Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun May 10, 2015 2:53 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Beerus and Whis are in the same place they are in the last chapter of the manga.
Well Beerus and Whis have no reason to show up for the 28th Tenkachi Budokai, but you could argue that they could have shown up in GT in order to stop Super Yi Xing Long from destroying the Universe. Super Yi Xing Long was going to destroy everything in his path, I'm pretty sure Beerus and Whis would not allow that to happen. Beerus did end up showing up when Freeza came back in ROF. Yi Xing Long was a bigger threat then Freeza.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Basaku » Sun May 10, 2015 2:54 pm

One_Instance wrote:Trust me, Dragon Ball got rid of continuity a looooong time ago.
Mistakes happen in any big/old franchise. Doesn't mean they're free ticket to disregard any attempt at maintaining continuity.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sintzu » Sun May 10, 2015 2:55 pm

One_Instance wrote:Trust me, Dragon Ball got rid of continuity a looooong time ago.
When did Toriyama stop following his continuity ?
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Herms » Sun May 10, 2015 3:01 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I'm all for the "smash continuity with a hammer" option johnboy1 brought up.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by One_Instance » Sun May 10, 2015 3:03 pm

Basaku wrote:
One_Instance wrote:Trust me, Dragon Ball got rid of continuity a looooong time ago.
Mistakes happen in any big/old franchise. Doesn't mean they're free ticket to disregard any attempt at maintaining continuity.
I'm not saying we should throw out continuity all together, but there are so many big inconsistencies that some people don't even acknowledge Dragon Ball as having a canon sequence of events.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sintzu » Sun May 10, 2015 3:06 pm

One_Instance wrote:There are so many big inconsistencies that some people don't even acknowledge Dragon Ball as having a canon sequence of events.
Such as ?
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Sun May 10, 2015 3:12 pm

Basaku wrote:
Cetra wrote:Property is ruled with rights, not logical connections of a story, even if continuity errors are without a doubt not always easy to accept.
Sure, TOEI/Toriyama can keep saying "GT is canon" forever regardless of any inconsistiences and as property owners it's gonan be technically canon. But that will hardly change the fact that no one will really take it seriously. When you have ROF changing how Goku/Vegeta look in SS form permanently there's really no actual synergy here with GT.
Fans can and can't take seriously whatever they want. If you want to have a say in it that actually matters, let money speak and make the franchise your property. Other than that you and me taking seriously anything is worth nothing. So only the first part of what you said really matters. If I invent something and you say "I don't want to count that" it does not matter for my story as you do not own any part of it. And there is no necessity in repeating that. It wouldn't be any different with something you own and someone who does not own it claims something.
Last edited by Cetra on Sun May 10, 2015 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by One_Instance » Sun May 10, 2015 3:13 pm

sintzu wrote:
One_Instance wrote:There are so many big inconsistencies that some people don't even acknowledge Dragon Ball as having a canon sequence of events.
Such as ?
Such as these. Just as a heads up, I'm pretty sure this list includes dub mistakes and some of them are very minor mistakes.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun May 10, 2015 3:17 pm

Cetra wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Cetra wrote:As long as it connects with GT I don't mind what happens.
The last 2 movies threw Gt out the window.
No, they don't.
GT and the manga timeline can't exist with each other. Heck even Xenoverse considers GT to be a alternate timeline since Future Trunks mention other timelines where created when he back in timeline.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Sun May 10, 2015 3:19 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: GT and the manga timeline can't exist with each other. Heck even Xenoverse considers GT to be a alternate timeline since Future Trunks mention other timelines where created when he back in timeline.
I love how you ignored the rest of my text to reply with something that was already answered but it won't change anything. Anything that does not fit will fit the moment Akira Toriyama say "it does", no matter the logic. Logic of Law > Logic of Continuity in Fiction.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun May 10, 2015 3:22 pm

I'm surprise no one ever brought up Jaco and GT together. In GT, where the hell is Jaco since he would likely notice the Black Star Dragon Balls and Dr. Myuu's actions with Bebi. He took into action when Freeza came back to Earth.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Basaku » Sun May 10, 2015 3:22 pm

Cetra wrote:Other than that you and me taking seriously anything is worth nothing.
Not realy, it has power/value. Multiple other franchises already showed it. Nolan's Batman didn't happen because Warner just thought like rebooting the franchise, it happened because of terrible fan reception of Batman & Robin. Star Wars Holiday Special, made BY George Lucas himself wasn't included in new canon because of low standing in the fanbase. Fan popularity is the reason new DB movies focus mostly on Goku & Vegeta. Point is simple, fan opinion can influence what ends up being official.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sintzu » Sun May 10, 2015 3:28 pm

One_Instance wrote:
sintzu wrote:
One_Instance wrote:There are so many big inconsistencies that some people don't even acknowledge Dragon Ball as having a canon sequence of events.
Such as ?
Such as these. Just as a heads up, I'm pretty sure this list includes dub mistakes and some of them are very minor mistakes.
The ones I read were either plot points used later such as planet Vegeta's destruction or filler such as Tien&co going back in time to the Saiyan's planet.

Sure there are small things here and there which is expected in a long running story like DB but noting so big that fans are going to start saying DB doesn't follow any rules.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Sun May 10, 2015 3:32 pm

Basaku wrote:
Cetra wrote:Other than that you and me taking seriously anything is worth nothing.
Not realy, it has power/value. Multiple other franchises already showed it. Nolan's Batman didn't happen because Warner just thought like rebooting the franchise, it happened because of terrible fan reception of Batman & Robin. Star Wars Holiday Special, made BY George Lucas himself wasn't included in new canon because of low standing in the fanbase. Fan popularity is the reason new DB movies focus mostly on Goku & Vegeta. Point is simple, fan opinion can influence what ends up being official.
It has nothing fixed, you are following an incomplete thought. The "power", as you call it, is only as strong as the author decides to follow it. That means, if he decides to not follow logical continuity, fans say "Lol no" and he says "Lol yes" then it totally is "Lol yes". You can decide what you take seriously but the author can decide what he takes seriously, therefore the "power" you speak of only exists as much as the owner of the franchise wants. So basically your explanations are right but not the first line as it is incomplete.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by One_Instance » Sun May 10, 2015 3:34 pm

sintzu wrote:The ones I read were either plot points used later such as planet Vegeta's destruction or filler such as Tenshinhan&co going back in time to the Saiyan's planet.

Sure there are small things here and there which is expected in a long running story like DB but noting so big that fans are going to start saying DB doesn't follow any rules.
Well, I've seen plenty of people say things like that before. It's predominately on the dub side of the fandom, but it's out there alright.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Basaku » Sun May 10, 2015 3:42 pm

Cetra wrote:The "power", as you call it, is only as strong as the author decides to follow it.
Never said it wasn't the case, but you seem convinced Toriyama is compeltly immune to popularity/fan feedback factors. He's not, neither is Toei, the second party that has deciding say in here, ain't just Toriyama.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Sun May 10, 2015 3:46 pm

Basaku wrote:
Cetra wrote:The "power", as you call it, is only as strong as the author decides to follow it.
Never said it wasn't the case, but you seem convinced Toriyama is compeltly immune to popularity/fan feedback factors. He's not, neither is Toei, the second party that has deciding say in here, ain't just Toriyama.
Of course it is both Toei and Akira Toriyama. And when you say "it can be" you are right. It is just, when they don't want to listen, they have all right in the world not to and continue writing the story the way they want.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by ParkerAL » Sun May 10, 2015 4:26 pm

My ideal DB Super scenario is an continuation of the manga from its last chapter that completely ignores GT, the pre-Battle of Gods movies and all anime filler. The characters and stories from those continuities have their place in the franchise, but they shouldn't hold the new series back creatively. If I were Toriyama, I wouldn't want to have what I can do in a new series limited by the plot of an almost 20-year-old show that I was barely involved with at the time.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Theophrastus » Sun May 10, 2015 4:28 pm

sintzu wrote:
One_Instance wrote:Trust me, Dragon Ball got rid of continuity a looooong time ago.
When did Toriyama stop following his continuity ?
If one wants to be petty about it, Toriyama deciding that Saiyans do, in fact, need to breathe despite child Goku taking Boss Rabbit and his goons to the goddamn moon on the Nyoi-bo is one of the more flagrant "No, no, that totally never happened" moments in the series.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Dyno » Sun May 10, 2015 4:40 pm

Theophrastus wrote:If one wants to be petty about it, Toriyama deciding that Saiyans do, in fact, need to breathe despite child Goku taking Boss Rabbit and his goons to the goddamn moon on the Nyoi-bo is one of the more flagrant "No, no, that totally never happened" moments in the series.
Not like Toriyama remembered that scene when he stated Saiyans need to breathe, though.

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