"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[namekiansaiyan]

So apparently the ToP climax will be Goku vs. Jiren, right? Because I hoped for something less predictable (this fight is being hyped since new opening debut), like one of the shadowed figures in U2 to be the real threat in this tournament maybe.

Start of the climax, not specifically the climax... don't give up hope! I think either we will have something re: Angels after the ToP or the mortal stronger than a GoD will show up near the end. Jiren and Goku being the complete end game of the arc is too obvious.

The tournament could just continue with either 1 or both of Jiren and Goku out after their fight. This way no one will have any idea what is going to happen.

The comment stated this is a turning point on the way to the climax.

There are still 4 fighters who we have not seen which are the bugs and the Namekians so they could be the real threat overall.

[LowRyder2005]

Again, Freeza can sense ki, so he would know where Gohan compared to Piccolo and Ginyu was able to gauge where Goku's true power was on Namek, he thought Goku was at 80,000, so he was only 10,000 off the mark. Also, if it was only skill, Piccolo would be the most dangerous since he isn't rusty like Gohan.

Talk about a sudden "u-turn". If you agree that Ginyu can gauge Goku's "true" power without grasping it fully, that's all the more reason to believe others may have done the same with Gohan. Besides, what does skill have to do with anything? It was just a statement that Gohan held inside of him power superior to that of Piccolo. We know that Gohan, at bare minimum, can't output as much as he wants to, so even in that case the statement would not be nearly as contradictory as implied.

The fact remains, Piccolo did get around one-hundred times stronger off scene since even if you say Piccolo was equal or stronger to base form Gohan in Resurrection 'F'.

He still did overall better than Piccolo. So even if the margin is small, base form Gohan was above or equal to Piccolo. Also, Freeza, Tagamo, and Ginyu all acknowledge Gohan as being the strongest despite seeing Piccolo fight. While you can guess if Tagamo knows what he's talking about, Ginyu is very good at guessing someone's power even without sensing ki. He got closed to guess Goku's true power on Namek, outside of the Kaioken. Freeza outright can sense ki, so he should know if Piccolo was above Gohan, especially when he didn't know Gohan could become a Super Saiyan. Also, the fight with Freeza's soldiers is nowhere near as taxing to the Z-Fighters as the movie since they haven't been fighting that long.

That's still a tired and weighted Piccolo who gets owned vs. a Gohan who still literally can't even scratch Tagoma, as seen in the video in case it was needed, so this type of reasoning is again entirely up to debate; same goes for what you think of how physically taxing the Freeza fight was. I also don't see how that's supposed to disprove anything I've said. There's no statement having Piccolo making that kind of gap, and it's not exactly intuitive either.

Using Hit is an error since Hit was purposely holding back so he wouldn't kill Goku and he didn't take Goku seriously. This is in contrast to Tagamo, Ginyu, and Freeza who did take Gohan serious, Tagamo to the point that he killed his own comrade to wipe Gohan out.

... That's the point, actually. What makes you think we should all conclude Tagoma absolutely cannot be, since he immediately says Gohan is a weakling and is barely fighting back?

[HeroR]

Again, Freeza can sense ki, so he would know where Gohan compared to Piccolo and Ginyu was able to gauge where Goku's true power was on Namek, he thought Goku was at 80,000, so he was only 10,000 off the mark. Also, if it was only skill, Piccolo would be the most dangerous since he isn't rusty like Gohan.

Talk about a sudden "u-turn". If you agree that Ginyu can gauge Goku's "true" power without grasping it fully, there's no reason to believe others may have done the same with Gohan. Besides, what does skill have to do with anything? It was just a statement that Gohan held inside of him power superior to that of Piccolo. We know that Gohan, at bare minimum, can't output as much as he wants to, so the statement is again not nearly as contradictory as implied.

The fact remains, Piccolo did get around one-hundred times stronger off scene since even if you say Piccolo was equal or stronger to base form Gohan in Resurrection 'F'.

He still did overall better than Piccolo. So even if the margin is small, base form Gohan was above or equal to Piccolo. Also, Freeza, Tagamo, and Ginyu all acknowledge Gohan as being the strongest despite seeing Piccolo fight. While you can guess if Tagamo knows what he's talking about, Ginyu is very good at guessing someone's power even without sensing ki. He got closed to guess Goku's true power on Namek, outside of the Kaioken. Freeza outright can sense ki, so he should know if Piccolo was above Gohan, especially when he didn't know Gohan could become a Super Saiyan. Also, the fight with Freeza's soldiers is nowhere near as taxing to the Z-Fighters as the movie since they haven't been fighting that long.

That's still a tired and weighted Piccolo who gets owned vs. a Gohan who still literally can't even scratch Tagoma, as seen in the video in case it was needed, so this type of reasoning is again entirely up to debate; same goes for what you think of how physically taxing the Freeza fight was. I also don't see how that's supposed to disprove anything I've said. There's no statement having Piccolo making that kind of gap, and it's not exactly intuitive either.

Using Hit is an error since Hit was purposely holding back so he wouldn't kill Goku and he didn't take Goku seriously. This is in contrast to Tagamo, Ginyu, and Freeza who did take Gohan serious, Tagamo to the point that he killed his own comrade to wipe Gohan out.

... That's the point, actually. What makes you think we should all conclude Tagoma absolutely cannot be, since he immediately says Gohan is a weakling and is barely fighting back?

I said I will drop the power discussion, but I want to clear some things up.

Ginyu was only a little off from Goku's true power. He was less than percentage off, which is within the margin of error. And why would Freeza be off? It also never never said "Gohan held inside of him power superior to that of Piccolo" since none of them knew he could go Super Saiyan. They just called Gohan the strongest/most dangerous. Piccolo wasn't even mentioned.

Weighted Piccolo only gets stronger by a small percentage and he wasn't tired until he got his arm ripped off. Not sure why fans keep treated weightless Piccolo like a giant power leap.

Why would Tagoma purposely hold back when he was trying to kill everyone? We know Hit was holding back by a lot by his performance with Vegeta. There is nothing indicating that Tagoma was holding back, especially by such a large amount. Tagamo also called all the Z-Fighters weaklings. When he no-sold Piccolo's punch he said, 'about what I thought'.

[LowRyder2005]

Ginyu was only a little off from Goku's true power. He was less than percentage off, which is within the margin of error. And why would Freeza be off? It also never never said "Gohan held inside of him power superior to that of Piccolo" since none of them knew he could go Super Saiyan. They just called Gohan the strongest/most dangerous. Piccolo wasn't even mentioned.

Weighted Piccolo only gets stronger by a small percentage and he wasn't tired until he got his arm ripped off. Not sure why fans keep treated weightless Piccolo like a giant power leap.

Let's clarify: I don't actually have many reserves with the subtext being "Super Saiyan Gohan is far above ROF Piccolo" - however strong ROF Piccolo may be in the first place, given that he himself also hadn't really fought for a while - because that's the vibe I got from ROF.

Like I said, though, Gohan thinks he can go Ultimate up until he realizes he can't output as much power as he wants to, not that he doesn't possess it; as confirmed in the 90s episodes, he can still go Ultimate and possesses that power within him all the time. That "dormant" power might have also been what they sensed and can act a perfectly valid alternative explanation, doesn't mean that Gohan could fight using that 100%.

Why would Tagoma purposely hold back when he was trying to kill everyone? We know Hit was holding back by a lot by his performance with Vegeta. There is nothing indicating that Tagoma was holding back, especially by such a large amount. Tagamo also called all the Z-Fighters weaklings. When he no-sold Piccolo's punch he said, 'about what I thought'.

... Because he's actually not really trying to kill anyone?
He can kill Gohan because he literally says base Gohan's power is puny compared to his own. Even if he can't kill Gohan he could nuke everyone else, but he doesn't. Tagoma is toying with the fighters and presumably gets serious only when Super Saiyan Gohan appears, but at that point his hubris can only help him so much.

[JazzMazz]

Ginyu was only a little off from Goku's true power. He was less than percentage off, which is within the margin of error. And why would Freeza be off? It also never never said "Gohan held inside of him power superior to that of Piccolo" since none of them knew he could go Super Saiyan. They just called Gohan the strongest/most dangerous. Piccolo wasn't even mentioned.

Weighted Piccolo only gets stronger by a small percentage and he wasn't tired until he got his arm ripped off. Not sure why fans keep treated weightless Piccolo like a giant power leap.

Let's clarify: I don't actually have many reserves with the subtext being "Super Saiyan Gohan is far above ROF Piccolo" - however strong ROF Piccolo may be in the first place, given that he himself also hadn't really fought for a while - because that's the vibe I got from ROF.

Like I said, though, Gohan thinks he can go Ultimate up until he realizes he can't output as much power as he wants to, not that he doesn't possess it; as confirmed in the 90s episodes, he can still go Ultimate and possesses that power within him all the time. That "dormant" power might have also been what they sensed and can act a perfectly valid alternative explanation, doesn't mean that Gohan could fight using that 100%.

Why would Tagoma purposely hold back when he was trying to kill everyone? We know Hit was holding back by a lot by his performance with Vegeta. There is nothing indicating that Tagoma was holding back, especially by such a large amount. Tagamo also called all the Z-Fighters weaklings. When he no-sold Piccolo's punch he said, 'about what I thought'.

... Because he's actually not really trying to kill anyone?
He can kill Gohan because he literally says base Gohan's power is puny compared to his own. Even if he can't kill Gohan he could nuke everyone else, but he doesn't. Tagoma is toying with the fighters and presumably gets serious only when Super Saiyan Gohan appears, but at that point his hubris can only help him so much.

I think everyone here is forgetting that Tagoma was apparently Gohan "at his best", yet he was still able to be beaten by SS Gohan despite Gohan not training or being anywhere close to his ultimate power.

Consistency isn't something that Super posseses from a power-scaling standpoint, there are any number of instances where characters do things that are either way above or below their apparent constantly changing power level. It's isn't that hard to say that Goku's strength in base and SS has been retconned in order for him to simply fit any situation his in. Otherwise how would you explain Goku in base having trouble with the likes of Basil in #98, who was demonstrably weaker than Fat Buu, while Goku's base is apparently leagues ahead of SS3 Gotenks. Do you catch my drift here?

[Tombstone1988]

Again, Freeza can sense ki, so he would know where Gohan compared to Piccolo and Ginyu was able to gauge where Goku's true power was on Namek, he thought Goku was at 80,000, so he was only 10,000 off the mark. Also, if it was only skill, Piccolo would be the most dangerous since he isn't rusty like Gohan.

Something just occurred to me. One of the major plot points in the Namek Saga was that Freeza couldn't sense ki, hence needing the Ginyu Force to bring a replacement scouter. Now, the ROF arc is the weakest part of my memory when it comes to Super, so does anyone remember if it was stated that Freeza learned how to sense ki? If not, shouldn't he technically not be able to sense it?

[LowRyder2005]

Again, Freeza can sense ki, so he would know where Gohan compared to Piccolo and Ginyu was able to gauge where Goku's true power was on Namek, he thought Goku was at 80,000, so he was only 10,000 off the mark. Also, if it was only skill, Piccolo would be the most dangerous since he isn't rusty like Gohan.

Something just occurred to me. One of the major plot points in the Namek Saga was that Freeza couldn't sense ki, hence needing the Ginyu Force to bring a replacement scouter. Now, the ROF arc is the weakest part of my memory when it comes to Super, so does anyone remember if it was stated that Freeza learned how to sense ki? If not, shouldn't he technically not be able to sense it?

You don't technically have a sudden "I can know sense your ki" dramatic revelation, but Freeza indeed implies he can when he squares off against SSB Goku in ep. 25 ("judging from the energy I'm sensing, I will be the victor").

[Dbzfan94]

You don't technically have a sudden "I can sense your ki"

Vegeta did.

[LowRyder2005]

You don't technically have a sudden "I can sense your ki"quote]

Vegeta did.

Meaning that he says that Freeza learned to sense ki? Must have escaped me. Well, I suppose it's even more clear-cut than needed in that case.

[Dbzfan94]

Meaning that he says that Freeza learned to sense ki? Must have escaped me. Well, I suppose it's even more clear-cut than needed in that case.

Oh no, I just meant that Vegeta randomly said "I can sense ki now" on Namek, so Freeza doing the same thing after training wouldn't really be a stretch.

[HeroR]

... Because he's actually not really trying to kill anyone?
He can kill Gohan because he literally says base Gohan's power is puny compared to his own. Even if he can't kill Gohan he could nuke everyone else, but he doesn't. Tagoma is toying with the fighters and presumably gets serious only when Super Saiyan Gohan appears, but at that point his hubris can only help him so much.

So he said he was going to kill them, but he actually not trying? Also, that was Ginyu that 'presumably gets serious only when Super Saiyan Gohan appears'. Tagoma had ever intention of killing everyone since he ripped Piccolo's arm off and was going to kill him until Gohan stopped him. He didn't get another chance until Gotenks nut cracked him.

[LowRyder2005]

... Because he's actually not really trying to kill anyone?
He can kill Gohan because he literally says base Gohan's power is puny compared to his own. Even if he can't kill Gohan he could nuke everyone else, but he doesn't. Tagoma is toying with the fighters and presumably gets serious only when Super Saiyan Gohan appears, but at that point his hubris can only help him so much.

So he said he was going to kill them, but he actually not trying? Also, that was Ginyu that 'presumably gets serious only when Super Saiyan Gohan appears'. Tagoma had ever intention of killing everyone since he ripped Piccolo's arm off and was going to kill him until Gohan stopped him. He didn't get another chance until Gotenks nut cracked him.

Oh, boy.

No, they both would have killed them, but neither was going to kill them as an immediate, irresistible urge as in the "bloodlusted" sense we're talking about here.
Otherwise Tagoma-Ginyu should by all means kill base Gohan in a single blow because he specifically states that base Gohan is an ant compared to him and base Gohan is hardly giving him a fight in the first place. But the same goes for Tagoma: if his priority was to kill all of them as soon as possible, regardless, he could've ki blasted or smacked to oblivion Roshi, Krillin, Tien or Piccolo, instead of taking his time chivalrously starting off with a one on one fight against Piccolo.

Want an example of someone who's bloodlusted? Freeza after the Genki Dama. Buu after getting out of the ROSAT.
Tagoma and Ginyu are barely fighting back, taking their sweet time boasting how much they're strong and their opponent sucks, enganging in banter and avoiding giving the killing blow to the weakest foes. It's the standard plot-induced stupidity that makes a villain who overpowers the heroes show off until his eventual demise in the most DB-esque possible way.

[HeroR]

Oh, boy.

No, they would have killed them, but neither was going to kill them as an immediate, irresistible urge as in the "bloodlusted" sense you're trying to convey here.
Tagoma-Ginyu should by all means kill Gohan because he specifically states that base Gohan is an ant compared to him and base Gohan is hardly giving him a fight in the first place. But the same goes for Tagoma: if his priority was to kill all of them as soon as possible, regardless, he could've ki blasted or smacked to oblivion Roshi, Krillin, Tien or Piccolo, instead of taking his time chivalrously starting off with a one on one fight against Piccolo.

Want an example of someone who's bloodlusted? Freeza after the Genki Dama. Buu after getting out of the ROSAT.
Tagoma and Ginyu are barely fighting back, taking their sweet time boasting how much they're strong and their opponent sucks, enganging in banter and avoiding giving the killing blow to the weakest foes. It's the standard villain overpowering the heroes and showing off in the most DB-esque possible way.

So you think he was pulling a 50% final form Freeza vs. Goku?

And I was talking about Tagoma, not Ginyu who does enjoy playing around. He didn't play around outside of letting Piccolo hit him, mock him, tore his arm off, and was going to kill him. Before he could do anything else, Gotenks stopped him. And a good example of bloodlusted was Togamo blowing a hole through Gohan through his own comrade.

[BlueBasilisk]

I think everyone here is forgetting that Tagoma was apparently Gohan "at his best", yet he was still able to be beaten by SS Gohan despite Gohan not training or being anywhere close to his ultimate power.

Consistency isn't something that Super posseses from a power-scaling standpoint, there are any number of instances where characters do things that are either way above or below their apparent constantly changing power level. It's isn't that hard to say that Goku's strength in base and SS has been retconned in order for him to simply fit any situation his in. Otherwise how would you explain Goku in base having trouble with the likes of Basil in #98, who was demonstrably weaker than Fat Buu, while Goku's base is apparently leagues ahead of SS3 Gotenks. Do you catch my drift here?

Herms addressed the Tagoma thing recently. The phrasing Gohan uses indicates his best on a particular day rather than lifetime pinnacle. The same wording was used for Krillin in 99. Tagoma is about as strong as RoF Gohan at his best, maybe a bit stronger than he is in base, but he's not as strong as Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan.

[LowRyder2005]

So you think he was pulling a 50% final form Freeza vs. Goku?

And I was talking about Tagoma, not Ginyu who does enjoy playing around. He didn't play around outside of letting Piccolo hit him, mock him, tore his arm off, and was going to kill him. Before he could do anything else, Gotenks stopped him. And a good example of bloodlusted was Togamo blowing a hole through Gohan through his own comrade.

... And I was referencing them both, I think.
Honestly, I'm really trying to understand your point: if Tagoma is bloodlusted he would immediately attack everyone in sight and/or kill the weaklings first, right? Or at least not take his time to talk? Well, he doesn't. "Bloodlusted" obviously means you are so enraged or hellbent to destroy your enemies that you won't think straight and focus only think about the fight. I'm not arguing that he is NOT "serious" to a degree, but it's not like he won't engage in the usual "I'm an evil guy and toot my own horn" nonsense.

Then again, we're getting sidetracked. I mean, why did this entire exchange turn into how serious was the original Tagoma?

Gohan only fights Tagoma-Ginyu, who is obviously toying with him and giving him a free pass at trying his hardest before humbling him, while a somewhat serious Tagoma tears Piccolo's arm off and takes everyone down (and if anything would've killed Gohan, like you yourself pointed). This makes base Gohan trying to hit for a few seconds a Tagoma-Ginyu who doesn't retaliate even less important, because he's technically not even fighting the same person.

[HeroR]

... And I was referencing them both, I think.
Honestly, I'm really trying to understand your point: if Tagoma is bloodlusted he would immediately attack everyone in sight and/or kill the weaklings first, right? Or at least not take his time to talk? Well, he doesn't. "Bloodlusted" obviously means you are so enraged or hellbent to destroy your enemies that you won't think straight and focus only think about the fight. I'm not arguing that he is NOT "serious" to a degree, but it's not like he won't engage in the usual "I'm an evil guy and toot my own horn" nonsense.

Then again, we're getting sidetracked. I mean, why did this entire exchange turn into how serious was the original Tagoma?

Gohan only fights Tagoma-Ginyu, who is obviously toying with him and giving him a free pass at trying his hardest before humbling him, while a somewhat serious Tagoma tears Piccolo's arm off and takes everyone down (and if anything would've killed Gohan, like you yourself pointed). This makes base Gohan trying to hit for a few seconds a Tagoma-Ginyu who doesn't retaliate even less important, because he's technically not even fighting the same person.

So you think Tagamo was holding back because he didn't one-hit kill everyone, despite him ready to kill Piccolo after a short beat down? Goku was bloodlusted against 50% Freeza and didn't kill him despite beating the shit out of him.

Gohan pushed by Tagoma who was ready to kill Piccolo. Which is far better than Piccolo. Also, Ginyu-Tagoma was overall stronger so him holding back would still hit harder than Tagoma.

Herms addressed the Tagoma thing recently. The phrasing Gohan uses indicates his best on a particular day rather than lifetime pinnacle. The same wording was used for Krillin in 99. Tagoma is about as strong as RoF Gohan at his best, maybe a bit stronger than he is in base, but he's not as strong as Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan.

To be clear, that is Herms' interpretation. The actually line is quite vague.

[LowRyder2005]

So you think Tagamo was holding back because he didn't one-hit kill everyone, despite him ready to kill Piccolo after a short beat down? Goku was bloodlusted against 50% Freeza and didn't kill him despite beating the shit out of him.

Gohan pushed by Tagoma who was ready to kill Piccolo. Which is far better than Piccolo. Also, Ginyu-Tagoma was overall stronger so him holding back would still hit harder than Tagoma.

You mean 75% Freeza vs. Super Saiyan Goku or Kaioken * 20 vs. Freeza? Regardless of the example, Goku was definitely "serious" during most if not all of the Freeza fight, but it doesn't mean Freeza surviving his hits is an impossibility, so I don't get the example. An appropriate example would be picturing someone who's bloodlusted and somehow decides "not to immediately kill" a bunch of weaklings he could easily finger-flick to death, which defeats the entire concept of "bloodlust" in the first place. With that being said, neither Tagoma or Tagoma-Ginyu are bloodlusted or fighting with the intent to kill everyone as soon as possible, period.

To quote a more comprehensive definition:

Bloodlust is when a character will begin a fight with their most powerful means of destroying an enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible without morals, or any other character trait that might hold them back, getting in the way.

Tagoma-Ginyu was immediately acknoweldged stronger than usual, but since we're already starting off the premise he held back and was basically a different mind in the same body, the fact that he had to constantly keep his power above the "serious" Tagoma is purely your speculation. No one gives an explicit confirmation that in those thirty seconds Gohan and Ginyu are performing at a level above what everyone has seen; but even if a confirmation that Tagoma-Ginyu's power output being constantly at an all-time high existed, Gohan surviving doesn't mean much when Tagoma is not attacking (let's also not forget that, for the third time, Gohan can't literally do crap to Tagoma-Ginyu).

To be clear, that is Herms' interpretation. The actually line is quite vague.

Since Herms actually makes a point about how it would sound unnatural for a native speaker to think of the phrase as anything else, with the translation being ambiguous while the original is not, I'd trust his judgement if I were you.

[supersaiyan1993]

So apparently the ToP climax will be Goku vs. Jiren, right? Because I hoped for something less predictable (this fight is being hyped since new opening debut), like one of the shadowed figures in U2 to be the real threat in this tournament maybe.

Start of the climax, not specifically the climax... don't give up hope! I think either we will have something re: Angels after the ToP or the mortal stronger than a GoD will show up near the end. Jiren and Goku being the complete end game of the arc is too obvious.

The tournament could just continue with either 1 or both of Jiren and Goku out after their fight. This way no one will have any idea what is going to happen.

The comment stated this is a turning point on the way to the climax.

There are still 4 fighters who we have not seen which are the bugs and the Namekians so they could be the real threat overall.

i mostly agree, goku and jiren will most likely be the strongest fighters in the tournament, but it doesnt mean that they last towards the end. i think goku and jiren will knock each other out the ring whilst a lot of fighters remain like gohan, toppo and hit. i would prefer that and perhaps gohan will get a new transformation which will be finale of the tournament

[HeroR]

So you think Tagamo was holding back because he didn't one-hit kill everyone, despite him ready to kill Piccolo after a short beat down? Goku was bloodlusted against 50% Freeza and didn't kill him despite beating the shit out of him.

Gohan pushed by Tagoma who was ready to kill Piccolo. Which is far better than Piccolo. Also, Ginyu-Tagoma was overall stronger so him holding back would still hit harder than Tagoma.

You mean 75% Freeza vs. Super Saiyan Goku or Kaioken * 20 vs. Freeza? Regardless of the example, Goku was definitely "serious" during most if not all of the Freeza fight, but it doesn't mean Freeza surviving his hits is an impossibility, so I don't get the example. An appropriate example would be picturing someone who's bloodlusted and somehow decides "not to immediately kill" a bunch of weaklings he could easily finger-flick to death, which defeats the entire concept of "bloodlust" in the first place. With that being said, neither Tagoma or Tagoma-Ginyu are bloodlusted or fighting with the intent to kill everyone as soon as possible, period.

To quote a more comprehensive definition:

Bloodlust is when a character will begin a fight with their most powerful means of destroying an enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible without morals, or any other character trait that might hold them back, getting in the way.

Tagoma-Ginyu was immediately acknoweldged stronger than usual, but since we're already starting off the premise he held back and was basically a different mind in the same body, the fact that he had to constantly keep his power above the "serious" Tagoma is purely your speculation. No one gives an explicit confirmation that in those thirty seconds Gohan and Ginyu are performing at a level above what everyone has seen; but even if a confirmation that Tagoma-Ginyu's power output being constantly at an all-time high existed, Gohan surviving doesn't mean much when Tagoma is not attacking (let's also not forget that, for the third time, Gohan can't literally do crap to Tagoma-Ginyu).

To be clear, that is Herms' interpretation. The actually line is quite vague.

Since Herms actually makes a point about how it would sound unnatural for a native speaker to think of the phrase as anything else, with the translation being ambiguous while the original is not, I'd trust his judgement if I were you.

I respect Herms with everything he has done, but Herms do get things wrong too and as I said 'his opinion'. The line is vague and can be read many ways. How you chose to interpret is another thing.

I was taking about Goku first going Super Saiyan and beating Freeza up until his 'I am' speech.

Using bloodlust to say when someone being serious is kind of narrow since you can be serious and not holding back without being bloodlust. In Dragon Ball, being bloodlust means wiping the planet without bothering to fight.

[LowRyder2005]

So you think Tagamo was holding back because he didn't one-hit kill everyone, despite him ready to kill Piccolo after a short beat down? Goku was bloodlusted against 50% Freeza and didn't kill him despite beating the shit out of him.

Gohan pushed by Tagoma who was ready to kill Piccolo. Which is far better than Piccolo. Also, Ginyu-Tagoma was overall stronger so him holding back would still hit harder than Tagoma.

You mean 75% Freeza vs. Super Saiyan Goku or Kaioken * 20 vs. Freeza? Regardless of the example, Goku was definitely "serious" during most if not all of the Freeza fight, but it doesn't mean Freeza surviving his hits is an impossibility, so I don't get the example. An appropriate example would be picturing someone who's bloodlusted and somehow decides "not to immediately kill" a bunch of weaklings he could easily finger-flick to death, which defeats the entire concept of "bloodlust" in the first place. With that being said, neither Tagoma or Tagoma-Ginyu are bloodlusted or fighting with the intent to kill everyone as soon as possible, period.

To quote a more comprehensive definition:

Bloodlust is when a character will begin a fight with their most powerful means of destroying an enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible without morals, or any other character trait that might hold them back, getting in the way.

Tagoma-Ginyu was immediately acknoweldged stronger than usual, but since we're already starting off the premise he held back and was basically a different mind in the same body, the fact that he had to constantly keep his power above the "serious" Tagoma is purely your speculation. No one gives an explicit confirmation that in those thirty seconds Gohan and Ginyu are performing at a level above what everyone has seen; but even if a confirmation that Tagoma-Ginyu's power output being constantly at an all-time high existed, Gohan surviving doesn't mean much when Tagoma is not attacking (let's also not forget that, for the third time, Gohan can't literally do crap to Tagoma-Ginyu).

To be clear, that is Herms' interpretation. The actually line is quite vague.

Since Herms actually makes a point about how it would sound unnatural for a native speaker to think of the phrase as anything else, with the translation being ambiguous while the original is not, I'd trust his judgement if I were you.

I respect Herms with everything he has done, but Herms do get things wrong too and as I said 'his opinion'. The line is vague and can be read many ways. How you chose to interpret is another thing.

I was taking about Goku first going Super Saiyan and beating Freeza up until his 'I am' speech.

Using bloodlust to say when someone being serious is kind of narrow since you can be serious and not holding back without being bloodlust. In Dragon Ball, being bloodlust means wiping the planet without bothering to fight.

*sigh* Sorry, but I have a hard time taking this seriously. It's pretty interesting that, first and foremost, you consider that a translator could be getting wrong something that casually goes against your previously, and arbitrarily ingrained, notion on a given argument.

Anyway, I'll reiterate the concept: Herms expressly made a point about fans and fanslation misintepreting the phrase and proceeded to address the original meaning of the phrasing multiple times to clarify that it couldn't really mean what other people were hastily concluding it meant. Yes, it's his "opinion", but it's not different than the opinion of a teacher correcting a student's mistake. Trying to correct someone who's being informative by saying "oh, it's Herm's opinion" as if the translator in question was just sharing his thoughts on an essay is silly.

You do understand one language doesn't entirely flow like another one and that some implications can or do get lost in translation, right? The point is that the original is unambiguous and that the English rendition was the source of ambiguity. Much later in the show the exact same phrase is translated as "Krillin's in top form today".

Using bloodlust to say when someone being serious is kind of narrow since you can be serious and not holding back without being bloodlust. In Dragon Ball, being bloodlust means wiping the planet without bothering to fight.

"Bloodlust" is a noun and it's the state of mind; "bloodlust-ed" is the adjective. And no, I only used "bloodlusted" to try and make myself clear about what "100% not holding back" really was most of the time. You were saying that Tagoma couldn't have been "holding back" when I referenced Gohan vs. Ginyu being irrelevant, I said "he couldn't have been bloodlusted either since he's not exactly lashing out at anyone", and you later retracted by saying Tagoma-Ginyu was in fact playing around.