"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:51 am

Totamo wrote: Yes. Future Trunks arc should have LITTLE Trunks involvement. Great use of a fan favorite.
If the only way to use him a lot doesn't make any sense then it's better not to.

His role in the manga is more realistic for what his power level is and it doesn't destroy established logic like what the anime goes out of its way to do.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:25 am

Totamo wrote:Yes. Future Trunks arc should have LITTLE Trunks involvement. Great use of a fan favorite.
This really feeds into the stereotype that anime fans have no taste and only care for cliches.

1. Making writing decisions because of popularity is bad. That has zero artistic merit and only leads to shallow fanservice.

2. For a character to be important, that character doesn't need to be in the forefront. Not everyone should get a "badass" scene, and not everyone needs to contribute to the final attack that defeats a villain in order to be important.

3. In the original Dragonball, Trunks' involvement amounted to getting his ass kicked and getting sidelined as well. He's introduced as a mary sue, but the way the Cell Arc treated his character quickly rectified that. The way Super's anime treated him made him quickly descend back into being a Mary Sue, rather than a fully fleshed out character.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:30 pm

Totamo wrote:
Noah wrote:I love how Future Trunks is worthless in the manga, I mean he had his moments, but he still pretty much a weakling and that's how it should be in the anime too, because Black is a enemy worlds above him, so kudos to the manga for playing the real deal. Although they could have taken away that stupid "Maximum SSJ2" thing, but still better, I guess
Yes. Future Trunks arc should have LITTLE Trunks involvement. Great use of a fan favorite.


I really hope the manga keeps these Goku fights in and just as they are. It's the only time characters other than Goku and Vegeta actually did something.
Trunks is my 2nd favorite character after Vegeta but I HATE that they brought him back. For me Trunks represented the epitome of hope not matter how bleak. It was written on the side of his damn time machine.

They bring him back, change his hair color, give him an ultra weird relationship with Mai who has to be double his chronological age. Trash his world and have everything he ever did be meaningless because his universe got wiped out anyway. So yes I wish that had done the entire thing without Trunks at all. They have multiple methods for time travel why did they need to mess with future Trunks time line specifically?? Honestly they could have easily done it without him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMathemagician » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:32 pm

I've always been 50-50 with both versions of Trunks. Trunks being backseated in the manga version I don't like, I dislike it as much as the Trunks asspulls in the anime to keep him afloat.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:37 pm

TheMathemagician wrote:I've always been 50-50 with both versions of Trunks. Trunks being backseated in the manga version I don't like, I dislike it as much as the Trunks asspulls in the anime to keep him afloat.
Yeah I'm the same. I like the manga for doing something interesting can keeping him believable, as well as Zamasu. However there's not a lot of great moments I can think of that he did that were stand out. Though you could argue something similar in Z since his greatest moments were killing Freeza, and I guess getting his ass kicked by Cell?

Meanwhile in the anime he has great interactions, and some cool moments, but he also feels like a complete Gary Stu more than ever before. So I am completely torn on both ends.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by superfan2024 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:37 pm

Here are my predictions on how the manga's going to go as for the next couple of chapters:

Future Trunks/Zamasu Arc:

This arc should or probably is going to finish in about 3 chapters and each of those 3 chapters would be equivalent with the anime's episodes of 65, 66, and 67. Since both episode 64 of the anime and chapter 22 of the manga both finished off with Zamasu's fusion, then it would make since that each episode would be converted into chapters but with Toyotarō's typical differences.

Again, and also to clarify, chapter 23 would be equivalent with episode 65 where Fused Zamasu is basically just attack Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks with his new powers. At the end of the chapter, there would be a huge attack that damages Fused Zamasu so bad that he becomes unstable. That huge attack would come in either chapters 23 or 24.

In chapter 24, Vegtio obviously arrives, fights with an unstable Fused Zamasu, but soon Vegito defuses for whatever reason (most likely because of a drain of power). The one-hour time-limit is probably going to be stated in this chapter as well. Trunks soon defeats Fused Zamasu after an incredible power-up. I am not sure if Trunk's spirt-sword thingamajig is going to appear in the manga, but I know for a fact that he's going to be the one to defeat Zamasu.

Simply enough, chapter 25's basically going to be episode 67 since there's probably no other way to change those events.

The Universal Survival Arc:

This arc will start off with chapter 26, and will obviously skip all stories that have occurred between episodes 68-76 of the anime. I am not sure on what will happen in each chapter so I am just starting on 26 and leaving it like that.

So, some time has passed since the previous arc, and Goku realizes that he's in need of training or feels as though as he's getting rusty in his martial arts. He decides to go to Whis'/Beerus' homeworld and is reminded of the tournament that Goku and Zeno talked about back in the Champa arc. After being warned not to, Goku somehow finds a way to communicate to both Zenos, and reminds the present Zeno of the tournament.

After that, the Great Priest soon announces the tournament to all gods of destructions, angels, and supreme kais. The also somehow know that Goku reminded Zeno of the tournament. With this, they all begin to envy Goku and dubs him as evil, just as in the anime.

There are 40 hours to prepare for the tournament as stated by the Great Priest. In preparation, the gods of destruction, angels, and supreme kais tell and find their fighters about the tournament, Goku, and etc. For example, the Trio De Dangers are said of it, and the Pride Troopers are fighters that are told of it. They all envy Goku as well.

After that, the universes and warriors would most likely look at Goku's previous fights in GodTube, and that will continue to convince them on how much of a threat Goku and the 7th universe are due to seeing Goku's incredible power.

Now, for those wondering why I didn't include anything for the preliminary rounds, that's because I have a feeling it is just filler to give Toyotarō time to catch up to the anime, and pass it, like he said he would.

Meanwhile in universe 7, Goku gathers up his members just as the anime, and during that time, Bulla would be born through the use of Whis' magic staff. Even though Goku gathers his members just like the anime, stuff like Goku vs. Skinny Buu and Goku/17 vs. the space poachers would probably not be included in the manga as it's once again most likely filler so Toyotarō could catch up and surpass the anime.

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So, in the end, these were my predictions on how I thought the arc would go as for the next few chapters. There may be some extra details that I may have missed here and there, but I basically summed it up here.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:39 pm

TKA wrote:
Totamo wrote:Yes. Future Trunks arc should have LITTLE Trunks involvement. Great use of a fan favorite.
This really feeds into the stereotype that anime fans have no taste and only care for cliches.

1. Making writing decisions because of popularity is bad. That has zero artistic merit and only leads to shallow fanservice.

2. For a character to be important, that character doesn't need to be in the forefront. Not everyone should get a "badass" scene, and not everyone needs to contribute to the final attack that defeats a villain in order to be important.

3. In the original Dragonball, Trunks' involvement amounted to getting his ass kicked and getting sidelined as well. He's introduced as a mary sue, but the way the Cell Arc treated his character quickly rectified that. The way Super's anime treated him made him quickly descend back into being a Mary Sue, rather than a fully fleshed out character.
All I know is this. You aren't going to remember anything about Trunks in the manga. He is does little to nothing of merit. Nothing he does is memorable.. Why should I care about him?

YES! The anime made no sense but at least it made me care about someone other than goku and vegeta and that's something you can't say about modern dragon Ball. Yes, it was full of asspulls and yes, it destroyed the power scale but if it makes me care and root for a character like it did in the anime.


I am all for it.


Writing a character based of popularity is bad, but that's why they brought him back for. That was the whole selling card of this arc and the manga just kills that.


Artistic merit. Dragon Ball lost that long ago when toriyama was forced to keep going with this series because it made money. Dragon Ball super is a cash grab, I would like for it to be hone about it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:54 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Totamo wrote:
Noah wrote:I love how Future Trunks is worthless in the manga, I mean he had his moments, but he still pretty much a weakling and that's how it should be in the anime too, because Black is a enemy worlds above him, so kudos to the manga for playing the real deal. Although they could have taken away that stupid "Maximum SSJ2" thing, but still better, I guess
Yes. Future Trunks arc should have LITTLE Trunks involvement. Great use of a fan favorite.


I really hope the manga keeps these Goku fights in and just as they are. It's the only time characters other than Goku and Vegeta actually did something.
Trunks is my 2nd favorite character after Vegeta but I HATE that they brought him back. For me Trunks represented the epitome of hope not matter how bleak. It was written on the side of his damn time machine.

They bring him back, change his hair color, give him an ultra weird relationship with Mai who has to be double his chronological age. Trash his world and have everything he ever did be meaningless because his universe got wiped out anyway. So yes I wish that had done the entire thing without Trunks at all. They have multiple methods for time travel why did they need to mess with future Trunks time line specifically?? Honestly they could have easily done it without him.
Which is why we disagree. Trunks represented tragedy. In a world where death means nothing and our heroes act like stupid assholes who play with their enemies and risk the world for a fight, you have trunks. A character were death those matter to him, where he can't afford to be a dick, where he has to take every fight seriously. Yet he still suffered.


Even in Z, Trunks still ended with tragedy. His dad was dead, all of his friends were dead, everyone the androids killed were dead. How the hell is that a happy ending?! Because they can start over again? They can do the same thing now.

I don't care about his hair color, it's not worth talking about. Oh wait it's about consistentcy. That thing dragon Ball is so well known for.

Trunks was always the character to me that suffered and unlike everyone else in our time, he didn't deserve it, but that's what makes him such a good character in my eyes.

of course this is my opinion

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:04 pm

Anime Trunks suffers from the popularity problem similarly to Bardock where everyone writting him is so excited to write him they fail to stop, think and justify stuff like his SSRage form.

The manga keeps him more grounded but it suffers from the problem of making him a side character in an arc named after him. This isn't like the Android/Cell stuff where he's the guy setting up the villain, the arc itself is named after Future Trunks, implying he should play a meatier role.

The anime is conceptually in the right for wanting to make him a more active participant, the problem is they do a horrendous job of justifying this and fail at every level to add a sense of believability to almost anything he accomplishes.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:06 pm

sintzu wrote:
Totamo wrote: Yes. Future Trunks arc should have LITTLE Trunks involvement. Great use of a fan favorite.
If the only way to use him a lot doesn't make any sense then it's better not to.

His role in the manga is more realistic for what his power level is and it doesn't destroy established logic like what the anime goes out of its way to do.
Who cares about consistency if people find it lame? Some of Dragon Ball's best moments are inconsistent hell the whole red ribbon arc started because of one.

Entertainment should make sense but it should be entertaining and as I'm rereading this manga back to me. It's not.



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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:06 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Anime Trunks suffers from the popularity problem similarly to Bardock where everyone writting him is so excited to write him they fail to stop, think and justify stuff like his SSRage form.

The manga keeps him more grounded but it suffers from the problem of making him a side character in an arc named after him. This isn't like the Android/Cell stuff where he's the guy setting up the villain, the arc itself is named after Future Trunks, implying he should play a meatier role.

The anime is conceptually in the right for wanting to make him a more active participant, the problem is they do a horrendous job of justifying this and fail at every level to add a sense of believability to almost anything he accomplishes.
Holy shit I never thought of that. Trunks has gotten the Bardock treatment.....damn. It's not the same, but very eerily similar. I can draw those parallels quite a bit.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:12 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Anime Trunks suffers from the popularity problem similarly to Bardock where everyone writting him is so excited to write him they fail to stop, think and justify stuff like his SSRage form.

The manga keeps him more grounded but it suffers from the problem of making him a side character in an arc named after him. This isn't like the Android/Cell stuff where he's the guy setting up the villain, the arc itself is named after Future Trunks, implying he should play a meatier role.

The anime is conceptually in the right for wanting to make him a more active participant, the problem is they do a horrendous job of justifying this and fail at every level to add a sense of believability to almost anything he accomplishes.
Holy shit I never thought of that. Trunks has gotten the Bardock treatment.....damn. It's not the same, but very eerily similar. I can draw those parallels quite a bit.
They suffer from a similar problem in that they both suck during their original appearance than when they come back, everyone magically forgets this and makes them uber badasses because they're such fans of the characters. Bardock is considerably worse off because him sucking is what makes him special in that he's not special, he's a worthless grunt. Trunks getting better as he gets older is quite a bit easier to make an evolution out of but Super is all pay off and no set up or build up, his SSRage thing is the culmination of something we don't even see.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:15 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Anime Trunks suffers from the popularity problem similarly to Bardock where everyone writting him is so excited to write him they fail to stop, think and justify stuff like his SSRage form.

The manga keeps him more grounded but it suffers from the problem of making him a side character in an arc named after him. This isn't like the Android/Cell stuff where he's the guy setting up the villain, the arc itself is named after Future Trunks, implying he should play a meatier role.

The anime is conceptually in the right for wanting to make him a more active participant, the problem is they do a horrendous job of justifying this and fail at every level to add a sense of believability to almost anything he accomplishes.
Holy shit I never thought of that. Trunks has gotten the Bardock treatment.....damn. It's not the same, but very eerily similar. I can draw those parallels quite a bit.
They suffer from a similar problem in that they both suck during their original appearance than when they come back, everyone magically forgets this and makes them uber badasses because they're such fans of the characters. Bardock is considerably worse off because him sucking is what makes him special in that he's not special, he's a worthless grunt. Trunks getting better as he gets older is quite a bit easier to make an evolution out of but Super is all pay off and no set up or build up, his SSRage thing is the culmination of something we don't even see.
Oh without a doubt Bardock is worse off, though Trunks really does fall in the same pitfalls he did. Though your whole talk of set up and build up is kinda the revelation I came up with in another thread of the true reason why people are so mad at the inconsistencies. Super jumps straight to the pay off, but never seems to have any good set ups or build up. It just wants to immediately eat the cake before you get all the frosting and toppings. It just wants the cake now, the rest be damned. I think every ridiculous idea of Super could work if they just spent some more time on their set ups and build up. By skipping those two steps or half assing them, we're left with huge pay offs that are absolute nonsense.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:24 pm

Totamo wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Totamo wrote: Yes. Future Trunks arc should have LITTLE Trunks involvement. Great use of a fan favorite.
If the only way to use him a lot doesn't make any sense then it's better not to.

His role in the manga is more realistic for what his power level is and it doesn't destroy established logic like what the anime goes out of its way to do.
Who cares about consistency if people find it lame? Some of Dragon Ball's best moments are inconsistent hell the whole red ribbon arc started because of one.

Entertainment should make sense but it should be entertaining and as I'm rereading this manga back to me. It's not.



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Yeah look we aren't going to agree here, your opinion of entertainment over consistency doesn't jive with everyone and since there's no real conversation to be had because the gap in the fundamental premise is so wide we really don't have any more to discuss.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:26 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
Holy shit I never thought of that. Trunks has gotten the Bardock treatment.....damn. It's not the same, but very eerily similar. I can draw those parallels quite a bit.
They suffer from a similar problem in that they both suck during their original appearance than when they come back, everyone magically forgets this and makes them uber badasses because they're such fans of the characters. Bardock is considerably worse off because him sucking is what makes him special in that he's not special, he's a worthless grunt. Trunks getting better as he gets older is quite a bit easier to make an evolution out of but Super is all pay off and no set up or build up, his SSRage thing is the culmination of something we don't even see.
Oh without a doubt Bardock is worse off, though Trunks really does fall in the same pitfalls he did. Though your whole talk of set up and build up is kinda the revelation I came up with in another thread of the true reason why people are so mad at the inconsistencies. Super jumps straight to the pay off, but never seems to have any good set ups or build up. It just wants to immediately eat the cake before you get all the frosting and toppings. It just wants the cake now, the rest be damned. I think every ridiculous idea of Super could work if they just spent some more time on their set ups and build up. By skipping those two steps or half assing them, we're left with huge pay offs that are absolute nonsense.
Wow that's one hundred percent true! The nonsensical lore creation it did was really to boost the character to a place he never held before, but I wonder home much of this attitude was Toriyamas based on his Dragonball Minus manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:33 pm

I'm surprised people are unhappy with how Trunks is being treated in the manga. The whole reason he went to the past was because he didn't stand a chance against Black, so it makes sense that he shouldn't be doing the bulk of the fighting, especially when Goku and Vegeta far surpass him. He's had plenty of badass moments...you don't need to defeat the villain to have cool moments. Hell, even the part where Black is holding Trunks down by his face, a moment where Trunks is being completely overpowered, is pretty awesome. He's smiling in the face of defeat, and he got off a few solid hits beforehand.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:49 pm

batistabus wrote:I'm surprised people are unhappy with how Trunks is being treated in the manga. The whole reason he went to the past was because he didn't stand a chance against Black, so it makes sense that he shouldn't be doing the bulk of the fighting, especially when Goku and Vegeta far surpass him. He's had plenty of badass moments...you don't need to defeat the villain to have cool moments. Hell, even the part where Black is holding Trunks down by his face, a moment where Trunks is being completely overpowered, is pretty awesome. He's smiling in the face of defeat, and he got off a few solid hits beforehand.
It's a bias people have towards the main fight. It's like saying Vegeta did nothing during the Cell Arc because he didn't fight in the Cell Games.
I agree that him sacrificing himself to allow Goku and Vegeta to escape was badass and essential in the arc. Ironically many people are calling this moment worthless here, yet because Trunks transformed in the anime there he's relevant. Even though the anime gave him a transformation and did absolutely nothing with it.
Trunks transforms and they don't even show him escaping from Black and Zamasu, next episode he's just been rescued...

Yeah, disputing the whole premise of the arc: Trunks is weak and needs help is weird. People put too much importance into the title of the arc, which is a stupid title. It should have been the "Goku Black Arc" or the "Zamasu Arc". I wonder if it was Mr.Toriyama's idea or some producer.

Honestly this is creating a complaint for the sake of complaining. Toyotarõ could have Trunks fight Future Zamasu, I guess. But that's only a nitpick. He had a very decent amount of focus, even a flashback for himself which is rare in Dragon Ball.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:52 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Totamo wrote:
sintzu wrote:
If the only way to use him a lot doesn't make any sense then it's better not to.

His role in the manga is more realistic for what his power level is and it doesn't destroy established logic like what the anime goes out of its way to do.
Who cares about consistency if people find it lame? Some of Dragon Ball's best moments are inconsistent hell the whole red ribbon arc started because of one.

Entertainment should make sense but it should be entertaining and as I'm rereading this manga back to me. It's not.



Bad is better than boring
Yeah look we aren't going to agree here, your opinion of entertainment over consistency doesn't jive with everyone and since there's no real conversation to be had because the gap in the fundamental premise is so wide we really don't have any more to discuss.[/quote
I agree with that. There isn't anything to talk about. Take your piece and I will take mine

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMathemagician » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:56 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Anime Trunks suffers from the popularity problem similarly to Bardock where everyone writting him is so excited to write him they fail to stop, think and justify stuff like his SSRage form.

The manga keeps him more grounded but it suffers from the problem of making him a side character in an arc named after him. This isn't like the Android/Cell stuff where he's the guy setting up the villain, the arc itself is named after Future Trunks, implying he should play a meatier role.

The anime is conceptually in the right for wanting to make him a more active participant, the problem is they do a horrendous job of justifying this and fail at every level to add a sense of believability to almost anything he accomplishes.
Really how I feel about it. I enjoy some of what the anime did for Trunks as as you said, the idea itself to keep him involved was nice, but it wasn't all that realistic and ended up being horribly written most of the time. The manga just has him sort of there and taking a backseat in a saga promoted and named after him. A big allure to it was his return.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Freeza9000 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:42 pm

TheMikado wrote:Trunks is my 2nd favorite character after Vegeta but I HATE that they brought him back. For me Trunks represented the epitome of hope not matter how bleak. It was written on the side of his damn time machine.

They bring him back, change his hair color, give him an ultra weird relationship with Mai who has to be double his chronological age. Trash his world and have everything he ever did be meaningless because his universe got wiped out anyway. So yes I wish that had done the entire thing without Trunks at all. They have multiple methods for time travel why did they need to mess with future Trunks time line specifically?? Honestly they could have easily done it without him.
And he still represents hope since that hope survived the most severe damage done to it and that is Zeno destroying everything in the timeline. We don't see Trunks trying to shove his broken sword through his trachea and even when he's being offered a solution by the gods to restore Trunks's home back (even though the timeline Whis created isn't the exact same as Trunks's original home), he still accepts it despite the solution being imperfect. Which is pretty much Trunks did back in the Androids arc where Trunks went to alter past to save Goku and co. even though that's never gonna bring back the ones that were killed against the Androids.

The show never treated the Trunks and Mai relationship as creepy though.

And no, what he did wasn't all meaningless especially when Gohan comes up to Trunks and bids farewell the him. It can be interpreted as a reminder for Trunks that all he did wasn't meaningless as the Gohan of the present timeline got to live his life as a scholar and got a job whereas his future self got brutally murdered in battle. Not to mention, the timeline Trunks and Mai are going to is pretty much a time before Black came to kill them all and the Earth still reconstructing after the deaths of Androids.

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