Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Zephyr » Mon May 11, 2015 5:50 am

Rocketman wrote:The "smash continuity" thing would be neat if it wasn't just being used to wank Goku and Vegeta.
So your enjoyment is entirely hinged on which characters get used the most? I really don't understand that. I don't really have a "favorite character" in Dragon Ball, but if I had to choose it would probably be kid Goku, Mr. Satan, and Tao Pai Pai. Kid Goku was wanked to hell and back in GT, and I didn't really enjoy that very much, from what I remember; Mr. Satan isn't being wanked at all in this new material; Tao began jobbing as soon as he was introduced. And yet, I enjoyed the hell out of the 23rd TB, the Cell arc filler, and the new material.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't understand what one character or another getting the spotlight has to do with the conceptual merits of the rights-holders putting a fork in head-canons and continuity debates.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon May 11, 2015 7:54 am

I really don't think they would announce this series right after these two movies and not have them tie together somehow. But I could be wrong.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon May 11, 2015 8:36 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
Cetra wrote:I love how you ignored the rest of my text to reply with something that was already answered but it won't change anything. Anything that does not fit will fit the moment Akira Toriyama say "it does", no matter the logic. Logic of Law > Logic of Continuity in Fiction.
Hilariously, you're ignoring most of his post and even adding in a bit that's utterly self-defeating to your whole position. This "logic of law" thing you keep posting is actually hurting your argument as opposed to helping it - Toriyama never said "it does", and as noted in the post you yourself quoted, we have an official product that treats GT as being in its own timeline, isolated from everything else. There's your law.
Both of you are completely out of line with the way you're addressing each other. Account warnings come next. You don't want those.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon May 11, 2015 9:52 am

I'll phrase this as politely as I can:

My point is that to treat Toei's exclusive works (including the movies and GT) as being in the same continuity as everything else that comprises the overall franchise on the basis that it is an "official product" - despite not having been created by the manga's author - while ignoring other stances that are officially licensed themselves is an example of selective reasoning and inconsistency. People are using the "rights and ownership" stance only when it's convenient for their argument because they're flat-out dismissing other things that fall under the exact same bracket. Either dismiss everything that isn't specifically acknowledged by Toriyama or accept all of it because it's a licensed product. I don't see any in-betweens here that make sense.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Rocketman » Mon May 11, 2015 10:33 am

Zephyr wrote:I guess what I'm saying is, I don't understand what one character or another getting the spotlight has to do with the conceptual merits of the rights-holders putting a fork in head-canons and continuity debates.
Because the only headcanons getting wrecked are the ones who wanted/believed that people besides Goku and Vegeta could be useful. They aren't shaking up anything, they're just using it as an excuse to do what they've always done - depower the supporting cast.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Mon May 11, 2015 10:39 am

Marlowe89 wrote:I'll phrase this as politely as I can:

My point is that to treat Toei's exclusive works (including the movies and GT) as being in the same continuity as everything else that comprises the overall franchise on the basis that it is an "official product" - despite not having been created by the manga's author - while ignoring other stances that are officially licensed themselves is an example of selective reasoning and inconsistency. People are using the "rights and ownership" stance only when it's convenient for their argument because they're flat-out dismissing other things that fall under the exact same bracket. Either dismiss everything that isn't specifically acknowledged by Toriyama or accept all of it because it's a licensed product. I don't see any in-betweens here that make sense.
Alright, nice then.

I do understand your point of people seeking for "convenient" aspects to defend their argument. However, you cannot use the argument "you just use the creations of an owner the way you want but not this part of the creation" for exactly one reason here: Dragon Ball has never been intended to be continued in its story as a videogame and it has never been announced to do so. This is about an actual continuation, not some minor details that are mentioned in a videogame. On the contrary, many people go out and act like Studio Toei would not have a say in canonicity about Dragon Ball but then it is suddenly fine for them when, in their eyes, Studio Toei has said, part x is not canonical? Now that seems a bit too convenient for the other side, don't you think? As things are, when they flat-out show that they intended something to overwrite the story by something that actually has ever contributed something to it in a serious way - the manga and anime that is - exactly then it is officially not canonical. You are a bit mistake here by thinking I am in a "it is canonical" stance, therefore you try to argue against it. Just as people think it is necessary to point out there are consistency errors, as if no one would notice that by themselves - but that is not how it is. I am saying, it is what it is when they say it or unequivocally show it. And as Dragon Ball is, it is not unequivocally shown.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon May 11, 2015 11:48 am

Cetra wrote:Dragon Ball has never been intended to be continued in its story as a videogame and it has never been announced to do so.
Except Xenoverse does continue the story and was even advertised to establish "the future of the Dragon Ball world", so that whole point is moot. Even then, it has nothing to do with the fact that there is an official stance regarding GT's relation to the overall continuity from an official product. Neither the anime nor the video games are created by the author of the original medium from which Dragon Ball was established (that would be the manga), so why does the anime suddenly have more authority than something like Xenoverse when neither one of them are directly associated with the source material itself? Why fall back on the "official" argument if you're only going to handpick certain mediums that aren't associated with the source material while singling out others? That doesn't make any sense to me.

In general, this is exactly what I mean by selective reasoning. "The anime isn't the source material but it's valid because it's official" isn't consistent with "This video game isn't the source material and it's also totally invalid despite being official because reasons".
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Mon May 11, 2015 1:12 pm

Marlowe89 wrote: Except Xenoverse does continue the story and was even advertised to establish "the future of the Dragon Ball world", so that whole point is moot.
How does it continue the story in the same way GT does? GT was made to continue it, in a way most fans would know of the continuation - as Dragon Ball, while having videogames is mostly known as manga and anime. The entire "establish the Dragon Ball world" sounds very much like simply an expansion of the franchise for me, not taking actual continuity into consideration. If that is really Toei's intention so, then so be it. But it does not reall sound like that any more than Star Wars also expands a world and in the end is worth nothing for the actual continuity.
Marlowe89 wrote: Even then, it has nothing to do with the fact that there is an official stance regarding GT's relation to the overall continuity from an official product.
Which product? The videogame? If the videogame cannot be taken seriously then it very well is important to say that it cannot be taken into account.
Marlowe89 wrote: Neither the anime nor the video games are created by the author of the original medium from which Dragon Ball was established (that would be the manga), so why does the anime suddenly have more authority than something like Xenoverse when neither one of them are directly associated with the source material itself? That doesn't make any sense to me.
It has nothing to do with what an author makes or not. I can pretty much refer to my first answer when it comes to that. When Dragon Ball ended in 1995 people mainly knew it as a manga and an anime. Even today that is the case. GT was made with the intention to continue the series - even brought Akira Toriyama to the (while he was just joking around, but at least) statement that with it existing he might continue the manga. Have you ever seen a game in all those years apart from Xenoverse that has actually had the intention to at least hint an actual connection? I didn't. So the doubt about a game being taken serious is very much justified while the anime is the main material - after the manga - from which we at least know that they intended to continue it. I seem to repeat myself but that is very important.
Marlowe89 wrote: In general, this is exactly what I mean by selective reasoning. "The anime isn't the source material but it's valid because it's official" isn't consistent with "This video game isn't the source material and somehow it's totally invalid despite also being official because reasons".
As mentioned, it has nothing to do with being selective. You cannot just generalize things that seem similiar to you when in a certain context some important differences have to be considered. Just as you mention "not being created by the original author" yet you directly refer to something in a video game which you think to state something as not canonical. That is selective. You take into consideration how important the author's word is - even more important from what I read, but maybe I just misread - but then once Xenoverse is mentioned, Toei's word is enough for you. The entire part where an anime exists to continue the story where Battle of Gods was said to take place before GT and all that stuff does suddenly have no value to you. I do not about you but I do not think that is fair because if I'd actually knew, something neither I do, nor you, that Toei really made Xenoverse as a statement, then I'd accept it. Everything else is premature conclusion - because, while you are so convinced about GT having no relevance, what would you actually do when Super connects with it? Forget your thought "It won't", what will you do then? Not accept it?

I, for my part, can when Toei actually one day answers a question and says "well, GT no longer is part of the same continuity" - and we know it is meant like that and not just a thought of fans - then I'll be the one to say "oh, well, unfortunate but okay". However, will you do the same thing when the exact opposite happens? Or will you react like people did when they saw Super Saiyajin Gohan and claimed it to be impossible even though his possibility to transformed was even stated in vol. 41 but just ignored by fans who saw Gohan in GT - and Battle of Gods (not to mention that they can write whatever they want anyway)? This is being selective. Ignoring stuff that should be considered in the same context. Not some videogame that was never announced to bring all official answer that we ever wanted and which should suddenly be taken as serious as some form of main media like manga and anime when it comes to story. I just want some fairness. Why don't you just wait for what happens?
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Basaku » Mon May 11, 2015 1:26 pm

Cetra wrote:GT was made with the intention to continue the series - even brought Akira Toriyama to the (while he was just joking around, but at least) statement that with it existing he might continue the manga. Have you ever seen a game in all those years apart from Xenoverse that has actually had the intention to at least hint an actual connection? I didn't.
It's called Dragon Ball Online which was more Toriyama than GT ever was and Xenoverse recycles its plot. :think:

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Mon May 11, 2015 1:28 pm

Basaku wrote:
Cetra wrote:GT was made with the intention to continue the series - even brought Akira Toriyama to the (while he was just joking around, but at least) statement that with it existing he might continue the manga. Have you ever seen a game in all those years apart from Xenoverse that has actually had the intention to at least hint an actual connection? I didn't.
It's called Dragon Ball Online which was more Toriyama than GT ever was and Xenoverse recycles its plot. :think:
Yes, I have heard of Dragon Ball Online. Was that ever meant to be an actual continuation? From what I know it is not even known that much worldwide. Sounds like wasted opportunity for an official continuation. I counted Xenoverse and Online as pretty much the same thing because of Trunks, Towa, et cetera.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Basaku » Mon May 11, 2015 1:39 pm

Cetra wrote: Yes, I have heard of Dragon Ball Online. Was that ever meant to be an actual continuation? From what I know it is not even known that much worldwide. Sounds like wasted opportunity for an official continuation. I counted Xenoverse and Online as pretty much the same thing because of Trunks, Towa, et cetera.
Just because it flopped it doesn't change that Toriyama was responsible for its lore. And as the original author along with Toei Licensing blessing sure it would looks like it should count as official material no?

My point is simple. If this was 2007, I wouldn't argue against GT's canon/official status as clearly Toei treated it as one on all fronts and Toriyama didn't mind at the very least. But we're in 2015, Toei has allowed multiple new lore entries in the franchise with Toriyama's heavy involvement that essentially ignore GT and aren't concerned with consistiency of it in the slightest. Online/Xenoverse, 2 new movies and Super coming soon. I think it's is clear that neither Toriyama or Toei are particularly concerned about writing GT out of the canon even if they haven't released an official "totally not canon" statement yet
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Dyno » Mon May 11, 2015 1:39 pm

Cetra wrote:Yes, I have heard of Dragon Ball Online. Was that ever meant to be an actual continuation? From what I know it is not even known that much worldwide. Sounds like wasted opportunity for an official continuation. I counted Xenoverse and Online as pretty much the same thing because of Trunks, Towa, et cetera.
Dragon Ball Online's plot runs along with the Dragon Ball manga, for example: During Namek saga when Ginyu is trying to switch body with Kakarot, from "behind the scenes" Patrol Trunks and Evil Bardock are trying to stop this without getting any connection with the "main series" (from the point us as viewers saw). Everything in Online is seen from "behind the scenes". Even though, there is the Dragon Ball Online timeline, that is where all the information, such as "Son Gohan wrote a book which get the humans into the martial arts" comes from. It details everything we know, and goes even further beyond, to the Age 2000, if I recall right.

There are some topics exclusively for Dragon Ball Online and what that game adds to the Dragon Ball franchise here on Kanzenshuu, don't know how to find them, though. :lol:

Xenoverse was based on Online, that's the difference.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Neon Z » Mon May 11, 2015 1:44 pm

There's also the official site for the 30th anniversary of the franchise which doesn't acknowledge GT in its timeline.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Cetra » Mon May 11, 2015 1:44 pm

Basaku wrote:
Cetra wrote: Yes, I have heard of Dragon Ball Online. Was that ever meant to be an actual continuation? From what I know it is not even known that much worldwide. Sounds like wasted opportunity for an official continuation. I counted Xenoverse and Online as pretty much the same thing because of Trunks, Towa, et cetera.
Just because it flopped it doesn't change that Toriyama was responsible for its lore. And as the original author along with Toei Licensing blessing sure it would looks like it should count as official material no?

My point is simple. If this was 2007, I wouldn't argue against GT's canon/official status as clearly Toei treated it as one on all fronts and Toriyama didn't mind at the very least. But we're in 2015, Toei has allowed multiple new lore entries in the franchise with Toriyama's heavy involvement that essentially ignore GT and aren't concerned with consistiency of it in the slightest. Online/Xenoverse, 2 new movies and Super coming soon. I think it's is clear that neither Toriyama or Toei are particularly concerned about writing GT out of the canon even if they haven't released an official "totally not canon" statement yet
It that is the case, so be it. I will be the one waiting however because if something that is actually the opposite of that happens, I surely will not be the one to say "what? but how?" I prefer to stay on the side of being honest and say, everything could be instead of making claims that roam the internet for years.
Neon Z wrote:There's also the official site for the 30th anniversary of the franchise which doesn't acknowledge GT in its timeline.
From what I have seen that was just an "until EoZ" timeline, so that could be the case. Other things also seem to not have been included.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Analytical Delusion » Mon May 11, 2015 1:54 pm

I don't think Toei would ever make a statement that GT or whichever other portion of the franchise is "not canon". There would be absolutely nothing to gain, since merchandise is still being produced/marketed/sold under that brand, from my understanding (particularly in video games, with the Heroes games and such). I also don't know if it would make much sense for Toriyama to comment on its place in the continuity any further than he already has (though the likelihood is greater than Toei saying something, I'd say).

As for the OP, I think we'll know this based on what timespan is selected for the beginning of Super. If it truly is literally after Buu is defeated, or following the epilogue, it's probably a continuation of Z/Kai. If it follows the movie, I think it'd have to be a continuation of the manga. I'd be very surprised if elements of the franchise other than the manga and latest movies are referenced in Super if it begins after RoF and before the epilogue.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Basaku » Mon May 11, 2015 1:57 pm

Cetra wrote: It that is the case, so be it. I will be the one waiting however because if something that is actually the opposite of that happens, I surely will not be the one to say "what? but how?" I prefer to stay on the side of being honest and say, everything could be instead of making claims that roam the internet for years.
It's a perfectly resonable approach, but it's not like you or me will change the already-widely-common internet opinion that GT ain't canon. Each new stuff that comes out and condradicts it further only adds fuel to the fire. Frankly, as much as fans are to 'blame' for asuming something, Toei/Toriyama share part of 'responsibility' for it. Since around 2008 they continuosly release stuff that ignores GT whithout official clarification on the canon issues. Many say they're simply trying to eat the cake and keep it so they can profit from GT merch while de facto creating new continuation that they know cannot exist in the same timeline as GT.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon May 11, 2015 1:58 pm

Cetra wrote:How does it continue the story in the same way GT does? GT was made to continue it, in a way most fans would know of the continuation - as Dragon Ball, while having videogames is mostly known as manga and anime. The entire "establish the Dragon Ball world" sounds very much like simply an expansion of the franchise for me, not taking actual continuity into consideration. If that is really Toei's intention so, then so be it. But it does not reall sound like that any more than Star Wars also expands a world and in the end is worth nothing for the actual continuity.
Have you played Xenoverse? It isn't merely an expansion of the Dragon Ball universe since Goku specifically participates in events following BoG (see: Demigra), but even if it was, you can't compare this to a franchise like Star Wars where it's specifically noted that EU material isn't as valid as the source material. Xenoverse continues the story as much as GT does and there's no reason to think otherwise.
Which product? The videogame? If the videogame cannot be taken seriously then it very well is important to say that it cannot be taken into account.
And, again, you've yet to provide a sufficient reason for why the video game is somehow less important than the anime, neither of which are associated with the original manga. It's completely inconsistent, completely arbitrary and completely unfair of you to declare that Xenoverse can't be taken seriously while at the same time declaring that the anime should be taken just as seriously as the manga even though both are supplemental to the source material. That doesn't make sense at all as far as I'm concerned.
As mentioned, it has nothing to do with being selective. You cannot just generalize things that seem similiar to you when in a certain context some important differences have to be considered. Just as you mention "not being created by the original author" yet you directly refer to something in a video game which you think to state something as not canonical. That is selective. You take into consideration how important the author's word is - even more important from what I read, but maybe I just misread - but then once Xenoverse is mentioned, Toei's word is enough for you. The entire part where an anime exists to continue the story where Battle of Gods was said to take place before GT and all that stuff does suddenly have no value to you. I do not about you but I do not think that is fair because if I'd actually knew, something neither I do, nor you, that Toei really made Xenoverse as a statement, then I'd accept it. Everything else is premature conclusion - because, while you are so convinced about GT having no relevance, what would you actually do when Super connects with it? Forget your thought "It won't", what will you do then? Not accept it?
You're misreading me, actually. I was taking both stances into consideration, one of which treats Toriyama's works as being most important and the other of which treats all official media as being on equal terms. Neither stance can consistently place GT in the same continuity as whatever Toriyama is familiar with, because even in the latter stance, there is an official part of the franchise that explicitly treats GT as being in its own contained universe/timeline. I don't think there's any way around it, really. That's not being selective, that's taking everything including GT, Xenoverse and anything else into consideration. There are no "important differences to be considered" because they're both continuations that exist independently of the source material. It really is that simple.
I, for my part, can when Toei actually one day answers a question and says "well, GT no longer is part of the same continuity" - and we know it is meant like that and not just a thought of fans - then I'll be the one to say "oh, well, unfortunate but okay". However, will you do the same thing when the exact opposite happens?
Sure, but I'm fairly confident that it won't, given the evidence I've already noted here in this discussion. The current story, as far as it is officially recognized, is that GT exists in an alternate timeline. That story can easily be retconned, but until it is, I'm sticking what was officially established.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Dyno » Mon May 11, 2015 2:00 pm

Analytical Delusion wrote:I don't think Toei would ever make a statement that GT or whichever other portion of the franchise is "not canon".
Are you sure?

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon May 11, 2015 2:04 pm

Analytical Delusion wrote:I don't think Toei would ever make a statement that GT or whichever other portion of the franchise is "not canon". There would be absolutely nothing to gain, since merchandise is still being produced/marketed/sold under that brand, from my understanding (particularly in video games, with the Heroes games and such).
Merchandise for GT will always be made since GT has character designs that are popular with fans like SSj4 Goku and SSj4 Vegeta. Even if Super becomes a direct sequel to DBZ and does not follow DBGT then GT merchandise will still be made. Even if Super takes place after ROF and before the 28th Tenkachi Budokai then GT is still likely going to be view as a alternate timeline series. The new movies makes it hard for both them and GT to exist together in one timeline.
Sure, but I'm fairly confident that it won't, given the evidence I've already noted here in this discussion. The current story, as far as it is officially recognized, is that GT exists in an alternate timeline. That story can easily be retconned, but until it is, I'm sticking to my guns.
GT is likely view as an alternate timeline at this point. I think Toriyama was asked about GT again then he would likely say it's a side story like he did over a decade ago or calls it a show taken place in it's own dimension similar how he views DBZ Movies 1-13.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Analytical Delusion » Mon May 11, 2015 2:09 pm

Dyno wrote:
Analytical Delusion wrote:I don't think Toei would ever make a statement that GT or whichever other portion of the franchise is "not canon".
Are you sure?

"@komori_mayo ありがとう!厳密にいうと原作漫画の「最終話」と「その直前回」の間です。GTは原作にないからね~。"
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Very interesting, hadn't seen that. Thanks for sharing. I don't know that I'd consider that an official statement from Toei as a company though (that being said, I don't personally consider GT or any of the Toei-only content to be part of the main continuity/canon, though that's my personal preference).
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Analytical Delusion wrote:I don't think Toei would ever make a statement that GT or whichever other portion of the franchise is "not canon". There would be absolutely nothing to gain, since merchandise is still being produced/marketed/sold under that brand, from my understanding (particularly in video games, with the Heroes games and such).
Merchandise for GT will always be made since GT has character designs that are popular with fans like SSj4 Goku and SSj4 Vegeta. Even if Super becomes a direct sequel to DBZ and does not follow DBGT then GT merchandise will still be made. Even if Super takes place after ROF and before the 28th Tenkachi Budokai then GT is still likely going to be view as a alternate timeline series. The new movies makes it hard for both them and GT to exist together in one timeline.
Agreed
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