"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Legion]

To be honest, my biggest worry is that they'll end up calling on Zeno. That would be the biggest disappointment in the history of Dragon Ball.

I agree. Please no. I'm scared for that friendship nonsense between Goku and Zeno....

Oh, i'm pretty sure that Black is present Zamasu from another timeline. An alternate present.

[Doctor.]

I feel like this arc is going the Boo arc route and it's coming real close to shitting the bed.

[Alruneia]

I feel like this arc is going the Boo arc route and it's coming real close to shitting the bed.

What makes you say that?

[SansrivaaL]

Wouldnt be surprised if they call their fused selves as "The Supreme God"

[Doctor.]

I feel like this arc is going the Boo arc route and it's coming real close to shitting the bed.

What makes you say that?

Well,

[spoiler]Black being present Zamasu, making it a time paradox.

The two Zamasus fusing.

The leaked image of Trunks managing to hurt SSR Black (again)[/spoiler]

[Alruneia]

I feel like this arc is going the Boo arc route and it's coming real close to shitting the bed.

What makes you say that?

Well,

[spoiler]Black being present Zamasu, making it a time paradox.

The two Zamasus fusing.

The leaked image of Trunks managing to hurt SSR Black (again)[/spoiler]

Fair enough. I do agree with you that the arc is walking on a bit of a knife's edge.
We've (well, some of us have) speculated that there might be a causal loop involved, which is the time paradox you're referring to. I have a half-finished chart made to illustrate it, but I didn't expect to need it anymore, since Beerus destroyed Zamasu. So much for that expectation, I suppose.

[ekrolo2]

Well,

[spoiler]Black being present Zamasu, making it a time paradox.

The two Zamasus fusing.

The leaked image of Trunks managing to hurt SSR Black (again)[/spoiler]

*inserts mandatory you haven't seen the episode yet in defense of Dragon Ball comment*

With full sincerity, this time, I agree with you. This Mafuba business should've already been dealt with when their first attempt failed and Trunks getting a rage boost IS total fucking horseshit. He doesn't have Gohan tier potential and he never got Gohan-esque rage boosts so this literally only exists so we can pad everything out a couple more episodes.

[Doctor.]

Honestly, the time paradox part is not defendable at this point. They had so many opportunities to have it make sense and they fucked it over every time. Black being a Zamasu from ANOTHER timeline would have been kinda cheap but at least it would have the timelines all make sense.

I defended Trunks getting a hit on Black in episode 57 because he was off-guard, but at this point it's just ridiculous. He cannot and should not even keep up with the fights, let alone actually hold his own for even a second against Black. Him getting a rage boost is a humungous asspull, if they use that as an explanation. Just give him Super Saiyan Blue like everyone wants already, is that so hard? You're ALREADY turning SSB into a joke by making a SS2 stand up to them, so just give him SSB and be done with it.

The fusion could work depending on the execution. It seems like a terrible concept, but so was the concept of Black, and he worked fine so far, so I'll wait and see for that one.

[ekrolo2]

Honestly, the time paradox part is not defendable at this point. They had so many opportunities to have it make sense and they fucked it over every time. Black being a Zamasu from ANOTHER timeline would have been kinda cheap but at least it would have the timelines all make sense.

I defended Trunks getting a hit on Black in episode 57 because he was off-guard, but at this point it's just ridiculous. He cannot and should not even keep up with the fights, let alone actually hold his own for even a second against Black. Him getting a rage boost is a humungous asspull, if they use that as an explanation. Just give him Super Saiyan Blue like everyone wants already, is that so hard? You're ALREADY turning SSB into a joke by making a SS2 stand up to them, so just give him SSB and be done with it.

The fusion could work depending on the execution. It seems like a terrible concept, but so was the concept of Black, and he worked fine so far, so I'll wait and see for that one.

God forms became a joke when Vegeta completely bypassed the entire process Goku went through and achieved a comparable level of strength just with a few months of training under Whis. This is definitely not a world (or rather level of power) that one would describe as beyond Goku's imagination as it was in the movies.

[Noah]

Guys (and gals, though I don't mean it in a gender specific way), start using the preview button to check your posts before clicking submit. Give them a read through to double check your grammar, and to make sure you aren't posting a chain of broken quotes.

Also, proper editing your quotes avoid unnecessary notifications

Honestly, the time paradox part is not defendable at this point. They had so many opportunities to have it make sense and they fucked it over every time. Black being a Zamasu from ANOTHER timeline would have been kinda cheap but at least it would have the timelines all make sense.

Which opportunities?

[LightBing]

Well,

[spoiler]Black being present Zamasu, making it a time paradox.

The two Zamasus fusing.

The leaked image of Trunks managing to hurt SSR Black (again)[/spoiler]

*inserts mandatory you haven't seen the episode yet in defense of Dragon Ball comment*

With full sincerity, this time, I agree with you. This Mafuba business should've already been dealt with when their first attempt failed and Trunks getting a rage boost IS total fucking horseshit. He doesn't have Gohan tier potential and he never got Gohan-esque rage boosts so this literally only exists so we can pad everything out a couple more episodes.

This time they went to the future to confirm Zamasu's demise. It's a reasonable that they hadn't an actual plan. Honestly expecting them to even inform us of why Trunks got so strong is already a tall order. The anime is an absolutely mess regarding power levels.
We should really wait for the episode(s) to air. Attacking what yet can't defend itself is unfair.

[Alee9977]

Wouldnt be surprised if they call their fused selves as "The Supreme God"

I'm going with "Black Zamasu"

[Doctor.]

Which opportunities?

- Black could have been a Zamasu from a third timeline
- Future Zamasu and Black could have been mad at Goku for something completely different than present Zamasu's motives

[ekrolo2]

This time they went to the future to confirm Zamasu's demise. It's a reasonable that they hadn't an actual plan. Honestly expecting them to even inform us of why Trunks got so strong is already a tall order. The anime is an absolutely mess regarding power levels.
We should really wait for the episode(s) to air. Attacking what yet can't defend itself is unfair.

It's not reasonable when they're acting stupid, and not the Cell arc stupid where it's born from recklessness, for the past few episodes, they're just forgetting basic things they now are true but because Beerus said one thing that changes everything? Trunks himself already said that going back in time doesn't do anything but create another timeline so him and the rest paying any attention to Beerus is moronic to say the least. Plus, Trunks is easily the most pragmatic one of the main cast, if Goku and Vegeta aren't going to have a failsafe, he should be the one to bring such an idea up instead of listening Beerus who didn't even know mortals could time travel until a few days ago.

[HeroR]

Honestly, the time paradox part is not defendable at this point. They had so many opportunities to have it make sense and they fucked it over every time. Black being a Zamasu from ANOTHER timeline would have been kinda cheap but at least it would have the timelines all make sense.

I defended Trunks getting a hit on Black in episode 57 because he was off-guard, but at this point it's just ridiculous. He cannot and should not even keep up with the fights, let alone actually hold his own for even a second against Black. Him getting a rage boost is a humungous asspull, if they use that as an explanation. Just give him Super Saiyan Blue like everyone wants already, is that so hard? You're ALREADY turning SSB into a joke by making a SS2 stand up to them, so just give him SSB and be done with it.

The fusion could work depending on the execution. It seems like a terrible concept, but so was the concept of Black, and he worked fine so far, so I'll wait and see for that one.

We already know that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a peaceful transformation, so Trunks getting it from being angry wouldn't make sense and would be an asspull. Speaking of which, an asspull is when something happens unexpectedly with no real explanation. Since rage boosts have been part of the series since Z and Trunks got one from Bulma being slapped, it wouldn't fit the definition of an asspull.

As for the whole time paradox, since the Time Rings don't work the same way as Trunks' time machine, I don't see why they would follow the same rules as the time machine. The rules of time travel in Dragon Ball were completely based on Trunks' time travel. Even then, the rules were that you can't change the past without creating a new world, which is still true. However, if you changed the past, but then someone goes into the future from that changed world, you don't create a new world. It doesn't goes against anything that was set in the Android/Cell Saga. Only that you can alter the future, most likely because the future isn't set in stone, and if you have Time Rings, you can screw over other timelines' future. But as of now, we don't know what happened.

[TheMikado]

I've been more or less just watching this thread because I don't want to keep being negative, but I've been hanging out in other forums and he general sentiment even from casual viewers is that the arc feels dangerously close to going to completely going down the tube. The general sentiment is that there are plenty of independently great concepts but they seem thrown together and not fully explored and then loosely tied together to maximize the fight sequences instead of allowing proper build up.

Just judging from even the most staunch Super supporters starting to question things I feel like unless there is some brilliant plot point pulling it together a lot of people may be disappointed with the arc to various degrees.

[Cetra]

If Present Zamas still exists because of a bootstrap paradox it is absolutely legitimate anyway. If because of another paradox, then well, yes, they could have thought of better stuff.

It completely contradicts pre-established time travel. Black is a product of Goku angering Zamasu. And Zamasu was angered because Goku came to fight him after Trunks returned to the past. And Trunks returned to the past... because Black exists. This makes no fucking sense. It won't make any fucking sense, because a time paradox in ANY story, not just Dragon Ball, is a huge detriment to the plot structure. That's why parallel timelines exist as a concept in the first place, to avoid shit like this.

Bootstrap paradoxes are perfectly closed paradoxes and not contradictory at all. They live of the logic of a closed cycle. It exists because it exists and there is no problem in this paradox because it has no beginning and no end. It is the only time paradox that actually does make sense.

[LightBing]

This time they went to the future to confirm Zamasu's demise. It's a reasonable that they hadn't an actual plan. Honestly expecting them to even inform us of why Trunks got so strong is already a tall order. The anime is an absolutely mess regarding power levels.
We should really wait for the episode(s) to air. Attacking what yet can't defend itself is unfair.

It's not reasonable when they're acting stupid, and not the Cell arc stupid where it's born from recklessness, for the past few episodes, they're just forgetting basic things they now are true but because Beerus said one thing that changes everything? Trunks himself already said that going back in time doesn't do anything but create another timeline so him and the rest paying any attention to Beerus is moronic to say the least. Plus, Trunks is easily the most pragmatic one of the main cast, if Goku and Vegeta aren't going to have a failsafe, he should be the one to bring such an idea up instead of listening Beerus who didn't even know mortals could time travel until a few days ago.

There's no reason to doubt Beerus at all. He's a God with millions of years, with an attendant who's even wiser and didn't contradicted him. Even when Trunks and Bulma told them their concerns.
Trunks doesn't know about the Mafuba, Goku and Vegeta going with them is already the back up plan. Since it was the original plan.
The characters aren't being idiots, it's arguable they could've stopped and discussed their options a bit longer. It still doesn't undermine anything.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The leaked image of Trunks managing to hurt SSR Black (again)

What leaked image?

[Doctor.]

We already know that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a peaceful transformation, so Trunks getting it from being angry wouldn't make sense and would be an asspull. Speaking of which, an asspull is when something happens unexpectedly with no real explanation. Since rage boosts have been part of the series since Z and Trunks got one from Bulma being slapped, it wouldn't fit the definition of an asspull.

Nobody said anything about Trunks getting Blue through a rage boost. You can get Blue through the ritual and through training, Trunks could have gotten it either way given the amount of time he spent doing absolutely nothing in the present besides moping around, if they actually intended to give him the transformation from the start.

A rage boost isn't an asspull. TRUNKS getting a rage boost IS an asspull, because rage boosts were exclusive to Gohan and Trunks never got one when he has been in situations 10x worse than this one. Vegeta getting a rage boost from Bulma getting slapped is also an asspull and a poorly written moment, so I don't know why you're using it to defend your point.

As for the whole time paradox, since the Time Rings don't work the same way as Trunks' time machine, I don't see why they would follow the same rules as the time machine. The rules of time travel in Dragon Ball were completely based on Trunks' time travel. Even then, the rules were that you can't change the past without creating a new world, which is still true. However, if you changed the past, but then someone goes into the future from that changed world, you don't create a new world. It doesn't goes against anything that was set in the Android/Cell Saga. Only that you can alter the future, most likely because the future isn't set in stone, and if you have Time Rings, you can screw over other timelines' future. But as of now, we don't know what happened.

It completely contradicts pre-established time travel. Black is a product of Goku angering Zamasu. And Zamasu was angered because Goku came to fight him after Trunks returned to the past. And Trunks returned to the past... because Black exists. This makes no fucking sense. It won't make any fucking sense, because a time paradox in ANY story, not just Dragon Ball, is a huge detriment to the plot structure. That's why parallel timelines exist as a concept in the first place, to avoid shit like this.

,