ZenkaiBoosts wrote: HeroR wrote:
You're a Vegeta fanboy, so I'm curious why you are happy with Jiren beating Goku?
That means Vegeta's promise meant nothing
It means Vegeta passing on his trust to Goku meant nothing
It means Vegeta's speeches meant nothing
Goku losing to Jiren also DEvalues Vegeta as a character and his motivations/developments during the later part of the arc. Think about that
You arent looking at the bigger picture
You may hate Goku for what ever reason, but this rushed ending not only devalues Goku, but it devalues an entire hyped up new form, and it devalues Vegeta's motivations and character developments.
I don't see how people who claim to be on the ball in regards to criticism, are suddenly ok with this ending
Not to mention that Jiren while struggling against Omen was somehow able to beat MUI Goku just because "he got serious this time"...thats an asspull...yet people complained about Vegeta and Goku? No it was Jiren who ended up being the real mary sue
Well, no one actually saw the ending. Just some brief summery which doesn't tell us everything, especially context.
We don't even know how Jiren won. Maybe Jiren do beat UI into paste after powering up. Maybe Goku's UI runs out at the last second like Vegetto Blue. Maybe Goku slips on a rock and plummets out of the ring or he trips on Freeza's prone body. Maybe that trunk from the 22nd tournament crossover and runs Goku off the stage. I mean, we really don't know.
Spoilers explicitly state Jiren hits Goku point blank with a blast.
So regardless, Jiren does regain the upperhand against MUI Goku, which doesn't seem right.
Regardless of that, It doesnt matter how Jiren wins. Goku is still losing.
Goku is still going to lose despite Goku achieving a hyped up new form that the gods were in awe of.
Despite Goku constantly surpassing his limits, Jiren will one up him by simply "getting serious"
Who knew that all it took, all along, was to just get serious
All it takes to gain the upperhand and then defeat MUI is to just "get serious"
Regardless of "how" it happens (that's really semantics) Goku is still going to lose, which leaves a very sour taste in the mouth of many
As others have mentioned, Goku hasn't had 1 big win yet In Super. Goku was due - and this would've been the perfect opportunity to redeem Goku and end Super on the highest note possible
Instead we get this non sense. Jiren beating Goku is actually the most predictable ending because Goku has lost time and time again in Super. Everyone expected Jiren to win.
Frieza getting the win or being the last one against Jiren is even more predictable because everyone knew Frieza was being saved for this
Goku winning is what would have actually been the unpredictable out come
To all the people who were hoping Goku would finally just get his 1 win in Super, it doesnt matter how Goku ends up losing, the fact is, Goku is going to lose and it's an insanely disappointing predictable ending that entirely shits the bed
Goku always losing has become this shitty trope that gets spammed to death
Super always failed to end an arc in a satisfying way : (
First the terrible ending of the future trunks arc, and now this god awful ending of the tournament of power arc....and the tournament of power one hurts because I was loving everything about it from episodes 110 to 129.
I'm simply no longer hyped for 130 and 131. Theres a small chance I still even watch. And I personally wont care if I dont ever watch 130 and 131 now. I simply move on and don't invest my time into things I am no longer interested in. No anger. Just indifference and ignore. They really shit the bed with MUI Goku, and MUI Goku vs Jiren...and I'm not going to reward Toriyama/Toei for completely ruining it
You're acting like a Goku fanboy. Goku had more than 19 fights in this arc, 3 power ups, overcame the Hakaishins and you still not satisfied? It does not matter if Goku did not beat other DBS enemies, that does not make any difference considering all the excessive prominence that TOEI gave him. In DBZ, he had nothing close to that.
You should complain about the participation of Kuririn, Piccolo and Tenshinhan, not about Goku's only because he will lose.
Winning or losing at the end does not matter taking into account all this highlight that Goku received in this saga.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:- Goku was only defeated by Beerus, not humiliated. Vegeta was literally trampled and psychologically humiliated by Beerus, saying that the prince of the Saiyans was nothing.
- It does not matter if Goku lost the tournament, he gained a new UP in power, overcame Vegeta and overcame the Time Skip of Hitto twice
- Vegeta was not humiliated in this case, but he was still trapped and made all his training useless. Goku lost to Black, but only after beating Black and Zamasu together with a rage boost. After that, he managed to counter an attack of Merged Zamasu alone, something that Vegeta and Trunks put together for some reason did not
- "Was it still useful to clear the field?" These enemies could be defeated by any other U7 member. And I'm talking about the tournament before the final battle. Before that, Vegeta did nothing
- It does not matter if the UI can not be easily accessed by Goku, it's still a power he has and that makes him much stronger than Vegeta
- Goku used all his transformations on Beerus, just to realize all his resources were useless against a GoD, almost destroying him with one blow and he was defeated twice by him in the same arc.
- It matters as Goku main objective is not surpass Vegeta, he fought a strong guy like Hit as able put a good fight, but ended losing due Hit not being able to use his hidden techniques, he was not satisfied about it.
- Useless you say, but you don’t realize if Vegeta didn’t have trained, he would have been killed by Black and then Goku would be left alone to fight the two, powering-up later or not, he still could take revenge on Black and Goku didn’t. As I said before overpowering Merged Zamasu didn’t acomplished much then they having to rely on fusion and fail one more time.
- We don’t know that, even the likes of Tien and Krillin had fall by weaker enemies, Vegeta was just doing his job as in the end we knew that were just a handful of fighters at his level or possibly stronger.
- Goku has to go through some process before activating UI, we don’t know if he will end being able to use it as a normal thing, yet. And yes, Goku is much more stronger than Vegeta, don’t see the issue with that as he’s the protagonist. It doesn’t mean that Vegeta couldn’t unlock UI in the future though.
-Once again, Goku was only easily defeated. Vegeta was humiliated, because in addition to losing easily, Beerus insulted him in various ways and stepped on his head
- No matter if Goku's goal was not to overtake Vegeta, it happened.
- Goku counter attack Merged Zamasu did not help at all? He destroyed his halo and deformed his body, which is somewhat absurd considering that Vegeta and Trunks did nothing
- If we are going to use here the argument '' but Goku is the protagonist '', then this discussion does not make sense and it only reinforces that Goku fans want him to win everything just because he is the protagonist
- I'm not talking about Toppo with his ''Hakaishin transformation'', in the exhibition tournament he had not shown it and Goku was in advantage at the beginning of the fight
- No matter if they were sparring, they were still fights that received whole episodes dedicated to them (with the exception of Goku Vs Slim Boo) and they had great prominence
- I'm not talking about winning or losing, but about having a really important fight
- SSB KK x20 is a new power up, it's something he could not do before but now in the tournament he does
- The fight with Aniraza was team work, but Goku was still present and was very active, unlike Vegeta and Gohan who did almost nothing
- ''Almost'' is a lot, because we're talking about almost eliminating Jiren
- Yes, he overcame the Hakaishins and mastered a technique that even the Gods can not
Do you think Goku having more than 19 fights in this saga (the other sagas in DBZ have had nothing close to that), 3 power ups and much prominence is something '' standard '' for a protagonist? If you see Naruto for example, it is something much more balanced (perhaps taking out the ninja war, and that even so other characters have stood out)
- Me neither, I just don’t think Goku KKx10 + Blue (It wasn’t x20 that time) would be enough to defeat Toppo who was just surprised by his level of power, but we know there’s plenty more to come from him.
- I don’t see nothing much impressive from these fights, some served to him look cool others were just a waste of time.
- I’m talking about winning and losing, we started this whole subject because you could not stand the fact people wanting Goku to win a major battle for the first time after a long while.
- Whatever you say, KKx20 + SSJB just served to be trashed on this arc, specially by Jiren.
- You can argue about characters use, just fine. I just don't agree that Vegeta and Gohan did nothing as the only thing Goku did before the final battle was defeating Kefla. You can say he was responsible for erasing some universes due defeating its last fighters, but it was not all his work alone.
- Again, not talking about “almost” feats, but actual feats and the outcome of his fight against Jiren is yet to come.
- Highly implied so, but still no confirmation of that.
- I still don’t see the issue, it’s not about fights and screentime, but winning and Goku last major win as against Majin Boo with the help of others. He got all these power-ups and prominence you said, but still acomplished nothing, we’re waiting to see this build to pay off. It doesn't matter much if they give 5 transformations to Goku in the same arc if he still loses at end as it makes him look incompetent.
- No matter if you did not see anything impressive in the fight, they did exist and some lasted an entire episode
- This discussion started because Goku fans are not satisfied until he gets all the glory, obfuscating all the other characters
- No one here is talking about the utility of the SSB KK x20, it does not change the fact that it was a new power up
-I did not say Vegeta and Gohan did nothing, but compared to Goku, it's almost nothing. And it's not just because Goku is the protagonist, in DBZ he did not need so much screen time to shine.
- '' Almost '' is still a feat considering that he gave work to Jiren