"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Grimlock]

Strictly speaking, they did. Gohan and Goku, through different scenarios where his battle power spiked in a fits of rage, became far stronger than Kami (God), King Kai (another God) and Kaioshin (yet another God). Irrespective of their strength, Kami, King Kai and Kaioshin are considered Gods by their position, so surpassing them in power does qualify as reaching the level of the Gods by virtue of technicality.

Yeah obviously. But we're strictly talking about Gods of Destruction and possibly angels here.

[BlueBasilisk]

Just because it is somewhat visually different doesn't mean it's a new form. He powered up through rage, what further explanation is needed? No one commented on his looks so why can't that just be a visual clue to the audience?

Rosé wasn't explained in the anime either and many people came to (correct) assumption it was because of Zamasu being a true deity, which the manga confirmed.

Didn't Vegeta get a weird pink tint when he went Super Saiyan That's My Bulma?

[alakazam^]

Using the manga to explained the manga isn't a good idea since the anime suggested that Black chose the color. Nothing about him already being a god.

I assume you mean using the manga to explain the anime, right? Where does it hint he chose the color?

Since pink hair comes from Toriyama and the only difference Black has from Goku is having Zamasu inside, it's logical it has something to do with that.

Didn't Vegeta get a weird pink tint when he went Super Saiyan That's My Bulma?

In the anime he had that but I'm not sure I see your point.

[superfan2024]

Flawed comparison. None of them reached the gods level in all those situations you mentioned.

We're not talking about Super Saiyan 3 Goku from Majin Buu saga, we're talking about Future Trunks saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku, the latter is much stronger than his self back in AGE 774.

But eh, I'm not surprised, if people accept Freeza training for four months and also reaches gods level (even being stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku), why can't Trunks right? You can reach god level, I can reach god level, he can reach god level... Everyone can reach god level in such a short time and/or with limited resources of training!

Reaching god level is the new "he's a prodigy"!

Frieza's reasoning is completely different from the others. Freeza is actually a prodigy. He has never trained a day in his life and he was already extremely powerful. Just think about it, a powerful being actually training for once, for four straight months. Of course he would reach the strength of a god. Trunks should not be as strong as a god, no matter how much he has trained. The strongest he should be is around SSJ3 leve or a little bit stronger, and that's what the manga did exactly. If the anime explained how or why he SSJRage was as strong as it was, then there wouldn't be all this discussion or confusion. The anime had no explanation as to what that form is, and we still to this day do not even know what that form is. The manga had a much better and much more convincing reason as to why Trunks was SSJ3 level.

[SaiyanGod117]

Apparently it's now an ass pull when a Saiyan gets really angry and accesses new high levels of power.

Because this never happened when Goku got angry and turned into a Super Saiyan. It never happened when Vegeta got angry and surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan with just his Super Saiyan 2. It never happened over and over again with Gohan nor did he tap into a completely new transformation either upon getting angry.

No this only ever happened with Trunks.

In the way Trunks's transformation was introduced and inherent qualities of it; yes it's an asspull. Look past your preconceived notions please and take off your rose tinted glasses.

[TheMikado]

Apparently it's now an ass pull when a Saiyan gets really angry and accesses new high levels of power.

Because this never happened when Goku got angry and turned into a Super Saiyan. It never happened when Vegeta got angry and surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan with just his Super Saiyan 2. It never happened over and over again with Gohan nor did he tap into a completely new transformation either upon getting angry.

No this only ever happened with Trunks.

In the way Trunks's transformation was introduced and inherent qualities of it; yes it's an asspull. Look past your preconceived notions please and take off your rose tinted glasses.

These transformations were teased for years sometimes. The building up to SSJ was still in the Saiyan saga, we didn't even see it until the end of the next arc after a ton of zenkai shenanigans. We went through the whole "grade" rotation and MSSJ before we even go a sniff of the enraged SSJ form. With SSJ3, we can say it's out of nowhere but it's a form which hasn't been achieved by any character through normal circumstances, same with ultimate which also was based on Gohan's potential which has been teased since his introduction.

Point is Trunk was never foreshadowed as some ultra special potential saiyan who would have achieved SSG level power in a day from sparring with a SSB Vegeta.

Previously these forms were long hard fought gains which happened through a combination of sheer brute force, endurance shattering total commitment training, raw tenacity and rage, and playing dumb luck. Without every single factor in concert you feel they could have never pulled it off and are lucky to be alive. With these you feel like their execution and achievement are so simplified there's no build up and the pay off fails painfully flat.

Just for the record no one complains about the way Goku achieved SSB because there was obvious hard work to get there from SSG. Of course people complain about Vegeta because that crap still to this day hasn't been explained and as far as we know in the anime SSG isn't a prerequisite unlike the manga so at least we know however Vegeta got it he has to work himself up one level at a time.

[BlueBasilisk]

In the anime he had that but I'm not sure I see your point.

I wanted to confirm whether or not he did because I think it supports your point that the difference in appearance for SSRage might have just been for the viewer's benefit. Vegeta turned pink but nobody ever acknowledged that he looked different.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Just because it is somewhat visually different doesn't mean it's a new form. He powered up through rage, what further explanation is needed? No one commented on his looks so why can't that just be a visual clue to the audience?

The problem is, why didn't he transform earlier? He had more reasons to get even more angry before, seeing Black killing everyone and especially his own mother or later when he saw Mai "die" right in front of him. If he had gotten this form earlier, he wouldn't have to go back to the past and ask help from Goku & Vegeta since Black couldn't trasnform at that point, and SSRage Trunks wouldn't fuck around like Goku & Vegeta.

At least the SS1/2/3 & SSG2/3 forms have been established to require the Saiyan to have reached a certain level of power for them to be able to transform on top of rage, while SSG/B require special conditions. If Trunks was already strong enough to transform, why couldn't he before? What special conditions did Super Saiyan Rage have that he hadn't met in his previous fights with Black, but later managed to meet?

Rosé wasn't explained in the anime either and many people came to (correct) assumption it was because of Zamasu being a true deity, which the manga confirmed.

And this is just as bad. What the anime did was make Black a Super Saiyan with pink hair. No explanation why this happened, or if this was his version of regular Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Blue.

Not that the manga is that much better though. Like the anime, the manga never explained how base & SS with God power works either. And no, the manga didn't really avoid this by not showing Goku absorbing SSG's power in BoG arc. Base/SS Black appears to be in that state, and then it looks like he lost it after becoming SSRose (like Goku & Vegeta apparently mysteriously lost it after their time inside the RoSaT).

None of that would matter, if it wasn't said that Trunks had the upper hand in his battle against Goku. He trained from AGE 788 to AGE 796 (it's an eight-year timeskip, coincidentally it is almost same timeskip from Cell to Buu, Trunks should got Super Saiyan 3 and his power level should be about the same power level seen in the beginning of the saga since Vegeta only got a Super Saiyan 2 without this new power-up that the form has), with limited resources on Earth; then he got a little training from Kaioshin of East but only to be prepared to fight Babidi (since Kaioshin of East didn't know Dabura was with him). Are you telling me that all of that enough for Trunks to be able to be stronger than a:

• post-Majin Buu saga (great increase of power by Super Saiyan 3 plus training)
• post-Movie 14 (great increase of power by Super Saiyan God plus training)
• post-Movie 15 (great increase of power by training with Whis and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan plus more training)
• post-Universe 6 saga (more training)

Future Trunks saga Super Saiyan 3 Goku? Yeah, it is an asspull.

Trunks is a Saiyan Halfling. Back in the original manga, he reached Namek arc Goku's level on his own after 3 years, when 3 years before that training base Gohan could casually handle SS Trunks with one hand. And he had the same resources that he had now.

Also, base/SS Trunks isn't portrayed as stronger than base Goku or Vegeta, they are at around the same level since SS2 Trunks initially held back to his regular SS2 level against SS2 Goku and they were equals. Trunks upgraded his SS2 form through training because that was his answer to surpassing regular SS2. Goku's answer was SS3, while Vegeta accidentally reached an even more upgraded SS2 form in his fight with Beerus.

[Bullza]

Apparently it's now an ass pull when a Saiyan gets really angry and accesses new high levels of power.

Because this never happened when Goku got angry and turned into a Super Saiyan. It never happened when Vegeta got angry and surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan with just his Super Saiyan 2. It never happened over and over again with Gohan nor did he tap into a completely new transformation either upon getting angry.

No this only ever happened with Trunks.

In the way Trunks's transformation was introduced and inherent qualities of it; yes it's an asspull. Look past your preconceived notions please and take off your rose tinted glasses.

No, he's a Saiyans and Saiyans have been shown multiple to tap into vast amounts of power and sometimes transform upon getting angry.

It happened with Goku, Gohan and Vegeta and now it happened with Trunks. So no it's not an ass pull for something that has happened several times before to happen again.

Beerus hit Bulma, Vegeta got angry, his strength skyrocketed.

Black mocked Trunks, he got angry, his strength skyrocketed and he just changed appearance as well.

[TheMikado]

Apparently it's now an ass pull when a Saiyan gets really angry and accesses new high levels of power.

Because this never happened when Goku got angry and turned into a Super Saiyan. It never happened when Vegeta got angry and surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan with just his Super Saiyan 2. It never happened over and over again with Gohan nor did he tap into a completely new transformation either upon getting angry.

No this only ever happened with Trunks.

In the way Trunks's transformation was introduced and inherent qualities of it; yes it's an asspull. Look past your preconceived notions please and take off your rose tinted glasses.

No, he's a Saiyans and Saiyans have been shown multiple to tap into vast amounts of power and sometimes transform upon getting angry.

It happened with Goku, Gohan and Vegeta and now it happened with Trunks. So no it's not an ass pull for something that has happened several times before to happen again.

Beerus hit Bulma, Vegeta got angry, his strength skyrocketed.

Black mocked Trunks, he got angry, his strength skyrocketed and he just changed appearance as well.

Straight up anger alone has NEVER been shown to trounce someone. There is always a combination of build up when they have to train enough for their power boost to even be relatively effective in battle. It as stated earlier these characters are always shown to just at the cusp of this power having worked for and achieved it on their own. The emotional push isn't what gives them the power, it's the merely the catalyst to release whats already there which they've cultivated. What's being displayed is a fundamental lack of understanding of why DB is the granddaddy of shonen. It's because the characters journey mean something and the transformation was merely the payoff for their long hard work, not the means for achieving new transformations.

Basically the characters aren't putting the same amount of work into achieving the new levels as they have in the past so when it happens, even through similar stimuli, it's feels cheap and unearned. Because it is.

[Bullza]

Straight up anger alone has NEVER been shown to trounce someone. There is always a combination of build up when they have to train enough for their power boost to even be relatively effective in battle. It as stated earlier these characters are always shown to just at the cusp of this power having worked for and achieved it on their own. The emotional push isn't what gives them the power, it's the merely the catalyst to release whats already there which they've cultivated. What's being displayed is a fundamental lack of understanding of why DB is the granddaddy of shonen. It's because the characters journey mean something and the transformation was merely the payoff for their long hard work, not the means for achieving new transformations.

Basically the characters aren't putting the same amount of work into achieving the new levels as they have in the past so when it happens, even through similar stimuli, it's feels cheap and unearned. Because it is.

Trunks didn't trounce anyone either, he powered up but still kept getting his ass kicked.

There was no buildup when Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Gotenks, Buu and Ultimate Gohan. Beerus slapped Bulma, he got angry and his power went through the roof. His power grew more from that little slap than all the training and hard work he did throughout the series.

They trained and did hard work for months in the Resurrection F saga to achieve new forms. Gohan was supposed to have trained with Piccolo for months. Frieza trained hard for four months. Roshi was said to have been training the whole time. They all train, Trunks would have trained and so on, it's no different.

[TheMikado]

Straight up anger alone has NEVER been shown to trounce someone. There is always a combination of build up when they have to train enough for their power boost to even be relatively effective in battle. It as stated earlier these characters are always shown to just at the cusp of this power having worked for and achieved it on their own. The emotional push isn't what gives them the power, it's the merely the catalyst to release whats already there which they've cultivated. What's being displayed is a fundamental lack of understanding of why DB is the granddaddy of shonen. It's because the characters journey mean something and the transformation was merely the payoff for their long hard work, not the means for achieving new transformations.

Basically the characters aren't putting the same amount of work into achieving the new levels as they have in the past so when it happens, even through similar stimuli, it's feels cheap and unearned. Because it is.

Trunks didn't trounce anyone either, he powered up but still kept getting his ass kicked.

There was no buildup when Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Gotenks, Buu and Ultimate Gohan. Beerus slapped Bulma, he got angry and his power went through the roof. His power grew more from that little slap than all the training and hard work he did throughout the series.

They trained and did hard work for months in the Resurrection F saga to achieve new forms. Gohan was supposed to have trained with Piccolo for months. Frieza trained hard for four months. Roshi was said to have been training the whole time. They all train, Trunks would have trained and so on, it's no different.

I hope you understand the "My Bulma" segment is one of the reasons I absolutely hate modern Dragonball right?
These characters aren't even training an entire year let alone 3 like they didn't in the android saga, they aren't even using the RoSaT!! Just to make it believable, we have characters training for literally HOURS and suddenly reaching new levels of power. That's why people hate it.

No one gives a crap about who triggered what or what emotional response a character had. It's that their traing experience, their build up is completely cheapened when compared to previous arcs. That's what the problem is. They literally took the borderline ass pulls of the Buu arc and made them 1000x worse and then expected people not to hate something that was already a major complaint. Just cause they did it bad previously doesn't give you license and justification to do it 1000x worse now!

[SaiyanGod117]

No, he's a Saiyans and Saiyans have been shown multiple to tap into vast amounts of power and sometimes transform upon getting angry.

No as in what, you can't look past your point of view? While it's true Saiyans are known to tap into vast reserves of power while angry there's always been a specific criteria to be meet before hand for something like that to happen. I.E. rigorous amounts of training, attaining mastery over a certain level or transformation, and than a emotional event to bring about that power. The thing is though, even if Trunks meet this criteria his transformation will still be bullshit because of the level of power he attained from it. In addition, to it being a clear as day plot convince for Trunks to join in on the fight.

It happened with Goku, Gohan and Vegeta and now it happened with Trunks. So no it's not an ass pull for something that has happened several times before to happen again.

Just because they're inherently the same, doesn't mean it's contextually the same. Goku and Gohan cases are completely different from Trunks, no comparison at all.

Beerus hit Bulma, Vegeta got angry, his strength skyrocketed.

I don't condone it, however it amounted to nothing, Vegeta still got his ass beat and the power he gained from it wasn't that much at all. It was an easy blemish to look over, because that's all it was a blemish, a minor flaw that would fade away shortly.

Black mocked Trunks, he got angry, his strength skyrocketed and he just changed appearance as well.

Trunks was fighting Black for a couple years and he's most likely been mocked by him for a couple years, not only that, but he killed his mother, almost killed Mai, and most of his Earth's population. Which in-turn set him back into a even further place of grief and sorrow, when the androids were terrorizing his timeline. Ultimately, it's complete bullshit that this one silly mock was the one to send him over the edge.

[alakazam^]

The problem is, why didn't he transform earlier? He had more reasons to get even more angry before, seeing Black killing everyone and especially his own mother or later when he saw Mai "die" right in front of him. If he had gotten this form earlier, he wouldn't have to go back to the past and ask help from Goku & Vegeta since Black couldn't trasnform at that point, and SSRage Trunks wouldn't fuck around like Goku & Vegeta.

At least the SS1/2/3 & SSG2/3 forms have been established to require the Saiyan to have reached a certain level of power for them to be able to transform on top of rage, while SSG/B require special conditions. If Trunks was already strong enough to transform, why couldn't he before? What special conditions did Super Saiyan Rage have that he hadn't met in his previous fights with Black, but later managed to meet?

Well, he just didn't but that could be asked for Goku, Gohan, Vegeeta, etc. Maybe at the time he was focused on getting to the past to deal with the issue, maybe Black saying it was all his fault was the last straw.

The manga never established they needed to be at a certain power to transform, though. It's a cheap answer but just because it didn't happen before it doesn't mean it couldn't happen now.

These transformations were teased for years sometimes. The building up to SSJ was still in the Saiyan saga, we didn't even see it until the end of the next arc after a ton of zenkai shenanigans. We went through the whole "grade" rotation and MSSJ before we even go a sniff of the enraged SSJ form. With SSJ3, we can say it's out of nowhere but it's a form which hasn't been achieved by any character through normal circumstances, same with ultimate which also was based on Gohan's potential which has been teased since his introduction.

Point is Trunk was never foreshadowed as some ultra special potential saiyan who would have achieved SSG level power in a day from sparring with a SSB Vegeta.

Previously these forms were long hard fought gains which happened through a combination of sheer brute force, endurance shattering total commitment training, raw tenacity and rage, and playing dumb luck. Without every single factor in concert you feel they could have never pulled it off and are lucky to be alive. With these you feel like their execution and achievement are so simplified there's no build up and the pay off fails painfully flat.

When were they teased for years? I can't say when Toriyama thought about Super Saiyajin for Goku but we know that's not how he usually worked, and definitely not with Gohan. What buildup did Vegeeta have besides wanting to become one?

Trunks is a hybrid just like Gohan, that's enough to make him special. His future self shows this to a degree because of the kind of life he had but his present self is a pretty good example.

Yeah, you can romanticize every single transformation or rage boost, be it "Rage" or grade 2. Being biased against the new stuff does you no favors when you're the one treating them differently.

I wanted to confirm whether or not he did because I think it supports your point that the difference in appearance for SSRage might have just been for the viewer's benefit. Vegeta turned pink but nobody ever acknowledged that he looked different.

Oh, I see. I don't think that's exactly the same since that scene looked like it had a screen filter instead of an actual change of color palette. Trunks' hair, however, is a perfect example.

The thing is though, even if Trunks meet this criteria his transformation will still be bullshit because of the level of power he attained from it.

The level of power to be kicked around by Black?

[HeroR]

Using the manga to explained the manga isn't a good idea since the anime suggested that Black chose the color. Nothing about him already being a god.

I assume you mean using the manga to explain the anime, right? Where does it hint he chose the color?

Since pink hair comes from Toriyama and the only difference Black has from Goku is having Zamasu inside, it's logical it has something to do with that.

Didn't Vegeta get a weird pink tint when he went Super Saiyan That's My Bulma?

In the anime he had that but I'm not sure I see your point.

When Black went Rose in the anime, he said "how do you like the color, isn't it human". Nothing about divine ki being within him when his line is similar to Golden Freeza.

[SaiyanGod117]

The thing is though, even if Trunks meet this criteria his transformation will still be bullshit because of the level of power he attained from it.

The level of power to be kicked around by Black?

Obstinate people like you, who have rigid outlook despite prevailing circumstances are extremely annoying. I don't know if you're just being close minded right now or just remember events incorrectly, subsequently after Trunks's unlocked his new transformation. He was shown to be able to not only fight Zamasu and Black simultaneously, but additionally gain the upper hand on them as well on two different occasions.

[TheMikado]

When were they teased for years? I can't say when Toriyama thought about Super Saiyajin for Goku but we know that's not how he usually worked, and definitely not with Gohan. What buildup did Vegeeta have besides wanting to become one?

Trunks is a hybrid just like Gohan, that's enough to make him special. His future self shows this to a degree because of the kind of life he had but his present self is a pretty good example.

Yeah, you can romanticize every single transformation or rage boost, be it "Rage" or grade 2. Being biased against the new stuff does you no favors when you're the one treating them differently.

I'm really confused by this..

Gohan's introduction to his inherit latent power was when Raditz had him sealed up in his spacecraft and thought his scouter was malfunctioning and stated his power level was 710.
Gohan didn't come busting out of the ship yet..
Goku and Piccolo show up, Raditz realizes Gohan may be that powerful..
Still doesn't bust out of the ship yet.
Raditz basically beats the crap out of Goku and Piccolo and only when Raditz is close to killing Goku after fooling him the first time does Gohan break out with 1300+ power level.
He hits Raditz once and Gohan goes out cold, still doesn't completely own him.
Fast forward and Piccolo has taken Gohan for training for a year to fight the saiyans.
Gets to the saiyan fight and is basically almost useless even with latent power and Piccolo training.
Gets to Namek, Potential unlocked and still doesn't own Frieza or the Ginyu force. We just get tastes of it his latent power awakening slowly.
Android saga, we find out there can be multiple super saiyans due to a mysterious youth.
We also find out Gohan gets to be a SSJ in the future.
Vegeta finds out he has a chance to be a SSJ too, something he's talking about since we met him.
3 YEARS in universe pass.
Vegeta shows up as a SSJ and explains how he did it.
We also see Gohan struggle to obtain SSJ when training with Goku.
Comes out and still doesn't seem to be stronger than Goku.
Goku foreshadows the whole time that Gohan is the one who can beat Cell.
All this tying back to his 4 year old self having latent power.
Now he's 6 years older, Literal YEARS and the guy finally fulfills that long payoff by going SSJ2.
Fast forward to Cell and he gains ultimate further building on that aspect of him being the naturally strongest.

Trunks does not have any of that foreshadowing. He wasn't particularly special with latent power in the Cell arc. Not in the past, not in present while training with Vegeta, and not in his own future. He literally was always just good enough. Even when fighting Dabura and Babidi. All those times he could have "Raged" into a higher form with his post apocalyptic future didn't happen. His one and only "rage" moment was the power up to SSJ which is arguably non-canon.
Trunks has ZERO established track record of rage boosting or latent powers even when he rightfully should.

That's the difference. The writers, not being true fans of Dragonball took a character specific trait and blanket applied it to everyone because they didn't actually study and absorb the reference work.

Gohan and Trunks ARE NOT EQUIVALENT. I'm not the one romanticizing here.

[JazzHands]

The anime rage mode is a gigantic asspull that he literally pulled out of nowhere because...

Reasons.

To be fair, this isn't the first time anger played in Trunk's life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI1JBdvPS74

That form at least had a decent explanation and didn't come completely out of left field like the Trunks Rage transformation in the FT arc.

So Trunks was not angry all the times he fought Black in his base form? Or when Bulma was killed? And Rage shouldnt elevate you from SS2 to being equal or stronger than the current SSB. That craps on all the training Goku and Vegeta did with Whis. And makes god ki a joke and not that special.

SS2 being stronger than Gokus SS3 makes sense. Goku never uses SS3 but only SS2 now a days. SS3 seems to be unatural forced transformation while SS2 is the purest form of Super Sayain.

[Zephyr]

Why is my "nitpick out-of-context Manga leaks" thread pretending to be the board's millionth shitty "power levels" thread?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, he just didn't but that could be asked for Goku, Gohan, Vegeeta, etc. Maybe at the time he was focused on getting to the past to deal with the issue, maybe Black saying it was all his fault was the last straw.

Still, it is really weird when Trunks doesn't transform after seeing Black killing countless people & children, his mother, and the woman, but he gets angry enough to transform after Black told him "This is all your fault!".

The manga never established they needed to be at a certain power to transform, though. It's a cheap answer but just because it didn't happen before it doesn't mean it couldn't happen now.

It was established that they had to train their asses to be able to transform, and the guidebooks confirmed this.