"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Noah]

Recent image of Toriyama taken this month. He definitely loves himself some tracksuits.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Oh my god!

He looks so nice without his gas mask

[JulieYBM]

Recent image of Toriyama taken this month. He definitely loves himself some tracksuits.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Oh, wow, an exclusive photo of the last time Toriyama ever took out his garbage!

[Chuquita]

That photo is so opposite day. Toriyama's face is visible, but the face of the person interviewing him is obscured.

[perucho1990]

Man, he is aging fast, now its more understandable the current quality of the ToP and overusing Goku, he shouldve followed Arakis path and wouldve reminded young forever tbh.

[YonedgeHP]

Man, he is aging fast, now its more understandable the current quality of the ToP and overusing Goku.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Alruneia]

Man, he is aging fast, now its more understandable the current quality of the ToP and overusing Goku, he shouldve followed Arakis path and wouldve reminded young forever tbh.

You mean Hirohiko Araki? Well, unlike him, Toriyama isn't a Hamon breather, so he doesn't get that extended youth. jk we all know Araki just forgot to age

[alakazam^]

Recent image of Toriyama taken this month. He definitely loves himself some tracksuits.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's both hilarious and sad that they show Toriyama's face but not the reporter's.

[Noah]

Man, he is aging fast, now its more understandable the current quality of the ToP and overusing Goku, he shouldve followed Arakis path and wouldve reminded young forever tbh.

Really? Cause I would say he don't look like a 60+ years old man, sure the pic is black and white, but still.

[HeroR]

Everyone in Dragon Ball plays the butt monkey and comic relief role. Beerus is the God of Destruction, and had more than a few comic relief/butt monkey moments. The same with Goku who is the main character. So Vegeta being humiliated and embarrass isn't limited to him. Yes, there are characters like Krillin and Yamcha who is mostly there to be funny and to be humiliated, but it isn't the show being mean spirited.

Again I already said every character has gags used against them including Vegeta. But there is a difference when a scene is meant to be comedy and it’s not. And this arc while having comedy moments is meant to be more dramatic. So do I think that Vegeta’s loss is going to be comedy well no I don’t.

His purpose is to be the eternal loser to Goku, as in as Toppo put it 'second fiddle'. The reason why he's a loser here compared to say Piccolo and Tien, is that Vegeta still takes his rivalry with Goku seriously while Piccolo and Tien really don't, despite still training to surpassed Goku one day. In other words, Vegeta will remain the eternal loser to Goku as long as his development depends on Goku and he will stopped being the eternal loser when his development stops being depending on Goku like Piccolo or even Tien. Even Whis points out that Vegeta is too obsessed with Goku and it's holding him back.

Goku's development and story isn't depended on Vegeta. Vegeta could die tomorrow and it wouldn't really effect Goku.

Of course Goku’s development and story isn’t dependent on Vegeta. That is your argument? Goku is the main fricking character of the story. The plot revolves around him.

Vegeta being centered around Goku is actually what keeps him relevant to the story. Since when has Tien been relevant?

Piccolo’s relevance is actually tied more to Gohan than Goku. And while I know some fans don’t like that, the connections between characters is what keeps their importance in the story.

Vegeta trying to surpass Goku has actually made him stronger. Perhaps if he stopped trying to surpass Goku he would actually surpass him. But as the story is never going to go there Vegeta being one or two steps behind Goku is not a bad thing to me. And as it is he is much closer to Goku than Piccolo or especially Tien.

And Goku would certainly care if Vegeta died just like he would care if any of his friends died. If you think Vegeta is not important to Goku then you are wrong.

All the writer have written Vegeta as arrogance and if he overestimate himself and get rings out, that hurts his team since this tournament is won by numbers. In other words, he put his team in danger in 112 when he tried to challenged Jiren, so U7 should be thankful that Toppo stopped him. Showing that he cares doesn't mean he isn't repeating the same mistakes that screws him over, so I am not sure why Vegeta fans keep putting these two things together.

So how exactly is Goku fighting Jiren any different and not putting the team in danger as you say? Vegeta just wants to fight the strongest like Goku does.

Apparently it is okay for Goku to challenge someone stronger than him this early in the tournament but not Vegeta. And that just means Vegeta needs to be embarrassed to show his place?

Goku only has the chance Vegeta doesn’t because Goku is the main character. But Vegeta isn’t supposed to know that.

And Vegeta knows exactly how strong Jiren and Goku are so he isn’t challenging him blind. I am not saying it would be the smartest move but Vegeta is also Saiyajin & wants to fight the strongest & give it his all. He can’t help himself.

And while Vegeta may be arrogant in his words there are moments throughout the arc that shows he cares more than he lets on (Cabba, Roshi) so this arc may not choose to focus on his words but his actions. I 100% think he will lose this arc but I think he will do good before he does. You are saying the fact that he cares is not important but I disagree. It shows there is something behind Vegeta’s facade.

It isn't 'bad writing' as you put it that the fans think Vegeta will meet a humiliating end. They're just going by Vegeta's record that he tends to get a crushing defeat at least once every story arc.

Except in Super he hasn’t gotten a crushing defeat in every storyline so you are going by things that happened in Z and they weren’t meant just humiliate but to humble. It’s part of character development. That’s good writing. Just losing to embarras a character is not.

Even when he lost against Hit which was to show Hit’s power. He was upset by it but Hit praised Vegeta’s tenacity. So even then it wasn’t meant as strictly a humiliating defeat.

I wasn't talking about being relevant. I was talking about how a character is presented and how their development is halted when they're depended on another character. Goku was just an example since Vegeta is depended on Goku, but Goku isn't depended on Vegeta. I also used Piccolo who was also once a former rival to Goku who stopped being depended on Goku for his character. Granted, he moved on to Gohan in a way, but he didn't become depended on Gohan until Super.

Vegeta trying to surpassed Goku made his physically stronger, but weaker as a character since he's wholly depended on Goku for growth. And me saying that Vegeta dying wouldn't affect Goku, I was talking on a development level, not on a personal level.

Jiren came to Goku in 109. Before then, he was fighting Rib not actively hunting down to fight Jiren and while he knew Jiren was strong, he had clue that Jiren would be that strong. After Jiren defeated him, Goku didn't challenged Jiren again even when salty about the burn Jiren gave him. That is nothing like Vegeta trying to challenged Jiren despite seeing and knowing his power. There is no comparison between Goku and Vegeta here.

Vegeta can help himself since he knew where he stood next to Freeza and stood away from him until Freeza found him. The same with Perfect Cell after he realized how far above Cell was to him and he only attack Cell in a blind rage. He also knew his place better than anyone against Beerus. So the 'he can’t help himself' is, no offense, utter nonsense.

Battle of Gods, he got a crushing defeat by Beerus even after he raged. In Resurrection 'F', Freeza outright killed him and he's only saved thanks to Goku and Whis. Champa Saga, Hit wasted him without him even touching the guy. In the Future Trunks Saga, he got impaled by Black and called a warm up. Even if Vegeta showed Hit's strength and Hit gave him some praise, he still got crushed like a bug.

[emperior]

Recent image of Toriyama taken this month. He definitely loves himself some tracksuits.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

He is looking good. It has been a long time since we last saw a picture of him, hasn't it?
I'm quite sure they took and published that picture of him without his consent. By the way, if I had to interview Toriyama while he is getting rid of his garbage, I would ask him something about Dragon Ball, maybe some anticipation on Super's next arc

[SansrivaaL]

That reporter be asking the wrong questions hence they hide her face! ask about the damn current DBS arc! not that paradise stuff.
Kidding aside, Toriyama looks good rocking that tracksuit.

[Kinokima]

I wasn't talking about being relevant. I was talking about how a character is presented and how their development is halted when they're depended on another character. Goku was just an example since Vegeta is depended on Goku, but Goku isn't depended on Vegeta. I also used Piccolo who was also once a former rival to Goku who stopped being depended on Goku for his character. Granted, he moved on to Gohan in a way, but he didn't become depended on Gohan until Super.

I don't see how Vegeta's development is halted because he wants to surpass Goku. If anything Vegeta (with the exception of maybe this arc) has been the deuteragonist throughout Super. So from a development standpoint being connected to Goku is the best possible path for Vegeta as a character. How exactly have the other characters developed now that they moved on?

And seriously if he wasn't trying to surpass Goku and just wanted to get stronger for his own sake (like pretty much every other character in Dragon Ball) where would that leave him? He would still never ever be stronger than Goku who is the strongest character by virtue of being the main character. He would be in the exact same place he is now. In fact he may even be weaker since he does seem to gain strength from his rivalry with Goku. And I'd just I'd be missing out on all the Goku/Vegeta interaction I love so much lol.

Vegeta trying to surpassed Goku made his physically stronger, but weaker as a character since he's wholly depended on Goku for growth. And me saying that Vegeta dying wouldn't affect Goku, I was talking on a development level, not on a personal level.

Except that isn't true at all because Vegeta also has strong connections to his family and recently had a new one added with Cabba. Saying Vegeta's character is entirely about Goku and he has no other interactions or development is 100% false.

Jiren came to Goku in 109. Before then, he was fighting Rib not actively hunting down to fight Jiren and while he knew Jiren was strong, he had clue that Jiren would be that strong. After Jiren defeated him, Goku didn't challenged Jiren again even when salty about the burn Jiren gave him. That is nothing like Vegeta trying to challenged Jiren despite seeing and knowing his power. There is no comparison between Goku and Vegeta here.

Last time I checked Goku was out of power and then his fight with the Saiyan girls started. Where exactly would he challenge Jiren again. So you are right it's not the same situation as Vegeta at all. Again Goku challenged Jiren and that is okay but if Vegeta does it. He's delusional.

Battle of Gods, he got a crushing defeat by Beerus even after he raged. In Resurrection 'F', Freeza outright killed him and he's only saved thanks to Goku and Whis. Champa Saga, Hit wasted him without him even touching the guy. In the Future Trunks Saga, he got impaled by Black and called a warm up. Even if Vegeta showed Hit's strength and Hit gave him some praise, he still got crushed like a bug.

But that's just it, He didn't get a crushing defeat against Beerus. You missed the entire point of that scene. Vegeta was the only one to land a hit against Beerus and he didn't need the God Ceremony for that. Vegeta actually beating Beerus would have been completely unrealistic. Even with God Power, Goku couldn't do that.

In the Future Trunks saga, every character couldn't beat Black and Zamasu. He still had moments in that arc like everyone else. And wasn't "embarrased" at all during that arc at least not in comparison with everyone else. Nor did I see where Vegeta was completely defeated because oh no Black called him an appetizer. In fact during that arc Vegeta even said he was fighting for Trunks.

And he wasn't embarrassed against Freeza either. He lost because Freeza was so frustrated that Vegeta was beating him that he destroyed the planet. But Vegeta was clearly stronger than Freeza. That's not what I would call a crushing defeat. And again I would like to see where Vegeta was horribly frustrated at his loss. If anything he was upset that Goku stole the win from him until he found out what Freeza did.

Again none of these moments are "embarrassments" unless losing= embarrassment which seems to be the general consensus on these boards.

And no the whole thing about Perfect Cell is Vegeta DID NOT know how strong Cell would be. Nor did he know how strong the Androids or Buu would be. He could not sense their true power beforehand. He made a false judgement only based on his own power. I am not trying to prove that Vegeta may be stronger than Jiren (I don't think that at all) but it's also entirely not the same situation. Vegeta may be all talk but that doesn't mean he is delusional and not aware of the powers around him (clearly he is because he keeps being distracted by them).

[HeroR]

I wasn't talking about being relevant. I was talking about how a character is presented and how their development is halted when they're depended on another character. Goku was just an example since Vegeta is depended on Goku, but Goku isn't depended on Vegeta. I also used Piccolo who was also once a former rival to Goku who stopped being depended on Goku for his character. Granted, he moved on to Gohan in a way, but he didn't become depended on Gohan until Super.

I don't see how Vegeta's development is halted because he wants to surpass Goku. If anything Vegeta (with the exception of maybe this arc) has been the deuteragonist throughout Super. So from a development standpoint being connected to Goku is the best possible path for Vegeta as a character. How exactly have the other characters developed now that they moved on?

And seriously if he wasn't trying to surpass Goku and just wanted to get stronger for his own sake (like pretty much every other character in Dragon Ball) where would that leave him? He would still never ever be stronger than Goku who is the strongest character by virtue of being the main character. He would be in the exact same place he is now. In fact he may even be weaker since he does seem to gain strength from his rivalry with Goku. And I'd just I'd be missing out on all the Goku/Vegeta interaction I love so much lol.

Vegeta trying to surpassed Goku made his physically stronger, but weaker as a character since he's wholly depended on Goku for growth. And me saying that Vegeta dying wouldn't affect Goku, I was talking on a development level, not on a personal level.

Except that isn't true at all because Vegeta also has strong connections to his family and recently had a new one added with Cabba. Saying Vegeta's character is entirely about Goku and he has no other interactions or development is 100% false.

Jiren came to Goku in 109. Before then, he was fighting Rib not actively hunting down to fight Jiren and while he knew Jiren was strong, he had clue that Jiren would be that strong. After Jiren defeated him, Goku didn't challenged Jiren again even when salty about the burn Jiren gave him. That is nothing like Vegeta trying to challenged Jiren despite seeing and knowing his power. There is no comparison between Goku and Vegeta here.

Last time I checked Goku was out of power and then his fight with the Saiyan girls started. Where exactly would he challenge Jiren again. So you are right it's not the same situation as Vegeta at all. Again Goku challenged Jiren and that is okay but if Vegeta does it. He's delusional.

Battle of Gods, he got a crushing defeat by Beerus even after he raged. In Resurrection 'F', Freeza outright killed him and he's only saved thanks to Goku and Whis. Champa Saga, Hit wasted him without him even touching the guy. In the Future Trunks Saga, he got impaled by Black and called a warm up. Even if Vegeta showed Hit's strength and Hit gave him some praise, he still got crushed like a bug.

But that's just it, He didn't get a crushing defeat against Beerus. You missed the entire point of that scene. Vegeta was the only one to land a hit against Beerus and he didn't need the God Ceremony for that. Vegeta actually beating Beerus would have been completely unrealistic. Even with God Power, Goku couldn't do that.

In the Future Trunks saga, every character couldn't beat Black and Zamasu. He still had moments in that arc like everyone else. And wasn't "embarrased" at all during that arc at least not in comparison with everyone else. Nor did I see where Vegeta was completely defeated because oh no Black called him an appetizer. In fact during that arc Vegeta even said he was fighting for Trunks.

And he wasn't embarrassed against Freeza either. He lost because Freeza was so frustrated that Vegeta was beating him that he destroyed the planet. But Vegeta was clearly stronger than Freeza. That's not what I would call a crushing defeat. And again I would like to see where Vegeta was horribly frustrated at his loss. If anything he was upset that Goku stole the win from him until he found out what Freeza did.

Again none of these moments are "embarrassments" unless losing= embarrassment which seems to be the general consensus on these boards.

And no the whole thing about Perfect Cell is Vegeta DID NOT know how strong Cell would be. Nor did he know how strong the Androids or Buu would be. He could not sense their true power beforehand. He made a false judgement only based on his own power. I am not trying to prove that Vegeta may be stronger than Jiren (I don't think that at all) but it's also entirely not the same situation. Vegeta may be all talk but that doesn't mean he is delusional and not aware of the powers around him (clearly he is because he keeps being distracted by them).

His development is halted because 80% of Vegeta's character is all about surpassing Goku. Yeah he has family that he finally cares about, but most of Vegeta's character and motives centers around Goku. Him being a deuteragonist has nothing to do with the fact that his character is short change by being hooked to the joint by Goku. There are so many things that they could do with Vegeta other than the tired 'eternal rival' to Goku, which forever placed him as the second place loser.

"And seriously if he wasn't trying to surpass Goku and just wanted to get stronger for his own sake (like pretty much every other character in Dragon Ball) where would that leave him?" You just named the biggest problem with Vegeta's character. He has no character or future if he isn't 'trying to surpass Goku'. Even characters who have wants to get stronger for the sake of it like Tien, Piccolo, and Hit have far more character and motive than Vegeta despite them having shorter scene time.

You're not seeing the difference. Goku challenged Jiren before he knew how strong Jiren was. He only knew that he was strong. Vegeta knows exactly how strong Jiren is and saw him beat up his rival who is stronger than him, yet still challenged him. So yes, it makes him delusional, while Goku was just ignorance.

Vegeta's strong connection to his family was more or less dropped after he entered the time chamber. After that, it has mostly been about 'Vegeta-sama' and 'I'm the strongest Saiyans', which almost everyone knows is BS. So yes, most of Vegeta's character is center around Goku with some token mention of his family and the U6 Saiyans.

The Saiyan girls challenged Goku and even then they asked him to teach them Super Saiyan 3. Goku agreed and used them to build back his stamina. He didn't go out looking for a fight or biting off more than he can chew. Even before the Saiyan girls, he didn't try to challenge Jiren again and knew that he stood no chance in his current form. Again, you're purposely missing the point to make circle fit into a square.

He got a rage boost and got smashed by Beerus who, unlike in the movie, didn't even give Vegeta the time of day. So yes, crushing defeat. Doesn't matter if Goku couldn't do it with Super Saiyan God since he also got a crushing defeat.

Your point? Everyone got beat up Black and got crushed. He did get embarrassed since Black never took him seriously and called him a mere warm-up, after he casually impaled him to boot. And when Vegeta said he was fighting for Trunks in round 2, he proceeded not to do anything of note, which is probably worst than getting beating.

He got killed by a weakened Freeza that he has no business dying against. That's even worst than Freeza being stronger than him. He should have won, but instead he got his stupid self killed. It was an utterly pathetic showing, especially after he got on Goku for not taking Whis' advise, yet here he is doing the same thing.

Vegeta got embarrass not because he lost. He embarrass by the way he lost.

Vegeta was a delusional asshole in the Android/Cell and Buu Saga. He was warned several times by Trunks how strong the androids were and how strong Cell would become if he did become perfect. The same with Buu. But instead, Vegeta had to get the big head and think he was the greatest thing in the universe and got his ass kicked. Vegeta was delusional, plain and simple.

[Kinokima]

" You just named the biggest problem with Vegeta's character. He has no character or future if he isn't 'trying to surpass Goku'. Even characters who have wants to get stronger for the sake of it like Tien, Piccolo, and Hit have far more character and motive than Vegeta despite them having shorter scene time.

First of all here this is just nonsense right here. You have not made a single reason why any of these characters are more compelling than Vegeta. If you like Tien, Piccolo, and Hit more than Vegeta fair enough. That is your prerogative. But saying he is a worst character because his motivation is wanting to surpass Goku. What exactly are these characters motivations that makes them so compelling in comparison. For the record it is easy to reduce a character in a single sentence. And there is more to Vegeta's character than just obsessing over Goku.

Vegeta knows exactly how strong Jiren is and saw him beat up his rival who is stronger than him, yet still challenged him. So yes, it makes him delusional, while Goku was just ignorance.

So I guess by your reasoning Vegeta letting Perfect Cell power up was okay because it was just ignorance about his true power. Challenging an opponent when you don't know how strong they are is also a problem. But again Goku gets a free pass because well he's Goku and the main character. The main difference is Goku doesn't brag in the way Vegeta does and is much more carefree which is part of his strength. But otherwise they actually have many similarities.

Vegeta's strong connection to his family was more or less dropped after he entered the time chamber. After that, it has mostly been about 'Vegeta-sama' and 'I'm the strongest Saiyans', which almost everyone knows is BS. So yes, most of Vegeta's character is center around Goku with some token mention of his family and the U6 Saiyans.

After Vegeta entered the time chamber he barely appeared until the tournament started. The tournament is happening over a period of 48 minutes (even though we have to suffer through March apparently). Vegeta's family isn't even there. Does Vegeta need to mention his family every second to show he still cares about them? But you are right Vegeta's strong connection to his family has all been dropped because he is focusing on the fight right in front of him. For the most part the only time we see Vegeta in this arc is short cuts when he is fighting other characters. Is he supposed to get character development every second he appears? When episodes have focused on him like the one with Roshi and the one with Cabba he does get development beyond saying he is going to win the tournament. But I like how you are purposely ignoring that to explain to me what an awful character he has become.

How much character development have all the other characters gotten in this arc in comparison to Vegeta? But you are exactly right only Vegeta remains stagnant.

The Saiyan girls challenged Goku and even then they asked him to teach them Super Saiyan 3. Goku agreed and used them to build back his stamina. He didn't go out looking for a fight or biting off more than he can chew. Even before the Saiyan girls, he didn't try to challenge Jiren again and knew that he stood no chance in his current form. Again, you're purposely missing the point to make circle fit into a square.

Except when he went to fight Jiren he was biting off more than he could chew (except for the fact that he is Goku and of course gets a new power-up). The only reason Goku hasn't challenged Jiren again is because he was out of power. When exactly would Goku even have an opportunity to challenge Jiren again at this point? It's you who are purposely missing the point. It's okay for Goku to challenge strong opponents, even ones stronger than him. But for some reason this is not okay for Vegeta. You don't understand Vegeta, even if he loses he would still want to challenge Jiren. And maybe it was the Goku vs Jiren fight that excited him. It may not be smart but it's not because he's delusional. It's his Saiyajin blood.

He got a rage boost and got smashed by Beerus who, unlike in the movie, didn't even give Vegeta the time of day. So yes, crushing defeat. Doesn't matter if Goku couldn't do it with Super Saiyan God since he also got a crushing defeat.

Your point? Everyone got beat up Black and got crushed. He did get embarrassed since Black never took him seriously and called him a mere warm-up, after he casually impaled him to boot. And when Vegeta said he was fighting for Trunks in round 2, he proceeded not to do anything of note, which is probably worst than getting beating.

He got killed by a weakened Freeza that he has no business dying against. That's even worst than Freeza being stronger than him. He should have won, but instead he got his stupid self killed. It was an utterly pathetic showing, especially after he got on Goku for not taking Whis' advise, yet here he is doing the same thing.

Vegeta got embarrass not because he lost. He embarrass by the way he lost.

Except Vegeta WASN'T embarrassed or upset in any of these cases. You saying he was embarrassed doesn't make it so. It's just you projecting your own feelings on a character when Vegeta moved on & forward from all these fights in Super. He didn't dwell on it. He didn't expend negative energy. Really these losses being embarrassing are just your opinion not what the writing is actually telling us.

Vegeta was a delusional asshole in the Android/Cell and Buu Saga. He was warned several times by Trunks how strong the androids were and how strong Cell would become if he did become perfect. The same with Buu. But instead, Vegeta had to get the big head and think he was the greatest thing in the universe and got his ass kicked. Vegeta was delusional, plain and simple.

Vegeta was going through character growth in these arcs. Again him wanting to challenge Jiren is not the same thing is just him wanting to test his strength. It's not about him putting others in danger. And while he can cut back on the bragging. Vegeta boasting was not the main problem in the past.

[ArchedThunder]

Man, he is aging fast

He looks pretty damn good for 62, especially considering the stress that his job has given him over the years.

now its more understandable the current quality of the ToP and overusing Goku, he shouldve followed Arakis path and wouldve reminded young forever tbh.

Uh, what?

[HeroR]

" You just named the biggest problem with Vegeta's character. He has no character or future if he isn't 'trying to surpass Goku'. Even characters who have wants to get stronger for the sake of it like Tien, Piccolo, and Hit have far more character and motive than Vegeta despite them having shorter scene time.

First of all here this is just nonsense right here. You have not made a single reason why any of these characters are more compelling than Vegeta. If you like Tien, Piccolo, and Hit more than Vegeta fair enough. That is your prerogative. But saying he is a worst character because his motivation is wanting to surpass Goku. What exactly are these characters motivations that makes them so compelling in comparison. For the record it is easy to reduce a character in a single sentence. And there is more to Vegeta's character than just obsessing over Goku.

Vegeta knows exactly how strong Jiren is and saw him beat up his rival who is stronger than him, yet still challenged him. So yes, it makes him delusional, while Goku was just ignorance.

So I guess by your reasoning Vegeta letting Perfect Cell power up was okay because it was just ignorance about his true power. Challenging an opponent when you don't know how strong they are is also a problem. But again Goku gets a free pass because well he's Goku and the main character. The main difference is Goku doesn't brag in the way Vegeta does and is much more carefree which is part of his strength. But otherwise they actually have many similarities.

Vegeta's strong connection to his family was more or less dropped after he entered the time chamber. After that, it has mostly been about 'Vegeta-sama' and 'I'm the strongest Saiyans', which almost everyone knows is BS. So yes, most of Vegeta's character is center around Goku with some token mention of his family and the U6 Saiyans.

After Vegeta entered the time chamber he barely appeared until the tournament started. The tournament is happening over a period of 48 minutes (even though we have to suffer through March apparently). Vegeta's family isn't even there. Does Vegeta need to mention his family every second to show he still cares about them? But you are right Vegeta's strong connection to his family has all been dropped because he is focusing on the fight right in front of him. For the most part the only time we see Vegeta in this arc is short cuts when he is fighting other characters. Is he supposed to get character development every second he appears? When episodes have focused on him like the one with Roshi and the one with Cabba he does get development beyond saying he is going to win the tournament. But I like how you are purposely ignoring that to explain to me what an awful character he has become.

How much character development have all the other characters gotten in this arc in comparison to Vegeta? But you are exactly right only Vegeta remains stagnant.

The Saiyan girls challenged Goku and even then they asked him to teach them Super Saiyan 3. Goku agreed and used them to build back his stamina. He didn't go out looking for a fight or biting off more than he can chew. Even before the Saiyan girls, he didn't try to challenge Jiren again and knew that he stood no chance in his current form. Again, you're purposely missing the point to make circle fit into a square.

Except when he went to fight Jiren he was biting off more than he could chew (except for the fact that he is Goku and of course gets a new power-up). The only reason Goku hasn't challenged Jiren again is because he was out of power. When exactly would Goku even have an opportunity to challenge Jiren again at this point? It's you who are purposely missing the point. It's okay for Goku to challenge strong opponents, even ones stronger than him. But for some reason this is not okay for Vegeta. You don't understand Vegeta, even if he loses he would still want to challenge Jiren. And maybe it was the Goku vs Jiren fight that excited him. It may not be smart but it's not because he's delusional. It's his Saiyajin blood.

He got a rage boost and got smashed by Beerus who, unlike in the movie, didn't even give Vegeta the time of day. So yes, crushing defeat. Doesn't matter if Goku couldn't do it with Super Saiyan God since he also got a crushing defeat.

Your point? Everyone got beat up Black and got crushed. He did get embarrassed since Black never took him seriously and called him a mere warm-up, after he casually impaled him to boot. And when Vegeta said he was fighting for Trunks in round 2, he proceeded not to do anything of note, which is probably worst than getting beating.

He got killed by a weakened Freeza that he has no business dying against. That's even worst than Freeza being stronger than him. He should have won, but instead he got his stupid self killed. It was an utterly pathetic showing, especially after he got on Goku for not taking Whis' advise, yet here he is doing the same thing.

Vegeta got embarrass not because he lost. He embarrass by the way he lost.

Except Vegeta WASN'T embarrassed or upset in any of these cases. You saying he was embarrassed doesn't make it so. It's just you projecting your own feelings on a character when Vegeta moved on & forward from all these fights in Super. He didn't dwell on it. He didn't expend negative energy. Really these losses being embarrassing are just your opinion not what the writing is actually telling us.

Vegeta was a delusional asshole in the Android/Cell and Buu Saga. He was warned several times by Trunks how strong the androids were and how strong Cell would become if he did become perfect. The same with Buu. But instead, Vegeta had to get the big head and think he was the greatest thing in the universe and got his ass kicked. Vegeta was delusional, plain and simple.

Vegeta was going through character growth in these arcs. Again him wanting to challenge Jiren is not the same thing is just him wanting to test his strength. It's not about him putting others in danger.

Do I really need to make a list why I think Tien, Piccolo, and Hit are more compelling than Vegeta since they’re not bounded to Goku? Well for one, they’re not doing the same song and dance like Vegeta has been doing for 30 years and their relationship with other characters, including Goku, feels more fill out. Vegeta meanwhile feels like he’s stuck in a rut. He was moving out of it in the Future Trunks Saga with all the interaction he had with Future Trunks and even Mai, then he fell right back in. To be blunt, ‘Vegeta-sama’ stick is old and stale and Vegeta needs to move on from Goku. Even Whis agreed since he says Vegeta chasing Goku was actually holding him back.

No, Vegeta was a dumbass against Perfect Cell since he betrayed his allies and let an innocent person get eating, all for the sake of stroking his pride and putting everyone in grave danger. Seriously, how is Goku fighting Jiren even a remote comparison? And again, Jiren challenges Goku in 109, which like Vegeta seeing Jiren’s power and going ‘I can beat that’ or ‘I’m the strongest Saiyan’.

Roshi, Gohan, and Krillin have shown far more developments than Vegeta. It isn’t even a contest. We know Gohan is fighting for his family since he made that clear from the onslaught. Most of Vegeta’s dialogue is about him being #1. Him thinking about his family is mostly fandom at this point. That he wanted to fight with just nine people after Buu fell asleep since ‘he was more than enough’.

Nope, not buying the ‘Saiyan blood’ line since we have seen Vegeta back down from people way stronger than him. So he wouldn’t fight Jiren ‘for the challenge’. Vegeta only like fights he can win and unless he’s holding back a hell of a lot power, he has no business going anywhere near Jiren. And even with Goku, he tried to challenge Jiren once in 101. After Toppo blew him back, he never tried to challenge Jiren again unti Jiren came to him.

Vegeta was clearly embarrassed by his defeat by Freeza, since he got careless, his defeat by Hit, and then Black. No projection here. With Freeza he was so ashamed that he didn’t want to thank Goku, with Hit he was clearly upset and didn’t give Goku any advise on Hit, and on Black was ashamed for letting Black get away with genocide.

As I said, he is indirectly putting others in danger since if he gets ring out then U7 is down a powerful fighter. Vegeta isn’t like Goku who likes to fight win or lose. He’s someone who wants to win and doesn’t take losing well. Vegeta is a false challenge seeker since he only like challenges that he can win. The moment he realizes that he’s behind, he gets angry and careless.

[Xeztin]

Toriyama looks uncomfratble there and froze. Very froze. Looks good to be his age though! I thought all this time tracksuits were a fun design for Tori-bot. Had no idea he actually wore them!

[Lord Beerus]

Recent image of Toriyama taken this month. He definitely loves himself some tracksuits.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Huh. That's pretty neat. Doesn't look bad at all for guy in his 60s.

[The gr]

Since when was the last time we saw toriyama face.

Where is the WSJ preview.

[Kinokima]

Do I really need to make a list why I think Tien, Piccolo, and Hit are more compelling than Vegeta since they’re not bounded to Goku? Well for one, they’re not doing the same song and dance like Vegeta has been doing for 30 years and their relationship with other characters, including Goku, feels more fill out. Vegeta meanwhile feels like he’s stuck in a rut. He was moving out of it in the Future Trunks Saga with all the interaction he had with Future Trunks and even Mai, then he fell right back in. To be blunt, ‘Vegeta-sama’ stick is old and stale and Vegeta needs to move on from Goku. Even Whis agreed since he says Vegeta chasing Goku was actually holding him back.

No you still have not told me what makes them more compelling characters except you don't like Vegeta still wanting to surpass Goku. That is literally the only reason you gave. You ignore the fact that Vegeta wanting to surpass Goku is not a negative thing. He doesn't see Goku as an enemy he has to destroy but as a rival. There is a big difference. But even so Vegeta's entire character development is not tied around whether he would give up on Goku. It's about learning to care about others above himself. Which when push comes to shove he still very much does in this arc.

No, Vegeta was a dumbass against Perfect Cell since he betrayed his allies and let an innocent person get eating, all for the sake of stroking his pride and putting everyone in grave danger. Seriously, how is Goku fighting Jiren even a remote comparison? And again, Jiren challenges Goku in 109, which like Vegeta seeing Jiren’s power and going ‘I can beat that’ or ‘I’m the strongest Saiyan’.

Except I am absolutely NOT saying Goku challenging Jiren is the same as Vegeta challenging Perfect Cell. You are missing the point . What I am saying is Vegeta challenging someone stronger than him is also not the same as the things he did in the Cell saga. And if Vegeta is in the wrong here (which I don't think he is at most I think he isn't being very smart) than you are giving Goku a free pass. I don't think either Vegeta or Goku are in the wrong for god forbid challenging someone stronger than them.

Roshi, Gohan, and Krillin have shown far more developments than Vegeta. It isn’t even a contest. We know Gohan is fighting for his family since he made that clear from the onslaught. Most of Vegeta’s dialogue is about him being #1. Him thinking about his family is mostly fandom at this point. That he wanted to fight with just nine people after Buu fell asleep since ‘he was more than enough’.

Except you ignore any development that Vegeta has gotten to fit your narrative. You are not explaining how these other characters have better development than Vegeta. Vegeta's character development isn't tied to wanting to surpass Goku at all. Just because Vegeta wants to surpass Goku doesn't mean that is the only thing there is about his character. Besides paying attention when Goku is fighting an exceptionally strong opponent, Vegeta has barely mentioned Goku in this arc. And this arc is all about fighting. I am waiting to hear all the amazing character development that every one else (except maybe Roshi) has gotten in this arc so far.

You say Gohan thought of his family. Sure that was a nice moment. How does it have more weight than Vegeta saying he is not going to let the Saiyans disappear? Or being his Tsundere self and jumping into help Goku, Cabba, and Roshi. But these type of character moments have been few and far between in this arc for everyone. But according to you only Vegeta hasn't gotten any development. This is completely false.

Nope, not buying the ‘Saiyan blood’ line since we have seen Vegeta back down from people way stronger than him. So he wouldn’t fight Jiren ‘for the challenge’. Vegeta only like fights he can win and unless he’s holding back a hell of a lot power, he has no business going anywhere near Jiren. And even with Goku, he tried to challenge Jiren once in 101. After Toppo blew him back, he never tried to challenge Jiren again unti Jiren came to him.

So why exactly is Vegeta trying to challenge Jiren then? He either thinks he can win or he just wants to fight this strong opponent that Goku did. But no he is just delusional even though he has shown very clearly he is aware of exactly what is going around him (maybe too aware)

Vegeta was clearly embarrassed by his defeat by Freeza, since he got careless, his defeat by Hit, and then Black. No projection here. With Freeza he was so ashamed that he didn’t want to thank Goku, with Hit he was clearly upset and didn’t give Goku any advise on Hit, and on Black was ashamed for letting Black get away with genocide.

Please you are clearly exaggerating Vegeta's so called embarrassment. He was perfectly fine after all these fights. Vegeta takes losing badly I'll give you that but he wasn't horribly put out by any of these fights and he moved on just fine from all of them.

As I said, he is indirectly putting others in danger since if he gets ring out then U7 is down a powerful fighter. Vegeta isn’t like Goku who likes to fight win or lose. He’s someone who wants to win and doesn’t take losing well. Vegeta is a false challenge seeker since he only like challenges that he can win. The moment he realizes that he’s behind, he gets angry and careless.

But again its okay for Goku to fight stronger opponents. If the only way Vegeta is putting anyone in danger is by fighting opponents stronger than him than he is certainly not the only one doing this. This is completely hypocritical.