Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Saiga » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:48 am

Zephyr wrote:
Saiga wrote:It wouldn't be a challenge. They'd just lose.
So you've seen the fight play out? Neat.
Don't be facetious - that's not the only way to predict how things would go down. In universe, Gohan's advantage over Goku was just made very clear through beating up someone Goku was scared of fighting. Why didn't Goku want that challenge? Because Boo was beyond him. And Gohan kicked the shit out of Boo.

And we know Goku doesn't give a shit if his challenges come in the form of villains or his friends, he'll happily stake the universe on a fun fight. But he's shown that he's not too keen on being totally outclassed.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by B » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:07 am

The glaring problems with "new generation" stories is A) There's no real believable way any one of them can become stronger than Goku, Gohan, or Vegeta; at least not without proper build-up(which I can guess could happen if Super runs long enough); so what kind of enemy can be introduced where they have an even playing field and we're not just waiting for Goku to show up at the end, and B) Most of them don't seem that interested fighting, or even really need to, considering all the talk of "peace time."

Honestly, I think Marron has the most story potential out of all of them. She can basically be the new Kuririn; a key support player. Uub has no real personality to speak of(yet); he came off as skittish and unknowing about his hidden power, but that's rehashing Gohan's story. Goten and Trunks are brats; perhaps Goten can be course-corrected into his original role of Goku-lite, but slightly more level-headed because he didn't grow up secluded. I have no idea what individual role Trunks could play that's remotely interesting. Future Trunks is the soft-spoken stoic; present-day Trunks is really just one-half of Gotenks, and GT kind of proves that with how neutered he is. Pan is sort of in the same boat; she's got much more clear-minded parents than Trunks does, but she is Mr. Satan's granddaughter. I imagine he spoils her whenever he gets the chance. The big problem is there's just enough story for her, or Uub, to really go off of. What can you make up whole sale that's never been done before but at the same time interesting? I'm kind of not expecting Super to really concern itself with this, though. Toriyama seems to be afraid of touching that part of the story, and Toei essentially views these characters as the Looney Tunes; timeless, ageless mascots that show up in their most recognizable, fan-favorite forms, do the things they are characteristically known for doing, and are then put back in the box to be pulled out and do it all over again because cash money.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Rocketman » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:46 am

B wrote:The big problem is there's just enough story for her, or Uub, to really go off of. What can you make up whole sale that's never been done before but at the same time interesting?
The problem is, they have been making new stories. They just make it be all about Goku when it doesn't have to be.

For example, did movie 13 need Goku to tell Trunks to fuck off and suddenly no-sell Hildegarn at the end? No.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Zephyr » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:39 pm

Saiga wrote:In universe, Gohan's advantage over Goku was just made very clear through beating up someone Goku was scared of fighting. Why didn't Goku want that challenge? Because Boo was beyond him. And Gohan kicked the shit out of Boo.
And that ignores the potential for Goku to catch up close enough to him, by any variety of means, in order to put up something more resembling a fight. A lot can happen in 10 years.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Weedity » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:09 pm

Ehhh if Pan becomes the main hero of Super, count me out. At least, if she is anything like GT Pan. I just could not stand her!

I mean, I wouldn't mind a Pan, Goten, Trunks combination. But if the series focuses on Pan mostly, I'd be a bit turned off.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by soulnova » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:54 pm

Weedity wrote:Ehhh if Pan becomes the main hero of Super, count me out. At least, if she is anything like GT Pan. I just could not stand her!

I mean, I wouldn't mind a Pan, Goten, Trunks combination. But if the series focuses on Pan mostly, I'd be a bit turned off.
I hear you. They botched Pan in GT and I expect them to make amends on that.

If we have Pan post EoZ we will definitely have Uub, no question about it. At least on Neko Majin they are both shown to be at Mount Paoz with Goku (Uub even seems to wear the orange gi), so I have high hopes that Pan won't be an annoying brat. My ideal combo would be: Uub, Pan, Bra, Goten and Trunks.
Check out Journey's End, a short story of Goku and Vegeta's final days. "Time is running out for the last two Saiyans"

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:22 pm

And that ignores the potential for Goku to catch up close enough to him, by any variety of means, in order to put up something more resembling a fight. A lot can happen in 10 years.
I couldn't imagine Goku coming anywhere close to Fantastic Gohan, even after 10 years.

Gohan (far beyond limits) >>> Gohan (limits) >>> Goku (limits)

Vegeta backs me here also:
Chapter: 204 (DBZ 10), P12.1-2 wrote:Vegeta: “At any rate, the battle power of Kakarot’s son is unusually high, even by the standards of Saiyan children.
Nappa: “Maybe his reading was wrong.”
Vegeta: “No, it wasn’t wrong. Raditz really took a large amount of damage from that brat’s attack. It seems that mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood begets a powerful hybrid.
Gohan's potential was clearly hyped up as a huge deal throughout the whole series, Elder Kaioshin brings Gohan beyond his limits. In my opinion, without god powers, Goku is an ant to Ultimate Gohan.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Zephyr » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:03 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Elder Kaioshin brings Gohan beyond his limits.
References to "limits" are thrown around so liberally in this series, it's difficult for me to take them seriously enough to try and develop a science surrounding them, and pretty much impossible for me to be persuaded one way or another by invoking reference to them.

Goten and Trunks were able to make ridiculous strides and move up an unimaginable number of power tiers just by play fighting over the years, so to me it seems that Goku and Vegeta would be able to do something similar and cover incredible ground, God powers or not. Was that because Goten and Trunks were hybrids? Yes? No? Maybe? Partially? A little bit? Mostly? That's a matter of speculation.

My point with what I'd said though was that it's not logically impossible for Goku and/or Vegeta to have somehow caught up enough to Ultimate Gohan to think of him as a an enjoyable challenge. And my point in saying that was to show that they wouldn't necessarily get "wrekt" by Ultimate Gohan during the 28th TB, which was meant to support soulnova's notion that Gohan not caring about fighting very easily could have been the reason for Goku not trying to get Gohan to participate.

If you disagree with any of this, that's fine. I'm bowing out though. Discussions of post-Buu Gohan are beginning to get up there with "Kid Buu vs Super Buu", "Gohan SSj1 or 2 vs Dabura?", etc.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Rocketman » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:59 am

At the very least, it is ridiculous to think Goku or Vegeta could've caught up to Gohan in their base forms. Goku would have to shake the Earth with his fully revved-up Super Saiyan 3 power to even have a chance of fighting the Gohan who's standing around reading books and slapping Videl on the butt.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by soulnova » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:20 am

Rocketman wrote:Goku would have to shake the Earth with his fully revved-up Super Saiyan 3 power to even have a chance of fighting the Gohan who's standing around reading books and slapping Videl on the butt.

Gohan, living the dream. 8)
Check out Journey's End, a short story of Goku and Vegeta's final days. "Time is running out for the last two Saiyans"

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Saiga » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:11 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Saiga wrote:In universe, Gohan's advantage over Goku was just made very clear through beating up someone Goku was scared of fighting. Why didn't Goku want that challenge? Because Boo was beyond him. And Gohan kicked the shit out of Boo.
And that ignores the potential for Goku to catch up close enough to him, by any variety of means, in order to put up something more resembling a fight. A lot can happen in 10 years.
Because that's not really my point. As things stand at the end of the Boo arc, Gohan is too far out of Goku's league to give him the the kind challenge he wants. So you don't need to ask questions like "Why didn't Goku want to fight Gohan?" because that already made sense at the end of the manga. It's only if you start speculating that Goku would now be able to fight more evenly with Gohan that you'd have to ask that.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by SSJ Human » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:41 pm

The more I think about it, the less likely this is going to be. You'll probably have it like Z with Goku as the main with there being one young protagonists.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Nickolaidas » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:01 am

At this point it's difficult to have other characters be important or be protagonists besides Goku and Vegeta.

And it's the show's damn fault. Especially in the new movies.

When every single character besides Goku and Vegeta are handled like punching bags or slapping chances by the villains, these characters won't get new fans. Seriously, who the hell would pick Krillin or Tien as favorite characters from the Frieza saga and after? The only reason Tien has fans is because people remember who he *used* to be in the 22nd Budokai. And half of Daimaioh's saga. Same goes for Roshi. It's impossible for him to be someone's favourite character if that someone hasn't watched (plain) Dragon Ball. Toei and Toriyama turned these amazing characters into walking corpses that don't do anything except be humiliated by the big bad's henchmen. Krillin suffered the ultimate humiliation and became comic relief and the guy who is used to piss off Goku with his death or pain.

Even the Saiyans, the amazing super duper fighting race which is supposed to be the ultimate warrior are now worthless, except Goku and Vegeta. Goten, Trunks and Gohan are now just as irrelevant and useless as Krillin and Tien, despite being Super Saiyans.

Dragon Ball was about Goku.
Dragon Ball Z was about the Saiyans.
Dragon Ball GT was about Goku again.

And now (because of continuous fan-bitching) Dragon Ball Super will be all about Goku and Vegeta. Because fans *demanded* it. They demanded that Vegeta would become useful and got what they wanted (in a way). Goku winning is the natural order of things; Vegeta winning is not plot; it's fanservice. Pure and simple.

The only reason Vegeta is relevant (and beloved to the fans) is the fact that he was lucky enough to became Goku's 'permanent' rival. That caused the story to always place him once step behind Goku and always fail to surpass him by an inch. As a result, the fans started to see him as an underdog of sorts, and kept asking for him to make the leap and surpass Goku. Hence the fanservice. Also, it is interesting to note that by achieving the position of rival, Toriyama was forced to have more and more stuff for Vegeta to do, thus keeping him relevant (this is VERY important).

Because that's what makes characters good characters to be loved and get fans. (Quality) screentime. And in Dragon Ball, quality screentime means 'do damage to the arch-villain' or 'do something which changes the tide of the battle in Goku's favor'. It doesn't mean 'bitching about one's child needing to study' or 'peeing one's pants from fright' or 'killing a few worthless mooks of Frieza' or 'getting KOed by the arch villain with one slap'.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Retan » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:12 am

Nickolaidas wrote:At this point it's difficult to have other characters be important or be protagonists besides Goku and Vegeta.

And it's the show's damn fault. Especially in the new movies.

When every single character besides Goku and Vegeta are handled like punching bags or slapping chances by the villains, these characters won't get new fans. Seriously, who the hell would pick Krillin or Tenshinhan as favorite characters from the Freeza saga and after? The only reason Tenshinhan has fans is because people remember who he *used* to be in the 22nd Budokai. And half of Daimaioh's saga. Same goes for Roshi. It's impossible for him to be someone's favourite character if that someone hasn't watched (plain) Dragon Ball. Toei and Toriyama turned these amazing characters into walking corpses that don't do anything except be humiliated by the big bad's henchmen. Krillin suffered the ultimate humiliation and became comic relief and the guy who is used to piss off Goku with his death or pain.

Even the Saiyans, the amazing super duper fighting race which is supposed to be the ultimate warrior are now worthless, except Goku and Vegeta. Goten, Trunks and Gohan are now just as irrelevant and useless as Krillin and Tenshinhan, despite being Super Saiyans.

Dragon Ball was about Goku.
Dragon Ball Z was about the Saiyans.
Dragon Ball GT was about Goku again.

And now (because of continuous fan-bitching) Dragon Ball Super will be all about Goku and Vegeta. Because fans *demanded* it. They demanded that Vegeta would become useful and got what they wanted (in a way). Goku winning is the natural order of things; Vegeta winning is not plot; it's fanservice. Pure and simple.

The only reason Vegeta is relevant (and beloved to the fans) is the fact that he was lucky enough to became Goku's 'permanent' rival. That caused the story to always place him once step behind Goku and always fail to surpass him by an inch. As a result, the fans started to see him as an underdog of sorts, and kept asking for him to make the leap and surpass Goku. Hence the fanservice. Also, it is interesting to note that by achieving the position of rival, Toriyama was forced to have more and more stuff for Vegeta to do, thus keeping him relevant (this is VERY important).

Because that's what makes characters good characters to be loved and get fans. (Quality) screentime. And in Dragon Ball, quality screentime means 'do damage to the arch-villain' or 'do something which changes the tide of the battle in Goku's favor'. It doesn't mean 'bitching about one's child needing to study' or 'peeing one's pants from fright' or 'killing a few worthless mooks of Freeza' or 'getting KOed by the arch villain with one slap'.

Great Post!! :clap: :clap: Agree with everything you wrote. again Great Post!! :clap:

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by sintzu » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:41 am

Nickolaidas wrote:
And now (because of continuous fan-bitching) Dragon Ball Super will be all about Goku and Vegeta. Because fans *demanded* it.

Toriyama was forced to have more and more stuff for Vegeta to do.
Now ? Dbz from beginning to end and the last 2 movies were about them so why is it a problem now ? and Toriyama has stated that he doesn't listen to fans so whatever he does in Super will be because he wants to.

No one can force Toriyama to do anything so whatever he did with Vegeta was because he wanted to.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Eire » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:53 am

Every time I read about Toriyama "being forced to write anything" I imagine him starring in real life re-creation of Misery.

Fans have been whining, writing rants and complaining since time immemorial and that was their right. At least since "Little woman" sequel authors trolled complainers and that's their right too. Toriyama might be convinced, asked, suggested, pleaded, begged to write something but the last decision was up to him. Luckily nobody holds hatchet over his knees and his family at the gunpoint. If he decided to differ his plans or add something for the sake of someone's pleasure- maybe it convinced him, maybe he is a nice sir who never thought about doing something spiteful but likes cheering people. Because had he really been so tired of Vegeta he could have done literally anything to make every fan pull his hair in rage. But he didn't. I prefer to think that he is not crying about that.
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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:35 pm

Nickolaidas wrote:At this point it's difficult to have other characters be important or be protagonists besides Goku and Vegeta.

And it's the show's damn fault. Especially in the new movies.

When every single character besides Goku and Vegeta are handled like punching bags or slapping chances by the villains, these characters won't get new fans. Seriously, who the hell would pick Krillin or Tenshinhan as favorite characters from the Freeza saga and after? The only reason Tenshinhan has fans is because people remember who he *used* to be in the 22nd Budokai. And half of Daimaioh's saga. Same goes for Roshi. It's impossible for him to be someone's favourite character if that someone hasn't watched (plain) Dragon Ball. Toei and Toriyama turned these amazing characters into walking corpses that don't do anything except be humiliated by the big bad's henchmen. Krillin suffered the ultimate humiliation and became comic relief and the guy who is used to piss off Goku with his death or pain.

Even the Saiyans, the amazing super duper fighting race which is supposed to be the ultimate warrior are now worthless, except Goku and Vegeta. Goten, Trunks and Gohan are now just as irrelevant and useless as Krillin and Tenshinhan, despite being Super Saiyans.

Dragon Ball was about Goku.
Dragon Ball Z was about the Saiyans.
Dragon Ball GT was about Goku again.

And now (because of continuous fan-bitching) Dragon Ball Super will be all about Goku and Vegeta. Because fans *demanded* it. They demanded that Vegeta would become useful and got what they wanted (in a way). Goku winning is the natural order of things; Vegeta winning is not plot; it's fanservice. Pure and simple.

The only reason Vegeta is relevant (and beloved to the fans) is the fact that he was lucky enough to became Goku's 'permanent' rival. That caused the story to always place him once step behind Goku and always fail to surpass him by an inch. As a result, the fans started to see him as an underdog of sorts, and kept asking for him to make the leap and surpass Goku. Hence the fanservice. Also, it is interesting to note that by achieving the position of rival, Toriyama was forced to have more and more stuff for Vegeta to do, thus keeping him relevant (this is VERY important).

Because that's what makes characters good characters to be loved and get fans. (Quality) screentime. And in Dragon Ball, quality screentime means 'do damage to the arch-villain' or 'do something which changes the tide of the battle in Goku's favor'. It doesn't mean 'bitching about one's child needing to study' or 'peeing one's pants from fright' or 'killing a few worthless mooks of Freeza' or 'getting KOed by the arch villain with one slap'.
Power=Screen time since I believe the Cyborg arc. During Saiyan and Freeza arcs a lot of time was put on the people who aren't super powerful at the moment. IE Piccolo, Gohan, and the humans for the Saiyans, and Gohan and Krillin for Namek til around the Freeza shows up.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Nickolaidas » Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:00 pm

Eire wrote:Every time I read about Toriyama "being forced to write anything" I imagine him starring in real life re-creation of Misery.
Just to be clear, when I said "forced to have Vegeta do stuff", I meant he had to in order to maintain the status quo of Vegeta being 'the rival' - a position Toriyama *himself* wanted Vegeta to have, in order to make Goku look *better*. If Vegeta was vastly surpassed by Goku and had no screen time with the Big Bad, he's not a rival to the protagonist's power; he's just Krillin.
I never meant the fans put a gun into Akira Toriyama's head and ordered him to make Vegeta relevant.

And to be clear on another thing: Dragon Ball is Toriyama's baby, and anything he says goes - it's his and can do whatever the hell he wants with it. What I'm saying is that with this attitude of making everyone worthless and having the hero and the rival do all the (heavy)lifting, the other characters get no new fans and become irrelevant in the eyes of new fandom. Only veteran fans like these characters, not because of who they are, but because of what they used to be.

Dragon Ball Super will basically tell the new fandom that there are only two guys to root for. The others are inconsequential. Which hurts the veteran fandom because it didn't use to be that way back when they were fighting a macho alien, a squad of alien nerds, an albino lizard, an inconspicuous old man and a mime, a lizard-robot and a pink condom.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by SSJ Human » Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:38 pm

Nickolaidas wrote:
Eire wrote:Every time I read about Toriyama "being forced to write anything" I imagine him starring in real life re-creation of Misery.
Just to be clear, when I said "forced to have Vegeta do stuff", I meant he had to in order to maintain the status quo of Vegeta being 'the rival' - a position Toriyama *himself* wanted Vegeta to have, in order to make Goku look *better*. If Vegeta was vastly surpassed by Goku and had no screen time with the Big Bad, he's not a rival to the protagonist's power; he's just Krillin.
I never meant the fans put a gun into Akira Toriyama's head and ordered him to make Vegeta relevant.

And to be clear on another thing: Dragon Ball is Toriyama's baby, and anything he says goes - it's his and can do whatever the hell he wants with it. What I'm saying is that with this attitude of making everyone worthless and having the hero and the rival do all the (heavy)lifting, the other characters get no new fans and become irrelevant in the eyes of new fandom. Only veteran fans like these characters, not because of who they are, but because of what they used to be.

Dragon Ball Super will basically tell the new fandom that there are only two guys to root for. The others are inconsequential. Which hurts the veteran fandom because it didn't use to be that way back when they were fighting a macho alien, a squad of alien nerds, an albino lizard, an inconspicuous old man and a mime, a lizard-robot and a pink condom.
That's what has actually been pissing me off about Dragon Ball since the Buu saga, though mostly since GT. I love this series for most of its characters, primarily Goku, Krillin, Gohan, Piccolo, Future Trunks, Tien and Vegeta, but when only two of them are getting focus and the others are thereby nothing, that's where my problem with it comes into play.

Naruto is a series I've never been particularly fond of, but I will admit that the great majority of its cast has something to do or some fight that makes them impressive, makes you want to consider them a character you'd like and be interested in. They get their focus whereas with Dragon Ball Super, I'm worried whether or not it will be the equivalent of GT with Vegeta traveling in Space with Goku as opposed to Pan and Trunks and the two saving the day.

I understand the love for Vegeta. I understand the love for Goku. I like them both and always will, but this franchise was doing fine on its own when there was only Goku and the series alternated between its main protagonists for most of Z.

All I can honestly hope for from Super is focus, done similarly to Z's Frieza and Cell Saga, with multiple characters having use to the main story. You had parts with different characters were stronger than other and it was believable that someone apart from Goku could defeat Frieza and Cell, the latter actually being beaten by someone else.

Take Krillin for example. He may not get an impressive fight, but he had use in the initial battle against Frieza and was relevant to the Cell arc by his encounter with Dr. Gero, being the only one that didn't fight the androids and still sticking up to them in a way, destroying his lab with Future Trunks, retrieving the detonator from Bulma and technically being the first person to fight against Perfect Cell as well as getting Vegeta's comatose body out of the area. We're talking about a guy that was weaker than just about every major villain in that saga and here he is being this useful and important to the plot. Power doesn't solely dictate how much someone can be important.

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Re: Younger generation as main heroes in Super - for real

Post by Doctor. » Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:42 pm

I see no reason for Goku, Veggie, Beerus and Whis not to go around and explore the other universes as literally everyone wants them to, and the rest of the cast to deal with any threats in Universe 7. If the two plot lines were properly developed and they found believable opponents for the Dragon Team present in universe 7, then I don't see why this couldn't be a good way to balance out the screen-time between the huge cast of characters.
Last edited by Doctor. on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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