"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MathSSJ » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:17 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I find it hilarious that people complain about it being an asspull when not only the anime, but even the original manga is full of asspulls & nobody cares. Everyone wants Dragon Ball Super (both manga & anime) to be like One Piece or Naruto, where the whole plot is planned from the start and every plot-point is foreshadowed from years before it happens. It's not something that I dislike (and I love One Piece & Naruto), but this was never what Dragon Ball was, and it was never trying to become like that.
Maybe it's my skeptical ass, but neither Toyotaro or Toei's version of DBS can deliver the nonsense with the sincerity in their writing that the original run had. This is a bigger problem than any kind of mechanical or logical inconsistencies in both versions of the story.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Basako » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:18 am

Zephyr wrote:
fexus wrote:I mean, where's Gohan healing technique?
So is this one an in-universe nitpick (why did Gohan never use it before?) or an out-of-universe nitpick (why isn't Gohan using the healing technique right now?). If the former is your concern, remember that Gohan was never told that he had the ability (and thus had no reason to know he could use it). If the latter is your concern, then, like, what? He's not even at the fight! That said, I am now hoping that Gohan makes use of this ability in the manga's version of the Tournament of Power.
Gohan had a ritual to unlock his power, not to become an attendant to the Kaioshin. Trunks had a ritual to become an attendant to the Kaioshin, performed by the Kaioshin himself, Gohan's was done by the elder. They had different rituals with different purposes.

For the rest of the discussion, totally agree with Zephyr, well said.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:26 am

Basako wrote:Gohan had a ritual to unlock his power, not to become an attendant to the Kaioshin. Trunks had a ritual to become an attendant to the Kaioshin, performed by the Kaioshin himself, Gohan's was done by the elder. They had different rituals with different purposes.
Yeah, that's also a distinct possibility. I interpreted the revelation as meaning that the dance we know is supposed to be for initiating a new Kaioshin apprentice, and his half-witch nature also allowed that to draw out Gohan's hidden potential. That seems to be the logical conclusion to me, but I won't be pitching a fit if/when that turns out to not be true.

Really, I just think it would be cool for Gohan to have the ability to heal his friends and allies in the Tournament of Power, since that would allow his skill set to actually stand apart.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:32 am

MathSSJ wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I find it hilarious that people complain about it being an asspull when not only the anime, but even the original manga is full of asspulls & nobody cares. Everyone wants Dragon Ball Super (both manga & anime) to be like One Piece or Naruto, where the whole plot is planned from the start and every plot-point is foreshadowed from years before it happens. It's not something that I dislike (and I love One Piece & Naruto), but this was never what Dragon Ball was, and it was never trying to become like that.
Maybe it's my skeptical ass, but neither Toyotaro or Toei's version of DBS can deliver the nonsense with the sincerity in their writing that the original run had. This is a bigger problem than any kind of mechanical or logical inconsistencies in both versions of the story.
No, the problem is that most of us were little kids when we saw DBZ, so we didn't have the same logic and the same expectations like now, so even now we don't care that much.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:35 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
MathSSJ wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I find it hilarious that people complain about it being an asspull when not only the anime, but even the original manga is full of asspulls & nobody cares. Everyone wants Dragon Ball Super (both manga & anime) to be like One Piece or Naruto, where the whole plot is planned from the start and every plot-point is foreshadowed from years before it happens. It's not something that I dislike (and I love One Piece & Naruto), but this was never what Dragon Ball was, and it was never trying to become like that.
Maybe it's my skeptical ass, but neither Toyotaro or Toei's version of DBS can deliver the nonsense with the sincerity in their writing that the original run had. This is a bigger problem than any kind of mechanical or logical inconsistencies in both versions of the story.
No, the problem is that most of us were little kids when we saw DBZ, so we didn't have the same logic and the same expectations like now, so even now we don't care that much.
Speaking as someone who didn't see the series all the way through until a couple years ago (with almost no viewing experiences of it as a child to speak of) a lot of the pre-Cell stuff holds together fairly well even under the scrutiny of someone without nostalgia tinting the experience.

It's not master story telling but it definitely wasn't even approaching the slap dash the series gradually got burried under and has practically never recovered from.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Basako » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:49 am

Zephyr wrote: Yeah, that's also a distinct possibility. I interpreted the revelation as meaning that the dance we know is supposed to be for initiating a new Kaioshin apprentice, and his half-witch nature also allowed that to draw out Gohan's hidden potential. That seems to be the logical conclusion to me, but I won't be pitching a fit if/when that turns out to not be true.

Really, I just think it would be cool for Gohan to have the ability to heal his friends and allies in the Tournament of Power, since that would allow his skill set to actually stand apart.
Well, if they established in the manga that Gohan became an attendant and a healer since his ritual, it wouldn't be out of sense. But I think we have enough healers with Dende, Kibito an Boo, plus the senzus. For me, it has more weight that Shin personally performed the ritual for Trunks, it's an assumption that this is a requirement, but makes enough sense.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:18 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I find it hilarious that people complain about it being an asspull when not only the anime, but even the original manga is full of asspulls & nobody cares. Everyone wants Dragon Ball Super (both manga & anime) to be like One Piece or Naruto, where the whole plot is planned from the start and every plot-point is foreshadowed from years before it happens. It's not something that I dislike (and I love One Piece & Naruto), but this was never what Dragon Ball was, and it was never trying to become like that.
And it was just as bad then. How is this an argument? "The original manga had bad things that took people's immersion away and lessened their enjoyment, so this means Super should too."

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MathSSJ » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:25 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
MathSSJ wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I find it hilarious that people complain about it being an asspull when not only the anime, but even the original manga is full of asspulls & nobody cares. Everyone wants Dragon Ball Super (both manga & anime) to be like One Piece or Naruto, where the whole plot is planned from the start and every plot-point is foreshadowed from years before it happens. It's not something that I dislike (and I love One Piece & Naruto), but this was never what Dragon Ball was, and it was never trying to become like that.
Maybe it's my skeptical ass, but neither Toyotaro or Toei's version of DBS can deliver the nonsense with the sincerity in their writing that the original run had. This is a bigger problem than any kind of mechanical or logical inconsistencies in both versions of the story.
No, the problem is that most of us were little kids when we saw DBZ, so we didn't have the same logic and the same expectations like now, so even now we don't care that much.
Why are you assuming it's got anything to do with nostalgia or that I am even one of those that watched DBZ as a kid? Why are you assuming I care about the leaps in logic or mechanical inconsistencies above anything else? Hell, if anything I think both versions of DBS aren't nutty enough.

The Anime will be inconsistent by nature, I've long since come to terms with it and expect the occasional greatness with the utter garbage mixed in. Toyotaro's DBS though? It's one of the most sterile and lifeless, particularly it's lead characters, pieces of DB media, exceedingly focused on pedantic minutiae that the fandom obsesses so much, most likely because... Toyotaro is one of us.

I've seen discussed here that Toyotaro's arcs feel like they are structured like movies and I agree. They just feel less like Battle of Gods 3 and 4 and more akin to Resurrection F 2 and 3.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:37 am

TKA wrote:
Gog wrote:Here is that it's simply an asspull that (as far as I'm aware) has had no foreshadowing as well. That's the only real problem I can actually find with it in the first place.
After reading 20+ pages of complaints, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that "asspull," as used here, simply means "Plot point I don't agree with." This isn't an asspull simply because the manga isn't betraying its rules, or the rules established in Toriyama's original work.

I can't fathom why people don't just wait for things to unfold. There's literally nothing implying that how Goku learned the technique won't be a discussion point. Toyotaro explains everything that happens in the manga, even if it takes some chapters to do so. We go through this same song and dance every single month.
Super (especially the anime) has really never explained everything in regards to new techniques / Rage Trunks. Why would this be any different?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by fexus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:45 am

Zephyr wrote:
fexus wrote:You are severely downplaying the GoD job. It's not like it's something like the job of a President or an occupation like a martial artist or farmer. It's a cosmic thing that just by the death of the GoD the angel will go to slumber and the related Kai will die.
Are you just pulling an "I'm rubber, you're glue!" thing with what I just said, or is there actually a single thing I'm doing to downplay the role that a God of Destruction plays? The suggestion that they don't have a job-exclusive technique really does this? What, was the role somehow not valuable, impressive, important, or meaningful to you prior to Beerus killing Zamasu with this supposedly-Hakaishin-exclusive technique? Kind of late in the game to start worshiping them like this.
fexus wrote:Having the hakai is a symbol of the status of a GoD.
So we're just making things up now?
fexus wrote:Trunks is just a saiyan.
Who trained under a Kaioshin. You're fine with a technique being tied to the God of Destruction job (so committed to the idea, in fact, that you're apparently filled with disgust over this turning out to be untrue), but you're vehemently against a technique being tied to the Kaioshin's Attendant job? I'm getting mixed signals, here. Damned if the manga does, damned if the manga doesn't.
fexus wrote:Not downplaying Goku but the harder technique he does have to learn it properly. For example, every technique you just listed out are techniques that he needed to learn.
And we're assuming Goku didn't learn this for what reason? It seems like you're making an assumption for the sole purpose of taking issue with it. Of course he learned it, there's no other way he'd be using it right now.
fexus wrote:the manga isn't that well written as you guys seem to gush about.
That your criticism of it relies almost exclusively on incredibly pedantic nitpicks, grasping at straws, demonstrably-false premises, and a dogmatic attachment to assumptions is only convincing me otherwise.
When Beerus first shows up yes. He literally is not that important then. He's just a strong guy with a different type of ki that happens to be close with the other gods. Then we figure more things about him until we learn that he have that special destruction technique he uses on Zamasu. Now we know that he isn't just a God of Destruction by name. He literally have a technique that can erase people.

What does hakai means again? What does the God of DESTRUCTION do? Oh, he makes stuff. Other people can have that technique. You know, the technique to literally erase things from existence. Whoops, not important to a god of destruction enough. I mean it's just a technique right. Not like the anime makes it look exclusive. Just me making things up.

Because one is a job that is inherently for fruit people and the other is said that anyone else can have. Learn and know the difference. I can, why can't you? I mean if Trunks become the Guardian of earth and gain that healing technique, I wouldn't care because it's a job that anyone can have.

My critcism? Watch the anime and read the manga. Do both. I can see that the anime is more exciting and more gripping. The manga is just slow, boring and being different for the sake of being different. Goku and Vegeta against Zamasu was boring. Trunks was boring. Vegito was dissapointing. And now the plot point of Zamasu having to separate is useless because he wants to stay fuse and cellular level or something. Dissapointing and boring. Both of the things that I thought I wouldn't have to say about dragon ball at the same time. But the art is good at least. That's a plus.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:52 am

Doctor. wrote:And it was just as bad then. How is this an argument? "The original manga had bad things that took people's immersion away and lessened their enjoyment, so this means Super should too."
That's not what I'm trying to say. People didn't go "Toriyama is a terrible writer, WTF is this bullshit, I'm dropping the manga" back then because, for example, the earrings that the Kaioshin were wearing conveniently turned out to be the powerful Potara earrings out of nowhere, or because Namekians could merge with each other out of nowhere, or because Vegeta could create a fake moon out of nowhere.

Personally, I don't find it bad at all. This was something that I always acknowledged in the original manga/anime, and it was one of the things I liked about it.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:12 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Doctor. wrote:And it was just as bad then. How is this an argument? "The original manga had bad things that took people's immersion away and lessened their enjoyment, so this means Super should too."
That's not what I'm trying to say. People didn't go "Toriyama is a terrible writer, WTF is this bullshit, I'm dropping the manga" back then because, for example, the earrings that the Kaioshin were wearing conveniently turned out to be the powerful Potara earrings out of nowhere, or because Namekians could merge with each other out of nowhere, or because Vegeta could create a fake moon out of nowhere.

Personally, I don't find it bad at all. This was something that I always acknowledged in the original manga/anime, and it was one of the things I liked about it.
They were kids and/or didn't have to wait one week/month for the next episode or chapter. Those things today are very heavily criticized.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:59 am

Doctor. wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Doctor. wrote:And it was just as bad then. How is this an argument? "The original manga had bad things that took people's immersion away and lessened their enjoyment, so this means Super should too."
That's not what I'm trying to say. People didn't go "Toriyama is a terrible writer, WTF is this bullshit, I'm dropping the manga" back then because, for example, the earrings that the Kaioshin were wearing conveniently turned out to be the powerful Potara earrings out of nowhere, or because Namekians could merge with each other out of nowhere, or because Vegeta could create a fake moon out of nowhere.

Personally, I don't find it bad at all. This was something that I always acknowledged in the original manga/anime, and it was one of the things I liked about it.
They were kids and/or didn't have to wait one week/month for the next episode or chapter. Those things today are very heavily criticized.
That's the thing though, they aren't, and don't deserve to be, because there's nothing wrong with them. Not everything needs foreshadowing, all you need to introduce something radically new is an idea that adheres to established precedents. For example, the 1-hour potara retcon was bad because we were explicitly told and beforehand that it lasted forever, a fact that had been in place for decades without any sign of change. Something like that needs foreshadowing beforehand to work. Whereas the introduction of potara itself, or Vegeta being able to create a moon, or Goku's use of the destruction technique is absolutely fine despite the lack of foreshadowing because it's an intentionally, continuity sound subversion of expectations.

There are contexts in which you have to judge these things, not everything that's convenient or lacking in foreshadowing is bad.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:03 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
MathSSJ wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I find it hilarious that people complain about it being an asspull when not only the anime, but even the original manga is full of asspulls & nobody cares. Everyone wants Dragon Ball Super (both manga & anime) to be like One Piece or Naruto, where the whole plot is planned from the start and every plot-point is foreshadowed from years before it happens. It's not something that I dislike (and I love One Piece & Naruto), but this was never what Dragon Ball was, and it was never trying to become like that.
Maybe it's my skeptical ass, but neither Toyotaro or Toei's version of DBS can deliver the nonsense with the sincerity in their writing that the original run had. This is a bigger problem than any kind of mechanical or logical inconsistencies in both versions of the story.
No, the problem is that most of us were little kids when we saw DBZ, so we didn't have the same logic and the same expectations like now, so even now we don't care that much.
That might be part of it too, but I think Toriyama has rare talent as a bullshit wizard where he can deliver nonsense in a way that doesn't pull you out of the story. The Buu saga is a cornucopia of asspulls but it somehow works. Toyo tries but I don't think he's skilled enougn as a writer to sell it the same way.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MyNiggaGoku » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:44 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
MathSSJ wrote: Maybe it's my skeptical ass, but neither Toyotaro or Toei's version of DBS can deliver the nonsense with the sincerity in their writing that the original run had. This is a bigger problem than any kind of mechanical or logical inconsistencies in both versions of the story.
No, the problem is that most of us were little kids when we saw DBZ, so we didn't have the same logic and the same expectations like now, so even now we don't care that much.
That might be part of it too, but I think Toriyama has rare talent as a bullshit wizard where he can deliver nonsense in a way that doesn't pull you out of the story. The Buu saga is a cornucopia of asspulls but it somehow works. Toyo tries but I don't think he's skilled enougn as a writer to sell it the same way.
The thing is,we grew up with the bullshit Tori did back then in the original manga,thus a nostalgia barrier will always protect these things.Now that we are able to judge things more substantially,we may find similar bullshit that Toyo does inexcusable.

Some newcomers in the fandom that are of some age,may not excuse Toriyama for the asspulls he did and thus,will find the whole story extremely flawed.Dragon Ball has always been that way,whether we like it or not(although by being here,we obviously like it :lol:)
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:55 pm

The problem isn't that the out-of-nowhere plot devices were good or bad back then, it's that they exist. As a fan of Dragon Ball, you have to at worst be okay with them and at best enjoy the unpredictable nature they bring to the story.

(Not that I think Goku's Hakai is out-of-nowhere.)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:20 pm

Gog wrote:I feel like everyone's real problem with Goku performing the Hakai isn't that it somehow devalues the technique. Considering that Goku is technically a God, and seeing the Hakai technique would want to make Goku learn it.

The real problem here is that it's simply an asspull that (as far as I'm aware) has had no foreshadowing as well. That's the only real problem I can actually find with it in the first place.
batistabus wrote:Goku witnesses Hakai:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
I wouldn't call that a Hakai, so much as Beerus just rage quitting in an extremely comedic fasion.
This is exactly the problem most of us have. Not sure why it's getting reduced to "we want Haki to stay unique".
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:43 pm

The hakai bugs me because of that scene in the anime where Goku sees Beerus destroy Zamasu. If that had been in the manga it would have served perfectly as the set-up, I think.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:22 pm

Basako wrote:Well, if they established in the manga that Gohan became an attendant and a healer since his ritual, it wouldn't be out of sense. But I think we have enough healers with Dende, Kibito an Boo, plus the senzus. For me, it has more weight that Shin personally performed the ritual for Trunks, it's an assumption that this is a requirement, but makes enough sense.
Oh, absolutely. I just mean for the Tournament of Power, I think having Gohan as "the healer" would give him more of a distinct combat role than a lot of the others. And he's felt like more of a supporting character for a long time now, so relegating him to a "support" role in combat just seems fitting to me. Much more than him being a damsel in distress. :P
fexus wrote:When Beerus first shows up yes. He literally is not that important then. He's just a strong guy with a different type of ki that happens to be close with the other gods. Then we figure more things about him until we learn that he have that special destruction technique he uses on Zamasu. Now we know that he isn't just a God of Destruction by name. He literally have a technique that can erase people.

What does hakai means again? What does the God of DESTRUCTION do? Oh, he makes stuff. Other people can have that technique. You know, the technique to literally erase things from existence. Whoops, not important to a god of destruction enough. I mean it's just a technique right.
Alright, so it sounds more like you just like the technique, rather than the Gods of Destruction. They're only cool when they have the technique, and they weren't cool or interesting before. I don't think we're going to make anymore progress in that part of the conversation.
fexus wrote:Not like the anime makes it look exclusive. Just me making things up.
It's not like the manga is bound to a single thing the anime does.
fexus wrote:Because one is a job that is inherently for fruit people and the other is said that anyone else can have.
When was it confirmed that Kibito was a Shinjin?
fexus wrote:I mean if Trunks become the Guardian of earth and gain that healing technique, I wouldn't care because it's a job that anyone can have.
Becoming Kami didn't grant Dende the healing ability. He had it since he was a small child on Namek. That one isn't tied to a Godly job. Which means that healing, as a general thing, isn't something reserved for Gods. That means that a non-God gaining a healing ability coheres with what's already been established just fine.
fexus wrote:My critcism? Watch the anime and read the manga. Do both. I can see that the anime is more exciting and more gripping. The manga is just slow, boring and being different for the sake of being different. Goku and Vegeta against Zamasu was boring. Trunks was boring. Vegito was dissapointing. And now the plot point of Zamasu having to separate is useless because he wants to stay fuse and cellular level or something. Dissapointing and boring. Both of the things that I thought I wouldn't have to say about dragon ball at the same time. But the art is good at least. That's a plus.
Again, excitement is fleeting. Trust me, I'm excited to watch each new episode every week. I really, truly am. However, the episodes that I'm actually eager to rewatch comprise a very small minority. They still have longevity in isolation, but if I have to watch the entire series surrounding them to fully appreciate what they're doing narratively, then I'm simply never going to do that again, and they're ultimately only useful for short moments in a YouTube video. There are too many extremely poor episodes to slog through. If a chapter of the manga is boring, that certainly sucks, but at least it only takes me a few minutes to get through. I'm not sitting there for several 20 minute increments hoping it picks up.

If you want to talk about things in the manga that were disappointing: rushing the ending of the Champa arc was disappointing. Finding out Goku Black's identity as easily as we did was disappointing. The fusion not turning out to be the villains' creative way around the Mafuba was disappointing. Lack of crazy-as-fuck cloud Zamasu is disappointing. That some things disappoint me isn't enough to dislike the thing, though.

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And, alright. I didn't want to go down this rabbit hole again, but here we go:

When comparing to the anime, most of the problems people seem to have with the manga are odd, random, small little nitpicks. Asspull this, asspull that. I wan't mindlessly entertained! These complaints miss the forest for the trees, which is odd considering there are just as many trees to complain about in the anime, if not far more. When we're talking about the forest, however, the anime is substantially on a lower plane of existence. Let's talk about that forest!

Why even making a serialized TV anime series was a bad decision:

The anime doesn't merely have isolated little moments of boredom and mere disappointment. It is fundamentally, at its very core, not an authentic continuation of Dragon Ball, in the sense of everything Dragon Ball's original anime truly was and was comprised of that made it as awesome as it was. Sure, it's officially licensed and distributed. Sure, the rough story beats come from the hand of the original author. And sure, they're using the characters and world established in Dragon Ball. But as an anime series with a character designer and a musical score, as a narrative with characters who have arcs and have changed and developed over time, Super's anime is doing a poor job of continuing where Dragon Ball Z left off in 1996, in the same direction, with the same momentum.

We don't have Minoru Maeda as the character designer, the guy who could perfectly imitate Toriyama's artstyle during peak Dragon Ball; instead we have Tadayoshi Yamamuro, whose art is 90% of the time absolutely fucking putrid, and looks like really subpar fanart (you can say Toyotaro's art looks like 'fanart' as well, but it's at the very least of a distinctly higher level of quality than Yamamuro's). Everyone looks bloated, glossy, and shiny. At least the manga's being drawn by someone who can reasonably imitate Toriyama's old art style. There's also a distinct lack of film grain, which had been intentionally added to the original, and which had the effect of giving the show a sort of 'dated' feel, which went perfectly along with its nature as a Wuxia kung fu story.

We don't have as solid of a voice cast this time around. Several key people either died or had to retire for their health. Everyone else is much, much older. Nobody is in their prime anymore, and several people are gone. Chief among them is the original narrator. Trust me, Nozawa's still absolutely fucking killing it, but the fact that the whole gang isn't all here still leaves a very sour taste. At least the manga doesn't have to worry about time gradually catching up to a large cast of VAs.

We don't have Shunsuke Kikuchi's all-too-fitting Wuxia-kung fu-movie-styled musical score to complement the Wuxia-kung fu-movie-styled cartoon series. Instead we have Norihito Sumitomo's rough, largely bland, and largely poorly placed, catalog of work, that only started to reach a reasonable level 47 episodes in. We also don't have Hironobu Kageyama pouring his fucking soul into the opening themes and insert songs. We have someone who sounds like he's half-awake droning on the microphone for the first 76 episodes. At least the manga doesn't have to worry about finding more authentic sounding music.

We don't have a manga, written by a single person, creating the core base of the narrative and the character writing. Instead, we have a team of writers adapting Toriyama's bullet points into a narrative. A committee can't imitate Toriyama's storytelling quirks. Characters have regressed, characters have become caricatures of themselves, and Krillin's had to get his groove back at least 4 different times in the anime. At least the manga has a consistent vision for the narrative and the characters, under one single writer (said writer being Toriyama's protege). And, dude, you want to talk about actual, legitimate plot holes? One of the most egregious examples of one in the entire franchise is where Goku Black is supposed to have come from. The Super anime gives us a good old grandfather paradox, where his own actions cause him to cause those same actions.

Animation is not my hill to die on, by any means. I understand that the anime suffered from really poor animation initially, and has since made more regular improvements. Since it's not my hill to die on, I'm not quite sure when this turning point happened, but the point is that this was also very bad for a quite a long time. And, that's in no way meant to disservice the stellar stuff we've been seeing as of late. When Super's animation has its highs, they're very high! But the individual well-animated cuts aren't worth, in my eyes, slogging through Yamamuro's art, Sumitomo's music, etc. for ~15 minutes each episode, when I could just look the scene up on Sakuga or YouTube, and receive the same (if not elevated) satisfaction.

Other things that contribute to this overarching problem of inauthenticity, but don't exactly bug me as much as all of the above: the color palette and the sound effects aren't what they used to be.

Why making the anime series this large and dense was a bad idea:

The time period these stories take place in doesn't benefit a long, serialized story, if they're not going to really develop the characters substantially. Super is an interquel. It's being retroactively inserted into a story with an ending we already know, with characters whose arcs were already completed before the 10 year gap. If you're going to have a 100+ episode long serialized anime, an interquel is not the time or place to do that, unless you're focusing on different characters. Instead, we're seeing Goku and Vegeta just be themselves over the course of 100+ episodes. They're not really developing, changing, or growing, because they're not supposed to over the course of this 10 year gap! At least with films and short manga arcs, the stories can exist as little pocket adventures, loosely connected to one another. The characters don't need to grow, because these are small, closely-connected side stories that happened after the characters had finished developing. We don't need to spend 100+ episodes to see these little plots play out.

And we don't just get a 100+ episode telling of this side story, we get a solid 27 episodes of redundant content; that's nine hours. The retelling arcs are absolutely fucking indefensible. No, people didn't need to know the plots of the two movies to 'jump in', Dragon Ball is supposed to be interesting and appealing to the point where anyone could jump in wherever and still be grabbed (see: every single fan on the planet who didn't start with episode 1 of DB, i.e. everyone who started with Z). Two films just came out, you don't have to spend 27 episodes retelling them. And no, skipping them doesn't solve the issue. We're talking about the anime on the whole, which indisputably wastes the first 27 episodes of its life. The manga retold some shit as well, but it had the good grace to only do that for one film, do it quickly, and use it as an opportunity to introduce Champa. And that's not yet factoring in the 14 episodes of inter-arc filler accompanying that. Taken together, we have 41 episodes of absolutely pointless or redundant content, and thus almost 14 hours of pointless content. And even that's not factoring in all of the needless in-episode padding that happens, or the needlessly-dense recruitment section of the Universe Survival arc. Tell me to skip all of those episodes all you want, but you're still telling me to just "ignore the bad parts" in order to enjoy it more. If I have to actively ignore large chunks of a product in order to enjoy it, then it's a bad product. The manga needn't ask this of me.

I might get excited to see new plot developments play out for the first time (as everyone is pretty much forced to through the anime), but when it looks like crap most of the time, sounds like crap most of the time, is written like crap most of the time, and takes a long time to get through, it's not all that "gripping" on a second viewing; it's worse than boring, it's actively grating. And if there isn't going to be a second, third, etc. viewing, then there really shouldn't be this much content. It's just a waste of time, effort, and money at that point.

If there's only one part of my post you pay attention to, it's this:

Anime, as a medium, requires a much larger variety of art forms be combined in order to create the final work (art, animation, music, writing, voice acting, etc). As such, there are more things that need to be done right, by a much larger group of people. The original Dragon Ball/Z anime actually pulled this off very well, by having a stellar lineup of very talented individuals. As time goes on, people age, contracts expire. Skills deteriorate, retirement becomes a necessity, and in some cases, unfortunately, the grim reaper comes knocking. What this means is that, for a very old series like Dragon Ball, the longer time goes on, the more and more inherently difficult it's going to be to revive and continue that original work with the same level of quality. The team that captured lightning in a bottle can't get together anymore, and it absolutely shows that Toei hasn't been able to assemble a team to carry on that legacy.

In the manga, we only really need one guy, to carry on the legacy of one guy. Yes, that means if he fucks up, everything is fucked up. However, that also means that he's the only one we need to not fuck up. And the guy who is passing the torch to him is working closely with him. We don't have Kikuchi giving Sumitomo tips. We don't have Maeda giving Yamamuro tips. Unfortunately, more often than not, in the anime, several parties are substantially fucking things up.

You can voice all of the pedantic in-universe nitpicks you want for either version, and if that's all you do, they might appear equally mediocre. However, if you look at the big picture, if you actually look at the forest and not the trees, you might better understand why a lot of us greatly prefer the manga. I started this Super ride 2 years ago on the anime hype train, and only paid attention to the manga in order to see new stuff, because that's where the new stuff was. Now, however, 2 years later, I'm keeping up with the manga even though it's behind. Moreover, in an even more odd reversal, the manga is the only version of this story I'm going to be actively supporting with my wallet. I will buy every volume of the manga. I will not buy a single Super anime home release (and no, that's not meant to be an endorsement of piracy; it's not worth pirating in my eyes either). The anime is simply not worth spending money on, in my eyes, because it is fundamentally flawed from top to bottom, in just about every artistic dimension that comprises it. For every arc, there exists a much more well-made alternative (either a film, or a manga volume).
HeroR wrote:
Gog wrote:I feel like everyone's real problem with Goku performing the Hakai isn't that it somehow devalues the technique. Considering that Goku is technically a God, and seeing the Hakai technique would want to make Goku learn it.

The real problem here is that it's simply an asspull that (as far as I'm aware) has had no foreshadowing as well. That's the only real problem I can actually find with it in the first place.
batistabus wrote:Goku witnesses Hakai:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
I wouldn't call that a Hakai, so much as Beerus just rage quitting in an extremely comedic fasion.
This is exactly the problem most of us have. Not sure why it's getting reduced to "we want Haki to stay unique".
I'm not sure why:

>Goku lived with a Hakaishin and trained under a Hakaishin's sensei
>Beerus used a technique implied to be a Hakaishin thing
>Goku reveals he'd learned the technique

...is somehow so out of left field that it's actually cause for concern. I wasn't expecting it, sure, but it lines up reasonably well, and my not having expected it is kind of the point. It would be like if, in the Saiyan arc, Goku left Kaio's with no mention or reference to the Kaioken. Then, while Goku's on his way back to Enma's, some random guy shows up to Kaio's to fight him. Kaio beats him soundly using his technique: the Kaioken! Once Goku fights Nappa, we then see him use the Kaioken, as a nice little twist. It wasn't as obviously foreshadowed, but it lines up well enough.

I understand the two scenarios aren't 100% analogous, but the point is that in that hypothetical alternate take, and in the case of the deletion technique in the manga, seeds were planted that were later cultivated. Not every bit of foreshadowing has to be painfully-clearly telegraphed. Some things are allowed to be more unexpected than others. The more unexpected a thing is, the more shocking and interesting its reveal becomes. And unless it's so unexpected as to be clearly and explicitly contradictory (which, this whole affair isn't), then it has yet to cross that line into "too unexpected" territory. Like if Bulma revealed she's a martial arts master on par with Goku, or something.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:51 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:Super (especially the anime) has really never explained everything in regards to new techniques / Rage Trunks. Why would this be any different?
I don't care about what the Super anime does, so everything you mentioned there is irrelevant. The manga maintains internal consistency. That's what matters, and what I'm talking about.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

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