"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:10 pm

I'm fine with Jiren beating Goku. Everyone thought that Goku was going to win or get a double KO.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:13 pm

So, can we stop with the false fandom claim that Toriyama does not oversee/heavily involved in the anime either? TOEI clearly comes and checks with him to see if their suggestions are ok. Even the main story points of who U7 characters fight and lose to are from Toriyama. Toriyama is heavily involved contrary to the Internets claims.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:17 pm

Miracles wrote:So, can we stop with the false fandom claim that Toriyama does not oversee/heavily involved in the anime either? TOEI clearly comes and checks with him to see if their suggestions are ok. Even the main story points of who U7 characters fight and lose to are from Toriyama. Toriyama is heavily involved contrary to the Internets claims.
Gotta agree. The whole production situation is a lot less "this party and this party doing this thing and this thing, respectively", and more of an actual collaboration.

Dragon Ball as a whole is a collaborative effort between a multitude of different people of different backgrounds.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:28 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:So, can we stop with the false fandom claim that Toriyama does not oversee/heavily involved in the anime either? TOEI clearly comes and checks with him to see if their suggestions are ok. Even the main story points of who U7 characters fight and lose to are from Toriyama. Toriyama is heavily involved contrary to the Internets claims.
Gotta agree. The whole production situation is a lot less "this party and this party doing this thing and this thing, respectively", and more of an actual collaboration.

Dragon Ball as a whole is a collaborative effort between a multitude of different people of different backgrounds.
Nay, screw that. When it doubt, it's Toei fault.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Cetra » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:31 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Gotta agree. The whole production situation is a lot less "this party and this party doing this thing and this thing, respectively", and more of an actual collaboration.

Dragon Ball as a whole is a collaborative effort between a multitude of different people of different backgrounds.
If anything it confirms even more Toei are not those "Toriyama slaves that only do what he wants" but are equally influencing him and doing their own stuff that has value as well.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:32 pm

Miracles wrote:So, can we stop with the false fandom claim that Toriyama does not oversee/heavily involved in the anime either? TOEI clearly comes and checks with him to see if their suggestions are ok. Even the main story points of who U7 characters fight and lose to are from Toriyama. Toriyama is heavily involved contrary to the Internets claims.
Toriyama's obviously heavily involved in a lot of the initial planning. That doesn't mean he's dictating every minute detail.

And the fandom isn't one person, nor is the internet.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Spider-Man » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:37 pm

Curious to see the artwork of the character that was designed by Toriyama they better release it.
Last edited by Spider-Man on Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:39 pm

Zephyr wrote:Toriyama's obviously heavily involved in a lot of the initial planning. That doesn't mean he's dictating every minute detail.

And the fandom isn't one person, nor is the internet.
Who would think the internet is one person? And who thinks that Toriayma dictates every small detail?
No, the point is, the man does write out the flow of the story and situation points. TOEI does check with him to get approval.
Just like they stated in the last interview and now disclosed in this recent outline release.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Gotta agree. The whole production situation is a lot less "this party and this party doing this thing and this thing, respectively", and more of an actual collaboration.

Dragon Ball as a whole is a collaborative effort between a multitude of different people of different backgrounds.
Yep, as you can see it's a team effort. They presented Kale to Toriyama, he approves of it and in turn gives them Caulifla.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Jigurashi » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:43 pm

Saturnine wrote:I predicted ZenkaiBoost would be livid about what we found out from the spoilers about Goku. He didn't disappoint (in that other thread) :lol:

Guess what, Goku couldn't do what Vegeta failed to do as well. I'm actually quite happy with this, because the show is Goku-centric in another way than say, GT - a better way. We see Goku all the time, but we see him struggle, fall short and not uberwpn everyone (though he still does better than others). In GT we not only saw him all the time, but he was the only character who could do anything - and he did it all the time. I understand some people are bothered by Goku not succeeding, but that actually screams entitlement. I'm also not a big fan of the "But muh main character!" syndrome. Someone being the main char doesn't oblige the writers to make him win every time and always succeed. That's an out of universe reason anyway and it's quite cynical to cite it IMO.
That really isn’t surprising considering Goku couldn’t do what Vegeta couldn’t in most of Super anyway.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:04 pm

Jigurashi wrote:
Saturnine wrote:I predicted ZenkaiBoost would be livid about what we found out from the spoilers about Goku. He didn't disappoint (in that other thread) :lol:

Guess what, Goku couldn't do what Vegeta failed to do as well. I'm actually quite happy with this, because the show is Goku-centric in another way than say, GT - a better way. We see Goku all the time, but we see him struggle, fall short and not uberwpn everyone (though he still does better than others). In GT we not only saw him all the time, but he was the only character who could do anything - and he did it all the time. I understand some people are bothered by Goku not succeeding, but that actually screams entitlement. I'm also not a big fan of the "But muh main character!" syndrome. Someone being the main char doesn't oblige the writers to make him win every time and always succeed. That's an out of universe reason anyway and it's quite cynical to cite it IMO.
That really isn’t surprising considering Goku couldn’t do what Vegeta couldn’t in most of Super anyway.

I’m actually ok. The interview hints at there possibly being a new series after super, where they can explore the characters more. I always had a feeling goku just straight up surpassing someone who even a hakaishin can’t be was not going to happen. Maybe beerus vs MUI goku happens first before an official rematch against
Jiren (image hinted at MUI goku potentially being superior to beerus) if the anime comes back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:01 pm

Aman wrote:They can't make up another end game without some BS Goku> God of All. Which would be the dumbest shit ever, but definitely possible with Akira and Toei.

Zeno is the one character that should never be close to being surpassed, but with DB writing it's sadly on the cards.

The series has jumped the shark in terms of telling a good story and has become all about power and transformations.
Sure they can, that's how DB has always. You're only so powerful until someone comes along and surpasses you. Don't be surprised when Toriyama introduces Zenoshin after Goku and company (usually just the Saiyan types) surpass Zeno and company. I get the feeling this fanbase has forgotten this franchise has always been about power and transformations, regardless if the storytelling was good or not.
Lionel wrote:Goku can at least hang his head high with satisfaction, knowing he mastered what Whis was hoping for him to learn. Where does that leave him now? Does he continue training with Whis or will he move on to some new teacher like Daishinkan?
New teacher if he learned everything he can from Whis, that's the DB-way as shown by Roshi, Karin, Mr. Popo, Kami, and Kaio before Whis, wouldn't make sense otherwise to stay with him if he can learn more from someone else.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Jigurashi » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:01 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Jigurashi wrote:
Saturnine wrote:I predicted ZenkaiBoost would be livid about what we found out from the spoilers about Goku. He didn't disappoint (in that other thread) :lol:

Guess what, Goku couldn't do what Vegeta failed to do as well. I'm actually quite happy with this, because the show is Goku-centric in another way than say, GT - a better way. We see Goku all the time, but we see him struggle, fall short and not uberwpn everyone (though he still does better than others). In GT we not only saw him all the time, but he was the only character who could do anything - and he did it all the time. I understand some people are bothered by Goku not succeeding, but that actually screams entitlement. I'm also not a big fan of the "But muh main character!" syndrome. Someone being the main char doesn't oblige the writers to make him win every time and always succeed. That's an out of universe reason anyway and it's quite cynical to cite it IMO.
That really isn’t surprising considering Goku couldn’t do what Vegeta couldn’t in most of Super anyway.

I’m actually ok. The interview hints at there possibly being a new series after super, where they can explore the characters more. I always had a feeling goku just straight up surpassing someone who even a hakaishin can’t be was not going to happen. Maybe beerus vs MUI goku happens first before an official rematch against
Jiren (image hinted at MUI goku potentially being superior to beerus) if the anime comes back.
It’s possible.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:02 pm

As bitter as I've been about that last preview, I think there are some things that still should be considered.

1) We have the "Our Hero, Son Goku" track from the OST that hasn't been used yet. It doesn't sound like there's anywhere that would be used in 130 based on the information we have so the likely candidate is some time in 131.

2) The "miracle" mentioned in the title. The antagonists winning, be it Jiren or Frieza, is hardly what one would call miraculous. It mentioned that Jiren and Goku are still primed to fight, so Zeno might allow it, or some other unexpected thing could happen. None of the previews for 67 mentioned Zeno showing up and zapping the whole timeline, or Trunks and Mai going off to live with themselves in an alternate timeline.

3) Even with Frieza attacking Jiren from behind, it might not do anything. He tried that on Toppo and ended up getting blasted to hell and back for his trouble. And he's probably not in great shape now after getting his ass kicked for several episodes in a row.

So yeah, as bad as things look there's still plenty of opportunity for stuff to happen for a big shake-up. Wouldn't be the first time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Black Hawk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:08 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:As bitter as I've been about that last preview, I think there are some things that still should be considered.

1) We have the "Our Hero, Son Goku" track from the OST that hasn't been used yet. It doesn't sound like there's anywhere that would be used in 130 based on the information we have so the likely candidate is some time in 131.

2) The "miracle" mentioned in the title. The antagonists winning, be it Jiren or Frieza, is hardly what one would call miraculous. It mentioned that Jiren and Goku are still primed to fight, so Zeno might allow it, or some other unexpected thing could happen. None of the previews for 67 mentioned Zeno showing up and zapping the whole timeline, or Trunks and Mai going off to live with themselves in an alternate timeline.

3) Even with Frieza attacking Jiren from behind, it might not do anything. He tried that on Toppo and ended up getting blasted to hell and back for his trouble. And he's probably not in great shape now after getting his ass kicked for several episodes in a row.

So yeah, as bad as things look there's still plenty of opportunity for stuff to happen for a big shake-up. Wouldn't be the first time.
This is overall my line of thinking as well; Toei could very well be misdirecting us by leading us to focus on red herrings of sorts. That isn't to imply that the events described won't take place, but, rather, that they aren't the primary focus or the endgame. They could be feeding us details that play a part but intentionally omit vitals parts of the story. For all we know, Gokū may not be done just yet or he may not even have actually been eliminated at all. Jiren fell from the ring earlier on, after all, and yet here we are, watching Gokū evenly match and even exceed him.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:20 pm

The tournament is obviously going to end in a draw. Goku is defeated by jiren, times runs out, freeza shoots jiren (does nothing) to reveal that he is still there. So neither universe 11 or 7 get erased. That’s as miraculous as it could get.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Luso Saiyan » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:33 pm

HeroR wrote:He veto Jiren's original personalty by the anime, but for some reason didn't bother with Kale and instead made another Saiyan to compliment her.
"Didn't bother" =/= "completely okay with it".
HeroR wrote:And the interview literally said that Cali was created because of Kale.
Misunderstood your comment. What I was saying is that she as a character is independent of Kale. Either way, my original comment had nothing to do with Caulifla. The circumstances of Caulifla's creation are irrelevant to my criticism of Kale.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:04 pm

Cetra wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Gotta agree. The whole production situation is a lot less "this party and this party doing this thing and this thing, respectively", and more of an actual collaboration.

Dragon Ball as a whole is a collaborative effort between a multitude of different people of different backgrounds.
If anything it confirms even more Toei are not those "Toriyama slaves that only do what he wants" but are equally influencing him and doing their own stuff that has value as well.
I'm not sure these are positives though....

1) We clearly see the entire concept of a female saiyan stems from Toei's desire to capitalize on Broly's popularity. Then Toriyama in turn makes his own female version for some reason. They both get included and are complained about by the fandom as being underdeveloped and pandering... Which is hard to dispute given it wasn't in the original outline and we the concept of female saiyans was Toei's.

2) We see that Toei planned to give Jiren, Toppo's personality but Toriyama nixxed that. Now we have the antagonist of the final arc of the entire series being complained about regularly. Would it have been better to let Jiren be Toppo?
I would wager that it wouldn't have hurt considered he didn't write much about them in the first place and Toyotaro seems to have Jiren being the more talkative one when compared to Goku's fight with Toppo in the manga. Did Toyotaro not get the memo? Personally if you were going to have a bland design it shouldn''t be paired with a bland personality while on the other hand, Toppo is visually interesting enough to have a more muted personality.


Anyway, point is I don't see how the collaborative efforts have paid off to be positive in execution unless just the mere existence of things like the magical form and broly look-a-like qualify as positives.

Also, if anything it would seem to confirm that Toei does what Toriyama tells them to do.

Toriyama sends a outline with little info.
Toei decides to flesh it out, show it to Toriyama.
Toriyama says no, do this.
Toei does it.

I'm not seeing anywhere where they pushed back on Toriyama on Jiren's personality, or making Caulifa, or who was involved with the tournament, or the style or size of it, or any push back whatsoever.
It literally looks like they would do something, scrap it and just do whatever Toriyama said to do even if they were going in a different direction.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:28 pm

I don't know, a lot of people complained about Toppo's personality right up until his GoD moment.

Seems like a lose lose situation.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:04 pm

I'm upset that Toei Jiren couldve been a great character like Anime Black, the Justice gimmick wouldve make him resemble someone like Al Might from Hero Academia.

Toriyama is clearly senile tbh, i even agreed that Black should be a bitch character(See Manga), and Hit being a jabronie(see manga too).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:12 pm

perucho1990 wrote:I'm upset that Toei Jiren couldve been a great character like Anime Black, the Justice gimmick wouldve make him resemble someone like Al Might from Hero Academia.
I don't think so as all that talk about justice and punish evil is what makes tiring for the likes of Toppo and Saiyaman. I like serious Jiren and I'm sure Toei could make him interesting, but instead he was just stoic.
RedHeat wrote:I hope if there's one thing the fandom takes away from this interview is that just because Toriyama is involved doesn't mean that's a good thing.
We knew that since Ressurection of F.
Lord Beerus wrote:Someone needs to have the balls to tell Toriyama, "No. This sounds stupid." Or, "We need more than that to work with."
For which things for example?
TheSaiyanGod wrote:- Once again, Goku was only easily defeated. Vegeta was humiliated, because in addition to losing easily, Beerus insulted him in various ways and stepped on his head
- No matter if Goku's goal was not to overtake Vegeta, it happened.
- Goku counter attack Merged Zamasu did not help at all? He destroyed his halo and deformed his body, which is somewhat absurd considering that Vegeta and Trunks did nothing
- If we are going to use here the argument '' but Goku is the protagonist '', then this discussion does not make sense and it only reinforces that Goku fans want him to win everything just because he is the protagonist
- I still see as a humiliation as Beerus didn't destroyed Goku from the start, but instead made sure to show Goku that every little effort from him as useless against a GoD. Goku might not be as proud as Vegeta, but he's still a Saiyan.
- Goku doesn't care, so that's not a impressive feat, he didn't won against Hit, something that he really wanted to with both not holding back.
- That just made Merged Zamasu angry and stronger leading them to use the Fusion that acomplished nothing.
- What it doesn't make sense are people being delusional in expecting Vegeta to play a better role than the protagonist in this arc, something that never happened. I don't want Goku to always win, if I wanted I would just go back and watch GT, what I want is to all that build pay off and he may finally win a major battle.
- No matter if you did not see anything impressive in the fight, they did exist and some lasted an entire episode
- This discussion started because Goku fans are not satisfied until he gets all the glory, obfuscating all the other characters
- I did not say Vegeta and Gohan did nothing, but compared to Goku, it's almost nothing. And it's not just because Goku is the protagonist, in DBZ he did not need so much screen time to shine.
- That still falls under the argument of screentime, which I have no problem of with, some of these fights though not impressive for me, served to not only introduce, but to show how each character compares with Goku.
- You're misinterpreting things, not all Goku fans thinks that way and not only his fans are disatisfied with the possibility of him not defeating Jiren. I don't get that "obfuscating all characters" you've said: I was okay with Goku losing to Beerus, I disliked how he killed Freeza because of Whis, I was fine that Trunks defeated Merged Zamasu, but this time... In this arc, a tournament that Goku really wanted to happen, busted his ass on training and fights, mastered a technique that not even GoDs could and still loses? For me it's a terrible conclusion.
- Goku was all over the place in Z. The only character who was more prevalent in Z was Gohan, because Toriyama intended to use him as the protagonist, but failed due popularity.
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