"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:16 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
ryou766 wrote: He did say it was Zamasu.
Ah, how'd I miss that? I stand corrected.

It's still major bullshit how they all immediately jump to the conclusion that Zamasu used the Super Dragon Balls to switch bodies with Goku. And why would even specifically choose Goku? Because he saw some clips on him on Godtube and the he knows other Gods? Fuck that flimsy ass motive.
How indeed. Herms has the entire Manga script on the last page, where Kibito also told them, that Zamasu asked Zuno, if the Super DBs could be used to switch bodies between a god and a mortal.
That's how they figure out Zamasu switched bodies with Goku.
Yeah it's actually all there in black and white. I guess you could miss it if you didnt actually read it.

In either case the motive is terrible, Toei tried to fix this and ended up creating a paradox which doesn't exist in the manga. Basically it would seem the outline just says Zamasu uses the Dragonballs to get Gokus body and gives absolutely no logical reason why. I'm putting this squarely on the outline, either it was incredibly flimsy and poorly written to the point when Toriyama couldn't bother to give his brand new villain a plausible motive or he flat out doesn't care how it's interpreted since we have two different origin stories here.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by THEGOKU » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:17 pm

Personally after reading what happens in this chapter. I'm even more confused than before and that timeline they made prior to this to try and explain it is also confusing but honestly, I rather just sit back and enjoy it. Beerus was great as always in this chapter and maybe they will have SSJ Rose happen because of fighting Goku now that way it kind of explains how he was able to do it. Possibly out of anger like he did in the anime with the scythe.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Legion » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:17 pm

But this "top 5 multiversal characters" does not exist in this chapter?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:21 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Yeah it's actually all there in black and white. I guess you could miss it if you didnt actually read it.

In either case the motive is terrible, Toei tried to fix this and ended up creating a paradox which doesn't exist in the manga. Basically it would seem the outline just says Zamasu uses the Dragonballs to get Gokus body and gives absolutely no logical reason why. I'm putting this squarely on the outline, either it was incredibly flimsy and poorly written to the point when Toriyama couldn't bother to give his brand new villain a plausible motive or he flat out doesn't care how it's interpreted since we have two different origin stories here.
Agreed. One of those cases where I can comfortably say the anime did well to do their own thing instead of sticking rigidly to the outline. Really they didn't need to come up with the paradox thing though. Just have Black originate like he does in the manga, then Trunks' travel back in time creates another timeline(the new main timeline we're following from now on) and this creation is what causes Black's time ring to react and explains why nothing happens, when they travel back in time later on.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:21 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
ryou766 wrote: He did say it was Zamasu.
Ah, how'd I miss that? I stand corrected.

It's still major bullshit how they all immediately jump to the conclusion that Zamasu used the Super Dragon Balls to switch bodies with Goku. And why would even specifically choose Goku? Because he saw some clips on him on Godtube and the he knows other Gods? Fuck that flimsy ass motive.
How indeed. Herms has the entire Manga script on the last page, where Kibito also told them, that Zamasu asked Zuno, if the Super DBs could be used to switch bodies between a god and a mortal.
That's how they figure out Zamasu switched bodies with Goku.
Zamasu could have switched bodies with anyone in the manga with how more ambiguous and shallow they make his motivation towards hating mortals. The anime makes scenario with Zamasu's distrusts of mortals, and later Goku specifically, more logical because he actually meets and fights Goku and personally comes to the conclusion that mortal having that kind of power, let alone the power to challange Gods, is a potentially great danger to the universe and a grave mistake of the Gods to let it happen in the first place. In the manga, he sees a few clips on Godtube of Goku fighting in the Universe 6/7 tournament is all like "Fuck that guy." Seriously? I don't like that lack of motivation as why he would choose Goku. For all intents and purposes, he could have chosen Hit.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ryou766 » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:23 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Zamasu could have switched bodies with anyone in the manga with how more ambiguous and shallow they make his motivation towards hating mortals.
I mean, they're up against Goku Black who shares similarities with a U10 Kaioshin. Really, them coming to the conlusion that Zamasu stole Goku's body isn't ridiculous.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sandubadear » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:23 pm

Eh, ok chapter in general, but things moved really fast compared to the anime, and that's bad.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by giovanni02 » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:25 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Ah, how'd I miss that? I stand corrected.

It's still major bullshit how they all immediately jump to the conclusion that Zamasu used the Super Dragon Balls to switch bodies with Goku. And why would even specifically choose Goku? Because he saw some clips on him on Godtube and the he knows other Gods? Fuck that flimsy ass motive.
How indeed. Herms has the entire Manga script on the last page, where Kibito also told them, that Zamasu asked Zuno, if the Super DBs could be used to switch bodies between a god and a mortal.
That's how they figure out Zamasu switched bodies with Goku.
Zamasu could have switched bodies with anyone in the manga with how more ambiguous and shallow they make his motivation towards hating mortals. The anime makes scenario with Zamasu's distrusts of mortals, and later Goku specifically, more logical because he actually meets and fights Goku and personally comes to the conclusion that mortal having that kind of power, let alone the power to challange Gods, is a potentially great danger to the universe and a grave mistake of the Gods to let it happen in the first place. In the manga, he sees a few clips on Godtube of Goku fighting in the Universe 6/7 tournament is all like "Fuck that guy." Seriously? I don't like that lack of motivation as why he would choose Goku. For all intents and purposes, he could have chosen Hit.
Why would he choose Hit if Hit is way weaker than Goku? It makes a whole lot of sense that he chose Goku, after all, he is the only mortal to acquire a power that can rival the Gods besides Vegeta and Goku's always had a slight advantage over Vegeta, so I think Goku is a logical choice...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:26 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:For all intents and purposes, he could have chosen Hit.
Or Vegeta, who could have also beaten Hit.
Or Monaka, who won the tournament.
Or Beerus and Champa, who organized it.
Or Vados and Whis, who are even above them.
Or the Omni-King or one of his bodyguards, since they made an appearance.

I bet that Toyotaro isn't even going to have the anime's speech about how Goku personifies all the sins of the Gods and mortals, and that's why he chose him. So, him choosing a mortal over a God also makes no sense in the manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:29 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Yeah it's actually all there in black and white. I guess you could miss it if you didnt actually read it.

In either case the motive is terrible, Toei tried to fix this and ended up creating a paradox which doesn't exist in the manga. Basically it would seem the outline just says Zamasu uses the Dragonballs to get Gokus body and gives absolutely no logical reason why. I'm putting this squarely on the outline, either it was incredibly flimsy and poorly written to the point when Toriyama couldn't bother to give his brand new villain a plausible motive or he flat out doesn't care how it's interpreted since we have two different origin stories here.
Agreed. One of those cases where I can comfortably say the anime did well to do their own thing instead of sticking rigidly to the outline. Really they didn't need to come up with the paradox thing though. Just have Black originate like he does in the manga, then Trunks' travel back in time creates another timeline(the new main timeline we're following from now on) and this creation is what causes Black's time ring to react and explains why nothing happens, when they travel back in time later on.
Agreed a better approach would have been a combination of both which is a sorely missed opportunity. Or even have Zamasu pick a fight with Goku following him reviewing Godtube. Actually I have one line that could have fixed this entire thing. If Toei had Beerus/Whis say they were going to take Goku to Universe 10 to meet Gozawa anyway. That way Goku would have always been destined to fight him with or without Trunks. They way it's written now they only go there because of Trunks.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:30 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:For all intents and purposes, he could have chosen Hit.
Or Vegeta, who could have also beaten Hit.
Or Monaka, who won the tournament.
Or Beerus and Champa, who organized it.
Or Vados and Whis, who are even above them.
Or the Omni-King or one of his bodyguards, since they made an appearance.

I bet that Toyotaro isn't even going to have the anime's speech about how Goku personifies all the sins of the Gods and mortals, and that's why he chose him. So, him choosing a mortal over a God also makes no sense in the manga.
Goku was the strongest raw fighter in the field, hit uses technique and is weaker than Goku. Vegeta was at 10% SSB and Zamasu is a fighting prodigy I'm sure he realizes Monaka was a fraud like hit did.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Basako » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:35 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Zamasu could have switched bodies with anyone in the manga with how more ambiguous and shallow they make his motivation towards hating mortals. The anime makes scenario with Zamasu's distrusts of mortals, and later Goku specifically, more logical because he actually meets and fights Goku and personally comes to the conclusion that mortal having that kind of power, let alone the power to challange Gods, is a potentially great danger to the universe and a grave mistake of the Gods to let it happen in the first place. In the manga, he sees a few clips on Godtube of Goku fighting in the Universe 6/7 tournament is all like "Fuck that guy." Seriously? I don't like that lack of motivation as why he would choose Goku. For all intents and purposes, he could have chosen Hit.
Even if it's true that he would have more motives to swich bodies with Goku if he had fought him, that gives us the problem of the paradox. That's the point. In the manga it has been shown that he hates mortals in planet Babary and a large conversation with Gowasu, he learns that Goku defeated Majin Boo, he observes him in Godtube and even him meeting Zeno, which makes him so jealous. It's enough. If you have a problem in Zamasu choosing Goku's body instead of a stronger being like Beerus or Whis, you have that exact same problem in the anime. They even make a joke that he didn't choose Monaca because the big nipples, that was good! But if you want more problems, it's already been said, it's for both, the anime and the manga, Zamasu could have asked the dragon to kill all mortals, instead of just a powerfull body. If he pretends to kill all mortals of all the universes of the five timelines, it's gonna take him a while. A big while.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:36 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:For all intents and purposes, he could have chosen Hit.
Or Vegeta, who could have also beaten Hit.
Or Monaka, who won the tournament.
Or Beerus and Champa, who organized it.
Or Vados and Whis, who are even above them.
Or the Omni-King or one of his bodyguards, since they made an appearance.

I bet that Toyotaro isn't even going to have the anime's speech about how Goku personifies all the sins of the Gods and mortals, and that's why he chose him. So, him choosing a mortal over a God also makes no sense in the manga.
Goku was the strongest raw fighter in the field, hit uses technique and is weaker than Goku. Vegeta was at 10% SSB and Zamasu is a fighting prodigy I'm sure he realizes Monaka was a fraud like hit did.
Hit never revealed his full power, so dismissing him just because Goku won isn't a good idea.
Vegeta and Goku are also fighting prodigies and they never figured out that Monaka was a fraud. And Hit in the manga didn't figure it out, unlike the anime, he heard Beerus screaming and that's how he knew.
Zamasu watched the whole tournament so he knew that Vegeta's full power was equal to Goku's.
And again, there's also no reason, unlike the anime, as to why he didn't stole a God's body instead. He should have, since manga!Black was so scared about Beerus.

It's just very sloppily done and terrible motivation. There's no reason to choose Goku specifically besides him being the main character and Toriyama not being able to come up with a better idea. It simply doesn't work with these time restraints. Zamasu is a complex character and he needs multiple episodes and chapters to fully flesh out his motivation and way of thinking.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:44 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Ah, how'd I miss that? I stand corrected.

It's still major bullshit how they all immediately jump to the conclusion that Zamasu used the Super Dragon Balls to switch bodies with Goku. And why would even specifically choose Goku? Because he saw some clips on him on Godtube and the he knows other Gods? Fuck that flimsy ass motive.
How indeed. Herms has the entire Manga script on the last page, where Kibito also told them, that Zamasu asked Zuno, if the Super DBs could be used to switch bodies between a god and a mortal.
That's how they figure out Zamasu switched bodies with Goku.
Zamasu could have switched bodies with anyone in the manga with how more ambiguous and shallow they make his motivation towards hating mortals. The anime makes scenario with Zamasu's distrusts of mortals, and later Goku specifically, more logical because he actually meets and fights Goku and personally comes to the conclusion that mortal having that kind of power, let alone the power to challange Gods, is a potentially great danger to the universe and a grave mistake of the Gods to let it happen in the first place. In the manga, he sees a few clips on Godtube of Goku fighting in the Universe 6/7 tournament is all like "Fuck that guy." Seriously? I don't like that lack of motivation as why he would choose Goku. For all intents and purposes, he could have chosen Hit.
Zamasu got interested in Goku because he heard that he had surpassed the Kaioshin & defeated Majin Boo for them, and then he watched GodTube in order to see how he fights. Vegeta never fought all-out in the tournament, and Hit's battle power was inferior to Goku's. As for Monaka, he probably figured out that he was actually a weakling.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:46 pm

Doctor. wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Or Vegeta, who could have also beaten Hit.
Or Monaka, who won the tournament.
Or Beerus and Champa, who organized it.
Or Vados and Whis, who are even above them.
Or the Omni-King or one of his bodyguards, since they made an appearance.

I bet that Toyotaro isn't even going to have the anime's speech about how Goku personifies all the sins of the Gods and mortals, and that's why he chose him. So, him choosing a mortal over a God also makes no sense in the manga.
Goku was the strongest raw fighter in the field, hit uses technique and is weaker than Goku. Vegeta was at 10% SSB and Zamasu is a fighting prodigy I'm sure he realizes Monaka was a fraud like hit did.
Hit never revealed his full power, so dismissing him just because Goku won isn't a good idea.
Vegeta and Goku are also fighting prodigies and they never figured out that Monaka was a fraud. And Hit in the manga didn't figure it out, unlike the anime, he heard Beerus screaming and that's how he knew.
Zamasu watched the whole tournament so he knew that Vegeta's full power was equal to Goku's.
And again, there's also no reason, unlike the anime, as to why he didn't stole a God's body instead. He should have, since manga!Black was so scared about Beerus.

It's just very sloppily done and terrible motivation. There's no reason to choose Goku specifically besides him being the main character and Toriyama not being able to come up with a better idea. It simply doesn't work with these time restraints. Zamasu is a complex character and he needs multiple episodes and chapters to fully flesh out his motivation and way of thinking.
See above where someone made the exact same arguments. There are obvious reasons if you're actually paying attention

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:48 pm

TheMikado wrote:See above where someone made the exact same arguments. There are obvious reasons if you're actually paying attention
I didn't say there weren't reasons. Sure, there are reasons. You can try to justify anything. It doesn't mean that it makes sense or that it isn't sloppy writing. The anime covered all of its bases pretty well, the manga didn't.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by micah007 » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:53 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Goku was the strongest raw fighter in the field, hit uses technique and is weaker than Goku. Vegeta was at 10% SSB and Zamasu is a fighting prodigy I'm sure he realizes Monaka was a fraud like hit did.
Hit never revealed his full power, so dismissing him just because Goku won isn't a good idea.
Vegeta and Goku are also fighting prodigies and they never figured out that Monaka was a fraud. And Hit in the manga didn't figure it out, unlike the anime, he heard Beerus screaming and that's how he knew.
Zamasu watched the whole tournament so he knew that Vegeta's full power was equal to Goku's.
And again, there's also no reason, unlike the anime, as to why he didn't stole a God's body instead. He should have, since manga!Black was so scared about Beerus.

It's just very sloppily done and terrible motivation. There's no reason to choose Goku specifically besides him being the main character and Toriyama not being able to come up with a better idea. It simply doesn't work with these time restraints. Zamasu is a complex character and he needs multiple episodes and chapters to fully flesh out his motivation and way of thinking.
See above where someone made the exact same arguments. There are obvious reasons if you're actually paying attention
Honestly most of the fanbase doesn't pay attention. Is it bothering anyone else that when a little complexity is being introduced into the franchise none of the fanbase can comprehend anything anymore? Even for the relatively simple matters? I feel like there should not be THIS much confusion running rampant.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by phattangent » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:58 pm

This has got to be my favorite panel from Chapter 18 so far... [spoiler]Zeno: 黙ってて・だまってて・Shut Up...
Image[/spoiler]
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:04 pm

Toei made it a big fun mystery of finding out who Black was. This made Black more entertaining as well. The manga skips all that and just reveals the enemy from the jump. I prefer the anime's version of events, even though the manga timeline makes more sense, the anime's was just much more fun. Zamasu became a huge meme and Black became smugness personified. In the manga, Zamasu is pretty boring

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Legion » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:10 pm

Someone have chapter link? the raw?

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