Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by coola » Sun May 10, 2015 10:04 am

(Minor spoilers for "Ressurection of F")

In newest Kai episode, they didn't get rid of Hell filler, while in newest movie, Mr. Toriyama showed his version of Hell and what happened to Freeza, movies are said to be continuation of manga, would you like Super to be sequel to manga and Bog/F, or rather a continuation of Z/Kai? Me personally, i found Kai (especially Buu Saga Kai) to be complete disaster nobody at Toei cares about anymore, but voice actors, and would prefer to be forgotten as soon as possible. I know there are some people, that don't like mr.Toriyama recent ideas, but that's my humble opinion :)
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Chuquita » Sun May 10, 2015 10:22 am

I'll take either, but I want a direct F continuation more because it feels fresher. I like EoZ Pan, and I like Vegeta and EoZ Bra interaction, but we've had since 95 (or for me personally, 00) to explore that in the fandom. Beerus and Whis have only been around for 2 years now. I want more of Whis training Gokû and Vegeta, more Beerus in general, and maybe finally exploring the other universes. Daily life shenanigans are also fun.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by johnboy1 » Sun May 10, 2015 10:46 am

Quite frankly, I hope the new series references Tullece, Broly, Slug, Metal Cooler, and also foreshadows a bunch of GT stuff. Hell, throw in a direct reference to Cross Epoch while we're at it. The best way to get rid of the continuity debates is to smash the continuity with a fucking hammer.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sintzu » Sun May 10, 2015 10:59 am

Toriyama said he wrote both movies as a continuation to the manga so chances are he's doing the same for Super.

I'm a dub fan so it's going to be way more in line with Kai then Z so I'm going to look at it as a follow up to Kai which thankfully cut out the filler that goes against the manga's story or the new ones we're getting now.

In terms of the hell that was shown in today's episode,I would rather it be cut with everything else but it being there isn't that big of a deal cause it can probably be explained one way or another.
Last edited by sintzu on Sun May 10, 2015 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Sun May 10, 2015 11:05 am

As long as it connects with GT I don't mind what happens.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sintzu » Sun May 10, 2015 11:08 am

Cetra wrote:As long as it connects with GT I don't mind what happens.
The last 2 movies threw Gt out the window.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Sun May 10, 2015 11:10 am

sintzu wrote:
Cetra wrote:As long as it connects with GT I don't mind what happens.
The last 2 movies threw Gt out the window.
No, they don't. That is just some wet dream of fans by insisting to think continuity errors would actually have any meaning in fiction. If Akira Toriyama and Toei work an Super and they actually decide to include GT then any continuity error you come up with will be totally irrelevant. Property is ruled with rights, not logical connections of a story, even if continuity errors are without a doubt not always easy to accept.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sintzu » Sun May 10, 2015 11:22 am

Cetra wrote:
No, they don't.

If Akira Toriyama and Toei work an Super and they actually decide to include GT then any continuity error you come up with will be totally irrelevant.
How ? Why were Pilaf&his gang old ? Where were Beerus&Whis ? Why didn't Goku&Vegeta use their god powers ? Why didn't Freeza use his Golden form ?

Of course they can but as of now the last 2 movies have clearly implied that Gt doesn't count when it comes to these new stories.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TJVY » Sun May 10, 2015 11:24 am

As long as the original dub actors from Z are back such as Meredith McCoy, I'm happy.

Hoping for a direct continuation from RoF.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by VegettoEX » Sun May 10, 2015 11:51 am

sintzu wrote:How ? Why were Pilaf&his gang old ? Where were Beerus&Whis ? Why didn't Goku&Vegeta use their god powers ? Why didn't Freeza use his Golden form ?
They got old again. Beerus and Whis are in the same place they are in the last chapter of the manga. Their god powers are completely within them now. Freeza can't access that power in Hell.

I'm all for the "smash continuity with a hammer" option johnboy1 brought up.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Dyno » Sun May 10, 2015 11:58 am

I'm all for that as well, but only if the "non-canon" characters were re-written and/or their movies were remade to fit with the manga. That would be cool since I'm all even higher for the expansion (with no major inconcistencies and such) of the Dragon Ball. Looking at you, my dear Dragon Ball Online.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by coola » Sun May 10, 2015 11:59 am

Sorry, didn't mean to start canon debate, what i meant to say, that with how Hell was showed in Kai, it confirmed, that Kai is not part of manga universe, and i would prefer Super to be part of manga/movies universe :)
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun May 10, 2015 12:04 pm

I'm also in the camp that I hope it ties in GT. I hope that Super brings Pilaf, Shuu, and Mai back to their older selves and Goku and Vegeta somehow lose their Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (...sigh...) powers, I"m sorry, but I did not watch GT, buy two U.S. versions, and a Japanese Dragon Box just to be told that it's to be forgotten about. I dedicated way too much time for it. It's just not fair to fans to do that, to be honest. While many don't enjoy GT, many don't enjoy Tokyo Drift, but it's not "forgotten" about, it's just built upon and made better. Because for as many people that hate GT with a passion, there is someone out there that loves it and you can't tell them that it's not good enough to be a part of the series. Sorry, you guys made it, got the owner's endorsement, released video games for it, have those characters involved in all the new games; NOW, after 19 years of fans watching it and debating it and buying it, NOW you want to tell us that it doesn't count? Big "eff you" to that! Hell, GT characters, to this day, continue to be relevant. Look at Xenoverse, what was the very first set of DLC that came out with it? That's right, GT characters. You can't tell me that it's the general, overall, 100% consensus that GT should just be forgotten about.

Whatever my feelings and opinions are, simply sweeping GT under the rug and trying to forget about it is bull! The fans have dedicated 19 years to GT. As I said, in the Fast and Furious series, nobody said, "Oh hey, Tokyo Drift wasn't liked so we're going to completely erase it." No, they did it masterfully. They built upon it and then in Fast 6 and Furious 7, they finally directly acknowledged it. And that's what I hope Dragon Ball Super does.

Especially because I doubt Dragon Ball Super is going to be this "Oh em gee, effin <3 <3 <3 diz seriezz!!!" Nothing will ever top Z, no matter what they do, no matter what Akira Toriyama can write, nothing will top Z in my opinion. And these last two movies are okay for one shots, but to write an entire series as lazily as these two movies have been (in my opinion, lazy and with Resurrection F, damn sure unoriginal) is not going to work. And just because it's Akira Toriyama, I'm not going to let it blind me to the flaws in the new material. I don't particularly enjoy all the new material for Dragon Ball. I hope that Dragon Ball Super will be great, but I also am not going to blindly love it. For all we know, it will be worse than GT. I mean come on, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? I think the wheels fell off for this already.

So that's my rant about why GT should be included.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by LuckyCat » Sun May 10, 2015 12:14 pm

sintzu wrote:In terms of the hell that was shown in today's episode,I would rather it be cut with everything else but it being there isn't that big of a deal cause it can probably be explained one way or another.
Yes, this scene could be hand-waved as the afterlife itself was at stake so all the villains showing up out of shackles was a special rare one-time event.

To answer the OP, I would wager it will be in-line with the manga if only because Toriyama has probably forgotten the original parts of the anime and doesn't make directorial decisions for Kai.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sayian_nation_ » Sun May 10, 2015 12:27 pm

Thinking about it now, Toriyama's Hell in the filler was weak as shit. I mean it doesn't have the be the stereotypical interpretation of Hell, you know like a pit of fire with demons running around with pitchforks. I've witnessed his other version and it's a start.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun May 10, 2015 2:28 pm

I haven't seen Resurrection F yet (holding out for the FUNimation Blu-ray), but I just have to know what this version of Hell is like. The thing about the filler Hell is that it can be a pretty diverse place. The Hell that Goku fell down to was a pretty huge area. I could see it being almost like Earth where you can be in one country then go to another and it will be totally different. So I can see that Hell having different areas and locations. Then GT Hell (if that's where Goku encountered Freeza and Cell) was a lot different.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun May 10, 2015 2:43 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Freeza can't access that power in Hell.
Who say that he can't? Freeza can use his golden form like he can with his other transformations. He has no reason not to use it against Goku in Hell in GT given that he has unlimited use of ki and stamina to use in the After Life. Not to mention Goku and Vegeta both go beyond SSj when Toriyama said that SSj2 and SSj3 are no longer needed. Not to mention none of their hairs are blue when they transform into GT. At this rate, the manga and anime don't share the same continuity. They have their own continuity with their own rules and events in their timelines. The Garlic Jr saga happens in the anime continuity, but not the manga continuity.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Basaku » Sun May 10, 2015 2:48 pm

Cetra wrote:Property is ruled with rights, not logical connections of a story, even if continuity errors are without a doubt not always easy to accept.
Sure, TOEI/Toriyama can keep saying "GT is canon" forever regardless of any inconsistiences and as property owners it's gonan be technically canon. But that will hardly change the fact that no one will really take it seriously. When you have ROF changing how Goku/Vegeta look in SS form permanently there's really no actual synergy here with GT.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sintzu » Sun May 10, 2015 2:49 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
I'm all for the "smash continuity with a hammer" option johnboy1 brought up.
If you have an ongoing story then you need rules to follow so everything won't fall apart which is what would happen if we got rid of continuity.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by One_Instance » Sun May 10, 2015 2:52 pm

sintzu wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:
I'm all for the "smash continuity with a hammer" option johnboy1 brought up.
If you have an ongoing story then you need rules to follow so everything won't fall apart which is what would happen if we got rid of continuity.
Trust me, Dragon Ball got rid of continuity a looooong time ago.

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