Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:09 pm

Selfless sacrifice, persistence despite the hopeless odds and camaraderie are among the most common of ethical values DBZ has. A character who does not express those qualities is usually meant to look in a bad light in this particular show. Which is why most people were getting pissed when Vegeta couldn't bring himself to fight Broly and was shitting bricks.
Fighting for the sake of your friends and your values isn't selfless, it's selfish in the true sense, but giving up your life needlessly is most certainly a sacrifice. There's no gain other than BS macho posturing. It would've achieved nothing and wouldn't have been brave at all, it would've been suicidal and reckless. It's not the same as Goku fighting Vegeta or Freeza, it's like Jay Baruchel picking a fight with GSP. Kuririn not fighting them isn't the same as Vegeta being scared to fight Broly, all he kept saying was "we're all doomed." Kuririn, both did something useful and he had an option. Vegeta had zero options, there was no way off that planet. Kuririn giving up his life needlessly would've been truly selfless as it would've shown a complete lack of self. Sometimes retreat is the smart option.
Do you think that Gohan being scared shitless while Nappa was killing off the Z Team left and right made him gain fans? Made people think he was an awesome character?
It made him interesting, it was understandable and it was in character. Plus, from that point forward in that arc it showed growth.
Last edited by ABED on Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Doctor. » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:10 pm

Nickolaidas wrote:Do you think that Gohan being scared shitless while Nappa was killing off the Z Team left and right made him gain fans? Made people think he was an awesome character?
Well, I personally think SSJ2 Gohan, which is for some reason the most popular version of the character, is his worst variant in terms of personality. So, following that logic, I'd have to say I'm more of a fan of the "pussy" Gohan, yes.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:13 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:In Dragon Ball it pretty much is. The stronger you are, the more relevant you are. The strongest are always the most relevant to the plot, while the weaker are not nearly as important.
Bulma: "Hey, remember all those epic fights we had against all those super strong aliens completely that changed the fate of the Earth?"
Mr Satan: "Nope."
Elder Kai: "Nah."
Dende: "No."
Bulma: "Yeah, me neither."

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:16 pm

A big difference between Gohan and Kuririn cowering is that when Gohan did it, it got people killed. He might not have been able to finish Nappa off, but it might have at least slowed Nappa down. Kuririn cowering didn't get anyone killed or hurt. He would've been utterly ineffectual.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Nickolaidas » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:19 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
Nickolaidas wrote:Do you think that Gohan being scared shitless while Nappa was killing off the Z Team left and right made him gain fans? Made people think he was an awesome character?
I see nothing wrong with that. Sure probably not as much as someone who's kicking ass, but a lot of people would sympathize with Gohan there. He's a kid and he's terrified. Piccolo got angry with him, which brought Gohan down further, making him feel like a failure. Vegeta though isn't supposed to be a chicken shit, and in the first Broly movie he cowers and blubbers like a baby.
I'm not saying it's unrealistic, I'm saying it makes him unlikable. Cowardice, while understandable in life, is unappreciated in action series/films/literature. There's a reason the most hated character in the Walking Dead right now is the priest guy - his cowardice constantly gets people killed and will continue to do so. Gohan's actions make sense, but something making sense doesn't mean you have to like it.

Dragon Ball in particular, is bent on presenting heroes fighting battles they can't win and still charge on; Yamcha was owned by Bandage back in DB, yet his burning will to fight and keep going is one of his best moments in the series. Compare that with his attitude in the androids which is summarized to "I'll go, but I'll just watch." Care to read the comments on YouTube about him concerning that line? Not his best moment.

@ABED: Krillin's cowering didn't get anyone killed because the androids didn't *want* to kill anyone. They left them alive so that they could heal and fight again. If the androids fought to kill, no one would have survived. It's the difference in disposition between 17 and Nappa which changed things, not Krillin's cowardice.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:29 pm

But I don't find that unlikable. Gohan was a young inexperienced child. You can't compare a full grown adult to a child in this respect. If Gohan was say even the age he was in the Cell arc, you would have a point, but he's being thrown in the deep end of the pool with little battle experience and at an age where most kid's biggest worry is will their parents buy the toy they want.
@ABED: Krillin's cowering didn't get anyone killed because the androids didn't *want* to kill anyone. They left them alive so that they could heal and fight again. If the androids fought to kill, no one would have survived. It's the difference in disposition between 17 and Nappa which changed things, not Krillin's cowardice.
Not helping your point. What would fighting those people have proven? Kuririn wasn't a coward, he was frightened, but not a coward. He did the right thing. Kuririn didn't know that they didn't want to kill anyone. Is your point really that as long as the cyborgs weren't out to kill then he should've fought?

The fight against Mummy and Yamcha was a lot closer than him and 20. I agree that it's a great moment in DB, but the moment in Z that you're talking about is so different in terms of scale.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:37 pm

Nickolaidas wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
Nickolaidas wrote:Do you think that Gohan being scared shitless while Nappa was killing off the Z Team left and right made him gain fans? Made people think he was an awesome character?
I see nothing wrong with that. Sure probably not as much as someone who's kicking ass, but a lot of people would sympathize with Gohan there. He's a kid and he's terrified. Piccolo got angry with him, which brought Gohan down further, making him feel like a failure. Vegeta though isn't supposed to be a chicken shit, and in the first Broly movie he cowers and blubbers like a baby.
I'm not saying it's unrealistic, I'm saying it makes him unlikable. Cowardice, while understandable in life, is unappreciated in action series/films/literature. There's a reason the most hated character in the Walking Dead right now is the priest guy - his cowardice constantly gets people killed and will continue to do so. Gohan's actions make sense, but something making sense doesn't mean you have to like it.

Dragon Ball in particular, is bent on presenting heroes fighting battles they can't win and still charge on; Yamcha was owned by Bandage back in DB, yet his burning will to fight and keep going is one of his best moments in the series. Compare that with his attitude in the androids which is summarized to "I'll go, but I'll just watch." Care to read the comments on YouTube about him concerning that line? Not his best moment.
Well again it's his first battle. I do see your point and it's true cowardice is looked down upon, though I think that's exactly what the point of the scene was. Gohan screwed up and so he learned and grew from the experience. Though I don't think him hitting Nappa woulda done anything anyways, he'd still have been too weak to do serious damage.

I do see how new people coming into Super probably won't give a shit about characters who can't do anything, because they're irrelevant. For example in a group dynamic, the brains of a team is usually some techie who usually can't do shit beyond working a computer. So even if they have a big part that includes disabling say a security system, most people really won't care. They'll look forward to whoever is going to be fighting and getting in on the action. The computer dork while playing a pivitol role, played a boring role that no person is really gonna think is cool because outside of tech they are weak.

Kinda like how in Dragon Ball we could have some great character moments, but in the end it all boils down to strength. You could have Krillin or Tenshinhan fighting some mooks or having some fun banter, but in the end that could probably just be given to anyone else, and be much improved in the hands of people who move the plot forward.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:43 pm

For example in a group dynamic, the brains of a team is usually some techie who usually can't do shit beyond working a computer. So even if they have a big part that includes disabling say a security system, most people really won't care. They'll look forward to whoever is going to be fighting and getting in on the action. The computer dork while playing a pivitol role, played a boring role that no person is really gonna think is cool because outside of tech they are weak.
It depends, if the tech person has a personality then the audience will care, as in the case of Felicity on Arrow or Chloe on 24 or even Q in the Bond movies. However, if all they do is do tech stuff and deliver exposition, then people won't care.

I would like to see Piccolo become relevant again. He's one of the few characters I can buy keeping pace with the Saiyans. Even if he can't, he can be valuable in a mentorship role like in the Buu arc. Some of my favorite moments in that arc were the moments between he and Gotenks.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Nickolaidas » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:50 pm

ABED wrote:Is your point really that as long as the cyborgs weren't out to kill then he should've fought?
You said a couple of posts above that the difference between Gohan and Krillin cowering was the fact that Gohan's cowering got people killed. I'm just pointing out that the only reason the two scenes played differently was the fact that the androids didn't have Nappa's killer instinct. Krillin fighting or not fighting wouldn't have made any difference in the outcome, but it would have saved some of his ego and pride in the eyes of his fans. He didn't have a chance against Cell as well, yet he was too angry with what he did to #18 to care. That was pretty badass, even if he was KO'd in a flash.

Anyway, we've gone way out of topic with this, so I'll stop.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by dbzfan7 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:52 pm

ABED wrote:
For example in a group dynamic, the brains of a team is usually some techie who usually can't do shit beyond working a computer. So even if they have a big part that includes disabling say a security system, most people really won't care. They'll look forward to whoever is going to be fighting and getting in on the action. The computer dork while playing a pivitol role, played a boring role that no person is really gonna think is cool because outside of tech they are weak.
It depends, if the tech person has a personality then the audience will care, as in the case of Felicity on Arrow or Chloe on 24 or even Q in the Bond movies. However, if all they do is do tech stuff and deliver exposition, then people won't care.
Depends on the personality, and how much they matter to the story. Despite not getting in on the action, if they have an interesting backstory, or they have a connection to the plot that's not just helping out, then they're more liked an interesting. Like Otacon from MGS. Though yeah if they just do tech stuff and spout exposition, who really cares?
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:56 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
ABED wrote:
For example in a group dynamic, the brains of a team is usually some techie who usually can't do shit beyond working a computer. So even if they have a big part that includes disabling say a security system, most people really won't care. They'll look forward to whoever is going to be fighting and getting in on the action. The computer dork while playing a pivitol role, played a boring role that no person is really gonna think is cool because outside of tech they are weak.
It depends, if the tech person has a personality then the audience will care, as in the case of Felicity on Arrow or Chloe on 24 or even Q in the Bond movies. However, if all they do is do tech stuff and deliver exposition, then people won't care.
Depends on the personality, and how much they matter to the story. Despite not getting in on the action, if they have an interesting backstory, or they have a connection to the plot that's not just helping out, then they're more liked an interesting. Like Otacon from MGS. Though yeah if they just do tech stuff and spout exposition, who really cares?
That goes without saying, I'm referring to an interesting personality. Marshall on Alias had a fun way of delivering exposition and was a geeky everyman. He didn't need an interesting backstory, he simply wasn't bland. Much of it is also what the actor brings to the role and not necessarily what is on the page.
Krillin fighting or not fighting wouldn't have made any difference in the outcome, but it would have saved some of his ego and pride in the eyes of his fans. He didn't have a chance against Cell as well, yet he was too angry with what he did to #18 to care. That was pretty badass, even if he was KO'd in a flash.
Only to those fans that have some macho misconception about pride and bravery. Kuririn's angery attack against Cell wasn't about being badass, nor would I call it a badass moment. It was Kuririn foolishly trying to fight the thing that killed the girl he had feelings for. I think it's a good character moment, but it's ultimately foolish which is the point. He's so blinded by rage he lets his good sense go and fights a hopeless battle.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by soulnova » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:11 pm

ABED wrote:
Krillin fighting or not fighting wouldn't have made any difference in the outcome, but it would have saved some of his ego and pride in the eyes of his fans. He didn't have a chance against Cell as well, yet he was too angry with what he did to #18 to care. That was pretty badass, even if he was KO'd in a flash.
Only to those fans that have some macho misconception about pride and bravery. Kuririn's angery attack against Cell wasn't about being badass, nor would I call it a badass moment. It was Kuririn foolishly trying to fight the thing that killed the girl he had feelings for. I think it's a good character moment, but it's ultimately foolish which is the point. He's so blinded by rage he lets his good sense go and fights a hopeless battle.
Indeed.

Trunks was the one foolishly charging without thinking in the heat of the moment, and then he was followed by Piccolo and Ten. Krillin didn't flee or abandoned them; he was simply too shocked to move or think on anything that could help them. If we are going to call anyone a coward, we can start with Yajirobe and leave Krillin and the 5 year old forced-child-warrior alone.
Last edited by soulnova on Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:15 pm

soulnova wrote:
ABED wrote:
Krillin fighting or not fighting wouldn't have made any difference in the outcome, but it would have saved some of his ego and pride in the eyes of his fans. He didn't have a chance against Cell as well, yet he was too angry with what he did to #18 to care. That was pretty badass, even if he was KO'd in a flash.
Only to those fans that have some macho misconception about pride and bravery. Kuririn's angery attack against Cell wasn't about being badass, nor would I call it a badass moment. It was Kuririn foolishly trying to fight the thing that killed the girl he had feelings for. I think it's a good character moment, but it's ultimately foolish which is the point. He's so blinded by rage he lets his good sense go and fights a hopeless battle.
Indeed.

Trunks was the one foolishly charging without thinking in the heat of the moment, and then he was followed by Piccolo and Ten. Krillin didn't flee or abandoned them; he was simply too shocked to move or think on anything that could help them. If we are going to call anyone a coward, we can start with Yajirobe and leave Krillin and the 5 year old forced-child-soldier alone.
Can we not equivocate Gohan with real life child soldiers?
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by soulnova » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:40 pm

ABED wrote: Can we not equivocate Gohan with real life child soldiers?
Sorry! Ok. Didn't mean to offend anyone. Just making a point that Gohan was literally kidnapped and forced to train, fight and put his life at risk against the Saiyans when he was 5. I would have never blamed Gohan for panicking. People tend to forget he had witnessed the murder of his friends, the genocide of the Namekians and almost died at least twice before he turned six.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:45 pm

soulnova wrote:
ABED wrote: Can we not equivocate Gohan with real life child soldiers?
Sorry! Ok. Didn't mean to offend anyone. Just making a point that Gohan was literally kidnapped and forced to train, fight and put his life at risk against the Saiyans when he was 5. I would have never blamed Gohan for panicking. People tend to forget he had witnessed the murder of his friends, the genocide of the Namekians and almost died at least twice before he turned six.
While certainly horrifying in real life, we're talking about a world where people can destroy mountains and worlds. Gohan's power could in fact be the difference between life and death. The child soldiers involvement is completely unnecessary which makes their fate all the more tragic. The most I can give you is the Saiyan arc where it was in fact against his will, but in the Namek arc, he was there of his own volition. He also doesn't come across as a 5 year old in the Freeza arc.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by soulnova » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:57 pm

ABED wrote:
soulnova wrote:
ABED wrote: Can we not equivocate Gohan with real life child soldiers?
Sorry! Ok. Didn't mean to offend anyone. Just making a point that Gohan was literally kidnapped and forced to train, fight and put his life at risk against the Saiyans when he was 5. I would have never blamed Gohan for panicking. People tend to forget he had witnessed the murder of his friends, the genocide of the Namekians and almost died at least twice before he turned six.
While certainly horrifying in real life, we're talking about a world where people can destroy mountains and worlds. Gohan's power could in fact be the difference between life and death. The child soldiers involvement is completely unnecessary which makes their fate all the more tragic. The most I can give you is the Saiyan arc where it was in fact against his will, but in the Namek arc, he was there of his own volition. He also doesn't come across as a 5 year old in the Freeza arc.

Yeah, I understand. We can argue it was done because his power could really "save the world"... and he does indeed take the initiative to go to Namek himself... I can't blame ChiChi for loosing it when he said that. And yes, he acts way more maturely than his age in the Freeza Arc. Maybe Goku expected the same from Goten and Trunks when they were tasked with dealing with Buu?


In any case, I'm just glad he turned out ok, has a new loving family and is doing what he really loves.
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