Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Wed May 20, 2015 5:20 pm

Akira wrote:What exactly is an alternate timeline, but a parallel universe? I am confused on how the two are different. (For reference, I am asking this from an inquisitive standpoint, and not a combative tone.) I'd like to understand this better if there is something I am missing, but the two concepts seem to me to be the same thing. Twelve universes makes room for parallel timelines that are similar, but play out differently from some branching point. It also allows the possibility of a few that are entirely different altogether that branched off much earlier than the decades involving the series. That is my current understanding, but I am open to other explanations that have a better basis.

Also, my theory would not use Xenoverse for a valid source, as it is a video game. Despite the fact that it seems to support my theory, I take its spin on things as simply a creative way to have a major "What-if" mode. Essentially, a better written, within its own story basis, an "In Universe" explanation for the game being a big what-if mode. I was thoroughly impressed with the game, as it is probably the best new Dragonball game I've played since the Playstation 2 days, but it is still just that, a video game. In my opinion, it isn't fair to use that as a valid source for Manga/Anime discussion. (I am not saying that you think it is, and I don't. I believe you brought it up to illustrate a point only. I just wanted to share my stance on it for reference only.)

Thank you for your response, I am enjoying the solid feedback you and others have given. It helps improve individual theories when we try to sharpen them together.
:thumbup:
I need to address these points out of order. While I'm not saying that Xenoverse shares continuity with the anime/manga/whatever, being a game doesn't make it less valid to me. In this modern age of expanded franchise universes (Halo, Star Wars, etc), I'm a full supporter of cross media storytelling and I don't discount information because of it's media format. Due to the nature of the format though, the specifics of the game's story may not really need to apply, but I've no real real reason to discard all the effort that went into the world building details provided for the game (such as the Time Kaioshin, the explanations on time travel, etc). Especially with Toriyama's level of involvement on DBO and the subsequent reutilization of at least the basic assets in Xenoverse.

Anyway, it's true that outside of Dragon Ball terms like "alternate timelines" and "parallel universes" are often used interchangeably. Actually, the same could probably be considered true in Dragon Ball up until Beerus' reveal at the end of Battle of Gods, but the Hakaishin's statements in the film and the Chozenshu information on the matter currently setup the 12 Alternate Universes as being completely separate from the timelines like those created by Trunks (which as per Xenoverse are caused by primitive time machines). It is made to sound like they have always existed alongside each other since the beginning of time, and weren't just created after someone decided time travel would be a good idea. Here is Herms' summary of the guide's contents as well as his opinion on the matter. I think it sums things up pretty nicely.
  • "Chouzenshu #4's "World View for DB" section implies that the twelve universes are all a bunch of big snow globes, and that the Universe #7 globe *which we're been aware of for years) is where all of Goku and company's adventures take place. The entire section makes references to stuff from GT, BOG, the earlier DBZ movies, Neko Majin, Dr. Slump, filler, etc, without any hint or suggestion that some of these things are located in one of the other twelve universes Beerus mentioned. Likewise, the book's timeline includes both BoG, GT, some of the earlier DBZ movies, Episode of Bardock, filler, etc. And the character bios place all the stuff from GT/BoG/movies/other anime stuff into a single "Anime" sub-section for each bio. It's the same setup as in the original Daizenshuu 7 dictionaries, but with GT and other new material added in. Meanwhile, for new manga material like Dr. Slump Abale-chan, Neko Majin, and Episode of Bardock, there's a new "Spin-Off" sub-section for each bio covering material from them. Basically, the book is interested in identifying where things originate from (DB manga, anime, spin-off manga) and dividing them up on that basis, but there's no attempt to define any sort of organized canon, or any suggestion that some of these things are set in one of the other twelve universes. Rather, it's repeatedly stated how DB takes place in the seventh universe, and this seems to mean all of DB, even versions that don't all necessarily fit together continuity-wise.

    There's also never any attempt to rationalize how BoG and GT might fit together...which is at least a little odd, since Daizenshuu 7 actually did include a few theories trying to explain away filler contradictions and whatnot, like suggesting that maybe Gero and Frappe were partners in android research. But while Chouzenshuu 4 reprints these ideas along with most of Daizenshuu 7's material, it doesn't offer any new such theories. So for instance, the anime sub-section for Pilaf or Mai's bio describes both their young appearance in BoG and their elderly appearance in GT, without any sort of "hey, maybe they made another wish and wound up too old!" theories fans toss around. For that matter, there's never any special place given to BoG material. It's labelled anime-only just like everything from previous movies and GT and whatnot. Even the entry for Universe #7 in the locations dictionary is labelled anime-only and explained as being something introduced in BoG. Not to repeat myself, but it's really not treated as the key to arranging all the franchise's various incarnations in relation to each other across some vast multiverse. Loads of fans obviously go wild for the idea, but so far the franchise's movers and shakers don't seem interested. Maybe they will some day, but in the meantime they seem perfectly able to sell video and card games incorporating as much GT as they want without devising any Grand Unified Theory of continuity, so they probably figure it's best to just leave well enough alone."
There's also the issue with these alternate universes being the result of time travel, then Beerus (having lived a long time) should be aware of them since most are created within a very specific timeframe. And seeing how at least 3-4 of them (6-8 if you are counting the anime and manga incarnations separately) would have Beerus and Whis as the strongest beings and thus shouldn't be telling Goku that who knows what kind of strong fighters are out there.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Akira » Thu May 21, 2015 2:58 pm

TheDevilsCorpse:

Thank you for expanding on this more, and taking the time to include the quotations from your source backing your claim. I really appreciate this level of discussion and insight. Funny thing is, I own copies of the books you referenced, the Chozenshu, but I can't read a lick of Japanese, so I just looked through at the pictures and charts and tried to read as much as I could on this site (and previously Kanzentai) about their content specifics. Was not aware that the universes/timelines thing had been explained in this manner. Even an old DB trivia buff like myself can learn new things, and this is now a firm point that my theory needs a little re-direction.

So, basically, I need to think of it in terms of the universe picture from the guidebooks then, correct? (The one that shows the living realm, the afterlife, snake way, and the Kaioshin realm orbiting it.) That is universe #7, and there are 11 entirely other complete "universes" out there somewhere. Whereas, my comparisons in figuring out consistencies and discrepancies between various Dragonball media needs to be looked at in terms of alternate timelines all within the scope of universe #7, yes? That is what I am understanding your description and information to depict in my mind.

I actually should expand more on my Xenoverse statement as well. I agree completely that the Supreme Kai of Time, the very notion of Toki City as a realm outside of timelines, and a new relevance and further adventures for Future Trunks are all fantastic concepts. It even does an awesome job of bringing a lot of things into perspective timeline wise that the fanbase has debated on for years. While it does all the right things, and I'd love to accept it as a definitive explanation on certain matters, I just don't see any of the other media (Manga, Anime, Movies) ever referencing it, and therefore confirming its legitimacy. I could be wrong, and I would love to be wrong on that, but I think trying to take that standpoint in a debate would lead to a confrontation on the validity of video game material being legitimate or not. Entire discussions would run off track on that point of contention alone.

So, the more honest response is that I actually share your viewpoint regarding cross-storytelling between various media, and that the information presented in Xenoverse is top notch and makes sense. However, I believe it could become as tricky a matter to discuss as battle powers are. By that, I mean people could dismiss it based on the format alone, along with any valid points connected to it. The people on this forum are more open minded than most, but anywhere else and it might have to just end in an agree to disagree situation. So, I agree that it all makes sense and "fits", but it may have to be considered secondary or "potentially accurate portrayal" without some sort of validation within the traditional formats.

All that said, I could sum it up in a nutshell like this: I share your viewpoint, and actually accept the information into my own personal interpretation of things, but I won't ever attempt to cite it in a debate, at least not without some sort of disclaimer line regarding the potential validity based on individual perspectives. I reckon that's really the only difference.

Thanks again for the insight on the Universes though, that definitely helped me out quite a bit to understand things better.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sat May 23, 2015 5:42 am

I won't hold my breath, but now that Xenoverse is a worldwide product, I'm hoping future guidebooks for the franchise might cover it's basic information (unlike Dragon Ball Online, which wasn't even acknowledged in the Chozenshuu's new product section). New material may never address content like Xenoverse, but a lot of discussion in the Dragon Ball fanbase is left up to fan interpretation anyway. There are people out there who only accept the manga, those who will accept other Toriyama contributions, those who will accept the guidebooks and even those who like the filler materials. That's why we so much discussion/debating/fighting in the first place. So I still try to always make it a point to bring the unique world building information up in a discussion when applicable. If the other involved members don't want to accept it, that's fine, but I like to at least provide all options for consideration when other sources just don't cover whatever is in question.

Anyway,.. Yes, that seems to be the current intention. Likening it to Xenoverse again (because we have no other time travel information), Beerus' 12 Universes he mentioned seem to be entirely distinct "globes" that have probably existed along side each other since the beginning of time. While all the various continuities with the manga, anime, movies, etc would be timelines contained in the Scroll(s) of Endings and Beginnings (recorded from the Time Crystals in the Time Chasm, contained in the Time Vault, within the Time Den in Toki Toki City) within Universe 7, that were created as a result of someone tinkering with time or whatever. At least for the time being until more information on the 12 UNiverses is addressed (if ever), or if Toriyama decides to tackle the time travel content again and contradict anything we've had revealed from sources besides himself.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by NeoKING » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:29 pm

Taking Sean Schemmel's recent comments about his theory that the end of Kai will be different from the end of Z, I've been thinking: what if he was right?

What if Kai was just Toei's set up for a "Lets do Dragon Ball [again], so we could do a brand new sequel series" plan? What really made me think of this was the fact that Kai and Super both feature kanji in their logos. This way we have two officially different - dare I say this cursed word - canons.

Manga -> Dragon Ball -> Z -> GT

Manga -> [Dragon Ball] -> Dragon Ball [Z] Kai -> BoG -> RoF -> Super

[Manga -> [???] -> Movies]*

*If you really want to add some non-canon Toei specials to the mix.

In that sense, Super can't be the sequel to the Dragon Ball Z, because the sequel to Dragon Ball Z was Dragon Ball GT. However, it can be the sequel to Dragon Ball Kai.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:31 pm

GT is a sequel to the DBZ anime, but not the manga though. GT has references to anime fillers that are not seen in the manga.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TJVY » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:13 pm

NeoKING wrote:In that sense, Super can't be the sequel to the Dragon Ball Z, because the sequel to Dragon Ball Z was Dragon Ball GT. However, it can be the sequel to Dragon Ball Kai.
Nice thought, but Kai has shown the filler scenes of Freeza watching Goku's battle with Buu in hell. :thumbdown:
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:31 am

I'd like for Super to cover everything, not just one time period.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:48 pm

TJVY wrote:
NeoKING wrote:In that sense, Super can't be the sequel to the Dragon Ball Z, because the sequel to Dragon Ball Z was Dragon Ball GT. However, it can be the sequel to Dragon Ball Kai.
Nice thought, but Kai has shown the filler scenes of Freeza watching Goku's battle with Buu in hell. :thumbdown:
Wait what? Why?! Did they change Freeza's appearance into his cyborg appearance in Hell to avoid confusion with the latest movie?
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Daisetsu » Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:37 pm

Nope, it's still the same unaltered scenes. They even left in the demons referencing Goku's time in Hell from the Saiyan arc.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:29 pm

That's stupid. That most likely causes confusion to kids and casuals that never seen the original DBZ over in Japan. I rather have Super only follow the manga, the newer movies and recent manga from Toriyama like Jaco. I think if past movie characters like Broli or Coola show up then that would cause confusion to newer fans who never follow the series outside of watching Kai on TV. Yeah the older movies and shows are on DVD over in Japan, but home video prices over there are very pricey. I doubt most parents in Japan can shell out the money to buy their kids the compete episodes of DB, DBZ and GT on home video in Japan unless someone proves me wrong like Kei17.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:53 pm

TJVY wrote:
Nice thought, but Kai has shown the filler scenes of Freeza watching Goku's battle with Buu in hell. :thumbdown:
LuckyCat wrote:This scene could be hand-waved as the afterlife itself was at stake so all the villains showing up out of shackles was a special rare one-time event.
Problem solved.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Luke Groundwalker » Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:43 pm

When it comes to the GT debate:

I feel like ignoring GT would be a bad decision, however I think for Super to be successful as a series it needs to have a clear progression with Goku and co. What I mean by this if we look at the supposed "canon" material of Dragonball aka everything Toriyama wrote, Goku and Vegeta are fucking GODS, which is a big deal. Super is supposed to follow this, and the End of Z chapter was a sole chapter that didn't really say anything about Goku and Vegeta's power level at the time at all really. In my opinion, if they make the end of Super having everything go backwards so Goku and Vegeta get nerfed for GT, that would be underwhelming and a big "fuck you" to the fans. Super does not have to overwrite GT, however at the same time I do believe by the end of it Goku should be more powerful than ever and the villains he faces are more powerful than ever as well.

Super is going to be a continuation of the current state of Dragonball. GT was the same way...but GT didn't have gods to top, nor did it have a potential multiverse and other plotpoints, nor did it have SSJGod. Super does, so it'll basically be a new take on GT under TOEI's new style of animation (which is prob gonna get a lot of backlash once people see it). I will say that I'm expecting Super to be a lot more bright and bubbly than GT ever was, which might catch some heat as well.

Regardless, I feel like Super won't lead into GT but it'll take place between End of Z and GT. That way TOEI can still push GT as a merchandise seller and still make money off of it without being seen by the masses as irrelevant.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:09 am

Super can take place after DBZ and ignore GT, but still have GT merchandise for collectors. Merchandise has no affect on the continuity of the series. Heck most franchises that I know of can have merchandise of past characters and have new installments ignore any previous continuity.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Ushabtis » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:16 am

well they're still making teen gohan toys and he hasn't been a teen for decades.

>GT
I doubt they'll care enough if they step on GT's toes. iirc GT is already in its own "timeline" and Super will probably also follow its own "timeline". Personally couldn't care if they ignore GT, and this coming from someone who really liked GT.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:35 am

Some fans act like if Super takes place after DBZ and ignores GT that Toei is going to remove everything GT related off the face of the Earth. Merchandise for GT will exist even if Super takes place after DBZ and does not follow GT.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TheGmGoken » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:39 am

I mean no harm but what's with the sudden respect for GT? I thought everyone would be glad that something could replace it. Now suddenly I see people wanting GT to happen (well it already did.. but you get it),.

Besides ain't GT getting lots of stuff thanks to DB Heroes
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Rocketman » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:56 am

TheGmGoken wrote:I mean no harm but what's with the sudden respect for GT? I thought everyone would be glad that something could replace it.
People wanted something good to replace GT. bog/faff are worse, and if Super follows them off the cliff, the future is dark indeed.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Ushabtis » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:15 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:Some fans act like if Super takes place after DBZ and ignores GT that Toei is going to remove everything GT related off the face of the Earth. Merchandise for GT will exist even if Super takes place after DBZ and does not follow GT.
well people like to worry over nothing.
TheGmGoken wrote:I mean no harm but what's with the sudden respect for GT?
Well personally I've always liked it but yeah i agree i thought GT was the black sheep of the Dragon Ball Franchise.
Rocketman wrote:People wanted something good to replace GT. bog/faff are worse, and if Super follows them off the cliff, the future is dark indeed.
put away your claws silly, BOG/ROF aren't that bad, they're decent films and all DBZ movies have never been that good to begin with.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:31 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:I mean no harm but what's with the sudden respect for GT? I thought everyone would be glad that something could replace it. Now suddenly I see people wanting GT to happen (well it already did.. but you get it),.
I think it's nostalgia. I think most fans grew up with GT on Toonami and it left a special impact on them.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Luke Groundwalker » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:55 pm

TheGmGoken wrote:I mean no harm but what's with the sudden respect for GT? I thought everyone would be glad that something could replace it. Now suddenly I see people wanting GT to happen (well it already did.. but you get it),.

Besides ain't GT getting lots of stuff thanks to DB Heroes
I never cared for GT myself, I just think it's silly as a concept that somehow TOEI/Toriyama and some parties want to erase GT from the series all together. Especially since GT is literally put in everything when it comes to merchandise still, and I highly doubt anyone who has any official capacity in distributing the series has any interest in devaluing something they can still make a lot of money off of.

It's also silly that the same people who believe this yet give a pass on other TOEI originals such as Broly and Cooler being shoved into everything.

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