goku has done nothing but lose in Super

No matter what, Goku will always have that aura of invincibility, even if he doesn't end up being the last man standing. That's how prominent his status as top shonen protagonist is.

To be honest, Jiren's execution in the manga is 'meh', but people claimed it better because 'Jiren has a personalty', which is basically Superman with a side of asshole.

Well, there is your subvention. Jiren isn't just another over-the-top ham fest villain that Toriyama is known for, regardless if you think that's bad or good.

And Toryama was completely okay with it and Cali wouldn't have existed without Kale.

Source? We don't know wether Toriyama was "completely okay with it" with it or not. And Caulifla did exist without Kale.

He veto Jiren's original personalty by the anime, but for some reason didn't bother with Kale and instead made another Saiyan to compliment her. And the interview literally said that Cali was created because of Kale.



The line actually said that Toriyama made Cali to go along with Kale. Cali wasn't even in the original outline.

[Rebel Instinct]

How was it ballsy when Toei didn't even do anything with Piccolo in GT? He was so nothing that him being alive or dead didn't matter.

Regardless of opinions on GT, Toei did make use of Piccolo outside of fighting and the bolded is factually untrue.

Piccolo briefly battled a possessed Gohan to try and free him from Baby's influence and later helped Goku rescue the last remaining civilians left on Earth before it exploded (due to the Black Star Dragon Balls) by giving an exhausted Goku his energy so that he could use Instant Transmission to get them to safety. Piccolo also intentionally stayed behind to die with the Earth so that the Black Star Dragon Balls could never be used again. Later, he and Dende were responsible for opening a portal back to Earth so that Goku could escape from Hell and fight Super 17 - something he would be unable to do had he not been dead. Piccolo and his death were instrumental in the events of GT and it was a relatively "ballsy" move to allow him to stay dead for good too, since none of the other Z-Fighters' deaths were ever permanent. It was a clean break from the status quo.

I thought GT hinted that Piccolo was stuck in Hell forever for no real reason.

Piccolo wasn't stuck in Hell for no reason. He was initially sent to Heaven by King Yemma, but chose to be sent to Hell in order to help Goku escape. Piccolo would have been stuck there afterwards, but shortly before Goku leaves with Shenron at the end of the series, he promised to get Yemma to let Piccolo back into Heaven.

[jeffbr92]

EPISODE 130 PREVIEW IMAGE:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Is Goku intending to use Diamond Dust on Jiren? lol

- Goku was only defeated by Beerus, not humiliated. Vegeta was literally trampled and psychologically humiliated by Beerus, saying that the prince of the Saiyans was nothing.
- It does not matter if Goku lost the tournament, he gained a new UP in power, overcame Vegeta and overcame the Time Skip of Hitto twice
- Vegeta was not humiliated in this case, but he was still trapped and made all his training useless. Goku lost to Black, but only after beating Black and Zamasu together with a rage boost. After that, he managed to counter an attack of Merged Zamasu alone, something that Vegeta and Trunks put together for some reason did not
- "Was it still useful to clear the field?" These enemies could be defeated by any other U7 member. And I'm talking about the tournament before the final battle. Before that, Vegeta did nothing
- It does not matter if the UI can not be easily accessed by Goku, it's still a power he has and that makes him much stronger than Vegeta

- Goku used all his transformations on Beerus, just to realize all his resources were useless against a GoD, almost destroying him with one blow and he was defeated twice by him in the same arc.
- It matters as Goku main objective is not surpass Vegeta, he fought a strong guy like Hit as able put a good fight, but ended losing due Hit not being able to use his hidden techniques, he was not satisfied about it.
- Useless you say, but you don’t realize if Vegeta didn’t have trained, he would have been killed by Black and then Goku would be left alone to fight the two, powering-up later or not, he still could take revenge on Black and Goku didn’t. As I said before overpowering Merged Zamasu didn’t acomplished much then they having to rely on fusion and fail one more time.
- We don’t know that, even the likes of Tien and Krillin had fall by weaker enemies, Vegeta was just doing his job as in the end we knew that were just a handful of fighters at his level or possibly stronger.
- Goku has to go through some process before activating UI, we don’t know if he will end being able to use it as a normal thing, yet. And yes, Goku is much more stronger than Vegeta, don’t see the issue with that as he’s the protagonist. It doesn’t mean that Vegeta couldn’t unlock UI in the future though.

- I'm not talking about Toppo with his ''Hakaishin transformation'', in the exhibition tournament he had not shown it and Goku was in advantage at the beginning of the fight
- No matter if they were sparring, they were still fights that received whole episodes dedicated to them (with the exception of Goku Vs Slim Boo) and they had great prominence
- I'm not talking about winning or losing, but about having a really important fight
- SSB KK x20 is a new power up, it's something he could not do before but now in the tournament he does
- The fight with Aniraza was team work, but Goku was still present and was very active, unlike Vegeta and Gohan who did almost nothing
- ''Almost'' is a lot, because we're talking about almost eliminating Jiren
- Yes, he overcame the Hakaishins and mastered a technique that even the Gods can not

Do you think Goku having more than 19 fights in this saga (the other sagas in DBZ have had nothing close to that), 3 power ups and much prominence is something '' standard '' for a protagonist? If you see Naruto for example, it is something much more balanced (perhaps taking out the ninja war, and that even so other characters have stood out)

- Me neither, I just don’t think Goku KKx10 + Blue (It wasn’t x20 that time) would be enough to defeat Toppo who was just surprised by his level of power, but we know there’s plenty more to come from him.
- I don’t see nothing much impressive from these fights, some served to him look cool others were just a waste of time.
- I’m talking about winning and losing, we started this whole subject because you could not stand the fact people wanting Goku to win a major battle for the first time after a long while.
- Whatever you say, KKx20 + SSJB just served to be trashed on this arc, specially by Jiren.
- You can argue about characters use, just fine. I just don't agree that Vegeta and Gohan did nothing as the only thing Goku did before the final battle was defeating Kefla. You can say he was responsible for erasing some universes due defeating its last fighters, but it was not all his work alone.
- Again, not talking about “almost” feats, but actual feats and the outcome of his fight against Jiren is yet to come.
- Highly implied so, but still no confirmation of that.
- I still don’t see the issue, it’s not about fights and screentime, but winning and Goku last major win as against Majin Boo with the help of others. He got all these power-ups and prominence you said, but still acomplished nothing, we’re waiting to see this build to pay off. It doesn't matter much if they give 5 transformations to Goku in the same arc if he still loses at end as it makes him look incompetent.

[HeroR]

How was it ballsy when Toei didn't even do anything with Piccolo in GT? He was so nothing that him being alive or dead didn't matter.

Regardless of opinions on GT, Toei did make use of Piccolo outside of fighting and the bolded is factually untrue.

Piccolo briefly battled a possessed Gohan to try and free him from Baby's influence and later helped Goku rescue the last remaining civilians left on Earth before it exploded (due to the Black Star Dragon Balls) by giving an exhausted Goku his energy so that he could use Instant Transmission to get them to safety. Piccolo also intentionally stayed behind to die with the Earth so that the Black Star Dragon Balls could never be used again. Later, he and Dende were responsible for opening a portal back to Earth so that Goku could escape from Hell and fight Super 17 - something he would be unable to do had he not been dead. Piccolo and his death were instrumental in the events of GT and it was a relatively "ballsy" move to allow him to stay dead for good too, since none of the other Z-Fighters' deaths were ever permanent. It was a clean break from the status quo.

I thought GT hinted that Piccolo was stuck in Hell forever for no real reason.

Piccolo wasn't stuck in Hell for no reason. He was initially sent to Heaven by King Yemma, but chose to be sent to Hell in order to help Goku escape. Piccolo would have been stuck there afterwards, but shortly before Goku leaves with Shenron at the end of the series, he promised to get Yemma to let Piccolo back into Heaven.

Piccolo in GT fought Gohan, and then he just disappeared. There was no sign or even mention of him for like twenty episodes. He could have died to Gohan's Kamehameha as far as we knew. He literally only showed up again to die. That isn't bold, that's just killing off a character for dramatic effect, but not building any investment into it outside of 'did you see Z'.

That entire hell scene have several dozen plot holes and Goku should have been able to escape with Piccolo and Dende. Also, the line about Goku getting Piccolo out of Hell is only in the dub. He just left his ass there in the original version.

Statue Que for the whole of Dragon Ball, maybe, but not GT since again, Piccolo didn't do anything before Gohan attacked him and did do anything again until it was time for him to die.

[Michsi]

To be honest, Jiren's execution in the manga is 'meh', but people claimed it better because 'Jiren has a personalty', which is basically Superman with a side of asshole.

Well, there is your subvention. Jiren isn't just another over-the-top ham fest villain that Toriyama is known for, regardless if you think that's bad or good.

Only if we're talking about DB villain's alone. Jiren's type is as common outside of DB as Zamasu's type, but reception has been vastly different. In many ways I found Toppo and his sense of justice to have been a far more interesting thread to follow and use as Goku's opponent.

Heh, considering that Jiren nearly got Toppo's personality we might've even gotten that clash.

-, he promised to get Yemma to let Piccolo back into Heaven.

Is that in the English version, because I'm about 90% sure it's not in the original Japanese. All Goku says to him is that he's sorry for always causing him trouble, that could never fully repay him and that he will never forget him - or something along those lines. Nothing about getting him back into heaven.

About the whole GT thing- despite Piccolo not being used almost at all in GT(compared to Z ), it was still a brave move since he was a popular character and iconic to the franchise. Again, I'm about 80% Goku gave him his life back, same as the old Kai gave his life to Goku, but whatever.

[Marlowe89]

It seems that Toei has controls more of the original outline than we thought. Especially, seeing as how Kale (a Toei created character) made it to the manga.

Most of the fighters in the tournament look like they were conceived by Toei as opposed to Toriyama or Toyotaro, so I'm not surprised from a character design standpoint, but I didn't expect them to have so much influence on the story outline itself.

It does make me wonder about the process specifics for the previous two arcs.

[Rebel Instinct]

How was it ballsy when Toei didn't even do anything with Piccolo in GT? He was so nothing that him being alive or dead didn't matter.

Regardless of opinions on GT, Toei did make use of Piccolo outside of fighting and the bolded is factually untrue.

Piccolo briefly battled a possessed Gohan to try and free him from Baby's influence and later helped Goku rescue the last remaining civilians left on Earth before it exploded (due to the Black Star Dragon Balls) by giving an exhausted Goku his energy so that he could use Instant Transmission to get them to safety. Piccolo also intentionally stayed behind to die with the Earth so that the Black Star Dragon Balls could never be used again. Later, he and Dende were responsible for opening a portal back to Earth so that Goku could escape from Hell and fight Super 17 - something he would be unable to do had he not been dead. Piccolo and his death were instrumental in the events of GT and it was a relatively "ballsy" move to allow him to stay dead for good too, since none of the other Z-Fighters' deaths were ever permanent. It was a clean break from the status quo.

I thought GT hinted that Piccolo was stuck in Hell forever for no real reason.

Piccolo wasn't stuck in Hell for no reason. He was initially sent to Heaven by King Yemma, but chose to be sent to Hell in order to help Goku escape. Piccolo would have been stuck there afterwards, but shortly before Goku leaves with Shenron at the end of the series, he promised to get Yemma to let Piccolo back into Heaven.

Piccolo in GT fought Gohan, and then he just disappeared. There was no sign or even mention of him for like twenty episodes. He could have died to Gohan's Kamehameha as far as we knew. He literally only showed up again to die. That isn't bold, that's just killing off a character for dramatic effect, but not building any investment into it outside of 'did you see Z'.

That entire hell scene have several dozen plot holes and Goku should have been able to escape with Piccolo and Dende. Also, the line about Goku getting Piccolo out of Hell is only in the dub. He just left his ass there in the original version.

Statue Que for the whole of Dragon Ball, maybe, but not GT since again, Piccolo didn't do anything before Gohan attacked him and did do anything again until it was time for him to die.

You've moved the goalposts completely. This was never about "plotholes" or "building investment". You said that GT didn't do anything with Piccolo and that his death didn't matter. Both of those statements were incorrect. Everything else you pointed out has nothing to do with original points I addressed.

[HeroR]

To be honest, Jiren's execution in the manga is 'meh', but people claimed it better because 'Jiren has a personalty', which is basically Superman with a side of asshole.

Well, there is your subvention. Jiren isn't just another over-the-top ham fest villain that Toriyama is known for, regardless if you think that's bad or good.

Only if we're talking about DB villain's alone. Jiren's type is as common outside of DB as Zamasu's type, but reception has been vastly different. In many ways I found Toppo and his sense of justice to have been a far more interesting thread to follow and use as Goku's opponent.

Heh, considering that Jiren nearly got Toppo's personality we might've even gotten that clash.

-, he promised to get Yemma to let Piccolo back into Heaven.

Is that in the English version, because I'm about 90% sure it's not in the original Japanese. All Goku says to him is that he's sorry for always causing him trouble, that could never fully repay him and that he will never forget him - or something along those lines. Nothing about getting him back into heaven.

That is what I mean. Part of what made Zamasu feel fresh was because he was very different from a normal Dragon Ball villain, even if his personalty and motive are a dime a dozen everywhere else. Jiren has the same novelty to much less extent. Also you can't really compared Zamasu and jiren since Zamasu carried the entire plot of the Future Trunks Saga while Jiren is more like Hit. Main force, but he isn't carrying the story.

The problem with Toppo for me, there are already character like him in Dragon Ball. He's a mixed of the Great Saiyanman meet Captain Ginyu.

Look at Xenoverse 2 to see super hero Jiren.

You've moved the goalposts completely. This was never about "plotholes" or "building investment". You said that GT didn't do anything with Piccolo and that his death didn't matter. Both of those statements were incorrect. Everything else you pointed out has nothing to do with original points I addressed.

I didn't. You just took my 'Piccolo did nothing' literally. When I said nothing, I mean he was set up to do nothing but die. But I will admit that I wasn't clear on that. His death also didn't really matter since the entire thing with Super 17 never made much sense.

[jeffbr92]

[spoiler][/spoiler]
The line actually said that Toriyama made Cali to go along with Kale. Cali wasn't even in the original outline.

Where is this info from?

[HeroR]

[spoiler][/spoiler]
The line actually said that Toriyama made Cali to go along with Kale. Cali wasn't even in the original outline.

Where is this info from?

An interview from Super's current director. You can read it on Herms twitter.

[TheMikado]

Only because people don't understand that nothing is really original. Zamasu is well loved and there is nothing original about him or his motive. He's basically the archetype RPG villain. What makes a story interesting is execution, not how original something is.

Toriyama did subvert expectations in that he gave Jiren a backstory. Like how much do you know about Hit? How much do you actually know about Freeza?

It's still very Toriyama that he gave a grey alien archetype a body builders body. Which is what I find funny about Jiren.

I agree about execution, which is why I guess manga Jiren gets more praise than anime Jiren- same archetype, different portrayal. I dunno, there are things that are easier to like, and the over-the-top dramatic villain (that's also conventionally good-looking ) would be one of those things that get popular despite being unoriginal. Jiren doesn't really belong in one of those easy to like categories, so his unoriginality just seems more obvious in his case.

If Toriyama were truly about subverting expectations, then Goku would've been the one beating Jiren, because Goku has done nothing but lose in Super

No matter what, Goku will always have that aura of invincibility, even if he doesn't end up being the last man standing. That's how prominent his status as top shonen protagonist is.

To be honest, Jiren's execution in the manga is 'meh', but people claimed it better because 'Jiren has a personalty', which is basically Superman with a side of asshole.

Well, there is your subvention. Jiren isn't just another over-the-top ham fest villain that Toriyama is known for, regardless if you think that's bad or good.

And Toryama was completely okay with it and Cali wouldn't have existed without Kale.

Source? We don't know wether Toriyama was "completely okay with it" with it or not. And Caulifla did exist without Kale.

He veto Jiren's original personalty by the anime, but for some reason didn't bother with Kale and instead made another Saiyan to compliment her. And the interview literally said that Cali was created because of Kale.



The line actually said that Toriyama made Cali to go along with Kale. Cali wasn't even in the original outline.

I just want to say I called it from the very beginning on Kale and Caulifa being 1 character.
hahaha

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Hmmm this is kinda funny. It feels like kale/Caulifa looks like what I expected when I initially assumed they would be one character. I wouldn’t be shocked if there was some kind of means for them to suddenly be able to “stay fused”. If that happened I also wouldn’t be surprised if it was originally one character split into two.

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I've been floating the idea that there were not two separate female saiyan characters but one character with two different designs. Primarily due to the similarities in the SSJ hairstyles which didnt make since for them to be so similar in different art given the differences in length. The irony of them fusing into one character when I thought they were one character all along is rather funny. Especially because I always felt like as individual characters they were incomplete. One thing I will say is that she feels like a more complete character now, although still not fully formed. If would have liked to have seen her take a more leadership oriented role but I guess that't not really going to happen.

Anyway I blame Toyotaro for this mess. The reveal of his idea to bring back fusion and Toriyama adding the time limit has gotten us in this mess where the characters are going to need a really convincing reason to not use fusion for everything.

Are you sure you don't mean another word?
Anyway both Caulifa and Kale feel underdeveloped as singular characters. For instance Caulifa is outwardly arrogant while Kale questions her abilities.

An interesting single character would be a female character who outwardly displays arrogance and leadership qualities as the leader of her gang, but inwardly questions her abilities while living in her older brothers shadow.
She has great potential and when finally able to let go of her inner doubts fully realizes he potential through her LSSJ form but is initally unable to control. This causes a character crisis mid tournament in the realization that she is a monster. Her cocky attitude begins to crack showing her inner fragility, however through continuing to struggle in the tournament, the realization that her followers are counting on her she decides she must gain control of herself and emerges in her new form, confident in both her abilities and potential.

Anyway, it was incredibly obvious both in the design, the way they were written, and the original marketing which seemed like it didn't know if they were two characters or one.

[Michsi]

The problem with Toppo for me, there are already character like him in Dragon Ball. He's a mixed of the Great Saiyanman meet Captain Ginyu.

More Saiyaman than Captain Ginyu if you ask me (which they kinda address through Gohan) but it's a type of opponent we've never seen Goku pitted against. I feel like Super went out of it's way to highlight how much Goku isn't the hero sort and that he fight's for his own sake, so him facing someone who is that sort and who would hold Goku's recklessness against him, and then later abandon that sense of justice himself, would have been more thematically weighty than what we got with Jiren. We already got power vs. power with the Kefla fight, could've thrown in just a sprinkle of conflict in there at the end.

Look at Xenoverse 2 to see super hero Jiren.

In a cut scene? Not a gamer, don't usually know what's going on over other than that it spoils a lot of things.

[Rebel Instinct]

You've moved the goalposts completely. This was never about "plotholes" or "building investment". You said that GT didn't do anything with Piccolo and that his death didn't matter. Both of those statements were incorrect. Everything else you pointed out has nothing to do with original points I addressed.

I didn't. You just took my 'Piccolo did nothing' literally. When I said nothing, I mean he was set up to do nothing but die. But I will admit that I wasn't clear on that. His death also didn't really matter since the entire thing with Super 17 never made much sense.

Well, as you said, your meaning wasn't clear. There was no way I would've been able to know that's what you meant when all you said was "Toei didn't even do anything with Piccolo in GT" and "He was so nothing that him being alive or dead didn't matter." Kind of hard to not take literally. Anything else about plotholes and the like where never a part of the discussion until you brought them up. Also, just because the Super 17 arc had issues, it doesn't mean Piccolo's efforts didn't matter. Without him, Goku wouldn't have escaped Hell and Super 17 would've run rampant. Writing quality aside, it was important to the story being told.