"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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fexus
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by fexus » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:10 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Toriyama wouldn't have written a 'war' storyline even in the 1990s. He doesn't have it in him, it's why he doesn't give the story consequences or illustrate any points.

The only way we'll ever get a 'war' storyline in an official Dragon Ball work is if a director or writer with an actual, concrete vision is brought onto the project and Toriyama has no involvement.
You don't know that and it seems all your speculation about Toriyama writing is just Toriyama doesn't want to do it. That doesn't have anything to do with the writing strength.
soulnova wrote: I can't comment on One Piece, but I can with Naruto. *sigh*
That's because to them the world is already in a fine state. People in the DB world did try and that's when we got Satan. The hope for humanity for them. You have to remember that the DB world is in itself weird. People wouldn't question what seems to be a daily occurrence.
VegettoEX wrote: You seem to be. I've explained a specific area in which I feel One Piece has stronger writing than Dragon Ball, and rather than engage in a conversation about it, you simply say that it doesn't and that's it and it's ridiculous.

OK, well, I don't know what else to say to you and it doesn't seem like you actually want a conversation. That's fine, but - heads up here - please then don't go on to repeat yourself if other people beyond me want to converse about it, as well, and provide these types of specific examples.
Again opinions. I can say the exact opposite and I really wouldn't be wrong. Let me try.
One piece world creation really isn't as good as people say it is. It's actually on the same level as Dragon Ball.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by soulnova » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:12 pm

Wait, WAIT, we COULD have an actual War Arc in Dragon Ball if Toriyama simply decided to explain.





Saiyans VS Tsufur war

The decisions leading to the rebellion. Young Bardock and Gine. The rise of King Vegeta. Vegeta's mother!?

Goddammit.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:18 pm

fexus wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Toriyama wouldn't have written a 'war' storyline even in the 1990s. He doesn't have it in him, it's why he doesn't give the story consequences or illustrate any points.

The only way we'll ever get a 'war' storyline in an official Dragon Ball work is if a director or writer with an actual, concrete vision is brought onto the project and Toriyama has no involvement.
You don't know that and it seems all your speculation about Toriyama writing is just Toriyama doesn't want to do it. That doesn't have anything to do with the writing strength.
One can't tell a story well if one doesn't take pleasure in the telling of a story. Toriyama does not have the sort of character to write that sort of story so that it has actual consequences, he's said it himself numerous times as he has talked about the Bardock TV special.

Hell, look at every story arc of the original Dragon Ball comic. Everything always falls back on "Gokuu comes in and saves the day." Look at Kami to Kami, where Gokuu loses and yet still no consequences comes of it. Or Fukkatsu no F where Whis suddenly has a time-reversal ability to knock the teeth out of what very little story there already was.

Toriyama doesn't give a shit about telling serious stories and hasn't shown the ability to do any more than write a single sort of storyline, either.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Flame Dragon » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:21 pm

If we ever get a War Arc, it must be more like Marineford and less like the 4th Ninja War.

Kishimoto writing is already really subpar... but it reached godawful levels in the War Arc.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by fexus » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:24 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
fexus wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Toriyama wouldn't have written a 'war' storyline even in the 1990s. He doesn't have it in him, it's why he doesn't give the story consequences or illustrate any points.

The only way we'll ever get a 'war' storyline in an official Dragon Ball work is if a director or writer with an actual, concrete vision is brought onto the project and Toriyama has no involvement.
You don't know that and it seems all your speculation about Toriyama writing is just Toriyama doesn't want to do it. That doesn't have anything to do with the writing strength.
One can't tell a story well if one doesn't take pleasure in the telling of a story. Toriyama does not have the sort of character to write that sort of story so that it has actual consequences, he's said it himself numerous times as he has talked about the Bardock TV special.

Hell, look at every story arc of the original Dragon Ball comic. Everything always falls back on "Gokuu comes in and saves the day." Look at Kami to Kami, where Gokuu loses and yet still no consequences comes of it. Or Fukkatsu no F where Whis suddenly has a time-reversal ability to knock the teeth out of what very little story there already was.

Toriyama doesn't give a shit about telling serious stories and hasn't shown the ability to do any more than write a single sort of storyline, either.
Again that doesn't have anything to do with the writing. He just doesn't want to do it. The thing here is that we haven't seen him doing anything like that. This makes all your post so far a speculation. I don't care if you want to speculate but trying to make it out like an obvious fact is just out of line. I know you like Naruto and I respect that but making your fanboyism stand out so much just makes me sick.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Araki » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:24 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:
The Fourth Great Shinobi War worked in Naruto
Worked as it made sense, writing,, or execution?
The only way the Naruto war "worked" was making the series lose viewers, readers and fans by how boring, dragged and insufferable it was after so many years people suffered through that. It's pretty much an indefensible joke - and let's not even talk about the anime edition where they play the same flashbacks over and over.
What a big war where only one relevant character dies and is remembered afterwards (after years and years of pointless and boring battles).
Yep, fanboyism does blind people.

If you want to see good wars in anime/manga try something more sophisticated like the seinen Kingdom, not Naruto. Stay the hell away from it.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by ssjgbunnyman » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:35 pm

I'm all for entering new territory but DB never struck me as the type of story that would benefit from a war arc. I mean what would it even be about? What would they be fighting for? And in the end, what would going through it all mean when the Dragon balls could just undo it all.

I suppose if Super dives into DC levels of multiverse action with the 12 universes a war arc could be plausible and perhaps even enjoyable but I just don't see it working while still maintaining that old fashioned Toriyama charm.

That being said, Marineford would be an excellent place to base a war arc on.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by soulnova » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:44 pm

ssjgbunnyman wrote:I'm all for entering new territory but DB never struck me as the type of story that would benefit from a war arc. I mean what would it even be about? What would they be fighting for?
The Super Saiyan God War

Saiyans vs Tsufuru War
Check out Journey's End, a short story of Goku and Vegeta's final days. "Time is running out for the last two Saiyans"

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by shinmaru » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:47 pm

War in DragonBall won't work. Maybe they can make a war story if they rewind time when the Saiya-jins were conquering world's or fighting Freeza before he conquered them. But I don't see more options for war in DragonBall.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Abel Taylor » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:56 pm

I've never seen One Piece, so I can't comment on it's war arc, but I would hate if Dragon Ball had an arc like the 4th Shinobi World War. The only things their that interested me were the Susano'o, 6 Paths Madara, amd Naruto vs Sasuke.

I do think Dragon Ball could do a war arc though, and it would be good as long as it was simple. Like, a god of destruction from another universe brings over his crowd to try to assimilate universe 7. Beerus fights the God of Destruction, The Z-Fighters fight the crowd, and Whis stays neutral or something, maybe comic relief or fight someone in his weighr class. It could be short and sweet. Throw in some twists, power creeps, or separatioof the fighters over a vast distance, and it could easily go 13 episodes, or more if they pacled it full of content. It would just be way different than the 4th Shinobi World War. More like Ressurection F than Naruto.

Or they could pull a Secret Wars, which would be a lot like a Tenkaichi Tournament, and right up Dragon Ball's alley.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by ssjgbunnyman » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:00 pm

soulnova wrote:
ssjgbunnyman wrote:I'm all for entering new territory but DB never struck me as the type of story that would benefit from a war arc. I mean what would it even be about? What would they be fighting for?
The Super Saiyan God War

Saiyans vs Tsufuru War
That doesn't really answer my question. Those both took place before the main storyline and has very minimal involvement with the story we have been following thus far. The details of both were never meant to be expanded upon, just something akin to a red herring and merely served to introduce a character/form/concept.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:02 pm

soulnova wrote:
ssjgbunnyman wrote:I'm all for entering new territory but DB never struck me as the type of story that would benefit from a war arc. I mean what would it even be about? What would they be fighting for?
The Super Saiyan God War

Saiyans vs Tsufuru War
Not to mention the King Piccolo wars. A war arc can happen in Dragon Ball, it just needs to right type of storytelling and execution.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by fadeddreams5 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:32 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Toriyama wouldn't have written a 'war' storyline even in the 1990s. He doesn't have it in him, it's why he doesn't give the story consequences or illustrate any points.

The only way we'll ever get a 'war' storyline in an official Dragon Ball work is if a director or writer with an actual, concrete vision is brought onto the project and Toriyama has no involvement.
shinmaru wrote:War in DragonBall won't work. Maybe they can make a war story if they rewind time when the Saiya-jins were conquering world's or fighting Freeza before he conquered them. But I don't see more options for war in DragonBall.
War can work. I just feel when some of you guys read that word, you instantly think politics and dramatic bloodshed/loss or something, which DB will obviously never delve deeply into (though should in a saiyan revolution war set before the series, but that's another story). I'm thinking universal invasion. Basically, what you saw in F on a much, much bigger scale. This is an idea I've thought of before, and it works really well for a final saga.

Even Power Rangers had a war...
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fadeddreams5 wrote:A "War Saga" can very, very easily exist in Dragon Ball. I think I can write an entire outline. Just a matter of executing it perfectly, which was the concern of that other user. Hard to expect Toriyama to write a more serious (Saiyan-Cell saga tone and mood) story nowadays. =P
What about Resurrection F? That was pretty dark given the context of the story. I mean, Earth did get destroyed for only the third time ever in the franchise.
Earth getting destroyed is treated as a mild inconvenience nowadays. F does not compared to the first few DBZ sagas in tone or mood. Frieza himself is a non-threat that creates no impact in the story.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by GokuRules987 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:36 pm

ssjjanemba wrote:It would be cool if DBS has a war, just like Naruto and one piece.
Would be cool but where would the war even take place? It would be impossible for them to fight it at earth where even the weakest character in Dragon ball is a Planet buster++. Unless the war was to take place in space.
Any mid tier character should have no problem wiping out solar system while top tiers like beerus and whis are galaxy busters.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:42 pm

A big problem with this line of discussion: the line of thought is that 'war' is only a word for describing battles between armies. Battles are a big part of it, yes, but they are not the only part of what makes a story interesting. Toriyama doesn't even write battles anymore, as evidenced by the script for Fukkatsu no F. If we know Toriyama isn't going to write battle scenes and we know he isn't going to write actual political, social and philosophical reasons for a war...what the heck is the point of it all?
fexus wrote: Again that doesn't have anything to do with the writing. He just doesn't want to do it. The thing here is that we haven't seen him doing anything like that. This makes all your post so far a speculation. I don't care if you want to speculate but trying to make it out like an obvious fact is just out of line.
It's a good thing I never said anything was 100% impossible. If you actually look at my posts you'll see the entire point is that based on a thirty year history it is hugely, highly improbable that such a storyline would ever come from Toriyama, who is being promoted as the person behind the story of Dragon Ball Super. Toriyama is the figurehead Toei Animation has tried to rely on in recent years for their Dragon Ball stories, so it stands to reason the series isn't going to get much more creative on its own. Every comment in this thread is speculation or wild wish-making. My speculation just so happens to rely heavily upon pre-established facts. History exists so we can mine from it wisdom. It would be wise to expect the wheel to keep spinning so long as Toriyama is at the helm. The otherwise wild and aimless speculation isn't going to lead to any sort of satisfying and meaningful discussion. Let's weed out the horse manure so we can start having some actual fun.
fexus wrote:I know you like Naruto and I respect that but making your fanboyism stand out so much just makes me sick.
Making personal attacks--whether baseless or not--shows a tremendous lack of faith in one's ability to convince others of their argument's strength and validity. That being said, don't half-ass your personal attack. If you want to make me feel bad for daring to oppose you put some fuckin' elbow grease into it. Don't just say something, explain it! Pick it apart, how the hell am I suppose to know why I'm a horrible human being and destined to burn in Hell for eternity if you are merely going to say that much? This comment is as half-assed as the explanations in this thread--or rather, lack thereof--as to why the Fourth Great Shinobi War arc in Naruto was bad. Mind you, it has it's faults--plenty of which I'd wager was simply due to JUMP editorial wanting the series to run longer--but it still serves as being an organic part of the series it is from. In contrast, one little comment that wasn't even submitted with a full proposal is now being treated by users in this thread as something actually worthy of discussion despite a sufficient degree of development to even lend credence to its likelihood or usefulness in a non-existent story!

Regarding this supposed 'fanboyism': nobody in their right mind gives a shit about negativity. People like to read positive things. Who listens to the Kanzenshuu Podcast for negativity? Nobody. We listen to it because the hosts are really fuckin' passionate about what they're talking about. If steadfast defense is now a negative I see no reason for anyone to ever discuss anything on the internet again. Hell, I wouldn't even say I've been particularly steadfast in my argument today, either. I've pointed out one or two things regarding a difference in reliance on themes between two different series and used that as the basis for the argument that one of said two series simply would not indulge in a certain type of storyline. That's it. Surface layer-level stuff, really.

Let's try to elevate the discussion here. Right now this discussion has been as satisfying as eating candy for breakfast: horribly empty and unmistakably due to lead to rot of the teeth, stomach, mind and body.

The irony of it all now is I feel like I've said everything I have to say on the subject and am ready to turn the page. :lol:
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by soulnova » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:50 pm

Yeah... given the previous history of the franchise is more likely we could have an "invasion arc" than a "war arc". The problem would be that Freeza's Army was pretty much the top dog of this universe, so the only thing left would be an invasion from another universe.
Check out Journey's End, a short story of Goku and Vegeta's final days. "Time is running out for the last two Saiyans"

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by B » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:57 pm

The big problem with a potential war storyline is that the characters are just too powerful. Goku can pick his nose, flick the snot, and it'll kill half a planet at this point. A series of low-stakes fights don't really serve a purpose, especially when a guy like Toriyama is never going to personalize something like that and make you care. Also, DB ha become linear to a fault. Very rarely is more than one thing going on during an arc.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by LightBing » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:58 pm

A "guerrilla arc " like the Namek arc would be fun. I also can't picture a war arc in DB, just find it hard to work well.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:00 pm

B wrote:The big problem with a potential war storyline is that the characters are just too powerful. Goku can pick his nose, flick the snot, and it'll kill half a planet at this point. A series of low-stakes fights don't really serve a purpose, especially when a guy like Toriyama is never going to personalize something like that and make you care. Also, DB ha become linear to a fault. Very rarely is more than one thing going on during an arc.
I agree with the latter points, there's no denying those. Regarding the former, I do think one could simply ignore those aspects. "These guys are strong, just because!" works well enough if there is an actual character story to tell. The problem is that, like you said, Toriyama doesn't write personalized stories. His characters don't have the emotional depth to feel the sort of things a soldier in a war would. This is why a war arc would never work.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:02 pm

While this is an interesting discussion, it no longer has much to do with official announcements about Dragon Ball Super. Let's consider it wrapped up. Thanks.
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