Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Basaku » Mon May 11, 2015 2:10 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote: Merchandise for GT will always be made since GT has character designs that are popular with fans like SSj4 Goku and SSj4 Vegeta. Even if Super becomes a direct sequel to DBZ and does not follow DBGT then GT merchandise will still be made. Even if Super takes place after ROF and before the 28th Tenkachi Budokai then GT is still likely going to be view as a alternate timeline series. The new movies makes it hard for both them and GT to exist together in one timeline.
There's also 3rd option - Toei will 'transfer' most popular GT designs into Super. Maybe backed by different/reworked lore and branding (Super Oozaru instead of SSJ4 which by all means is what it already was in GT despite SSJ name) but this is something I can see happening. Eat the cake and keep it.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Dyno » Mon May 11, 2015 2:20 pm

Analytical Delusion wrote:Very interesting, hadn't seen that. Thanks for sharing. I don't know that I'd consider that an official statement from Toei as a company though (that being said, I don't personally consider GT or any of the Toei-only content to be part of the main continuity/canon, though that's my personal preference).
Well, it came directly from Yusuke Watanabe, one that you could possibly call "the man" of Toei's company. For me, it is a enough statement.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Neon Z » Mon May 11, 2015 5:10 pm

Cetra wrote: From what I have seen that was just an "until EoZ" timeline, so that could be the case. Other things also seem to not have been included.
It says that it's the history of Dragonball, nothing about just covering up to the end of Z or any specific point, and it even includes anime-only content too. In spite of that, it stops at the end of Z and doesn't mention any of GT's backstory events, like the creation of the Black Star Dragonballs or the Saiyans arriving from space and invading planet Tuffle/Vegeta. Yes, obviously not everything is there, but nothing from GT is there at all. That's a pretty specific omission considering how it easily could have multiple entries there.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon May 11, 2015 5:36 pm

Dyno wrote:Well, it came directly from Yusuke Watanabe, one that you could possibly call "the man" of Toei's company. For me, it is a enough statement.
He's the screenwriter, so I'd definitely say he represents the company.

I'm not sure how much more confirmation we need at this point, honestly. The recent barrage of almost countless inconsistencies between GT and the new material, a direct stance on GT's continuity from an officially licensed product, Watanabe's statement, and the recent "History of Dragon Ball" timeline should be more than enough for anyone clamoring for 'official' validation of whether GT actually belongs to a unified continuity. It's spelled-out almost more than it needs to be, really.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TripleRach » Mon May 11, 2015 9:18 pm

Dyno wrote:
Analytical Delusion wrote:I don't think Toei would ever make a statement that GT or whichever other portion of the franchise is "not canon".
Are you sure?

"@komori_mayo ありがとう!厳密にいうと原作漫画の「最終話」と「その直前回」の間です。GTは原作にないからね~。"
"@komori_mayo Thanks! Strictly speaking, it’s between the comic’s “final chapter” and “just before that”. GT isn’t part of the original work, after all~. "
To clarify, 原作 (original work) is the term typically used in Japanese to refer to the manga. He's simply pointing out that GT wasn't in the manga. And the overall tweet is about clarifying the timeframe of the movie (right before the end of the manga), because the person he was replying to said the movie was set between Z and GT.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by JamesOwnz » Tue May 12, 2015 6:55 am

As long as there is no GT talk and it takes place after RoF and past EoZ we'll be good

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sat May 16, 2015 12:57 pm

Cetra wrote:
Basaku wrote:
Cetra wrote:Property is ruled with rights, not logical connections of a story, even if continuity errors are without a doubt not always easy to accept.
Sure, TOEI/Toriyama can keep saying "GT is canon" forever regardless of any inconsistiences and as property owners it's gonan be technically canon. But that will hardly change the fact that no one will really take it seriously. When you have ROF changing how Goku/Vegeta look in SS form permanently there's really no actual synergy here with GT.
Fans can and can't take seriously whatever they want. If you want to have a say in it that actually matters, let money speak and make the franchise your property. Other than that you and me taking seriously anything is worth nothing. So only the first part of what you said really matters. If I invent something and you say "I don't want to count that" it does not matter for my story as you do not own any part of it. And there is no necessity in repeating that. It wouldn't be any different with something you own and someone who does not own it claims something.
If Toriyama himself never acknowledges GT conciously in any of his new works than there is no likely reason why he would connect them now. Its more implied that they're trying to overlap the progression of the series away from GT; but they don't want to alienate the few fans GT has from profits. There is no reason GT should be assumed to be connected if Toriyama doesnt even acknowledge the movies outside his own and DB2008.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Sanyo96 » Sat May 16, 2015 2:15 pm

You know whats funny about GT and BoG and RoF, Pilaf wanted the wish to be young in GT. He failed and made Goku a kid, but in the new movies he finally got that wish, I think Toriyama just did that as a nod to GT.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sat May 16, 2015 2:31 pm

I thought one of Kai key points was to get rid of filler.
Keep that Hell scene is beyond me...Especially after we got Mecha Freeza and Toriyama's hell in ROF.

Kai episode was already edited long ago, but they could still change that.

Pathetic.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat May 16, 2015 7:00 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:I thought one of Kai key points was to get rid of filler.
Keep that Hell scene is beyond me...Especially after we got Mecha Freeza and Toriyama's hell in ROF.

Kai episode was already edited long ago, but they could still change that.

Pathetic.
That just sums up Kai 2.0... lazy as hell.
Sanyo96 wrote:You know whats funny about GT and BoG and RoF, Pilaf wanted the wish to be young in GT. He failed and made Goku a kid, but in the new movies he finally got that wish, I think Toriyama just did that as a nod to GT.
I never realised that before. But it was most likely not intentional.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat May 16, 2015 9:31 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:I thought one of Kai key points was to get rid of filler.
Keep that Hell scene is beyond me...Especially after we got Mecha Freeza and Toriyama's hell in ROF.
Keeping the scene where Freeza and Cell watch Goku fight Buu in Hell would cause plot holes since Freeza didn't keep his cyborg body after death and Hell in ROF and the anime look different from each other.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Akira » Sun May 17, 2015 10:46 pm

My friends, with all due respect to your varying opinions and thoughts on this matter, I am having an unusually hard time trying to comprehend the difficulty of understanding where everything in the franchise fits. I am not grasping this need or desire to somehow have every piece of Dragonball related media be somehow crammed into a single cohesive timeline. With that said, please allow me attempt to tackle this from an "in universe" explanation, as best as I have been able to make sense of it.

Also, let me add, I took the time to read each and every one of your posts in full throughout this topic before responding. This was in an attempt to understand your viewpoints and concerns, and I would kindly ask you to read my response through in full, rather than posting back with internet slang along the lines of "TLDR", and carrying on without hearing me out. (I actually had to Google search that to learn it means "Too Long, Didn't Read". Man, how short attention spans must be, and how many fewer misunderstandings and arguments would we have if we didn't skim and then respond with that acronym so often?)

From what I can gather, many of you do not want to see various parts of the pre-existing 1985-1997 material suddenly become irrelevant or dismissed. I can appreciate that, as that is the bulk of what made me a fan, the same as you. However, I don't believe anything is being dismissed outright, directly or indirectly. It occurs to me that they are potentially laying the groundwork for explaining this in the newer crop of material, Battle of Gods in particular. It is my assumption (and yes, I admit it as such, as I doubt there will ever be a set in stone, official statement on the matter) that they are angling to an expanded universe, via multiple parallel universes/timelines.

We as the fan community should be no strangers to such a notion, considering the changes made because of Future Trunks and Imperfect Cell's time traveling already splintering things in the original decade-worth of material. I recall long discussion threads in the past, many years back, where we attempted to make sense of that business alone. The general consensus being that the daizenshuu four timeline theory alone wasn't enough to encapsulate all the probable changes resulting in their time traveling and historical alterations to the timeline.

While I am not going to try to comprehend or explain all possible timelines, as that is a can of worms best left alone (for now anyway, let's reconvene on that one after the new movies and the DB Super series has run its course) I would like to attempt to -loosely- comprehend what we have thus far, and perhaps calm some concerns that anything is going to be dismissed altogether. Keep in mind, that there will always be some small inconsistencies, no matter what it is, with any fiction that becomes as large as something like Dragonball.

So, Beerus said to Goku that there are twelve universes, some that have spawned warriors even stronger than them. We probably won't ever see them all, nor do we need to, but I would be surprised if that notion wasn't touched on at least once in the new series in some way. Some of them are probably very similar, and here is what I've seen that makes sense so far (at least until something comes along to state otherwise).

In no particular order (except for one I will label as "7", seeing as Beerus stated that theirs was universe 7 in Battle of Gods):

(1?) Bardock Special > Dragonball Series > Dragonball Z Series (up to and including Freeza Saga) > Trunks Special
(?) Bardock > DB Series > DBZ Series > DBGT Series
(7) Dragonball Manga Series (up to defeat of Majin Buu) > Yo, Son Goku and his friends Return > Battle of Gods > Revival of Freeza > Dragonball Super Series

So, that's 3 universes right there, all legitimate, nothing discarded, each its own "canon", but all inter-related and part of the same "expanded universe" parallel continuity. That leaves nine other universe umbrellas under which anything else could fit. An anime timeline that includes Dead Zone, Cooler's Revenge, Bojack Unbound and Wrath of the Dragon Movies? Sure, that could work in one universe. Maybe a DBM (Dragonball Movies) Universe that includes Curse of the Blood Rubies to Wrath of the Dragon with various altered events from the main series peppered in to fill in the blanks? Yeah, possibly. What about another Manga related universe that went through End of Z and continued into the Neko Majin Z tie in story with Uub and Z as Goku's pupils? Or, a DBK (Dragonball Kai) Universe that plays out slightly different?

Anything is possible, and I believe that is the approach that they are taking. In this manner, nothing is "discarded" per say, but nothing is absolutely set in stone either. We know there are twelve universes, we know there has been several instances of time travel, be it Future Trunks, Cell, or even Episode of Bardock. So there are many opportunities for there to be splintered, parallel universes/timelines, and while we may never come up with full explanations for all of them, nor will we ever all agree exactly on what fits where, the groundwork was laid with that one statement by Beerus for fans to interpret and include whatever works best for them, without alienating any fans or outright dismissing anything previously established. Even what I listed is meant to be taken with a grain of salt as mere suggestions, not set in stone fact. I believe this outlook is the best way to approach all of the new and upcoming material, as it allows those of you with self head canons on certain things to not have a mental implosion. (I say that as a playful rib jab, not as a slam, as I have my own interpretation of things as well)

If you so choose to look at things through this lense, and view the twelve universes thing as a "Pick your own multi-verse canon", I believe you'll be able to better enjoy the new Super series, and not get too hung up on trying to make it jive with the events of GT, nor will you feel slighted in any way. In a sense, Mr. Toriyama found a way to include everything that came before, yet clear a path for his own vision at the same time. Quite a brilliant move, in my opinion anyway.

Thank you for reading through and hearing my thoughts on the matter.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sun May 17, 2015 10:53 pm

It not a bad theory in general, but that's not how Battle of Gods' universe are implied to work. The Chozenshu provide us the implication that everything involving Goku/Dragon Ball/everything up to BOG takes place within Universe 7. That doesn't mean that other material like the movie pre-BOG can't "exist", as the can. They just have to exist as alternate timelines, ala Trunks' time travel, not as the universes that Beerus revealed. We haven't seen anything at all contained within them yet.

Xenoverse toys with the concept by having at least three timelines in the story: Main, Trunks, and GT timelines. The era's visited to deal with the Bardock and Broli missions may mean another two timelines too (it's not really addressed for them though). All the Parallel Quests in the game are also fragments, not full versions, of alternate timelines.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Dyno » Sun May 17, 2015 11:07 pm

It is very curious how oftenly people tend to "forget" Bardock when it comes to put/make/say "Dragon Ball manga/Tarble's OVA/Movie 14/Movie 15" even with Dragon Ball Minus. Very, very curious. :think:

Anyway, that is indeed a good theory, if that were true, in one of them I would want, no matter what and how... Dragon Ball Online.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by chizzielamer » Sun May 17, 2015 11:24 pm

Akira wrote: So, Beerus said to Goku that there are twelve universes, some that have spawned warriors even stronger than them. We probably won't ever see them all, nor do we need to, but I would be surprised if that notion wasn't touched on at least once in the new series in some way. Some of them are probably very similar, and here is what I've seen that makes sense so far (at least until something comes along to state otherwise).

In no particular order (except for one I will label as "7", seeing as Beerus stated that theirs was universe 7 in Battle of Gods)

(1?) Bardock Special > Dragonball Series > Dragonball Z Series (up to and including Freeza Saga) > Trunks Special
(?) Bardock > DB Series > DBZ Series > DBGT Series
(7) Dragonball Manga Series (up to defeat of Majin Buu) > Yo, Son Goku and his friends Return > Battle of Gods > Revival of Freeza > Dragonball Super Series
That....is actually pretty interesting! If that really pans out, sounds like DBZ is going all-out Marvel with the multiverse/timeline theory. A smart and profitable move.

Remember when Gotenks and Super Buu shouted so loud they ripped the dimension? I guess this isnt that far-fetched after all.

Would love to see SSJ4 Goku rip a hole and have a match up against SSJ God Goku. :clap:

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon May 18, 2015 1:17 am

I heard there's going to be a manga version of Super, will it just be an adaptation of the anime, will it be sort of a condensed version (like the RoF manga), or will it be an original story that they adapt the anime from?
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Vegitofaxx » Mon May 18, 2015 1:21 am

chizzielamer wrote:
Akira wrote: So, Beerus said to Goku that there are twelve universes, some that have spawned warriors even stronger than them. We probably won't ever see them all, nor do we need to, but I would be surprised if that notion wasn't touched on at least once in the new series in some way. Some of them are probably very similar, and here is what I've seen that makes sense so far (at least until something comes along to state otherwise).

In no particular order (except for one I will label as "7", seeing as Beerus stated that theirs was universe 7 in Battle of Gods)

(1?) Bardock Special > Dragonball Series > Dragonball Z Series (up to and including Freeza Saga) > Trunks Special
(?) Bardock > DB Series > DBZ Series > DBGT Series
(7) Dragonball Manga Series (up to defeat of Majin Buu) > Yo, Son Goku and his friends Return > Battle of Gods > Revival of Freeza > Dragonball Super Series
That....is actually pretty interesting! If that really pans out, sounds like DBZ is going all-out Marvel with the multiverse/timeline theory. A smart and profitable move.

Remember when Gotenks and Super Buu shouted so loud they ripped the dimension? I guess this isnt that far-fetched after all.

Would love to see SSJ4 Goku rip a hole and have a match up against SSJ God Goku. :clap:
Would be really awesome. But would also most likely result in the fanbase debating the result for days.
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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by chizzielamer » Mon May 18, 2015 2:22 am

heh i wouldn't mind a good debate now and then. Tossing the fans into a frenzy with all the What-ifs.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon May 18, 2015 11:53 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:I heard there's going to be a manga version of Super, will it just be an adaptation of the anime, will it be sort of a condensed version (like the RoF manga), or will it be an original story that they adapt the anime from?
I expect to be a condensed adaptation of the anime, much like how the ROF manga was.

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Re: Super as continuation of Z/Kai or Manga/Toriyama movies?

Post by Akira » Wed May 20, 2015 11:14 am

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:It not a bad theory in general, but that's not how Battle of Gods' universe are implied to work. The Chozenshu provide us the implication that everything involving Goku/Dragon Ball/everything up to BOG takes place within Universe 7. That doesn't mean that other material like the movie pre-BOG can't "exist", as the can. They just have to exist as alternate timelines, ala Trunks' time travel, not as the universes that Beerus revealed. We haven't seen anything at all contained within them yet.

Xenoverse toys with the concept by having at least three timelines in the story: Main, Trunks, and GT timelines. The era's visited to deal with the Bardock and Broli missions may mean another two timelines too (it's not really addressed for them though). All the Parallel Quests in the game are also fragments, not full versions, of alternate timelines.
What exactly is an alternate timeline, but a parallel universe? I am confused on how the two are different. (For reference, I am asking this from an inquisitive standpoint, and not a combative tone.) I'd like to understand this better if there is something I am missing, but the two concepts seem to me to be the same thing. Twelve universes makes room for parallel timelines that are similar, but play out differently from some branching point. It also allows the possibility of a few that are entirely different altogether that branched off much earlier than the decades involving the series. That is my current understanding, but I am open to other explanations that have a better basis.

Also, my theory would not use Xenoverse for a valid source, as it is a video game. Despite the fact that it seems to support my theory, I take its spin on things as simply a creative way to have a major "What-if" mode. Essentially, a better written, within its own story basis, an "In Universe" explanation for the game being a big what-if mode. I was thoroughly impressed with the game, as it is probably the best new Dragonball game I've played since the Playstation 2 days, but it is still just that, a video game. In my opinion, it isn't fair to use that as a valid source for Manga/Anime discussion. (I am not saying that you think it is, and I don't. I believe you brought it up to illustrate a point only. I just wanted to share my stance on it for reference only.)

Thank you for your response, I am enjoying the solid feedback you and others have given. It helps improve individual theories when we try to sharpen them together.
:thumbup:



Dyno wrote:It is very curious how oftenly people tend to "forget" Bardock when it comes to put/make/say "Dragon Ball manga/Tarble's OVA/Movie 14/Movie 15" even with Dragon Ball Minus. Very, very curious. :think:

Anyway, that is indeed a good theory, if that were true, in one of them I would want, no matter what and how... Dragon Ball Online.
Dyno, could you expand on this some for me what you find curious? Although there was no way for you to know this, but I didn't forget Bardock on that timeline. I simply didn't mention it because I have not read Jaco the Galactic Patrolman & Dragonball Minus yet. (I just found out that Viz released the english version recently, and ordered it this week, so that will soon change.) I merely didn't want to make any assumptions about material I had not read/seen yet. After reading it, I'll be sure to try and find a place for the material in my theory. Thank you for your response, I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this.


chizzielamer wrote:
Akira wrote: So, Beerus said to Goku that there are twelve universes, some that have spawned warriors even stronger than them. We probably won't ever see them all, nor do we need to, but I would be surprised if that notion wasn't touched on at least once in the new series in some way. Some of them are probably very similar, and here is what I've seen that makes sense so far (at least until something comes along to state otherwise).

In no particular order (except for one I will label as "7", seeing as Beerus stated that theirs was universe 7 in Battle of Gods)

(1?) Bardock Special > Dragonball Series > Dragonball Z Series (up to and including Freeza Saga) > Trunks Special
(?) Bardock > DB Series > DBZ Series > DBGT Series
(7) Dragonball Manga Series (up to defeat of Majin Buu) > Yo, Son Goku and his friends Return > Battle of Gods > Revival of Freeza > Dragonball Super Series
That....is actually pretty interesting! If that really pans out, sounds like DBZ is going all-out Marvel with the multiverse/timeline theory. A smart and profitable move.

Remember when Gotenks and Super Buu shouted so loud they ripped the dimension? I guess this isnt that far-fetched after all.

Would love to see SSJ4 Goku rip a hole and have a match up against SSJ God Goku. :clap:
I am glad you found my theory interesting. I'd forgotten about Buu and Gotenks ripping through universal barriers. That is definitely something else to consider on things changing course and other universes emerging. Between that, Trunks and Cell's time traveling, Bardock's strange jump to the past, and the oddball rooms at guardian's temple, there are many more possibilities for timeline divergences than I initially thought. By oddball rooms I mean the time travel room where Goku met Turtle Hermit and Crane Hermit as young martial artists in the past, and the rest of the gang fought past saiyans during their training, and the room of Space and Time where the saiyans prepared for the Cell games and the kids prepped for their fight with Majin Buu. The former is anime filler only, on both counts I believe, but if the anime continuity and manga continuity are separate universes, it can just be one of the many variations. The latter is where Gotenks ripped a dimensional barrier between it and his universe.

Now here's a baseless, yet interesting side theory, what if the Room of Space and Time, as its name seems to imply, is a barren barrier world between universes? Somewhere out there in that great expanse are other gateways to other universes, hence the warning to not travel out too far from your own gate for fear of being lost forever? Somewhat adds to the mystique of that place, doesn't it?
"Of" =/= "Have"

Contractions:
-Should have = Should've
-Could have = Could've
-Would have = Would've

The heck does "should of" even mean anyway? Think about what those two words mean individually, and then try to read them back to back in a sentence and make sense of it. Are you forming a prepositional phrase, is "should" a part of a larger grouping, or are you just typing random words based on how you think you hear them used verbally? Perhaps take a moment to contemplate this, and see if it becomes as mind jarring for you to look at as it does for me..

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