"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Captain Space » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:46 am

alakazam^ wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:If they will fix the quality later, seems like its obvious why Toei doesn't let anyone stream this then.
Yes, because it's not theirs to stream.
I think they meant legally/officially, in the same way that many of their other anime officially stream on places like Crunchyroll.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:32 pm

Anyone think Toei can write better stories than Toriyama? Though nothing has been confirmed, I think it's fair to assume the large bulk of Super's BoG arc was all fabricated by Toei with BoG as a base, I highly doubt Toriyama gave much input. Though Toei for the most part fails to grasp Toriyama's charm and his characters' personalities, I think they're able to create some better written stories, I'm liking the BoG arc more than BoG so far. Though that can just be because of the run time of the film, but I've had this opinion ever since I saw the Trunks TV Special, that if Toei grabs their hands on some Toriyama material and give their own take on the subject, they can create something, I don't wanna say better, but different, sacrificing some charm for a better written story.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:00 pm

Doctor. wrote:Anyone think Toei can write better stories than Toriyama? Though nothing has been confirmed, I think it's fair to assume the large bulk of Super's BoG arc was all fabricated by Toei with BoG as a base, I highly doubt Toriyama gave much input. Though Toei for the most part fails to grasp Toriyama's charm and his characters' personalities, I think they're able to create some better written stories, I'm liking the BoG arc more than BoG so far. Though that can just be because of the run time of the film, but I've had this opinion ever since I saw the Trunks TV Special, that if Toei grabs their hands on some Toriyama material and give their own take on the subject, they can create something, I don't wanna say better, but different, sacrificing some charm for a better written story.
I understand your gripes. When I see The Bardock and Trunks TV Specials it obvious that there is indeed great writing talent withing Toei. I always thought the main issue with the Toei writing and directing team is that, while they are capable telling a good story, they don't know how to do that while handling the characterization of the cast properly simultaneously like Toriyama can.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:02 pm

None of the scripts for Dragon Ball are written by Toei Animation employees, they're written by freelancer writers.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by soulnova » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:06 pm

JulieYBM wrote:None of the scripts for Dragon Ball are written by Toei Animation employees, they're written by freelancer writers.

I... whaaaat. :shock:

How... I mean... ?

Who was in charge of the Bardock Special then?
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:19 pm

Toei sometimes they can do a good job on story telling, but they suck most of the time. Most of GT and most of the older DBZ movies 13 sucked critically speaking.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Araki » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:52 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:Toei sometimes they can do a good job on story telling, but they suck most of the time. Most of GT and most of the older DBZ movies 13 sucked critically speaking.
That's because they need something to use as a basis, which is much easier than coming up with a story from scratch.
For the BoG arc, i also think Toriyama isn't directly involved (his new story ideas, inputs and designs are all for the future U6 arc, i believe), but Toei has:

- the movie
- discarded Toriyama's ideas for the movie
- a bunch of trivia and information absent from the movie but revealed by guidebooks and interviews

Not to mention they know where the story is going, so they can expand on things and add foreshadowing. That's why script-wise it seems like they're doing a good job, but they definitely need Toriyama, or else they would be lost.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:56 pm

The Bardock TV special and movies 12 and 13 were handled with nothing but the source material as the basis, and they ended up fine, great even. Who knows how the original BoG would end up, too.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Chuquita » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:00 pm

I wish we had more info about the original BOG. I'd have liked to have read the script, or at least seen how Gokû was handled in it.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Faustus » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:12 pm

Doctor. wrote:Anyone think Toei can write better stories than Toriyama? Though nothing has been confirmed, I think it's fair to assume the large bulk of Super's BoG arc was all fabricated by Toei with BoG as a base, I highly doubt Toriyama gave much input. Though Toei for the most part fails to grasp Toriyama's charm and his characters' personalities, I think they're able to create some better written stories, I'm liking the BoG arc more than BoG so far. Though that can just be because of the run time of the film, but I've had this opinion ever since I saw the Trunks TV Special, that if Toei grabs their hands on some Toriyama material and give their own take on the subject, they can create something, I don't wanna say better, but different, sacrificing some charm for a better written story.
Well, specifically what aspects of the story do you mean? You say Super's version of events handily supplies what it lacks in charm with a "better written story", but "better", like "good" or "bad", is an exceedingly vague descriptor. Care to break it down?

I want to insist on this point of terminology because I've been noting a bit of a tendency lately, both here and elsewhere, to dissociate the particular flavor authors like Toriyama like to inject into their characterization (which you dub "charm") from the larger, and certainly more nebulous, ideal of "good writing" - or at least to draw a distinction where there needn't be. Indeed: when our appreciation of art can so often be entirely visceral, our evaluation of what makes for "good" writing needn't be constrained at every turn by the immediately visible formal qualities of the plotting, as it so often is, to the total exclusion of the more abstract and hard-to-describe properties like "charm" or "flavor" that underlie it.

For evidence of this, as it were, codification of art appreciation: too often I'll stumble on fans of the series admitting despite themselves that Dragon Ball isn't a very good or even that it's a poorly written story, before going on about how they love it anyway for some reason X or Y - at which point what does liking something even mean? When someone claims to enjoy something, what does saying it is "poorly written" do, other than indicate its failure to adhere to some conventional standard or other for "good writing", rather than using their own? A guilty pleasure can only be "guilty" by convention, and convention really has no province in these regions. If you like something, own it and tell us why (and of course this digressive bit isn't addressed to you at all, Doctor.).

After all, isn't Toriyama's natural "charm", as you put it, itself an integral component of his writing, an essential part of what makes his storytelling so compelling, so good? To return to your question (apologies for the above side-ramble; most of it has little to do with your comment at any rate): If Super's rendition does it better in your eyes nevertheless, what are the particulars that you think are improved upon here to the extent that they more than make up for this loss in "charm" - and make for a net increase in overall quality? Along the same lines, in what sense do you find Toei's adaptations "better written"?

(As for me - while I will agree and say that Toei's writers generally do a great job fleshing out the original material with plenty of meaty backstory and not infrequently have managed to do tension better than Toriyama, I'm not sure I'd assign either of those aspects more weight than that "charm" you spoke of, regardless of whether in the context of my own personal enjoyment or as part of a more serious discussion of what is to constitute "quality writing" for this series.)
Last edited by Faustus on Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Beerus-sama » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 pm

Chuquita wrote:I wish we had more info about the original BOG. I'd have liked to have read the script, or at least seen how Gokû was handled in it.
For what I could get from the information that was revealed about it...
That would have been a movie I wouldn't like, not even make me return to the series like Toriyama's BoG did.

That movie was in the line of the Garlick Jr filler and the baby arc of GT where everyone is infected and becomes evil
Goku would have been the only hero like in most of the previous movies (and he would have had a cape and a lot of muscles like Broly? :shock: :? )
Beerus would be just evil without a reason more than because he wants and he would have been a lizard :?

I don't think there's more to be known about it... at least not for me.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Chuquita » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:48 pm

Beerus-sama wrote:
Chuquita wrote:I wish we had more info about the original BOG. I'd have liked to have read the script, or at least seen how Gokû was handled in it.
For what I could get from the information that was revealed about it...
That would have been a movie I wouldn't like, not even make me return to the series like Toriyama's BoG did.

That movie was in the line of the Garlick Jr filler and the baby arc of GT where everyone is infected and becomes evil
Goku would have been the only hero like in most of the previous movies (and he would have had a cape and a lot of muscles like Broly? :shock: :? )
Beerus would be just evil without a reason more than because he wants and he would have been a lizard :?

I don't think there's more to be known about it... at least not for me.
It did seem like a rehash, and OOC. I would've liked to have read it though, to compare it to the BOG we did get. I'm curious about abandoned story ideas and stuff that almost happened. I am happy they brought Toriyama in, because I like how BOG ended up, and ssjg too ( = u = ) , I can't help being curious though, just because of how late in the writing process it seems they were when he came in to rewrite it. I wish all that had been made as extras in the deluxe home release, but maybe they didn't want to; maybe it left a bad taste in the other writer's mouth, who knows.
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by TomTom » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:56 pm

Preview of the next episode.

Image

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Beerus-sama » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:00 pm

Chuquita wrote:
It did seem like a rehash, and OOC. I would've liked to have read it though, to compare it to the BOG we did get. I'm curious about abandoned story ideas and stuff that almost happened. I am happy they brought Toriyama in, because I like how BOG ended up, and ssjg too ( = u = ) , I can't help being curious though, just because of how late in the writing process it seems they were when he came in to rewrite it. I wish all that had been made as extras in the deluxe home release, but maybe they didn't want to; maybe it left a bad taste in the other writer's mouth, who knows.
I imagine they just had some sketches about the characters (like Goku SSG and Beerus) and the summary of how the story would have gone (the one that was given to Toriyama I suppose).
But I don't think there's more to it than what we have been told...
TomTom wrote:Preview of the next episode.
Do I read something about Vegeta being defeated with one hit? :P
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:06 pm

Faustus wrote:Well, specifically what aspects of the story do you mean? You say Super's version of events handily supplies what it lacks in charm with a "better written story", but "better", like "good" or "bad", is an exceedingly vague descriptor. Care to break it down?

I want to insist on this point of terminology because I've been noting a bit of a tendency lately, both here and elsewhere, to dissociate the particular flavor authors like Toriyama like to inject into their characterization (which you dub "charm") from the larger, and certainly more nebulous, ideal of "good writing" - or at least to draw a distinction where there needn't be. Indeed: when our appreciation of art can so often be entirely visceral, our evaluation of what makes for "good" writing needn't be constrained at every turn by the immediately visible formal qualities of the plotting, as it so often is, to the total exclusion of the more abstract and hard-to-describe properties like "charm" or "flavor" that underlie it.

For evidence of this, as it were, codification of art appreciation: too often I'll stumble on fans of the series admitting despite themselves that Dragon Ball isn't a very good or even that it's a poorly written story, before going on about how they love it anyway for some reason X or Y - at which point what does liking something even mean? When someone claims to enjoy something, what does saying it is "poorly written" do, other than indicate its failure to adhere to some conventional standard or other for "good writing", rather than using your own? A guilty pleasure can only be "guilty" by convention, and convention really has no province in these regions. If you like something, own it and tell us why (and of course this digressive bit isn't addressed to you at all, Doctor.).

After all, isn't Toriyama's natural "charm", as you put it, itself an integral component of his writing, an essential part of what makes his storytelling so compelling, so good? To return, then, to your question (apologies for the above side-ramble; most of it has little to do with your comment at any rate): If Super's rendition does it better in your eyes nevertheless, what are the particulars that you think are improved upon here to the extent that they more than make up for this loss in "charm" - and make for a net increase in overall quality? Along the same lines, in what sense do you find Toei's adaptations "better written"?

(As for me - while I will agree and say that Toei's writers generally do a great job fleshing out the original material with plenty of meaty backstory and not infrequently do tension better than Toriyama, I'm not sure I'd assign either of those aspects more weight than that "charm" you spoke of, regardless of whether in the context of my own personal enjoyment or as part of a more serious discussion of what constitutes "quality writing" for this series.)

I seem to have used the wrong terms and immediately regretted it instantly, as you can see when I refrain from using the word "better" and label Toei's work as "different" right at the end of my post. It seems that Toei takes far more time going into the specifics, of developing characters and producing meaningful and well-thought out stories. While Toriyama's main focus is on producing a fun and entertaining story children can enjoy. I regret calling Toei's works better written because they're almost so different that a comparison is impossible, but I assume you understand where I'm getting at, no?

And I do not necessarily think that liking something implies that you have to necessarily think it's good, either. Quality is not objective, certainly, but everyone has certain standards. One may not find Majin Boo, for instance, a character particularly compelling or deep, yet they may prefer him to, say, Hamlet, due to the fact that they may really enjoy Boo's rampages and comedic scenes far more than they enjoy Hamlet's long monologues about life.

What I feel Toei's writers lack are a good grasp on what makes Toriyama's characters, well, Toriyama's. And that's impossible to do, really, the author is the only person who knows their characters perfectly, and that's why Toei lacks that certain charm that Toriyama's works inherently possess. But this doesn't mean a writer can't take those characters and put them in a scenario that tries to convey a message, that tries to add depth and substance to the situation at hand and to the characters that are a part of it, which Toriyama's own stories rarely try to do. I find that this is what I'd classify as a better written story, even if it comes at a cost.

(Now of course this doesn't mean that just because a writer tries to add depth to their story, that it will be inherently superior to something that doesn't. There are a variety of other factors in play. And this is, of course, subjective, as is almost everything regarding literature).

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:14 pm

soulnova wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:None of the scripts for Dragon Ball are written by Toei Animation employees, they're written by freelancer writers.

I... whaaaat. :shock:

How... I mean... ?

Who was in charge of the Bardock Special then?
This is how everything works in the Japanese animation industry. The producer or series director bring on a writer for series composition (series kousei) to help turn any ideas they have into a fleshed out story. That writer then brings in other writers to help turn these plot ideas into scripts. It's rare an animation studio has an 'in-house' writer. Writers get paid more money than animators and studios can barely afford animators. Even the massive Toei Animation only has a combined 569 employees.

Koyama Takao and Sumisawa Katsuyuki wrote the Bardock special. Koyama was in charge of series composition for Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z and also personally wrote the first thirteen Dragon Ball Z films. Koyama's son, Makoto, wrote Episode of Bardock and also writes for Dragon Ball Super.

One example of a freelance writer working for two separate studios at once: Tomioka Atsuhiro has been in charge of series composition for Pocket Monster since Diamond & Pearl began in 2006. In 2013 Tomioka also provided series composition for the Toei cartoon Tanken Driland: Sen'nen no Mahou under Series Director Fukuzawa Toshinori. When Fukuzawa became series director of One Piece Tomioka Atsuhiro began providing scripts, although the series composition is still handled by Uesaka Hirohiko. Tomioka also provides scripts for Fairy Tail, produced by A-1 Pictures and Satelight and later Bridge.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Chuquita » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:16 pm

TomTom wrote:Preview of the next episode.

Image
I'm happy they're still doing these. From what I can read it doesn't look like there's anything outside of them explaining Vegeta's fight with Beerus and the Oolong rock-paper-scissors part (meaning that Gokû probably doesn't show up until the very last scene in the episode).
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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by irreality » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:45 pm

Beerus-sama wrote: Do I read something about Vegeta being defeated with one hit? :P
That is basically what I'm reading.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:02 pm

Now, after the whole "Vegeta will turn SS3 against Beerus!" is over, get ready for the next hot topic in the next arc... "Gohan will turn Ultimate against Freeza!". :lol:
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Official Announcement Thread & Discussion

Post by Ushabtis » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:36 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:"Gohan will turn Ultimate against Freeza!"
well....will gohan do anything semi important? that is the question
Jaco the Super Elite with The Great Saiyaman fighting crime for a spin-off series. Make it happen Toriyama

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