"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:15 am

I enjoyed this chapter. Freeza screwing Frost over was fun.

Realistically speaking, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, and Roshi are definitely the weak links of the team. They're humans, probably not even close to a Super Saiyan 1 level of power. So, the fact they'd be taken out instantly makes sense.
Plus, we're seeing just a few pieces of what's going on in the fight right now, so in the next chapter, we can see what's going on elsewhere. This avoids the problem the anime has of doing events in sequence, but completely destroying the concept of the 48-minute time limit.

Nice to see a chapter so heavily focused on side-characters; Piccolo, Gohan, Frost, and Freeza were the main characters of this chapter, with basically everyone else who was in it just having small roles. That was nice; does a lot to alleviate The Goku And Vegeta Show problem.

Lots of action in this one, all rather creatively done. This is what a battle royale should be; it's completely mental, loads of fights are going on and intermingling, people who make mistakes like jumping too near the edge get instantly knocked off, etc. It's very nicely-done. And, as much as I still think Freeza's presence is dumb(Should've been Boo), he was pretty fun in this chapter.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by obiwan23s » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:47 am

Good chapter. I really like that the matchups and eliminations are happening differently than the anime. I expect it to start matching up with the anime more once Ultra Instinct Omen appears but there are a lot of power scaling issues to fix in the TOP story so hopefully Goku and Vegeta won't need to rack up as many eliminations as they do in the anime.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:12 am

Tien and Kuririn had a bigger role than they did in the anime. They actually helped take out an entire universe. They were used for Freeza's purposes. :o

Greta plot from Toyotaro there.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:20 am

Thoroughly loved this chapter. Frieza and Frost did some work! Good to see it be the side characters of U7 vs U9, though without prior interactions the battle didn't have as much weight as the anime did. Though it was cool to see the likes of Gohan and Piccolo battle the Trio de Danger

Definitely looking forward to how the rest of the fights will be handled, especially once we get into the thick of things where it became much more U7 vs Everyone

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:46 am

I like how the manga just feels more natural. What characters do make sense, and where their power stands as well.
For example Goku goes right for U11 trying to fight Jiren (it takes a majority of U11 to hold him back, not one mook form U4), and Frieza going right to Frost using him as fast as possible to eliminate others and saving his energy only attacking people who are at a disadvantage. And Goku/Vegeta not spamming Blue, and Frieza not spamming Gold is good as well. Even mystic Gohan was hinted but not used.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:29 am

Dragono wrote:
HeroR wrote:I don’t think Tien and Krillin going out so fast covey ‘no one is safe’ since they were the weakest characters and expected to go early. If Vegeta, Gohan, Goku, and 17 got benched within the first second you would have a point. All this really does is make not bringing Goten and Trunks stupid.
Krillin and tien went out because toriyama wanted them to so whats to say that Goten and Trunks wouldn't be the same.
It still would be a smarter choice since Goten and Trunks are among the strongest characters in the series while Tien and Krillin has no real justification except the anime saying they're experience. All we got from the manga on Goten and Trunks is 'no kids'.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:35 am

I think Toyotaro has handled this so much better than Toei, and he’s doing a great job at showing us a battle royale. Even the rules were displayed, with two of the trio de dangers being eliminated by jumping at Gohan when near the edge. I’m genuinely loving this right now, I even don’t mind things like Dr.Rota being knocked out before we could see what he was capable of. I know it might sound alien to some, but this is a battle royale, and we won’t see what everybody can do, even though unique powers would be cool to see it made for a gag moment that displays how awkward a battle royale is. Also, Freeza getting rid of Ten and Krillin to use Frost was genius. By using Frost like that he saved Piccolo a lot of stamina, as it seemed Piccolo was struggling with the big guy, then we find out the Fish guy was stronger than Piccolo as he made Frost struggle. So by doing this he’s saved Piccolo, and Gohans stamina (Gohan would’ve saved Piccolo, and probably would’ve had to transform). Then to top it off he actually makes use of the teamwork element to save Gohan from having to transform, and reminds Piccolo not to let his resolve wane. Of course there’s issues, but I’m enjoying this a lot right now.

Right, the real issue here is the tournament. Toriyama shouldn’t have give us a battle royale tournament as the first way to display all the universes. I can’t call this a weakness of Toyo, as he’s handling the battle royale super well, but this is Toriyamas mess really. It made Toeis ToP a mess (they also dragged out the fights, but I won’t go into that) because they wanted to give us backstory and character moments which took up way too much time for the setting, but without it we wouldn’t feel for the universes, kinda what Toyo is gonna suffer with now. Toei didn’t do a great job at making us feel for the universes, as the only ones I cared about going were Uni 2 and 6, but still they tried with what they had. Toyo is gonna have to go a different route and display a sense of urgency from fighters, and maybe have lines when they’re fighting, or something like when Gohan found Obuni’s necklace. He needs to remind us what the other universes are fighting for, and instead of going for backstory, play on the audiences heart strings by making them relatable. Drive home the fact that they have loved ones, and that some people would do anything to save them, have somebody break down in the stands, or on the battlefield as they realise they’re just outclassed, maybe even a suicide attack from a weak character against a power house à la Chiaotzu vs Nappa.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Raphael_Z » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:52 am

HeroR wrote:
Dragono wrote:
HeroR wrote:I don’t think Tien and Krillin going out so fast covey ‘no one is safe’ since they were the weakest characters and expected to go early. If Vegeta, Gohan, Goku, and 17 got benched within the first second you would have a point. All this really does is make not bringing Goten and Trunks stupid.
Krillin and tien went out because toriyama wanted them to so whats to say that Goten and Trunks wouldn't be the same.
It still would be a smarter choice since Goten and Trunks are among the strongest characters in the series while Tien and Krillin has no real justification except the anime saying they're experience. All we got from the manga on Goten and Trunks is 'no kids'.
What I think is that Toriyama REALLY wanted to use Roshi in the TOP for narrative purposes.

If he were to include Goten and Trunks then Roshi AND either Krilin or Tien would be out (and then fans would rage about why their favorite Earthling didn't make the cut). Other option would be making it a 12 person tournament but that would require designing 2 more fodder character for each universe.

Let's face it: Tien and Krilin are irrelevant power wise AND narrative wise.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:07 am

Raphael_Z wrote:
What I think is that Toriyama REALLY wanted to use Roshi in the TOP for narrative purposes.

If he were to include Goten and Trunks then Roshi AND either Krilin or Tien would be out (and then fans would rage about why their favorite Earthling didn't make the cut). Other option would be making it a 12 person tournament but that would require designing 2 more fodder character for each universe.

Let's face it: Tien and Krilin are irrelevant power wise AND narrative wise.
Here's the thing, wanting to used something because of author appeal is one thing. But you need an in-story reason as for why certain things happened, otherwise it just isn't good writing. Tien and Krillin could have done something, even if it wasn't KOing anyone, like given back up with their specificity techniques to more powerful fighters like Krillin did with 18 in the anime or doing saves and can still go out early. Krillin went out by the third episodes of the TOP in the anime and he still did stuff. Tien lasted longer, did fewer stuff than Krillin, but he still did something. Them just showing up and not doing anything gives a 'what was the point' feeling. They don't serve as a 'oh crap' moment since they're weak and expected to go fast and they didn't do anything to prove why they were even chosen outside of 'well, Toriyama wanted them'.

This is a flawed argument. You don't need to be powerful to be useful. Bulma and Future Mai were important last arc and they were muggles.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:09 am

This is just what I wanted. Frieza is still a villain, not an anti-hero. The ways he played Frost and took out Bergamo were perfect for his character.

And the pacing is perfect.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:14 am

I expect U10 and probably even U2 to be eliminated next month. Those 2 don't reall have any interesting fighters to be shown unfortunately other than Ribrianne.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hawk9211 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:18 am

IM21 wrote:I expect U10 and probably even U2 to be eliminated next month. Those 2 don't reall have any interesting fighters to be shown unfortunately other than Ribrianne.
Ribrianne is prominently focused in promotional material.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:28 am

Hawk9211 wrote:
IM21 wrote:I expect U10 and probably even U2 to be eliminated next month. Those 2 don't reall have any interesting fighters to be shown unfortunately other than Ribrianne.
Ribrianne is prominently focused in promotional material.
I think she will get the most focus in fighting 18 just like in the anime, but it won't drag out. And after U10, U2 is the next in line. The order of eliminations will most likely be the same as in the anime so either U2 bites the dust in the next chapter or in chapter 36. I only assume that the TOP will finish in November. So from May - August everyone except U11 will be gone. And then U7 vs U11 can last for 3 chapters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:41 am

Read through some posts.

What is with people and this notion that characters "Deserve" to be "treated better"? Well, characters aren't real people. Characters exist to serve a plot, and that's it. If characters become detrimental to a plot, a good writer gets rid of them. Characters are best when they work with the plot to create the response in a reader/viewer/player the writer wants.

Krillin getting blindsided and taken out is perfect to create the battle royale feel. Tenshinhan's best move amounting to absolutely nothing was perfect to further the Frieza/Frost angle, AND it continued writing Ten like Toriyama wrote him.

I'll take this ANY DAY of the week over them being in dozens of anime episodes doing absolutely nothing before they get some one-off episode that ends with them getting eliminated anyway. That has no impact on the plot or tension. Them getting taken out swiftly does.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Olympian » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:47 am

sintzu wrote:
picc wrote:Fodder got treated like fodder. No one is disappointed when the other universes weaklings are easily thrown out.
Thank you. :clap:
This isn`t exactly intlectually honest. "Other fodder" didn`t have main/recurring character status for decades in the manga to readers who grew up with the characters. These characters have fanbases and are iconic within the franchise. You can`t compare that with thrownaway designs that will just be here to make numbers and leave.

By all means have Frost take them out but have them actually take the nobodies that populate the arena, before that. Otherwise them being there ammounts to nothing more than commercial bable.

By all means do retire them but don`t have longtime fans have any shallow hope they will do something cool and then get awarded this. People who are fans of Goku and Freezas probably won`t care but for me despite the newfound popularity of the Franchise it`s been hard to care when the characters I care the most are this disposable and treathed as shit.

And this is exactly what it is. It`s not them losing. It`s being threated as shit. Somehow Roshi isn`t, despite having admitted he was left behind twice in the Manga...but go figure. I guess doing similar for the others is a big deal.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Olympian » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:54 am

TKA wrote:Read through some posts.

What is with people and this notion that characters "Deserve" to be "treated better"? Well, characters aren't real people. Characters exist to serve a plot, and that's it. If characters become detrimental to a plot, a good writer gets rid of them. Characters are best when they work with the plot to create the response in a reader/viewer/player the writer wants.

Krillin getting blindsided and taken out is perfect to create the battle royale feel. Tenshinhan's best move amounting to absolutely nothing was perfect to further the Frieza/Frost angle, AND it continued writing Ten like Toriyama wrote him.

I'll take this ANY DAY of the week over them being in dozens of anime episodes doing absolutely nothing before they get some one-off episode that ends with them getting eliminated anyway. That has no impact on the plot or tension. Them getting taken out swiftly does.
I respect your opinion and it`s certainly a valid point but the moment fanbases are in and you threat characters who always did something as nothing, then there is equally nothing to gain from whoever is a fan of them because you`re totally on the point: they were just used to further tension to other characters.
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Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:03 am

Olympian wrote:I respect your opinion and it`s certainly a valid point but the moment fanbases are in and you threat characters who always did something as nothing, then there is equally nothing to gain from whoever is a fan of them because you`re totally on the point: they were just used to further tension to other characters.
If this had happened to Goku, or Vegeta or Piccolo, then there is cause for outcry. By the Buu arc, Tenshinhan and Krillin were useless characters there for comedic effect more than anything. Toyotaro managed to get use out of them, eve if it isn't "ZOMG THEY DID SOMETHING SO COOL!"

Someone mentioned that Krillin got treated worse than Ten, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Toyotaro made it clear that Krillin got blindsided, which protects Krillin's character's integrity. Tenshinhan, on the other hand, knew Frost was there, knew the power differential between them, but still attacked him head on, which is perfectly in-keeping with the character that did the same to Nappa, Cell and Buu (and the outcome was the same as the latter 3 cases).

Look, the truth is people aren't complaining about characters not being treated well (i.e. being portrayed consistently, getting character development etc). They're complaining about them not doing "ZOMG cool" stuff. Wasting time on irrelevant things like that is fine for a 200-episode anime, but in print I expect my time to not be wasted on such dilatory drivel.

It is important to note that sometimes going out with a whimper is a more emphatic, resonant statement than going out with a bang.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Olympian » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:30 am

TKA wrote:
Olympian wrote:I respect your opinion and it`s certainly a valid point but the moment fanbases are in and you threat characters who always did something as nothing, then there is equally nothing to gain from whoever is a fan of them because you`re totally on the point: they were just used to further tension to other characters.
If this had happened to Goku, or Vegeta or Piccolo, then there is cause for outcry. By the Buu arc, Tenshinhan and Krillin were useless characters there for comedic effect more than anything. Toyotaro managed to get use out of them, eve if it isn't "ZOMG THEY DID SOMETHING SO COOL!"

Someone mentioned that Krillin got treated worse than Ten, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Toyotaro made it clear that Krillin got blindsided, which protects Krillin's character's integrity. Tenshinhan, on the other hand, knew Frost was there, knew the power differential between them, but still attacked him head on, which is perfectly in-keeping with the character that did the same to Nappa, Cell and Buu (and the outcome was the same as the latter 3 cases).

Look, the truth is people aren't complaining about characters not being treated well (i.e. being portrayed consistently, getting character development etc). They're complaining about them not doing "ZOMG cool" stuff. Wasting time on irrelevant things like that is fine for a 200-episode anime, but in print I expect my time to not be wasted on such dilatory drivel.

It is important to note that sometimes going out with a whimper is a more emphatic, resonant statement than going out with a bang.
Not sure I buy it wholly. Tenshinhan was easily taken out by Buu, sure, but that was after he saved Goku and Gohan`s life. It`s not about them just doing something cool is about them being consistant with the characters and what they can bring. You mention Piccolo and yet he was the one benched in the entirety of the Buu arc. He did nothing but babysit the kids.

Most fanbases of the popular Dragon Ball characters, of which the main humans are accounted for only hope for better consistancy in overall threatment. Piccolo and Tenshinhan in the Buu arc is an example. Roshi is another in the anime.

If they make a TOP and bring back fan favorites from retirement, readers will expect them to do something worthwhile. Not only for the general plot but for themselves, so why the tremendous lack of chance with these popular characters? You will say it doesn`t have to do anything because they don`t matter and yet there it is, they got fanbases. It`s not about being double crossed it`s about them being nothing more than stage card props in the current franchise.

But I`m not here to spoil the fun of anybody or try to rationale powalevels! out of anyone, you all know my opinion on that regard. It`s been pretty clear that there is no place for fans of the characters in the current Franchise and that`s alright, there are others floating around.
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Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jplaya2023 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:40 am

Honestly if the manga was going to make krilian and tien canon fodder like this, i would've liked to seen boo and cell or dabura take thier places as they had no business being in this tournament in the first place.

Hell even goten and trunks would've been better suited. It seems they were wasted in the manga

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Nero<>Akira » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:02 am

Toyotaro pretty much did nothing with these characters considering AT wanted them in the tournament. Yes they are fodder compared to others, but it doesn't matter considering Mai did more in both the anime and manga versions of the FT arc than both Krillin and Tien in the manga (arguably Tien in the anime too) of this arc. In the anime, Krillin got great characterization and development and took out 2 fighters and helped 18. Tien helped take out the sniper fighter and we also got to see what he did on his personal time with creating a Dojo. This all gives them purpose in actually being in this arc and goes in line with the comments made with AT wanting them in the tournament. Toyotaro doesn't do that. You can say "oh but they were part of Freeza's plan". Yeah sure. But what did they do? What did they add to the narrative or to themselves? Nothing. They were mere placeholders and Toyotaro's way of just adhering to the outline for no reason. If Toyotaro wasn't going to do anything with these characters individually, he should have just wrote it out differently or said "AT, i'm going to use Boo." Christ, with how fast he is writing this arc, he really couldn't squeeze a knock out or two for them lol?
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