"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:31 am

LightBing wrote:
Exline wrote: It doesn't work in this type of arc? The whole point of the Tournament of Power was bear witness to the fighters from other universes that were hinted to be much stronger than Goku.
If anything its the perfect arc to be fleshing out the other universes, so we can decide how we feel about them and become interested in them. A large cast of characters that were made only to be meaningless after one hit should have never been made in the first place.

No random character deserves 20+ pages, you're over exaggerating D;
However, each character should get a proper elimination instead of being easily thrown off the stage.
I think Toyotaro was right to set up that some characters are easy to beat, but then he should slowly develop it to the point where most of the cast is at least able to take on Piccolo or the Androids at the very least. If we have every competitor at Earthling's level, this tournament is going to be very uninteresting to be reading.

A proper elimination doesn't have to take away too much focus from the main cast. What would be the point of introducing 5 other universes into the ToP if they are not going to have any impact in the story besides being fodder?
I reiterate my point, Mr. Toriyama gave this arc 48 minutes.
It's like with the all Tenkaichi Budokais: more than a hundred of the best fighters on Earth and the story cares about eight, with a couple extras having a few panels to serve as punching bags to Goku and company.

Just threw a random number. I completely agree that's the approach Toyotarõ needs to take but he still needs to cut a lot of people before getting there. 80 people is just too damn much.

The point is exactly that, to be fodder to hype up the main contenders. Like I said above, it's the Tenkaichi Budokai formula. It's a shame to waste all this potential but that's par the course. I just can't see developing more than 8/10 characters(U7 not included) to work in the set up we were given.
I don't think its too much of a daunting task to try and give certain characters some moments. I'm talking about interesting interactions, like Cabba being defeated by Frieza for his disdain for Saiyans. A unique elimination because of Frieza's experience with them. Or that Maji Kayo guy, who was seen doing well against goku, and overpowering Dyspo, but then Jiren enters and easily knocks him out. Pretty sure that would take a couple pages to do. Toyotaro has plenty of time to wrap up the arc, I don't understand why he would need to rush it.

I was not trying to imply we should get serious character development for all 80 fighters, I was trying to convey that the competitors not from the 3 main universes should be used in a certain way to give us a reason to care about them when they are erased. The impact of a Universe being erased would be meaningless if we didn't feel for those characters. That is why U9's erasure was so unsettling.



Btw, When you say 8 important characters, did you mean the final 8? (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Android 17, Frieza + Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo)?

If anything, I'm hoping the final 8/10 is characters from at least different universes, mostly U7, U6, and U11. It'd be an interesting set up imo instead of having those two universes showdown again.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:02 am

I'm more excited for this episode than the show. This one will determine whether the humans get a good showing or not, if they don't get owned by Frost we'll know.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:20 am

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Miracles wrote: "Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball, "

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ama-intro/
I’ll just repeat myself Incase it wasn’t clear th first time...

“thanks to the excellent staff that I was having keep continuing Dragon Ball

Side story doesn’t mean not part of the story and Toriyama clearly considers it a continuation of his Dragon Ball story.
No matter what you say, GT just CAN'T fit into the main timeline, so it's not a continuation of Toriyama's story. And don't give me that "but if Super ends with a memory wipe etc...". It won't, and even if it did it still can't happen because details like Kibito and Shin defusing are the proof that GT is non canon.
Just like “Super isn’t ending anytime soon” :roll:
No use debating it because Super ends in a couple of weeks so we will know for sure then. Then we can discuss what it will and won’t do.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cetra » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:31 am

Vegeta_Sama wrote: No matter what you say, GT just CAN'T fit into the main timeline, so it's not a continuation of Toriyama's story.
Dragon Ball vol. 34 cannot fit into the same timeline as vol. 35 because of a heavy error and yet it does, cool huh? Its called fiction. And no, it is not "proof". It is not scientifically possible to prove something this made-up. And it is also not possible to disprove something fictional when it comes to canonicity just because of inconsistencies because the overall nature of fiction allows inconsistencies and plotholes from the get-go through the mere fact that it has no actual physical substance that disallows State A Positive and State A Negative to co-exist. So, the tdlr version: Yes, fiction allows inconsistencies.
Last edited by Cetra on Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:42 am

Cetra wrote:Dragon Ball vol. 34 cannot fit into the same timeline as vol. 35 because of a heavy error and yet it does, cool huh?
And what "heavy error" would that be?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cetra » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:44 am

Grimlock wrote:
Cetra wrote:Dragon Ball vol. 34 cannot fit into the same timeline as vol. 35 because of a heavy error and yet it does, cool huh?
And what "heavy error" would that be?
Cell still being alive even though it has been established that his core is in his head. A plothole that only fans wave away with their own made-up explanations. Him still existing pretty much renders everything happening void if we say "uhh, plothole! it can't be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!oneoneone"
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:19 am

Cetra wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote: No matter what you say, GT just CAN'T fit into the main timeline, so it's not a continuation of Toriyama's story.
Dragon Ball vol. 34 cannot fit into the same timeline as vol. 35 because of a heavy error and yet it does, cool huh? Its called fiction. And no, it is not "proof". It is not scientifically possible to prove something this made-up. And it is also not possible to disprove something fictional when it comes to canonicity just because of inconsistencies because the overall nature of fiction allows inconsistencies and plotholes from the get-go through the mere fact that it has no actual physical substance that disallows State A Positive and State A Negative to co-exist. So, the tdlr version: Yes, fiction allows inconsistencies.
... Yes it can because it's the same goddam product, unlike GT ans Super. And just because something it's fictional it doesn't mean that we should forget about narrative consistency, especially when the inconsistecies are as big as the ones that Super created into GT (Tons of new forms , characters, and a certain someone who was fuses in GT and UNFUSED in Super). The Cell thing was just a classic Toryiama oversight. You people just need to accept that GT is at best an alternative timeline
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ToshioWrites » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:59 pm

The grand Priest wipes out everything that happened from BoG and onwards and makes it so Goku and Beerus never meet . There you go, now GT works :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:02 pm

Cetra wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote: No matter what you say, GT just CAN'T fit into the main timeline, so it's not a continuation of Toriyama's story.
Dragon Ball vol. 34 cannot fit into the same timeline as vol. 35 because of a heavy error and yet it does, cool huh? Its called fiction. And no, it is not "proof". It is not scientifically possible to prove something this made-up. And it is also not possible to disprove something fictional when it comes to canonicity just because of inconsistencies because the overall nature of fiction allows inconsistencies and plotholes from the get-go through the mere fact that it has no actual physical substance that disallows State A Positive and State A Negative to co-exist. So, the tdlr version: Yes, fiction allows inconsistencies.
JFC this is ridiculous

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:04 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:The grand Priest wipes out everything that happened from BoG and onwards and makes it so Goku and Beerus never meet . There you go, now GT works :lol:
Why would he do that? For shits and giggles?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:44 pm

Exline wrote: I don't think its too much of a daunting task to try and give certain characters some moments. I'm talking about interesting interactions, like Cabba being defeated by Frieza for his disdain for Saiyans. A unique elimination because of Frieza's experience with them. Or that Maji Kayo guy, who was seen doing well against goku, and overpowering Dyspo, but then Jiren enters and easily knocks him out. Pretty sure that would take a couple pages to do. Toyotaro has plenty of time to wrap up the arc, I don't understand why he would need to rush it.

I was not trying to imply we should get serious character development for all 80 fighters, I was trying to convey that the competitors not from the 3 main universes should be used in a certain way to give us a reason to care about them when they are erased. The impact of a Universe being erased would be meaningless if we didn't feel for those characters. That is why U9's erasure was so unsettling.



Btw, When you say 8 important characters, did you mean the final 8? (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Android 17, Frieza + Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo)?

If anything, I'm hoping the final 8/10 is characters from at least different universes, mostly U7, U6, and U11. It'd be an interesting set up imo instead of having those two universes showdown again.
Those type of interactions would be great and I'm expecting them but only on some characters. This not to break the rhythm of the rumble. Ideally we get that for 2 or some characters at minimum per Universe. More and you might start to drag the story, forcing contrivances in battle to explain why characters are standing around or not finishing their opponents.

I think we are not supposed to feel the death of each Universe. They should server as a doom countdown which ramps up the sense of urgency and panic until Universes with characters we are more knowledge about start going, like Universe 6. We aren't supposed to care about most of them.

What I had in mind, ignoring Universe 7 team:
Large(ish) Role:
Toppo, Jiren and Dyspo.
Caulifla, Hit, Kale, Cabba and Frost.
Ribrianne.
The Robot trio and their leader.
The Chameleon and the small guy.
Trio de Danger.
Someone from Universe 10?

Then you'd have some characters with cool techniques that are quickly dispatched, gag characters and such.

The rest are bodies.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cetra » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:51 pm

OLKv3 wrote: JFC this is ridiculous
No, it is basic logic. The axiom of the impossibility of a positive and negative state co-existing is simply not necessary in fiction. That is the sole reason why plotholes and other incoherencies do not matter. Whoever tries to deny that is majorly hypocritical. Fictional rules != reality rules (for those who do not know what "!=" means, it means "not equal" in computer science and other areas). It is impossible to disprove something fictional with an inconsistency if a creative authority intends to ignore it because that is what matters the most for that realm. Intent and the decision based on it has priority in fiction. Cell is fine because he is fictional. And the entire rest works exacty like that. That's it. No more and no less.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:28 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Miracles wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
That’s not what Toriyama said:

On GT:
“But thanks to the excellent staff that I was having keep continuing Dragon Ball, I was able to relax and leave it to them.”
"Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball, "

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ama-intro/
I’ll just repeat myself Incase it wasn’t clear th first time...

“thanks to the excellent staff that I was having keep continuing Dragon Ball

Side story doesn’t mean not part of the story and Toriyama clearly considers it a continuation of his Dragon Ball story.
Toriyama specifically states that Super happens during Dragonball, GT does not. Hence why it is an outside story of the real Dragonball.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:40 pm

Mikado this is your own interpretation of Toriyama's words, he is a professional and saying in an interview 'continuing Dragon Ball', given the context, can just as well mean it remains a product out there. When you look at the franchise GT cannot be be canon by any means, as 1) he was not behind it and 2) the very existence of Super makes it impossible.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:31 pm

Monaka in DBS Manga Volume 5
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Herms Translation of the Conversation : https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/973006966577483776

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:49 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:When you look at the franchise GT cannot be be canon by any means, as 1) he was not behind it and 2) the very existence of Super makes it impossible.
So if Toriyama literally said "GT is canon", that wouldn't mean anything?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:19 pm

Zephyr wrote:So if Toriyama literally said "GT is canon", that wouldn't mean anything?
Actually, it would mean everything. That would mean GT is canon.
Toriyama is the one who decides what is Dragonball, not the fandom.
Liquir wrote:Monaka in DBS Manga Volume 5
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Herms Translation of the Conversation : https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/973006966577483776
So are these little drawings in one of the chapters or like a cover page?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by winnersproof » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:01 am

Miracles wrote:
Liquir wrote:Monaka in DBS Manga Volume 5
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Herms Translation of the Conversation : https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/973006966577483776
So are these little drawings in one of the chapters or like a cover page?
It's a pretty common practice in manga to have a small drawing on the blank page between chapters. Toriyama had panels from the preceding chapter during Dragon Ball (there may have been some unique drawings too but I can't remember). Toyotaro likes to draw a little gag based on something from the chapter, which is what this one is!
VegettoEX wrote:It's completely blown out of proportion by fans who have never actually dealt with seeing Dragon Ball on a week-to-week basis before, are doing so in an era where the social media echo-chamber has never been more effective in regurgitating and parroting their own opinions back at them, have never seen something new for the first time in HD on a monitor six inches from their face, have no understanding of the animation industry, and see no irony at all in complaining about a product they have no legal right to even be watching in the first place.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:40 am

Zephyr wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:When you look at the franchise GT cannot be be canon by any means, as 1) he was not behind it and 2) the very existence of Super makes it impossible.
So if Toriyama literally said "GT is canon", that wouldn't mean anything?
But he didn't say this did he.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:48 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:When you look at the franchise GT cannot be be canon by any means, as 1) he was not behind it and 2) the very existence of Super makes it impossible.
So if Toriyama literally said "GT is canon", that wouldn't mean anything?
But he didn't say this did he.
Not the point. You're saying it can't be canon by any means. It not being of his invention and the existence of inconsistencies do not rule out Toriyama's endorsement, they're not mutually exclusive. Now, nothing necessarily suggests Toriyama's endorsement, on the other end of it, but the point stands that asserting certainty in either direction is absurd.

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