"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Vegeta_Sama]

I wish Super would have treated the new forms a bit better. Super Saiyan God was super underutilized , and SS Blue became a joke after it managed to fail every fight it's been in. The fact that it was used in every episode, including ones where it shouldn't have, didn't help either. Now from the look of things, Ultra Instinct is gonna suffer the same fate. Such a shame, they did a good job back in the special at making it look powerful. I don't know about you guys, but the original Super Saiyan transformations still feel more powerful (even though they clearly aren't) and with much more weight behind them. They actually mattered

ss1 and ss2 felt more powerful. ss3 accomplished nothing and since then every new form has ultimately been disappointing other than

UI omen beating kefla and ssb evolution beating toppo but never anything vs a main antagonist

I agree, it's been all going downhill since SS3. I think that Toryiama is thinking too much on how to make the ending unpredictable as opposed to satifying, and that hurts the story a lot imo. Goku defeating Frieza with his new powerup, and Gohan defeating Cell was predictable, but the way is was done made it awesome. They gave us memorable moments of these new forms that stuck with us, as opposed to the new ones. In a couple of years the only memorable moments of SSB I'll remember will be how they used it in the baseball episode, or how the fandom complained for the constant spam of the form. Super Saiyan God had a good concept, but its disappearence made it into a mere powerup

[Artorias]

I am curious how ANYONE can seriously defend this nonsense. What an absolutely TERRIBLE way for this show to end. Just awful. Not only does Goku lose the final fight AGAIN, but they did all this build up for UI and it meant NOTHING in the end. NOTHING. What a waste of everyone's time.

The fact that there are seriously people out there that are willing to defend this trash is baffling. ENOUGH, with the "twist" endings. ENOUGH. Is it too much to ask for the Goku/the heroes to win one arc? Just ONE? Please?

But Goku always wins in the end...right guys? Right? Oh yea, no he doesn't. I don't want to hear anyone repeat this blatantly false statement ever again. You're just objectively incorrect

Oh relax. You’re obviously butthurt that goku won’t win against jiren. Take a chill pill. Maybe the way he loses isn’t so bad.

Why can't you just address what I'm saying rather than just character attacking? I'm not that much of a fanboy. I don't have a problem with Goku losing, it depends on the context. I didn't mind him losing against Beerus. I didn't mind him losing against Hit. I have a problem with him losing here because of the massive build up with him and UI in this tournament. This arc was ABOUT Goku. It all centered on him. You can't just lead us on for MONTHS like this only for it to mean absolutely nothing in the end. That isn't satisfying. It's just insulting. And I'm only this upset because the show KEEPS doing this thing where the heroes just get their asses kicked in the end after a hard fought journey and can't do anything on their own. Nothing ever means anything in this show. Just a bunch of empty set up that always crumbles by the time the credits roll, and there's only so much I can take before I break.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I am curious how ANYONE can seriously defend this nonsense. What an absolutely TERRIBLE way for this show to end. Just awful. Not only does Goku lose the final fight AGAIN, but they did all this build up for UI and it meant NOTHING in the end. NOTHING. What a waste of everyone's time.

The fact that there are seriously people out there that are willing to defend this trash is baffling. ENOUGH, with the "twist" endings. ENOUGH. Is it too much to ask for the Goku/the heroes to win one arc? Just ONE? Please?

But Goku always wins in the end...right guys? Right? Oh yea, no he doesn't. I don't want to hear anyone repeat this blatantly false statement ever again. You're just objectively incorrect

Oh relax. You’re obviously butthurt that goku won’t win against jiren. Take a chill pill. Maybe the way he loses isn’t so bad.

Why can't you just address what I'm saying rather than just character attacking? I'm not that much of a fanboy. I don't have a problem with Goku losing, it depends on the context. I didn't mind him losing against Beerus. I didn't mind him losing against Hit. I have a problem with him losing here because of the massive build up with him and UI in this tournament. This arc was ABOUT Goku. It all centered on him. You can't just lead us on for MONTHS like this only for it to mean absolutely nothing in the end. That isn't satisfying. It's just insulting. And I'm only this upset because the show KEEPS doing this thing where the heroes just get their ass kicked in the end and can't do anything on their own. Nothing ever means anything in this show. Just a bunch of empty set up that always crumbles by the time the credits roll.

Relax. Go outside. Breath in. Breath out. The story rolls how toriyama wants it too. He did not want jiren to be beat by MUI goku, so that’s how it’ll be. It’s just an anime. There’s more important things in life than getting mad at a show not going the direction you wanted it to go. I understand you’re feelings, but there is nothing you can do.

[Artorias]

Oh relax. You’re obviously butthurt that goku won’t win against jiren. Take a chill pill. Maybe the way he loses isn’t so bad.

Why can't you just address what I'm saying rather than just character attacking? I'm not that much of a fanboy. I don't have a problem with Goku losing, it depends on the context. I didn't mind him losing against Beerus. I didn't mind him losing against Hit. I have a problem with him losing here because of the massive build up with him and UI in this tournament. This arc was ABOUT Goku. It all centered on him. You can't just lead us on for MONTHS like this only for it to mean absolutely nothing in the end. That isn't satisfying. It's just insulting. And I'm only this upset because the show KEEPS doing this thing where the heroes just get their ass kicked in the end and can't do anything on their own. Nothing ever means anything in this show. Just a bunch of empty set up that always crumbles by the time the credits roll.

Relax. Go outside. Breath in. Breath out. The story rolls how toriyama wants it too. He did not want jiren to be beat by MUI goku, so that’s how it’ll be. It’s just an anime. There’s more important things in life than getting mad at a show not going the direction you wanted it to go. I understand you’re feelings, but there is nothing you can do.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but this a forum where we talk about an anime. I'm ranting partially because it's fun and interesting, and because I'm passionate about it. I don't actually care in the grand scheme of life, and I feel like that goes without saying. I've just hit my breaking point with a show that I want to love and previously did love, so yea,I felt like I needed to vent. I've just recently really started feeling like my time was being utterly wasted, and this pretty much just capped it off.

[Kataphrut]

As with *EVERYTHING*, I'll wait til I see it's execution until I judge it. If Jiren does win, it should at least be hard-earned, which is what it looks like given what happened in 129 and the preview. It shouldn't be a repeat of 110's ending where Jiren releases more of his power and calmly dispatches Goku.

I am disappointed that Goku won't get the win, but no matter how it goes, people would have complained anyway. Only three guys left in the ring, I would argue this is the *least* predictable outcome of the three, short of any wild pie-in-the-sky thing like Goku and Freeza fusing or them settling things with an impromptu rap battle.

[Artorias]

I am curious how ANYONE can seriously defend this nonsense. What an absolutely TERRIBLE way for this show to end. Just awful. Not only does Goku lose the final fight AGAIN, but they did all this build up for UI and it meant NOTHING in the end. NOTHING. What a waste of everyone's time.

The fact that there are seriously people out there that are willing to defend this trash is baffling. ENOUGH, with the "twist" endings. ENOUGH. Is it too much to ask for the Goku/the heroes to win one arc? Just ONE? Please?

But Goku always wins in the end...right guys? Right? Oh yea, no he doesn't. I don't want to hear anyone repeat this blatantly false statement ever again. You're just objectively incorrect

I was gonna say something snarky about your opinion meaning less than shite just like everyone elses, but people would still be butthurt if Goku the Man of Tomorrow won.

Well, obviously my opinion won't change anything and has no real value...but what exactly is the point of you saying that or even being here on this forum? If no one's opinion matters, then why are we all here? What are we all doing, if not sharing our opinions? Isn't that kind of the POINT of all of this?

[Kenneth La Torre]

Why can't you just address what I'm saying rather than just character attacking? I'm not that much of a fanboy. I don't have a problem with Goku losing, it depends on the context. I didn't mind him losing against Beerus. I didn't mind him losing against Hit. I have a problem with him losing here because of the massive build up with him and UI in this tournament. This arc was ABOUT Goku. It all centered on him. You can't just lead us on for MONTHS like this only for it to mean absolutely nothing in the end. That isn't satisfying. It's just insulting. And I'm only this upset because the show KEEPS doing this thing where the heroes just get their ass kicked in the end and can't do anything on their own. Nothing ever means anything in this show. Just a bunch of empty set up that always crumbles by the time the credits roll.

Relax. Go outside. Breath in. Breath out. The story rolls how toriyama wants it too. He did not want jiren to be beat by MUI goku, so that’s how it’ll be. It’s just an anime. There’s more important things in life than getting mad at a show not going the direction you wanted it to go. I understand you’re feelings, but there is nothing you can do.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but this a forum where we talk about an anime. I'm ranting partially because it's fun and interesting, and because I'm passionate about it. I don't actually care in the grand scheme of life, and I feel like that goes without saying. I've just hit my breaking point with a show that I want to love and previously did love, so yea,I felt like I needed to vent. I've just recently really started feeling like my time was being utterly wasted, and this pretty much just capped it off.

I know. But I can tell that from the way you type, it’s actually affecting you mentally (frustration) Lol trust me I know that feeling of when thing don’t go how you wanted it to go.

[Artorias]

Relax. Go outside. Breath in. Breath out. The story rolls how toriyama wants it too. He did not want jiren to be beat by MUI goku, so that’s how it’ll be. It’s just an anime. There’s more important things in life than getting mad at a show not going the direction you wanted it to go. I understand you’re feelings, but there is nothing you can do.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but this a forum where we talk about an anime. I'm ranting partially because it's fun and interesting, and because I'm passionate about it. I don't actually care in the grand scheme of life, and I feel like that goes without saying. I've just hit my breaking point with a show that I want to love and previously did love, so yea,I felt like I needed to vent. I've just recently really started feeling like my time was being utterly wasted, and this pretty much just capped it off.

I know. But I can tell that from the way you type, it’s actually affecting you mentally (frustration) Lol trust me I know that feeling of when thing don’t go how you wanted it to go.

Lmao, the ALL CAPS let you know, eh?

I won't deny I'm frustrated and maybe I went a bit too far, but I think we've all hit that breaking point at some point being part of a fandom, and I just reached mine. I've watched others fall over the years with this show, and I've finally been utterly defeated. GG Super.

I am curious how ANYONE can seriously defend this nonsense. What an absolutely TERRIBLE way for this show to end. Just awful. Not only does Goku lose the final fight AGAIN, but they did all this build up for UI and it meant NOTHING in the end. NOTHING. What a waste of everyone's time.

The fact that there are seriously people out there that are willing to defend this trash is baffling. ENOUGH, with the "twist" endings. ENOUGH. Is it too much to ask for the Goku/the heroes to win one arc? Just ONE? Please?

But Goku always wins in the end...right guys? Right? Oh yea, no he doesn't. I don't want to hear anyone repeat this blatantly false statement ever again. You're just objectively incorrect

Agreed. This time in particular, Goku had EVERYTHING IN THE BAG in order to be able to actually win this time (UI) and yet they still blew it!!!! I seriously do not understand Toriyama and Toei. It’s like they really hate Goku - their own main character!

If Goku was going to win in ANY arc in Super, it would’ve been THIS ONE! With Ultra Instinct fully mastered aswell as the fact that the show is ENDING! Especially for those 2 reasons. But no they had to go and do something totally unexpected again. This is NOT a GAME. This is an actual story that’s being told here. I hate the idea that people always have that there needs to be “plot twists” and how the show should be “unpredictable” or “go against the norms” that’s totally unnecessary bs. The writers shouldn’t opt to play games and mess with our heads. It’s a serious story THAT HAS TO MAKE SENSE. Above anything else “Drama” shouldn’t be allowed to get in the way of that.

Wholeheartedly agree. I just never understood this weird mentality in the fandom of "twist=good" and "predictable=bad". No, sometimes I just want a classic good vs. evil (or antagonist) story, where the heroes actually you know...win. I don't think that's too much to ask.

[ToshioWrites]

Even though Goku is going to fall to jiren ( don't know the whole context). He will still have accomplished his goal from the start of the series and that is reach the level of the GoDs if not pass them up, unfortunately for him , his opponent is beyond that level as well.

[GodVegetto91]

If they want Freeza to remain as the sole survivor so bad, then there are other ways to do it.

They could’ve done one of the following examples.

1. Goku and Jiren double eliminating themselves, though this still causes problems, unless Goku is standing with one feet on a very small rock that breaks and he loses his footing and falls down (he can’t fly in the world of void afterall)

2. A better solution would be (and this still sucks were it not for Freeza’s presence) is if Goku loses his UI form right before Jiren deals the finishing blow! That would be WAYYYY more acceptable than Goku straight-up being overpowered by Jiren in his freaking MASTERED Ultra Instinct state!

These are the only 2 somewhat acceptable and tolerable options for Goku to go out. (Because Freeza, because Freezaaaaa!)

[Artorias]

I can defend it. You have not provided a single argument that explains why this ending is bad. All I see is you not liking the fact Goku didn't get a W, but that doesn't make the ending bad nor does it make the UI look like nothing. Soj ust because UI didn't win, does that mean it's build up ultimately meant nothing? No, it still introduced a very powerful form/technique and it gave Jiren, a mortal stronger than GoDs a run for his money, it was really powerful and unique but in the end he Goku still couldn't win. It doesn't even have to be the form's fault. Goku is currently heavily wounded, so maybe using UI with all that damage is ineffective and may consume his stamina even more or time runs out again, maybe that's why he will lose? Maybe he still needs more training to perfect the complete UI? Just because he reached the complete form of UI doesn't mean he perfected the form itself, just like with SSJ. You don't even know why he lost yet.

But I disagree that him losing to Jiren makes UI lose it's value.

I think it's objectively bad because it's incredibly unsatisfying to watch a character go through an entire arc "mastering" this impressive form, only for it to amount to nothing in the end. To put it bluntly, I think that's a bad story structure that will cause the arc to lose it's impact down the road when we look back, because you realize that all of those moments, all of that build up, all of those interactions meant nothing in the end. There's a reason most of the classic stories in literature, film, etc. all end with some form of the hero's triumph. It's not just a coincidence that traditional story structure dealing with the hero's journey has remained the same for thousands of years. It's because it's effective.

Now, doing a "twist" ending where the hero doesn't win can totally be effective, there's no denying that. My problem is that literally every arc of this show has done this, to the point where it's not a twist at all. The novelty has worn off, and now it's just embarrassing for the characters and annoying for the audience. It's unsatisfying and a buzzkill as a viewer to sit through arc after arc of the good guys just losing over and over.

[VegettoEX]

MODERATION/ADMINISTRATION NOTE:

Unfortunately, as things tend to go surrounding these reveals (but particularly due to this being the end of the show), the worst seems to come out in people.

Account strikes (and perhaps bans if necessary) are actively being issued. Account strikes add up to temporary/permanent bans, which revoke access to the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website. It would be a shame if you could not contribute your thoughts during this special time because of a silly thing like your attitude and behavior being unacceptable.

All would do well to review the community guidelines, which you agreed to (twice) prior to registration. Drive-by posts are unnecessary, and antagonistic/rude behavior toward your fellow fans is unwelcome and will not be tolerated.

[cuartas]

Count me in the camp that want Goku to beat Jiren because he really needs a major victory and it would serve as the most cathartic way to conclude the battle with Jiren.

I know I go on about this, but, Goku's track record in major battles in Super is atrocious:
- Lost to Beerus
- Lost to Freeza (Although Goku technically killed him, it took a literal deus ex machina to do it)
- Beat Botamo
- Lost to Frost (Although that lost was nullified as Frost was disqualified for cheating)
- Forfeited against Hit
- Beat Copy Vegeta
- Beat Present Zamasu
- Fought Goku Black to an indecisive result
- Lost to Future Zamasu
- Lost to Goku Black
- Lost to Merged Zamasu
- Jobbed out to Hit
- Fought Hit again to an indecisive result
- Beat Bergamo
- Fought Toppo to an indecisive result
- Eliminates all of Universe 9 with Vegeta
- Lost to Jiren
- Beat Kefla

And if the spoilers are true, he may be losing to Jiren AGAIN. At least 70% of the battles Goku has been in, he hasn't won. Goku beating Jiren at this stage would actually be a twist.

He didn't beat copy vegeta, It was an even battle until monaka stepped on that thing, so, one less on the list.
Also, I want to point out which of those victories were really epic, only kefla with UI omen, the rest are ridiculous ways to beat them (botamo) and others never shown a real representation of power and epicness (present zamasu).

Pretty ridiculous, this one was the one, the fight he had to win due to what preceeded to come to this moment (vegeta's trust, UI development, #17 death not in vain, whis explaining this was the "definitive" form, kicking Jiren in the ass for using all the people around him to climb to the top, etc).

If people agrees with goku losing because if he wins there's no more build up for him, then they're wrong, there will always be more stronger characters that goku will try to surpass (the rest of the universes warriors that didn't participate in the TOP because they're too "stronk", the angels, their father... hell, even he have to prove he can really beat beerus with that form)

[ankokudaishogun]

Which is why Goku losing is predictable. And we don’t even know that Goku lost because ‘Jiren was too strong’, which is really lousy since it’s like saying Super Saiyan Goku shouldn’t won on Namek.

on Namek the problem wasn't with the Super Saiyan transformation, but with his previous Zenkai. Goku went from a 90k base to 3million, a 30 times power-up.

That said, all their previous opponents were shown as somehow possible to fight: Freeza was forced to transform various times and still got hurt before Super Saiyan. Perfect Cell got seriously hurt by Super Vegeta's Final Flash, and Trunk's Third Stage Super Saiyan was stated being stronger, just too slow and stamina-expensive. With Buu, the main issue was his infinite regeneration and stamina, otherwise he wasn't excessively powerful as Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta managed to keep him busy for a while.
In short, all of them were presented as "beatable"-

Jiren, otherwise, has been basically Perfect Cell vs Namek Goku. Completely, absolutely, totally superior in everything. Faster, stronger and a better fighter. A new transformation was necessary to START fighting him.
For all intents and purposes, his fights vs Jiren have been the equivalent of Goku going from Namek to Super Saiyan 2 in few minutes. And it's bullshit.


So, yeah-

[Husig]

Wow i never tought this would happen, but those spoilers totally killed the hype for me. I mean 129 was just insane, until today the episode was among the all time top 3 episodes of db. Now after i read those spoilers the hype is gone, puffffff, and the episode 129 just became mehh.

[Retan]

I am actually seeing why toei did things the way they did. 1. Make Goku start out as a bad guy to the other universes. 2. Have everyone fight universe 7. 3. Talk repeatedly about the stamina of goku. Bottom line it was all about softening the blow of Goku losing. I'm fine with it actually, goku doesn't want to be the strongest afterall, he just want's to fight strong people. Yes I think this a great endining to super for gokus character development though the next time we see him he'll probably forget it all anyway as he often does.

[Pannaliciour]

I am actually seeing why toei did things the way they did. 1. Make Goku start out as a bad guy to the other universes. 2. Have everyone fight universe 7. 3. Talk repeatedly about the stamina of goku. Bottom line it was all about softening the blow of Goku losing. I'm fine with it actually, goku doesn't want to be the strongest afterall, he just want's to fight strong people. Yes I think this a great endining to super for gokus character development though the next time we see him he'll probably forget it all anyway as he often does.

Yes this, they are trying to find a excuse to have him lose. I think the first Jiren vs Goku was Toei idea. He will however fight Kefla and have UI and Jiren wil pay attention.

[Logania]

I have no problem with Goku losing honestly, it never bothered me because everyone he loses too in Super is from a character that I heavily enjoyed (Beerus, Hit, Black, Zamasu Black) and him having a new form that's been built up to losing doesn't matter to me either honestly if it has a lot of cool moments and fights with it which so far Ultra Instinct has had in spades this entire tournament.

HOWEVER, I do not like Goku losing to Jiren. A boring, bland antagonist that has had really no merit or feeling of a reward in gaining the final battle in Super. All he's done is stand there, watch his comrades get eliminated and talk smack to them when they lose. HE'S supposed to win? I'm supposed to feel content in this shallow wall for Goku to climb over, win? It makes no sense.

Also speaking of him being a wall, his only role in the tournament has been a wall for Goku to overcome to attain new heights of power and they didn't even do that, they sideline the ending of the Arc for a twist like every other arc in this show and it turns bittersweet. I reaaaaaally hope the spoilers are incorrect or at least now its shown at the moment.

[Extreme_kai]

(Moved my post over to this thread) I'm really excited! The new spoilers are somewhat confirming my original theory. I can't wait to see how it plays out, sad it's only crammed into one episode though. I know some people might not agree with me but I think it's a good thing that Goku loses to "The big bad" of this arc in particular. It would make him want to train his UI even more and truly "Master" the form.

Initially, I had a theory that UI Goku would lose to Jiren, leaving only Freeza in the ring for U7. The last few seconds of the tournament would have Freeza getting wailed on mercilessly by Jiren, he'll fight his hardest to stay in the ring. The time limit will end it in a tie leaving the Zeno's and the grand priest to choose a winner. It's still possible that they could look at Freeza's determination and the overall performance of U7 team(17's sacrifice) and give the wish to them instead, but that's up in the air. Either way, Freeza will be the winner of ToP because there would be no reason to have him around this long or bring him back at all If he didn't. I feel like my original way for Freeza to win would give him some redemption in the eyes of his U7 companions, the viewers and most importantly Beerus.

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[Spider-Man]

So Goku lost really dissapointing I wonder how this arc is going to end in two episodes.