"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:16 pm

Goku witnesses Hakai:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gog » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:21 pm

I feel like everyone's real problem with Goku performing the Hakai isn't that it somehow devalues the technique. Considering that Goku is technically a God, and seeing the Hakai technique would want to make Goku learn it.

The real problem here is that it's simply an asspull that (as far as I'm aware) has had no foreshadowing as well. That's the only real problem I can actually find with it in the first place.
batistabus wrote:Goku witnesses Hakai:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
I wouldn't call that a Hakai, so much as Beerus just rage quitting in an extremely comedic fasion.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:51 pm

Gog wrote:Here is that it's simply an asspull that (as far as I'm aware) has had no foreshadowing as well. That's the only real problem I can actually find with it in the first place.
After reading 20+ pages of complaints, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that "asspull," as used here, simply means "Plot point I don't agree with." This isn't an asspull simply because the manga isn't betraying its rules, or the rules established in Toriyama's original work.

I can't fathom why people don't just wait for things to unfold. There's literally nothing implying that how Goku learned the technique won't be a discussion point. Toyotaro explains everything that happens in the manga, even if it takes some chapters to do so. We go through this same song and dance every single month.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:12 am

The only "asspull" I will acknowledge in Dragon Ball:
Image

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gog » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:16 am

TKA wrote: After reading 20+ pages of complaints, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that "asspull," as used here, simply means "Plot point I don't agree with." This isn't an asspull simply because the manga isn't betraying its rules, or the rules established in Toriyama's original work.

I can't fathom why people don't just wait for things to unfold. There's literally nothing implying that how Goku learned the technique won't be a discussion point. Toyotaro explains everything that happens in the manga, even if it takes some chapters to do so. We go through this same song and dance every single month.
But, that's not why I consider it to be an ass-pull in the first place. I even explained, and typed out my reasoning for it in the first place as well. I honestly have no problem with Goku learning how to use the Hakai technique in theory it's a cool plot point that I wished was used better. It's not a plot point I don't agree with quite the contrary on the other hand.

The reason why I consider it to be an ass-pull is simply put it there's no foreshadowing on it's hand it comes completely out of left field. It's like MSSJB (Which outright contradicts everything stated and shown in the manga) and for such a big reveal that's not exactly something you'd want to do. Heck, thinking about it a bit more the Hakai also contradicts what was shown and stated previously in the narrative. So, it's a retcon to boot.

Which is a shame considering how easy it would have been to make it work within the narrative.
batistabus wrote:The only "asspull" I will acknowledge in Dragon Ball:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
That's not an asspull. It's more of a great gag. :P

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:48 am

TKA wrote:
Gog wrote:Here is that it's simply an asspull that (as far as I'm aware) has had no foreshadowing as well. That's the only real problem I can actually find with it in the first place.
After reading 20+ pages of complaints, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that "asspull," as used here, simply means "Plot point I don't agree with." This isn't an asspull simply because the manga isn't betraying its rules, or the rules established in Toriyama's original work.

I can't fathom why people don't just wait for things to unfold. There's literally nothing implying that how Goku learned the technique won't be a discussion point. Toyotaro explains everything that happens in the manga, even if it takes some chapters to do so. We go through this same song and dance every single month.
I like the cut of your jib. lol, that bold tho.
Seriously Goku even stated in the chapter that he told Beerus the Hakai Technique is dangerous and was borrowing it.
Which means he saw the technique used before but just didn't disclose when. Like you stated it will be revealed later.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:01 am

How does MSSB contradict everything stated in the manga? That's one of the few moves that actually has some light foreshadowing

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:18 am

Zephyr wrote: If you don't need to be a God of Destruction to use the technique, then being able to use the technique doesn't enable one to call themselves a God of Destruction. And just because Goku of all people is using the technique, doesn't mean that it's such a simple technique to learn that everyone should just be casually picking it up. You know who Goku is, right? You what he can do, right? You know that he's always supposed to have been sort of special, a kind of savant when it came to combat, right? He's the one who picked up the Kamehameha, whose inventor had taken several decades to develop it, just from seeing it once. He's the only one we know to be able to actually use the Kaioken. He's the one who figured out the right way to evolve past Super Saiyan. Goku being able to use this is consistent with the kind of shit he's always been capable of doing: mastering things thought unmasterable at a faster rate than anyone thought possible.

What makes something an "asspull"? What does that word even mean? Is it just some new development that you don't like? It feels like nothing more than a vacuous, definition-less weasel word. You never really explained what was wrong with Trunks getting healing. It's an expansion of already existing lore in a place where there was room to be expanded. It was set up. Where's the fire? Is it an "asspull" because Trunks isn't being the toughest, baddest motherfucker on the team now? Because that seems to be the only thing that's true about it that seems one could justifiably take issue with.

An unexpected, but plausible and justifiable, subversion of basic assumptions isn't something worth being this melodramatic about. Something being done just to be different doesn't make it stupid, otherwise you're going to have to lay into Toriyama for writing a fair amount of his plot points in the original manga out of spite for his editors and fans. Something is a stupid development because it will "divide the community"? People disagreeing about a new development renders that development stupid? This is getting absurd.

And no, Toriyama being the one to come up with an idea doesn't make it special. The man could certainly execute it on the page much better, sure, but in terms of originating an idea itself? There's nothing that makes him uniquely exempt from criticism. Are you telling me that in world where the original manga ended with the Cell Games, and Toyotaro wrote the Buu arc, entirely as we know it, that the Buu arc would only then suddenly become poorly written, full of asspulls, etc? No, that's simply stupid. If there is an issue to take with a story, you can take said issue regardless of the author. If changing the author (as in, literally only changing who is credited on the cover) changes what you think of the story, then it's not the story you have an issue with, you simply have an axe to grind against the author. And, well, the crowd around here who come in every month to pitch a giant fit seem to fall very cleanly into that latter category, given this collective chronic inability to fully justify the severity of these random nitpicks.
As we know the strongest person doesn't have to be the GoD. What if the strongest person learn the hakai technique and use it. Does that mean he's a GoD. Because as I see right now, there's nothing that special being a GoD if one of your only special techniques can be copied by some hick monkey from a floating rock in space.
Do you know what kind of technique is the hakai technique? It's not just a random blast. It's a fucking delete attack. No soul, no nothing. Sure Goku can copy techniques easily but as we see those are only simple techniques. For example, Goku learns Instant Transmission from the Yadrats. It's hard and Goku didn't just see and do. That's learning. And learning from a mortal. But hakai if seen from the anime is special enough that just by using it people can know it came from a GoD. Goku using that said technique just by watching just lower that technique down to generic tier with some random blast technique. Disgusting. I remember that I already told you why I take issue with Trunks healing. Something along the line of he isn't a kai or even close to one? Something like that. I mean, where's Gohan healing technique?

But Toriyama manage to make it exciting even if it's stupid as hell and contradictory most of the time. See, I don't care for critcising Toriyama. Most people do it and are still doing it. But what make him special is that he's the author. He's the one that manage to make it interesting and fun. While Toyo is harder to like because he's only rise to infamous glory is that fanfic he does and that isn't in anyway good. You yourself say that Toriyama can execute it on page much better. The Buu arc is already poorly written and full of asspull but it's fun. It's exciting and if Toyotaro did that arc, it wouldn't be the same. If Toyotaro can manage to pull of something as exciting as that I wouldn't care for the asspull he did. But what he's doing right now isn't near that level. Toei for example as of now manage to put make something much more exciting even with more stupid writing.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Khin » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:56 am

fexus wrote:As we know the strongest person doesn't have to be the GoD. What if the strongest person learn the hakai technique and use it. Does that mean he's a GoD. Because as I see right now, there's nothing that special being a GoD if one of your only special techniques can be copied by some hick monkey from a floating rock in space.
Do you know what kind of technique is the hakai technique? It's not just a random blast. It's a fucking delete attack. No soul, no nothing. Sure Goku can copy techniques easily but as we see those are only simple techniques. For example, Goku learns Instant Transmission from the Yadrats. It's hard and Goku didn't just see and do. That's learning. And learning from a mortal. But hakai if seen from the anime is special enough that just by using it people can know it came from a GoD. Goku using that said technique just by watching just lower that technique down to generic tier with some random blast technique. Disgusting. I remember that I already told you why I take issue with Trunks healing. Something along the line of he isn't a kai or even close to one? Something like that. I mean, where's Gohan healing technique?
I agree. My issue with this whole Hakai thing is that Goku having this ability kind of makes the technique less special. I've always thought that the Gods of Destruction having their own "delete" technique is such a cool concept, and I would assume that's probably also the reason why this said technique is very popular among the fanbase. Having Goku (and possibly others doing it in the future) takes away any cool factor the technique have, and kinda makes Beerus killing Zamasu less awesome.

I don't care if Goku is this battle genius that can learn other techniques fast. I mean, for sure there are probably other characters that can learn techniques like Kaio-ken and Shunkan-Ido, but I don't want to others to learn it because it makes the technique less special. That's pretty much how I feel about Goku performing Hakai. It's just like how Super Saiyan became less special once other character started having the form, albeit not on the same level so far.

It's not a matter of it being an "asspull" or not.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:27 am

Some might see these events as making the ability seem less special. Instead, I see the ability as equally special. It just makes it that much more impressive and exciting that Goku was able to pull it off. Through his mastery of god ki, Goku was able to pull off (albeit, with limited effectiveness) an ability that only Gods of Destruction have previously been able to implement. Sure, it is an ability intended for Gods of Destruction, but as Goku has unnaturally been able to obtain the power of the gods through Super Saiyan God, he has somehow found a way to make this power work for him. I think that's pretty cool. It is strange and unusual, but justified in the lore.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jigurashi » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:31 am

I don't see how the lack of foreshadowing is an ass-pull for Goku knowing Hakai when most techniques characters learn are off-screen and we usually never know they have it until they use it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SansrivaaL » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:51 am

Guess people doesnt like being surprised anymore, if Toyo foreshadowed it happening people would go Sherlock wannabe "OH SHIT I CALLED THIS!" or "HA! KNEW IT, SO PREDICTABLE" while this is a big surprise it still makes sense, Goku told us he saw it before and said it was a dangerous move, both him and Vegeta acknowledges that its Beerus' technique. If people call it an asspull then I'd rather have this kind of asspull that they even care to explain in universe and can be made sense of.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:58 am

fexus wrote:as I see right now, there's nothing that special being a GoD if one of your only special techniques can be copied by some hick monkey from a floating rock in space.
Again, it's a job. What makes a God of Destruction 'special' is that he has stuff that he's required to do, and that he shares a life force with the Gods of Creation. Having 'exclusive' techniques wasn't needed to make them 'special', and lacking them doesn't keep them from being 'special'.
fexus wrote:Sure Goku can copy techniques easily but as we see those are only simple techniques. For example, Goku learns Instant Transmission from the Yadrats. It's hard and Goku didn't just see and do. That's learning. And learning from a mortal.
Every time Goku learned/mastered a new technique, it was at that moment in time seen as far from "simple". Goku doing the Kamehameha was a big fucking deal at the time. Not really sure what the Yardratians being mortals has to do with anything; remember when he learned the Kaioken from....Kaio? A god, who himself never mastered said technique?
fexus wrote:Goku using that said technique just by watching just lower that technique down to generic tier with some random blast technique. Disgusting.
No, that doesn't lower the technique down to a generic tier. It's Goku using it. That's clearly meant to further emphasize how gifted Goku is at this shit. If Goku using a technique makes lowers it down to a generic level, then why the hell isn't everyone going around using the Kaioken, Genki Dama, Shukan Ido, etc?

You have to substantially downplay Goku's talent as a martial artist in order to actually sincerely hold this complaint. Let's maybe start being melodramatic about it when Mr. Satan and Appule are using it.
fexus wrote:I remember that I already told you why I take issue with Trunks healing. Something along the line of he isn't a kai or even close to one?
Dende and Kibito aren't "kais" either. Whatever you mean by "kai". Do you mean Shinjin, as in the race/species? Kibito might be one (which would be an assumption), but Dende isn't. Do you mean Kaio, as in the job? Because Kibito isn't a Kaio. Still not seeing any reason to take issue with this.
fexus wrote:I mean, where's Gohan healing technique?
So is this one an in-universe nitpick (why did Gohan never use it before?) or an out-of-universe nitpick (why isn't Gohan using the healing technique right now?). If the former is your concern, remember that Gohan was never told that he had the ability (and thus had no reason to know he could use it). If the latter is your concern, then, like, what? He's not even at the fight! That said, I am now hoping that Gohan makes use of this ability in the manga's version of the Tournament of Power.
fexus wrote:Toei for example as of now manage to put make something much more exciting even with more stupid writing.
Excitement is fleeting. It's there, and then it's gone. Something being exciting is good the first time around. If visceral excitement is the only draw, then it will get boring after a while. Something that's more well-written has much more longevity, even if it's 'boring' seeing it slowly come out in real time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ki Breaker » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:08 am

Gog wrote:
That's not an asspull. It's more of a great gag. :P
No, he literally "pulled it out of his ass"
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gog » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:00 am

Ki Breaker wrote:
Gog wrote:
That's not an asspull. It's more of a great gag. :P
No, he literally "pulled it out of his ass"
That's not his ass... :sick:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:42 am

I find it hilarious that people complain about it being an asspull when not only the anime, but even the original manga is full of asspulls & nobody cares. Everyone wants Dragon Ball Super (both manga & anime) to be like One Piece or Naruto, where the whole plot is planned from the start and every plot-point is foreshadowed from years before it happens. It's not something that I dislike (and I love One Piece & Naruto), but this was never what Dragon Ball was, and it was never trying to become like that.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Misirius » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:58 am

The internet will just burn with this Manga Chapter... In my opinion, it's really good. The anime needed Goku Black and Zamasu to really struggle, but to be unstoppable like this once they fused.

And as for the big thing this chapter: I LOVED the Goku Hakai!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:05 am

Zephyr wrote:
fexus wrote:as I see right now, there's nothing that special being a GoD if one of your only special techniques can be copied by some hick monkey from a floating rock in space.
Again, it's a job. What makes a God of Destruction 'special' is that he has stuff that he's required to do, and that he shares a life force with the Gods of Creation. Having 'exclusive' techniques wasn't needed to make them 'special', and lacking them doesn't keep them from being 'special'.
fexus wrote:Sure Goku can copy techniques easily but as we see those are only simple techniques. For example, Goku learns Instant Transmission from the Yadrats. It's hard and Goku didn't just see and do. That's learning. And learning from a mortal.
Every time Goku learned/mastered a new technique, it was at that moment in time seen as far from "simple". Goku doing the Kamehameha was a big fucking deal at the time. Not really sure what the Yardratians being mortals has to do with anything; remember when he learned the Kaioken from....Kaio? A god, who himself never mastered said technique?
fexus wrote:Goku using that said technique just by watching just lower that technique down to generic tier with some random blast technique. Disgusting.
No, that doesn't lower the technique down to a generic tier. It's Goku using it. That's clearly meant to further emphasize how gifted Goku is at this shit. If Goku using a technique makes lowers it down to a generic level, then why the hell isn't everyone going around using the Kaioken, Genki Dama, Shukan Ido, etc?

You have to substantially downplay Goku's talent as a martial artist in order to actually sincerely hold this complaint. Let's maybe start being melodramatic about it when Mr. Satan and Appule are using it.
fexus wrote:I remember that I already told you why I take issue with Trunks healing. Something along the line of he isn't a kai or even close to one?
Dende and Kibito aren't "kais" either. Whatever you mean by "kai". Do you mean Shinjin, as in the race/species? Kibito might be one (which would be an assumption), but Dende isn't. Do you mean Kaio, as in the job? Because Kibito isn't a Kaio. Still not seeing any reason to take issue with this.
fexus wrote:I mean, where's Gohan healing technique?
So is this one an in-universe nitpick (why did Gohan never use it before?) or an out-of-universe nitpick (why isn't Gohan using the healing technique right now?). If the former is your concern, remember that Gohan was never told that he had the ability (and thus had no reason to know he could use it). If the latter is your concern, then, like, what? He's not even at the fight! That said, I am now hoping that Gohan makes use of this ability in the manga's version of the Tournament of Power.
fexus wrote:Toei for example as of now manage to put make something much more exciting even with more stupid writing.
Excitement is fleeting. It's there, and then it's gone. Something being exciting is good the first time around. If visceral excitement is the only draw, then it will get boring after a while. Something that's more well-written has much more longevity, even if it's 'boring' seeing it slowly come out in real time.
It does. You are severely downplaying the GoD job. It's not like it's something like the job of a President or an occupation like a martial artist or farmer. It's a cosmic thing that just by the death of the GoD the angel will go to slumber and the related Kai will die. Having the hakai is a symbol of the status of a GoD. I'm complaining about the manga right now but if down the line the anime do it too without proper reasoning it's equally as stupid.

Me saying it's simple doesn't mean it's not hard. Goku is a saiyan thus learning ki blast technique does come easier for him. Not downplaying Goku but the harder technique he does have to learn it properly. For example, every technique you just listed out are techniques that he needed to learn. And the technique itself isn't tied down to the status of the user. Except for the genki dama I think which he can't use while ssj? Whatever.

Yeah I mean the God race. Dende got the guardian job. And he'a magic namekian and stuff. Trunks is just a saiyan. Not even a full saiyan. Why would Shin tell Trunks but not Gohan?

Of course but if it isn't well written I would at least want it to be exciting. Yes, the manga isn't that well written as you guys seem to gush about. It's also not as exciting.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:50 am

fexus wrote:You are severely downplaying the GoD job. It's not like it's something like the job of a President or an occupation like a martial artist or farmer. It's a cosmic thing that just by the death of the GoD the angel will go to slumber and the related Kai will die.
Are you just pulling an "I'm rubber, you're glue!" thing with what I just said, or is there actually a single thing I'm doing to downplay the role that a God of Destruction plays? The suggestion that they don't have a job-exclusive technique really does this? What, was the role somehow not valuable, impressive, important, or meaningful to you prior to Beerus killing Zamasu with this supposedly-Hakaishin-exclusive technique? Kind of late in the game to start worshiping them like this.
fexus wrote:Having the hakai is a symbol of the status of a GoD.
So we're just making things up now?
fexus wrote:Trunks is just a saiyan.
Who trained under a Kaioshin. You're fine with a technique being tied to the God of Destruction job (so committed to the idea, in fact, that you're apparently filled with disgust over this turning out to be untrue), but you're vehemently against a technique being tied to the Kaioshin's Attendant job? I'm getting mixed signals, here. Damned if the manga does, damned if the manga doesn't.
fexus wrote:Not downplaying Goku but the harder technique he does have to learn it properly. For example, every technique you just listed out are techniques that he needed to learn.
And we're assuming Goku didn't learn this for what reason? It seems like you're making an assumption for the sole purpose of taking issue with it. Of course he learned it, there's no other way he'd be using it right now.
fexus wrote:the manga isn't that well written as you guys seem to gush about.
That your criticism of it relies almost exclusively on incredibly pedantic nitpicks, grasping at straws, demonstrably-false premises, and a dogmatic attachment to assumptions is only convincing me otherwise.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:08 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I find it hilarious that people complain about it being an asspull when not only the anime, but even the original manga is full of asspulls & nobody cares. Everyone wants Dragon Ball Super (both manga & anime) to be like One Piece or Naruto, where the whole plot is planned from the start and every plot-point is foreshadowed from years before it happens. It's not something that I dislike (and I love One Piece & Naruto), but this was never what Dragon Ball was, and it was never trying to become like that.
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