Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by mogi67 » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:57 am

Why are people so opposed to viewing GT as an alternate universe? Is it really so mentally hard to keep two different stories in tandem? It's not like this is Gundam

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Blackstripe » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:00 am

VegettoEX wrote:
Blackstripe wrote:Really? Evolution happened? Even Akira Toriyama outright said he hated it, didn't he?
It still "happened" in that it's a thing that exists, a thing that we can talk about, and is a thing that you can still go purchase and analyse.

If you want to take it even further, you can lop it all into a giant multiverse.

It's fine to say "it doesn't count" in relation to, say, the manga... but let's not cover our eyes and ears and run around screaming "LA LA LA LA NO I WON'T TALK ABOUT IT." I mean, it's fine if you don't want to talk about it, but other people are free to, and they can make whatever crazy theories they want!
Does it sound like that was what I was implying? Of course we can't delete Evolution or GT or anything from actual reality.

As for a Multiverse? Well, fine. Might as well put all fanfiction in there too, if we're letting even Evolution in there. Then again, I guess that's what we do every time we propose a "What if" scenario.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:14 am

Blackstripe wrote:Does it sound like that was what I was implying? Of course we can't delete Evolution or GT or anything from actual reality.

As for a Multiverse? Well, fine. Might as well put all fanfiction in there too, if we're letting even Evolution in there. Then again, I guess that's what we do every time we propose a "What if" scenario.
Well, I have no idea what you're implying, because I can't read minds! :)

There's obviously a big difference between Evolution and fanfiction, and I find it absolutely ridiculous when people use that response. Like, I get it. I really do. People kinda hate the movie. OK, great.

However, it was still licensed, went through all the official channels, came out, and was sold as a Dragon Ball product. People have levied the same response at Dragon Ball GT ever since it came out, and it was as ridiculous then as it was/is with Evolution. They're all official creations. You can ignore them on a personal level if you want, but they exist, and lots of fans enjoy discussing them and incorporating them into some larger universe. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm not convinced anyone's, going along those lines, then 100% truly suggesting we in turn toss XxSephirothxX69's lemon fics into a multiverse. We're all reasonable people, here. I think. Maybe.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:29 pm

mogi67 wrote:Why are people so opposed to viewing GT as an alternate universe? Is it really so mentally hard to keep two different stories in tandem? It's not like this is Gundam
Why not? The idea of other continuities existing is not a bad idea. It makes it easier to fit things better in the universe without making everything into one giant mess. I view the old movies (DB Movies 1-4, DBZ Movies 1-13 and Evolution) no different with GT since they are set in their own dimension/world.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Ushabtis » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:27 pm

mogi67 wrote:Why are people so opposed to viewing GT as an alternate universe? Is it really so mentally hard to keep two different stories in tandem? It's not like this is Gundam
Gundam is all one timeline though...thanks to the dark history in Turn A. (only exception is Build fighters)
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Blackstripe » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:25 am

VegettoEX wrote:
Blackstripe wrote:Does it sound like that was what I was implying? Of course we can't delete Evolution or GT or anything from actual reality.

As for a Multiverse? Well, fine. Might as well put all fanfiction in there too, if we're letting even Evolution in there. Then again, I guess that's what we do every time we propose a "What if" scenario.
Well, I have no idea what you're implying, because I can't read minds! :)

There's obviously a big difference between Evolution and fanfiction, and I find it absolutely ridiculous when people use that response. Like, I get it. I really do. People kinda hate the movie. OK, great.

However, it was still licensed, went through all the official channels, came out, and was sold as a Dragon Ball product. People have levied the same response at Dragon Ball GT ever since it came out, and it was as ridiculous then as it was/is with Evolution. They're all official creations. You can ignore them on a personal level if you want, but they exist, and lots of fans enjoy discussing them and incorporating them into some larger universe. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm not convinced anyone's, going along those lines, then 100% truly suggesting we in turn toss XxSephirothxX69's lemon fics into a multiverse. We're all reasonable people, here. I think. Maybe.
I was in a surly mood yesterday.

But I think what you're instead suggesting is that they take place in different universes like all the Super Sentai/Kamen Rider series, right? Well, most of the Super Sentai/Kamen Rider series.

And is XxSephirothx69 a real fanfic writer? Because I would believe someone used that name.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by SilverPlaqueVII » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:57 pm

Only thing missing is "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!" from 2008. That could really fit since Goku has a job as a radish farmer. So it is tied with DBS.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by lordsigma » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:22 am

I think separate timelines as I've seen a few other people suggest for the anime is a good way to make everything fit in rather than trying to smash everything into one continuity or try to throw out elements such as DBGT. If you consider Kai as a reboot of the anime, a new timeline, and Super as a sequel to Kai everything works nicely in my opinion. This also gives Toriyama and Toei the freedom to tell the story they want to tell with Super without worrying about trying to preserve continuity with other past Dragon Ball productions, yes even the manga if they choose to depart from it....

Original story timeline: manga chapters
Original anime timeline: DB -> DBZ -> DBGT (including Bardock/Trunks/GT/2008 special)
Rebooted anime timeline: Kai -> Super

Movies 1-13 would always be non canon side stories of the original anime.
BoG and FtF could be described as alternate stories in the Kai/Super story.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by bubibartra » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:44 am

lordsigma wrote:I think separate timelines as I've seen a few other people suggest for the anime is a good way to make everything fit in rather than trying to smash everything into one continuity or try to throw out elements such as DBGT. If you consider Kai as a reboot of the anime, a new timeline, and Super as a sequel to Kai everything works nicely in my opinion. This also gives Toriyama and Toei the freedom to tell the story they want to tell with Super without worrying about trying to preserve continuity with other past Dragon Ball productions, yes even the manga if they choose to depart from it....

Original story timeline: manga chapters
Original anime timeline: DB -> DBZ -> DBGT (including Bardock/Trunks/GT/2008 special)
Rebooted anime timeline: Kai -> Super

Movies 1-13 would always be non canon side stories of the original anime.
BoG and FtF could be described as alternate stories in the Kai/Super story.

GT has many inconsistencies with DBZ and Kid Goku of GT is the kid Goku of "Dragon Ball: The Path to Power" not the kid Goku of the original Dragon Ball anime.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Ushabtis » Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:21 pm

bubibartra wrote:Kid Goku of GT is the kid Goku of "Dragon Ball: The Path to Power" not the kid Goku of the original Dragon Ball anime.
...really, is that true? :crazy:
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Basaku » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:45 pm

lordsigma wrote:I think separate timelines as I've seen a few other people suggest for the anime is a good way to make everything fit in rather than trying to smash everything into one continuity or try to throw out elements such as DBGT.
Trying to squeeze "multiple alternate timelines" is kind of the same as trying to smash everything together into one continuity. The point is in clunky/messy attempt to somehow make everything canon and not leave anything behind. Is it really needed? Most popular concepts from de-canonized movies/shows/games could be very well brought back in new stuff anyway.
SilverPlaqueVII wrote:Only thing missing is "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!" from 2008. That could really fit since Goku has a job as a radish farmer. So it is tied with DBS.
Considering some of the stuff shown already in Super, it's probably gonna be readapted in the show and on itself will not really be compatible with it, only with BOG/ROF

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by lordsigma » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:23 pm

I don't mean even timelines in the same universe per say, I think of it as more of a reboot as other franchises have been. There can be different adaptations of the same original work (the manga.) There are many franchises that have had reboots and different versions of the same story. Kai is a reboot of the anime that is more faithful to the manga than the original DBZ (even though I personally prefer the original DBZ.) As for the ultimate question asked in the subject, I would say Super the anime is the continuation of Kai (which it clearly is, taking over its timeslot, many of the same people involved) and the Super manga is the official continuation of the manga. GT is what it always has been, it is the continuation of the original DBZ anime.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by shadowmaria » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:22 pm

I don't believe it's a retcon (of anything but Battle of Gods or Resurrection F) as such, but more a direct continuation of everything until now (to a degree)

My personal canon is as follows;
So as far as I'm concerned, there's no need for a canon debate, or seperate timelines, or anything like that. You can include the movies or not, same with filler, but Super is definitely a continuation of all subject matter, and I look forward to seeing it continue over the next couple of years :)

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:31 pm

I think now that the show shows even more than before that it does not care about accuracy, we should just finish Super with an obvious connection to GT.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by shadowmaria » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:37 pm

Cetra wrote:I think now that the show shows even more than before that it does not care about accuracy, we should just finish Super with an obvious connection to GT.
The only way Super can't connect to GT is if it retcons EoZ

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by irreality » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:40 pm

Well, no, actually, BoG use of the Dragon Balls to reveal who is the Saiyan God, presumably Pilaf's wish to become younger, and other wishes made with the regular DBs that might happen in the course of the series those all mess up GT, because there are no Dragons for those wishes in GT.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:42 pm

irreality wrote:Well, no, actually, BoG use of the Dragon Balls to reveal who is the Saiyan God, presumably Pilaf's wish to become younger, and other wishes made with the regular DBs that might happen in the course of the series those all mess up GT, because there are no Dragons for those wishes in GT.

Nothing of that actually forbids GT. And even as inconsistency it would not forbid it, because that is how fiction works. I also am annoyed by such things often but by the end of the day it is totally irrelevant for the "existence" in fiction.
Last edited by Cetra on Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by shadowmaria » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:42 pm

irreality wrote:Well, no, actually, BoG use of the Dragon Balls to reveal who is the Saiyan God, presumably Pilaf's wish to become younger, and other wishes made with the regular DBs that might happen in the course of the series those all mess up GT, because there are no Dragons for those wishes in GT.
This can be easily accepted that those wishes created the Shadow Dragons, easily handwaived.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:44 pm

shadowmaria wrote:
irreality wrote:Well, no, actually, BoG use of the Dragon Balls to reveal who is the Saiyan God, presumably Pilaf's wish to become younger, and other wishes made with the regular DBs that might happen in the course of the series those all mess up GT, because there are no Dragons for those wishes in GT.
This can be easily accepted that those wishes created the Shadow Dragons, easily handwaived.
Not to forget the wishes all could stack and count for a specific dragon. Like a karma system, the higher the level, the more fiendish and powerful the dragon.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:46 pm

Why does it matter if GT is ignore anyways? Can we have it be a alternate timeline since most fans will be okay with that.
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