Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by One_Instance » Sun May 10, 2015 4:41 pm

Theophrastus wrote:
sintzu wrote:
One_Instance wrote:Trust me, Dragon Ball got rid of continuity a looooong time ago.
When did Toriyama stop following his continuity ?
If one wants to be petty about it, Toriyama deciding that Saiyans do, in fact, need to breathe despite child Goku taking Boss Rabbit and his goons to the goddamn moon on the Nyoi-bo is one of the more flagrant "No, no, that totally never happened" moments in the series.
Yeah, not to mention he can breathe in space at the end of BoG. Toriyama seems to throw out continuity whenever it's convenient.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun May 10, 2015 4:43 pm

Goku was on the moon for a small moment anways.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by One_Instance » Sun May 10, 2015 4:49 pm

Thinking about it know, and this is getting a little off topic, Goku got to the moon and back in less than a minute, but in the anime, at least, it seems to take a while for Goku to reach Kami and he was already starting from the top of Karin's tower. Is that an inconsistency created by the anime?

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Dyno » Sun May 10, 2015 5:04 pm

One_Instance wrote:Yeah, not to mention he can breathe in space at the end of BoG. Toriyama seems to throw out continuity whenever it's convenient.
One would argue by stating some real-world facts, like he was within ozone layer, or something like that. And I disagree, Bardock was the first Saiyan seen outside of a planet (in canon materials, of course). That wasn't a convenient moment, you know.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by One_Instance » Sun May 10, 2015 5:07 pm

Dyno wrote:
One_Instance wrote:Yeah, not to mention he can breathe in space at the end of BoG. Toriyama seems to throw out continuity whenever it's convenient.
One would argue by stating some real-world facts, like he was within ozone layer, or something like that. And I disagree, Bardock was the first Saiyan seen outside of a planet (in canon materials, of course). That wasn't a convenient moment, you know.
Yeah, I used to go by that, but the oxygen is so thin that high up he'd barely be able to talk, let alone screaming at the top of his lungs.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun May 10, 2015 5:18 pm

I'd honestly prefer Super to be a continuation of the manga and Toriyama's movie. But if Toriyama went the route that johnboy1 proposed, I wouldn't mind either. Continuity has always been Dragon Ball's kryptonite and I could care less if Toriyama went "Screw consistency!". Again.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by bubibartra » Sun May 10, 2015 5:38 pm

Basaku wrote:
Cetra wrote:Other than that you and me taking seriously anything is worth nothing.
Not realy, it has power/value. Multiple other franchises already showed it. Nolan's Batman didn't happen because Warner just thought like rebooting the franchise, it happened because of terrible fan reception of Batman & Robin. Star Wars Holiday Special, made BY George Lucas himself wasn't included in new canon because of low standing in the fanbase. Fan popularity is the reason new DB movies focus mostly on Goku & Vegeta. Point is simple, fan opinion can influence what ends up being official.

yes ok but goku and Vegeta are popular in America, Japan and Europe

Dragon ball GT is only popular in America and latinoamerica...

in Europe and japan, GT is a fault...
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Sun May 10, 2015 5:58 pm

bubibartra wrote: yes ok but goku and Vegeta are popular in America, Japan and Europe

Dragon ball GT is only popular in America and latinoamerica...

in Europe and japan, GT is a fault...

Not in my Europe.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Neon Z » Sun May 10, 2015 6:22 pm

johnboy1 wrote:Quite frankly, I hope the new series references Tullece, Broly, Slug, Metal Cooler, and also foreshadows a bunch of GT stuff. Hell, throw in a direct reference to Cross Epoch while we're at it. The best way to get rid of the continuity debates is to smash the continuity with a fucking hammer.
That sounds like a continuity lover's paradise comparable to American comics, just one that would annoy manga purists.

Trying to tie Super into GT would just hurt Super itself. It'd basically mean that nothing relevant could happen there and they'd need to build "But... there's a way to undo this!" clauses into everything. Just letting Super progress into the future by itself, doing whatever they feel like, without worrying about matching an old tv series that at one point was supposed to be the anime's future is the actual continuity free approach.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by xmysticgohanx » Sun May 10, 2015 6:54 pm

GT was never part of the manga canon anyway
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun May 10, 2015 7:46 pm

If Toei wanted GT to still be apart of the series then they would told Toriyama no on his god forms, and his other changes to the series. GT is nothing more then a alternate timeline to the franchise now. Toriyama has full control on the series when writing the franchise these days. GT can never fit into the timeline of the manga before the newer films came out since most of GT is based around anime filler.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by One_Instance » Sun May 10, 2015 10:39 pm

bubibartra wrote:
Basaku wrote: Not realy, it has power/value. Multiple other franchises already showed it. Nolan's Batman didn't happen because Warner just thought like rebooting the franchise, it happened because of terrible fan reception of Batman & Robin. Star Wars Holiday Special, made BY George Lucas himself wasn't included in new canon because of low standing in the fanbase. Fan popularity is the reason new DB movies focus mostly on Goku & Vegeta. Point is simple, fan opinion can influence what ends up being official.

yes ok but goku and Vegeta are popular in America, Japan and Europe

Dragon ball GT is only popular in America and latinoamerica...

in Europe and japan, GT is a fault...
People from everywhere like GT, just as people from everywhere dislike it. Usually, people who like it are in the minority, but there are still people from every corner of the world that enjoy GT. Well, at least where it's been aired.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun May 10, 2015 10:53 pm

Super should be a continuation of the manga and Toriyama's movies only. If it ties everything including GT together, it's only going to succeed in making GT itself look incredibly stupid.
Cetra wrote:I love how you ignored the rest of my text to reply with something that was already answered but it won't change anything. Anything that does not fit will fit the moment Akira Toriyama say "it does", no matter the logic. Logic of Law > Logic of Continuity in Fiction.
Hilariously, you're ignoring most of his post and even adding in a bit that's utterly self-defeating to your whole position. This "logic of law" thing you keep posting is actually hurting your argument as opposed to helping it - Toriyama never said "it does", and as noted in the post you yourself quoted, we have an official product that treats GT as being in its own timeline, isolated from everything else. There's your law.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Rocketman » Sun May 10, 2015 10:55 pm

The "smash continuity" thing would be neat if it wasn't just being used to wank Goku and Vegeta.

"Smash continuity! Throw out your headcanons, we're doing whatever we want!"

"Oh neat, so it'll be like the fighting games where everybody is on a roughly even playing field?"

"Pfffahahahahaha! No, but we WILL give even more transformations to Goku!"

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun May 10, 2015 11:09 pm

Marlowe89 wrote: If it ties everything including GT together, it's only going to succeed in making GT itself look incredibly stupid.
Has not it been for the last 19 years? I mean the Super 17 saga to me was when GT felt like that they where officially out of ideas. Toei was just drawing straws at time.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun May 10, 2015 11:26 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:Has not it been for the last 19 years? I mean the Super 17 saga to me was when GT felt like that they where officially out of ideas. Toei was just drawing straws at time.
Nah. GT certainly has its share of problems, but I never thought it was incomprehensibly bad - which it absolutely would be if given the kind of laughable retroactive justitications along the lines of "Hell is suddenly completely different, also Freeza somehow can't transform because HELL LOL and there's no sign/mention of Super Saiyan God or its power anywhere not to mention that Toriyama specifically said Goku has no need for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 anymore but GUESS WHAT THEY'RE BACK! Oh and, uh, Pilaf is old now".

Thankfully, that won't happen and everyone knows it. I think people are simply grasping for straws at this point and it's more obvious now than it ever was.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Mon May 11, 2015 2:25 am

Marlowe89 wrote: Hilariously, you're ignoring most of his post and even adding in a bit that's utterly self-defeating to your whole position. This "logic of law" thing you keep posting is actually hurting your argument as opposed to helping it - Toriyama never said "it does", and as noted in the post you yourself quoted, we have an official product that treats GT as being in its own timeline, isolated from everything else. There's your law.
I have not ignored anything important for the context but if you want try making up any arguments like I have seen with the rest of your posts. It will help you as much as it does for the rest of youtubers and all who make up stuff like "GT is not canon is sucks, GT is not canon, Toriyama said it, GT is not canon, it was not by Toriyama, GT is not canon it has inconsistencies, et cetera".

The "Logic of law" I keep posting has never actually countered my whole argument because no owner, as you yourself said, "it does". You are missing an important fact here though. If someone does not say "it does" it is not automatically "not" the case. There is the state of being undefined. When it comes to intention itself, GT was made to be a continuation so you cannot even just come out and say "GT was never made by an owner with the intention of not being part of something". As for your Xenoverse, ány argument is nothingness as videogames have nothing to do with continuity. So here you have your reason why some parts of things can be ignored in certain cases. They are not relevant for certain context.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by sintzu » Mon May 11, 2015 2:44 am

Lord Beerus wrote:Continuity has always been Dragon Ball's kryptonite.
That's because of the fan base not the continuity itself which is pretty simple when you break it down.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Mon May 11, 2015 2:45 am

I'm not arguing that Xenoverse is actually within the continuity of the manga or anything, because honestly there was probably never any intention for it to be treated as such. It uses said material in its continuity, but does not belong to theirs. Stil, cross media storytelling is something used commonly in this day and age. There's no point in being outright dismissive because of the media a story is told through. If they make a game with a new plot and Toriyama or Toei want to use it in a future work, there is nothing preventing that.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon May 11, 2015 3:22 am

Funny how some people get made if GT is consider to be a AU or set in a different timeline, but everyone else is okay with DB Movies 1-4 and DBZ Movies 1-13 being set in their own worlds. GT is not much different then those films if you ask me. They are all created by Toei without Toriyama being apart of the story after all.
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