"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:03 am

picc wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:No I really didn't.

So wait, should U9 have been utterly grateful towards to Goku? Shit, are you now going to tell me that Goku instigated the tournament because he wanted to save everyone?

A shit sandwich is still a shit sandwich, no matter how you try and sugarcoat it.

It also doesn't help at all that Goku was kinda an ass about it.
They should be grateful at best. At worst, they should be ambivalent. What they absolutely should not be, is angry.

Which is whats so weird about the antagonism toward Goku in this thread/on this board, in respect to the tournament. At the very worst, Goku is an unwitting potential benefactor of every universe involved. He doesn't need to be revered as a hero, but he sure as fuck didn't make everyone's chances WORSE.

The argument about the future proving the tournament wasn't a factor gives far, far too much credit to the creators as well. Just like the silly power level discussions using A-B-C logic that Toei has been proven to not give a damn about, the universes existing in the future is neither here nor there as far as they are concerned.

They are simply creating stories, and from watching Super we should all be well aware they are not meticulously weaving these stories together in an attempt to be consistent and precise. As far as the current production is concerned, the universes are getting erased.
If we were talking soley about the manga, despite the fact that I strongly disagree that anyone would be grateful towards Goku (but hey if the government decides to conscript the people into a battle royale death-match, at least they know who to call) the manga at least treats it like an "aw shucks" moment.

The anime, for whatever reason, not only decides to focus on how much Goku pushes for the tournament out of sheer boredom, going so far as to risk erasure by beerus, but any time he's called out on it, he gives a shrug and a "So I'm a villain, eh" and announces to the other universes that he couldn't give a shit about what they thought of him..

Was I supposed to find that endearing? Was I supposed to go "oh gee, Goku is so rad. He doesn't care about anyone or anything at all." If the intention was to align our sympathies with Goku, boy did the anime fail in that regard.

So that might explain why people weren't too happy with how Goku was being written for this arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:39 am

picc wrote:My original point wasn't even about U9 being sympathetic or not. It was that complaining that the manga depiction of their erasure wasn't emotional enough is unfair, based on that animated productions can manipulate emotions far better than drawn productions can.

The dramatically sad music and long reaction shots of the anime can't be duplicated in pencil, so I find that criticism extremely unfair regardless of how one feels about Universe 9.
I’ve said this before, but the reason why the manga can’t give us the emotional weight of the anime (and the only one that truly pulled on my heartstrings was Uni 6 in the anime) is because it’s not dragging out the tournament to give us those moments. The issue here is Toriyama choosing to introduce us to all the universes in the ToP. The manga will probably show us the flaws with his choice as it’s progressing as a battle royale more or less should. The manga can have moments which can make us empathise with the fighters, finding Obunis necklace, people breaking down, and maybe a suicide attack. What what it should not do is waste time on these universes in a battle royale setting when Toriyama should have done something with them before to make this an arc that would have the emotional backbone to make it worthwhile. We know a little about Uni 6 and 9, but still no where near enough for it to have a harrowing effect.

I’m just really not happy with this arc being set now, it could have been so much more if it was saved for a later date! And now both the manga and anime are gonna show/showing it’s flaws in two different ways. Even the anime with the time it has spent hasn’t been able to make me feel emotionally invested with the universes, but to be fair to them it’s understandable why they haven’t managed it, the setting is just totally wrong for it. Said it before and I’m saying it again, this arc would’ve been great once that investment with the universes had been given to us in a natural manner and not some last ditch attempt.

Sorry, I went off on one there. :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:55 am

kemuri07 wrote: The anime, for whatever reason, not only decides to focus on how much Goku pushes for the tournament out of sheer boredom, going so far as to risk erasure by beerus, but any time he's called out on it, he gives a shrug and a "So I'm a villain, eh" and announces to the other universes that he couldn't give a shit about what they thought of him.
... so what?

Yes, Goku pushed for the tourney. And? He didn't know it would result in erasures, so it doesn't make him a villain. On the other hand, he didn't know it would give each universe a chance to compete for survival, so it also doesn't make him a hero.

It doesn't make him anything except an unwitting, potential benefactor of the surviving universe. Not really worthy of praise, and not worthy of ire either. But considering their situation pre-Goku was "will be erased", and their situation post-Goku was "will probably be erased", if one insists on having feelings about it then it should probably be the former.
Was I supposed to find that endearing? Was I supposed to go "oh gee, Goku is so rad. He doesn't care about anyone or anything at all." If the intention was to align our sympathies with Goku, boy did the anime fail in that regard.
Who said you were supposed to sympathize with Goku or be endeared to him? The point was that he isn't the catalyst for universes being erased, contrary to what their denizens (and you) seem to believe, so any ire resulting from that perception is misplaced. I don't give a flying shit if Goku gives you a warm fuzzy feeling or not.

Your apparent blood vendetta over him laughing off a villain label he hadn't actually done anything to earn is weird, but its your business.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:00 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
picc wrote:My original point wasn't even about U9 being sympathetic or not. It was that complaining that the manga depiction of their erasure wasn't emotional enough is unfair, based on that animated productions can manipulate emotions far better than drawn productions can.

The dramatically sad music and long reaction shots of the anime can't be duplicated in pencil, so I find that criticism extremely unfair regardless of how one feels about Universe 9.
I’ve said this before, but the reason why the manga can’t give us the emotional weight of the anime (and the only one that truly pulled on my heartstrings was Uni 6 in the anime) is because it’s not dragging out the tournament to give us those moments. The issue here is Toriyama choosing to introduce us to all the universes in the ToP. The manga will probably show us the flaws with his choice as it’s progressing as a battle royale more or less should. The manga can have moments which can make us empathise with the fighters, finding Obunis necklace, people breaking down, and maybe a suicide attack. What what it should not do is waste time on these universes in a battle royale setting when Toriyama should have done something with them before to make this an arc that would have the emotional backbone to make it worthwhile. We know a little about Uni 6 and 9, but still no where near enough for it to have a harrowing effect.

I’m just really not happy with this arc being set now, it could have been so much more if it was saved for a later date! And now both the manga and anime are gonna show/showing it’s flaws in two different ways. Even the anime with the time it has spent hasn’t been able to make me feel emotionally invested with the universes, but to be fair to them it’s understandable why they haven’t managed it, the setting is just totally wrong for it. Said it before and I’m saying it again, this arc would’ve been great once that investment with the universes had been given to us in a natural manner and not some last ditch attempt.

Sorry, I went off on one there. :lol:
Thats partially true, but we basically got half an episode of Obuni and his erasure (with U10) still struck people hard. I don't know if pre-tourney intros are necessary to make people sympathetic to characters -- it seems all they need is a decent background story and/or strength of character.

I can't speak for everyone, but I personally wasn't hit hard by U6's erasure because I'm assuming they will be brought back at some point.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:37 am

picc wrote:
kemuri07 wrote: The anime, for whatever reason, not only decides to focus on how much Goku pushes for the tournament out of sheer boredom, going so far as to risk erasure by beerus, but any time he's called out on it, he gives a shrug and a "So I'm a villain, eh" and announces to the other universes that he couldn't give a shit about what they thought of him.
... so what?

Yes, Goku pushed for the tourney. And? He didn't know it would result in erasures, so it doesn't make him a villain. On the other hand, he didn't know it would give each universe a chance to compete for survival, so it also doesn't make him a hero.

It doesn't make him anything except an unwitting, potential benefactor of the surviving universe. Not really worthy of praise, and not worthy of ire either. But considering their situation pre-Goku was "will be erased", and their situation post-Goku was "will probably be erased", if one insists on having feelings about it then it should probably be the former.
Was I supposed to find that endearing? Was I supposed to go "oh gee, Goku is so rad. He doesn't care about anyone or anything at all." If the intention was to align our sympathies with Goku, boy did the anime fail in that regard.
Who said you were supposed to sympathize with Goku or be endeared to him? The point was that he isn't the catalyst for universes being erased, contrary to what their denizens (and you) seem to believe, so any ire resulting from that perception is misplaced. I don't give a flying shit if Goku gives you a warm fuzzy feeling or not.

Your apparent blood vendetta over him laughing off a villain label he hadn't actually done anything to earn is weird, but its your business.
I’m confused and thought we covered this. Goku through various means is the reason the universes are getting erased at this very moment. We know for a fact that the universe exist in the future and thus no immediate erasure took place.

We do not know WHEN Zeno would have erased the universes which could equally be argued to be right aft r the events of he Future Trunks arc or a billion years into the future. The fact is Goku played a part in the current circumstances coming to fruition at this point in time.

It’s the equivalent of saying it’s ok if someone died in a car crash you may have caused because they were eventually going to die at some point in the future anyway. It’s an absurd and sociopathic way of looking at things.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:22 am

Olympian wrote:Kuririn and Roshi`s mini character arcs were certainly well done and the way both got out had something to do with their arcs. That`s the sort of meaningful concent fanbases expect from returning favorites.
Again, the manga didn't promise any of these characters would be big players. In fact, it made it clear that Tenshinhan, Roshi and Krillin are only there because they need 10 people. The anime made a big deal out of them being on the team, and then relegated them to episodes and episodes of being offscreen. Then, when they did finally get their chance to shine in an episode, it ends with them being eliminated. That's... not my kinda thing. The manga dealt with their involvement in a surprising, and efficient way. That's more impactful than them eliminating, uh, Cheese-man, or whatever the name of the useless characters they eliminated in the anime are.

Further, I don't agree with the notion that their characters benefitted from anything the anime did. Roshi's entire arc in the first half of the manga was about letting go and passing the baton on to his students, who have surpassed him. The anime having him show up and suddenly being more capable than Tenshinhan and Krillin was some grade A, regressive bollsheet.

Krilling, likewise, did not benefit from the anime. Krillin, during the Namek and Android arcs, came to understand that he ain't worth dirt compared to the heavy hitters he associates with, so he contributes to the "team" in several other ways. This isn't something the Super anime came up with. It just re-did something the manga had already done 25 years ago and treating it like it's some new development.

The Super manga, rightfully, eschews all that nonsense and gets right down to what matters. This notion that it's doing a disservice is, to be frank, ridiculous. It treats the characters the same as Toriyama treated them. Fanfiction is what has the humans being combat-useful.
picc wrote: animated productions can manipulate emotions far better than drawn productions can.
Agreed.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Whatever » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:43 am

TKA wrote:
Again, the manga didn't promise any of these characters would be big players. In fact, it made it clear that Tenshinhan, Roshi and Krillin are only there because they need 10 people. The anime made a big deal out of them being on the team, and then relegated them to episodes and episodes of being offscreen. Then, when they did finally get their chance to shine in an episode, it ends with them being eliminated. That's... not my kinda thing. The manga dealt with their involvement in a surprising, and efficient way. That's more impactful than them eliminating, uh, Cheese-man, or whatever the name of the useless characters they eliminated in the anime are
Ah them being a waste of space is actually more usefull than them contributing even a little,huh thats a new meaning for impactful.
Further, I don't agree with the notion that their characters benefitted from anything the anime did. Roshi's entire arc in the first half of the manga was about letting go and passing the baton on to his students, who have surpassed him. The anime having him show up and suddenly being more capable than Tenshinhan and Krillin was some grade A, regressive bollsheet.
The anime if anything made Roshi's arc come full circle by being inspired by the same students he taught to never be content with their current limit since they are always stonger people out there.
Also if Roshi eliminate even 1 person in the manga he willl still be more capable than them,heck even from the little bout the humans had with Frost,Roshi still ended up looking the better of the 3.
The Super manga, rightfully, eschews all that nonsense and gets right down to what matters. This notion that it's doing a disservice is, to be frank, ridiculous. It treats the characters the same as Toriyama treated them. Fanfiction is what has the humans being combat-useful.
Wait,hyping things up only to contribute to less things that they were hyped to is a thing Toriyama did with a lot of characters and events,yet you find it wrong that the anime did it(so do i btw),yet you found the manga doing something else the same way Toriyama did it ok?

Toyotaro can make them usefull even without them eliminating anyone,saying them doing nothing is not doing them disservice is frankly just an excuse to justify bad writing,its up to the Toyotaro to make them usefull since they are part of the cast,if he does not then the fault is all on him,just like for every writer of every series not using the cast well.

Speaking of what Toriyama did,Toriyama never skipped much of anything,we still got GokuvsTien,PiccolovsKrillin and YamchavsKami as fully fleshed out battles in the 23rd Budokai,its not like the winner of those 3 batttles 1 shotted the opponent so we could get to Goku vs PiccoloJr.
Also its not like Toyotaro is gonna skip all the 'nonsense' about Vegeta for example despite that we already know it will come down Freeza/17/Goku vs Jiren.

Even then in this chapter we stil got the 'nonsense' you are talking about,we saw a fodder 1 shotting fodder only for Freeza to 1 shot the fodder and it certainly would not hinder the manga for example to have given a few of those fodder eliminations to Tien and Krillin.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:35 pm

The earthlings can't be trained up or given the most efficient techniques that would make them competitive again for whatever reason, the author doesn't seem or want to recall that they know techniques which operate outside the perimeters of strength, and yet he doesn't seem willing to retain their general nonexistence from previous arcs arcs via retirement. What is it that he wants? The whole "seat warmer" shtick wouldn't have been necessary in the first place if Toriyama had placed a stricter limit on the number of participants, reducing them to maybe 5-6 instead of 10. Many of the other participants are getting eliminated already with nothing shown of them anyway. If you don't have anything that's even minutely substantial in mind for the earthlings then keep them in retirement.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:53 pm

Whatever wrote:
TKA wrote:
Again, the manga didn't promise any of these characters would be big players. In fact, it made it clear that Tenshinhan, Roshi and Krillin are only there because they need 10 people. The anime made a big deal out of them being on the team, and then relegated them to episodes and episodes of being offscreen. Then, when they did finally get their chance to shine in an episode, it ends with them being eliminated. That's... not my kinda thing. The manga dealt with their involvement in a surprising, and efficient way. That's more impactful than them eliminating, uh, Cheese-man, or whatever the name of the useless characters they eliminated in the anime are
Ah them being a waste of space is actually more usefull than them contributing even a little,huh thats a new meaning for impactful.
Further, I don't agree with the notion that their characters benefitted from anything the anime did. Roshi's entire arc in the first half of the manga was about letting go and passing the baton on to his students, who have surpassed him. The anime having him show up and suddenly being more capable than Tenshinhan and Krillin was some grade A, regressive bollsheet.
The anime if anything made Roshi's arc come full circle by being inspired by the same students he taught to never be content with their current limit since they are always stonger people out there.
Also if Roshi eliminate even 1 person in the manga he willl still be more capable than them,heck even from the little bout the humans had with Frost,Roshi still ended up looking the better of the 3.
The Super manga, rightfully, eschews all that nonsense and gets right down to what matters. This notion that it's doing a disservice is, to be frank, ridiculous. It treats the characters the same as Toriyama treated them. Fanfiction is what has the humans being combat-useful.
Wait,hyping things up only to contribute to less things that they were hyped to is a thing Toriyama did with a lot of characters and events,yet you find it wrong that the anime did it(so do i btw),yet you found the manga doing something else the same way Toriyama did it ok?

Toyotaro can make them usefull even without them eliminating anyone,saying them doing nothing is not doing them disservice is frankly just an excuse to justify bad writing,its up to the Toyotaro to make them usefull since they are part of the cast,if he does not then the fault is all on him,just like for every writer of every series not using the cast well.

Speaking of what Toriyama did,Toriyama never skipped much of anything,we still got GokuvsTien,PiccolovsKrillin and YamchavsKami as fully fleshed out battles in the 23rd Budokai,its not like the winner of those 3 batttles 1 shotted the opponent so we could get to Goku vs PiccoloJr.
Also its not like Toyotaro is gonna skip all the 'nonsense' about Vegeta for example despite that we already know it will come down Freeza/17/Goku vs Jiren.

Even then in this chapter we stil got the 'nonsense' you are talking about,we saw a fodder 1 shotting fodder only for Freeza to 1 shot the fodder and it certainly would not hinder the manga for example to have given a few of those fodder eliminations to Tien and Krillin.
Maybe we have different ideas of coming full circle.

We’re looking at character who were woefully outclassed since the Saiyan arc, who have been out of commission for literal decades both in and out of universe, and see them suddenly pop in, in under 48 hours and perform.

The anime made it feel like weeks, even months before the fight. The manga has them spend the bulk of their time discussing their options, scrambling for fighters, and resting before their big battle.

You have no idea how pissed off I was at the idea of krillin buying workout equipment or the lack of usage of the RoSaT. Roshi was the worst with his secret training shenanigans. Krillin, 18, and Marron all live with him and the island is super tiny...

But whatever I suspend all that nonsense and allow it as justification for whatever fan service they want to give. However in now way are we really going to sit up here and act as if their setup prior to the tournament makes any sense at all. I certainly understand the issue people had with krillin but remember the last time he fought? He didn’t do so hot and the manga isn’t giving him a sudden change of heart in 48 hours.

And speaking of Toriyama at least judging by the fact that they both tend to follow the outline it’s a good chance Toriyama had ZERO intentions for these characters at all. Which is why it’s so ironic to talk about what Toriyama-sensei would do when he’s the one writing the outlines. It’s pretty obvious he had nothing planned for krillin or Tien beyond assisting in some way.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by picc » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:54 pm

TheMikado wrote:
picc wrote:
kemuri07 wrote: The anime, for whatever reason, not only decides to focus on how much Goku pushes for the tournament out of sheer boredom, going so far as to risk erasure by beerus, but any time he's called out on it, he gives a shrug and a "So I'm a villain, eh" and announces to the other universes that he couldn't give a shit about what they thought of him.
... so what?

Yes, Goku pushed for the tourney. And? He didn't know it would result in erasures, so it doesn't make him a villain. On the other hand, he didn't know it would give each universe a chance to compete for survival, so it also doesn't make him a hero.

It doesn't make him anything except an unwitting, potential benefactor of the surviving universe. Not really worthy of praise, and not worthy of ire either. But considering their situation pre-Goku was "will be erased", and their situation post-Goku was "will probably be erased", if one insists on having feelings about it then it should probably be the former.
Was I supposed to find that endearing? Was I supposed to go "oh gee, Goku is so rad. He doesn't care about anyone or anything at all." If the intention was to align our sympathies with Goku, boy did the anime fail in that regard.
Who said you were supposed to sympathize with Goku or be endeared to him? The point was that he isn't the catalyst for universes being erased, contrary to what their denizens (and you) seem to believe, so any ire resulting from that perception is misplaced. I don't give a flying shit if Goku gives you a warm fuzzy feeling or not.

Your apparent blood vendetta over him laughing off a villain label he hadn't actually done anything to earn is weird, but its your business.
I’m confused and thought we covered this. Goku through various means is the reason the universes are getting erased at this very moment. We know for a fact that the universe exist in the future and thus no immediate erasure took place.

We do not know WHEN Zeno would have erased the universes which could equally be argued to be right aft r the events of he Future Trunks arc or a billion years into the future. The fact is Goku played a part in the current circumstances coming to fruition at this point in time.

It’s the equivalent of saying it’s ok if someone died in a car crash you may have caused because they were eventually going to die at some point in the future anyway. It’s an absurd and sociopathic way of looking at things.
I don't believe for a second that Toei/Toriyama is applying this kind of meta to the scenario. It would neutralize the point of Zeno making the statement in the first place. And its actually kind of strange people would give the creators that much credit when they've already made stories/statements that don't make sense when considering future happenings, and require incredible retroactive logic-bending to rationalize.

And if U7 wins the tournament, doesn't that erase your point anyway?

But I digress. Its abundantly clear they write in the moment (for better or worse), so taking the scenario at face value being "absurd and sociopathic" is laughable. Far more absurd is assuming when the creators have Zenos declare they want to destroy the universes, they really means billions of years from now. Its not just absurd, its flat out disingenuous.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:24 pm

Lionel wrote:The earthlings can't be trained up or given the most efficient techniques that would make them competitive again for whatever reason, the author doesn't seem or want to recall that they know techniques which operate outside the perimeters of strength, and yet he doesn't seem willing to retain their general nonexistence from previous arcs arcs via retirement. What is it that he wants? The whole "seat warmer" shtick wouldn't have been necessary in the first place if Toriyama had placed a stricter limit on the number of participants, reducing them to maybe 5-6 instead of 10. Many of the other participants are getting eliminated already with nothing shown of them anyway. If you don't have anything that's even minutely substantial in mind for the earthlings then keep them in retirement.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. What's the point of bringing these fan favorites back if you are not going to do anything with them?

Might as well have brought Goten, Trunks, and Buu.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Whatever » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:20 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Maybe we have different ideas of coming full circle.

We’re looking at character who were woefully outclassed since the Saiyan arc, who have been out of commission for literal decades both in and out of universe, and see them suddenly pop in, in under 48 hours and perform.
I said full circle in regards to Roshi's character arc.
What i am saying is that if you are bothering to include them,then at the least make it a little worthwhile,there are many characters that Toriyama did not give any draft for,you can make them however strong you are and thanks to the setting of a battle royale like this,you can match them with foes close to their level.
You have no idea how pissed off I was at the idea of krillin buying workout equipment or the lack of usage of the RoSaT. Roshi was the worst with his secret training shenanigans. Krillin, 18, and Marron all live with him and the island is super tiny...
That was stupid but thats the point i am making it,we don't need him fighting ssjb Goku to make him usefull,just let him with people on his level and then throw him out.
Heck in the anime Krillin contributed by saving 18 which in turn saved 17 which you know how much he did.
And speaking of Toriyama at least judging by the fact that they both tend to follow the outline it’s a good chance Toriyama had ZERO intentions for these characters at all. Which is why it’s so ironic to talk about what Toriyama-sensei would do when he’s the one writing the outlines. It’s pretty obvious he had nothing planned for krillin or Tien beyond assisting in some way.
Considering how different their uses were between the manga and anime,i think its safe to say that just like most other Top character,Toriyama made them blank slates,so Tototaro/Toei could make use of them however they wanted(as long as they don't contradict and interfere the outlines he had for other characters).
Would it be too much for Tien and Krillin to knock some of the U9 members Frost knocked out?
Correct if i am wrong but i don't think i am saying anything unreasonable,just something anything to make sure they were not a waste of space(and thats coming from someone who does not care about Tien and Krillin as characters).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:19 pm

Everyone on this thread keeps referencing the humans as if Roshi isn't still in. Maybe instead of focusing on all 3 humans individually, Toyo is just going to give highlight to the best human.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:08 am

Bergamo wrote:Everyone on this thread keeps referencing the humans as if Roshi isn't still in. Maybe instead of focusing on all 3 humans individually, Toyo is just going to give highlight to the best human.
I don't think he'll cut away to Yamcha at this point.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Olympian » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:35 am

TKA wrote:
Again, the manga didn't promise any of these characters would be big players. In fact, it made it clear that Tenshinhan, Roshi and Krillin are only there because they need 10 people. The anime made a big deal out of them being on the team, and then relegated them to episodes and episodes of being offscreen. Then, when they did finally get their chance to shine in an episode, it ends with them being eliminated. That's... not my kinda thing. The manga dealt with their involvement in a surprising, and efficient way. That's more impactful than them eliminating, uh, Cheese-man, or whatever the name of the useless characters they eliminated in the anime are.

Further, I don't agree with the notion that their characters benefitted from anything the anime did. Roshi's entire arc in the first half of the manga was about letting go and passing the baton on to his students, who have surpassed him. The anime having him show up and suddenly being more capable than Tenshinhan and Krillin was some grade A, regressive bollsheet.

Krilling, likewise, did not benefit from the anime. Krillin, during the Namek and Android arcs, came to understand that he ain't worth dirt compared to the heavy hitters he associates with, so he contributes to the "team" in several other ways. This isn't something the Super anime came up with. It just re-did something the manga had already done 25 years ago and treating it like it's some new development.

The Super manga, rightfully, eschews all that nonsense and gets right down to what matters. This notion that it's doing a disservice is, to be frank, ridiculous. It treats the characters the same as Toriyama treated them. Fanfiction is what has the humans being combat-useful
Either case suffers from lacking outstanding execution but the anime to me had a better idea in going at it and where it lacked it tied to the general issues of the whole show and direction. Whether Roshi ends up lasting longer than Tenshinhan or not is not what I aim to discuss at, is the willingness to use characters in a more realized manner in terms of what they can bring, both for the grand plot and themselves - i.e their fanbases. They all had mini character arcs going on that tied to moments in the TOP. Kuririn for example is basically eliminated because of #18 and that bond is later explored fully when she faces the TriodeDangers.

Was it universally well made? No, but I don`t believe in ideally not going for something better than just "getting to the point". You are right in pointing out the Manga never promotes the return of old favorites like the show did but they are nonetheless.
TKA wrote:The Super manga, rightfully, eschews all that nonsense and gets right down to what matters. This notion that it's doing a disservice is, to be frank, ridiculous. It treats the characters the same as Toriyama treated them. Fanfiction is what has the humans being combat-useful
I find the notion that you can`t make these humans "combat useful" unless vis a vis with fanfiction to be rather silly when Toryama was the one who always had them tag along behind Goku for 90% of his whole Manga. The one arc where the human squad does the least is the Buu arc and you still had things like Tenshinhan and Chiatzu being the only beings alive from Buu`s genocidal attack, Yamcha searching the Dragon Balls with #18, a mini Tournament setting Kuririn as the strongest active Human on the planet, Tenshinhan saving both Goku and Gohan and everybody at the end giving energy for Goku. They all contribute in small parts to the whole thing whether they were outclassed or retired.

And outclassed as they may be, they aren`t forgotten or brushed aside as the figthers they have been. The first thing Goku asks Yamcha at the Bodukai is whereas he is participating as well. That sense of bond and familiarity never goes away under Toryama, none of them feel like strangers.

Nevermind the current cheap ways that which you can progress character evolution now that doesn`t directly tie to any especific biology within the whole franchise.
Ki Breaker wrote:

Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

Coincidence? I think not

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:42 am

Olympian wrote:
TKA wrote:
Again, the manga didn't promise any of these characters would be big players. In fact, it made it clear that Tenshinhan, Roshi and Krillin are only there because they need 10 people. The anime made a big deal out of them being on the team, and then relegated them to episodes and episodes of being offscreen. Then, when they did finally get their chance to shine in an episode, it ends with them being eliminated. That's... not my kinda thing. The manga dealt with their involvement in a surprising, and efficient way. That's more impactful than them eliminating, uh, Cheese-man, or whatever the name of the useless characters they eliminated in the anime are.

Further, I don't agree with the notion that their characters benefitted from anything the anime did. Roshi's entire arc in the first half of the manga was about letting go and passing the baton on to his students, who have surpassed him. The anime having him show up and suddenly being more capable than Tenshinhan and Krillin was some grade A, regressive bollsheet.

Krilling, likewise, did not benefit from the anime. Krillin, during the Namek and Android arcs, came to understand that he ain't worth dirt compared to the heavy hitters he associates with, so he contributes to the "team" in several other ways. This isn't something the Super anime came up with. It just re-did something the manga had already done 25 years ago and treating it like it's some new development.

The Super manga, rightfully, eschews all that nonsense and gets right down to what matters. This notion that it's doing a disservice is, to be frank, ridiculous. It treats the characters the same as Toriyama treated them. Fanfiction is what has the humans being combat-useful
Either case suffers from lacking outstanding execution but the anime to me had a better idea in going at it and where it lacked it tied to the general issues of the whole show and direction. Whether Roshi ends up lasting longer than Tenshinhan or not is not what I aim to discuss at, is the willingness to use characters in a more realized manner in terms of what they can bring, both for the grand plot and themselves - i.e their fanbases. They all had mini character arcs going on that tied to moments in the TOP. Kuririn for example is basically eliminated because of #18 and that bond is later explored fully when she faces the TriodeDangers.

Was it universally well made? No, but I don`t believe in ideally not going for something better than just "getting to the point". You are right in pointing out the Manga never promotes the return of old favorites like the show did but they are nonetheless.
TKA wrote:The Super manga, rightfully, eschews all that nonsense and gets right down to what matters. This notion that it's doing a disservice is, to be frank, ridiculous. It treats the characters the same as Toriyama treated them. Fanfiction is what has the humans being combat-useful
I find the notion that you can`t make these humans "combat useful" unless vis a vis with fanfiction to be rather silly when Toryama was the one who always had them tag along behind Goku for 90% of his whole Manga. The one arc where the human squad does the least is the Buu arc and you still had things like Tenshinhan and Chiatzu being the only beings alive from Buu`s genocidal attack, Yamcha searching the Dragon Balls with #18, a mini Tournament setting Kuririn as the strongest active Human on the planet, Tenshinhan saving both Goku and Gohan and everybody at the end giving energy for Goku. They all contribute in small parts to the whole thing whether they were outclassed or retired.

And outclassed as they may be, they aren`t forgotten or brushed aside as the figthers they have been. The first thing Goku asks Yamcha at the Bodukai is whereas he is participating as well. That sense of bond and familiarity never goes away under Toryama, none of them feel like strangers.

Nevermind the current cheap ways that which you can progress character evolution now that doesn`t directly tie to any especific biology within the whole franchise.
Humans just can't be powerful or exceptionally useful without a lot of exposition that we didn't get. We would have needed at least 2 chapters of Krillin and Tien training and overcoming their limits, and I don't mean a page saying they trained off screen or showing them lifting weights. They would need to have a well thought out explanation that extends far beyond, "Hey guys, I got stronger off screen." It was far too late for this by the time last chapter arrived, and if the human's great comeback was meant to be, it would have been shown months in advance.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:13 am

I must admit that watching the final episode of the anime and then reading the previous chapters in the arc is a bit of an enlightening experience. The ending's portrayal of Jiren feels a heck of a lot more similar to his manga counterpart, and assuming that the MVP of the tournament will remain the same in both versions, I can see more instances of foreshadowing in the manga too (specifically Chapter 31). It does make me wonder how similar/different the conclusion will end up being.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:42 am

TKA wrote:
Olympian wrote:Kuririn and Roshi`s mini character arcs were certainly well done and the way both got out had something to do with their arcs. That`s the sort of meaningful concent fanbases expect from returning favorites.
Again, the manga didn't promise any of these characters would be big players. In fact, it made it clear that Tenshinhan, Roshi and Krillin are only there because they need 10 people. The anime made a big deal out of them being on the team, and then relegated them to episodes and episodes of being offscreen. Then, when they did finally get their chance to shine in an episode, it ends with them being eliminated. That's... not my kinda thing. The manga dealt with their involvement in a surprising, and efficient way. That's more impactful than them eliminating, uh, Cheese-man, or whatever the name of the useless characters they eliminated in the anime are.

Further, I don't agree with the notion that their characters benefitted from anything the anime did. Roshi's entire arc in the first half of the manga was about letting go and passing the baton on to his students, who have surpassed him. The anime having him show up and suddenly being more capable than Tenshinhan and Krillin was some grade A, regressive bollsheet.

Krilling, likewise, did not benefit from the anime. Krillin, during the Namek and Android arcs, came to understand that he ain't worth dirt compared to the heavy hitters he associates with, so he contributes to the "team" in several other ways. This isn't something the Super anime came up with. It just re-did something the manga had already done 25 years ago and treating it like it's some new development.

The Super manga, rightfully, eschews all that nonsense and gets right down to what matters. This notion that it's doing a disservice is, to be frank, ridiculous. It treats the characters the same as Toriyama treated them. Fanfiction is what has the humans being combat-useful.
picc wrote: animated productions can manipulate emotions far better than drawn productions can.
Agreed.
It doesn't matter if the manga promised they would be big players or not. No one was expecting them to do phenomenal in the tournament. But like everyone else is stating, they are fan favorites and these characters deserve to be treated with the respect that their respective audiences are giving.

And who are you to say that Roshi has to remain on the sidelines because he's passed the baton to the new generation? The whole purpose of his mini-arc in this tournament, like someone stated, is that he's become inspired by the new generation and wants to keep pushing himself to further his expertise?

Who wouldn't want to see Krillin engage with an opponent? Same with Tien and Roshi. It'd be fanservice, but fanservice isn't bad when it's done right.

You talk a lot of smack about fan fiction and fan service as if they're awful concepts. They're are many good ideas once you ignore the people who keep trying to make movie villains canon. The whole arc is similar to the concept of a fan comic known as Dragon Ball Multiverse.

We expect character interactions like krillin and Android 18 sharing their moments. I feel you're overexaggerating the argument behind giving characters what they deserve. You're so blinded by the fact that the story of Dragon should maintain reality when the whole story is in fact a fantasy. Just because the Earthlings are weak does not mean they cannot contribute somewhat.

[spoiler]I'll state again that I am contempt with Krillin and Tien's elimination. However Krillin deserved more panels instead of a surprise attack by Frost. Both their eliminations were pretty lackluster but the overall chapter makes up for it for being well-written and moving at a reasonable pace.[/spoiler]

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:52 pm

Exline wrote: Just because the Earthlings are weak does not mean they cannot contribute somewhat
It’s time to consider android 17 as a earthling, he is a human modified by a human , so he’s a human product from the earth ... .... so he’s not the strongest but he contribute the most , last man standing and the only correct wish possible
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:25 pm

Olympian wrote:their fanbases. They all had mini character arcs going on that tied to moments in the TOP. Kuririn for example is basically eliminated because of #18 and that bond is later explored fully when she faces the TriodeDangers.
Fanbases shouldn't mean shit to a writer. Dragonball is popular enough and grandfathered in enough that there is no longer any need to appeal to fanbases. The writing should come first in all things.

And if we're talking about 18, the manga has handled her better than the anime by virtue of giving her a character other than "I love Krillin" and "I love 17!" One of the best moments for the character in the manga was in the flashback to the Cell Games where she just flies off and tells 17 they won't meet again. That's the coolness the character displayed in the Android arc that got shelved by later adaptations.

And if we're talking about the development of her relationship with Krillin, the manga ALSO has that, by something as simple as 18 hating Frieza.
You are right in pointing out the Manga never promotes the return of old favorites like the show did but they are nonetheless.
If the manga never pretends they're important, and never makes a big deal about them returning (and even downplays their return by making it clear that they're just asses to fill the 10-man quota), if you are disappointed by their performance then that's entirely on you and not the manga.
I find the notion that you can`t make these humans "combat useful" unless vis a vis with fanfiction to be rather silly
I strongly urge you to reread what I said.

Anyone can come up with ways to make the humans more useful. Example:

1. They're all descended from ancient aliens.
2. They spontaneously develop god ki from prolonged exposure to Goku and Vegeta
3. Offscreen training

All of those are ways the humans can be better. There exists infinite other ways, as seen in the many bad/good/mediocre fanfics out there.

That isn't what I was discussing. My point was strictly that the characters weren't written to be combatants in Toriyama's manga, and them being combatants here in Toyotaro's manga is something NOBODY should rightfully expect.
when Toryama was the one who always had them tag along behind Goku for 90% of his whole Manga.
Yes, they tag along to comment on the sidelines and mention how weak they are. They tag along to get killed by Nappa and Saibamen. They tag along to mention how strong Frieza and Cold are. They tag along to be used as fodder for 19 and 20 to make them imposing. They tag along to the Cell games to get beat up by Cell Jrs to motivate Gohan. They're around in the Buu arc to get killed and eaten by Buu.

They're being used here exactly as they have been used previously.
The one arc where the human squad does the least is the Buu arc and you still had things like Tenshinhan and Chiatzu being the only beings alive from Buu`s genocidal attack, Yamcha searching the Dragon Balls with #18, a mini Tournament setting Kuririn as the strongest active Human on the planet, Tenshinhan saving both Goku and Gohan and everybody at the end giving energy for Goku. They all contribute in small parts to the whole thing whether they were outclassed or retired.
Let's, for a second, ignore that most of the stuff you mentioned happened offscreen, was not given any importance and only happened because the villains didn't care about them. Let's ignore ALL of that for my next point.

The humans contributed to the plot. By getting taken out by Frost, they facilitated by Frost getting eliminated as well as an entire universe. If Frost hadn't taken them out, he wouldn't have trusted Frieza enough.
And outclassed as they may be, they aren`t forgotten or brushed aside.
We reading the same series here? This is the same series where the humans' deaths were so irrelevant that Buu killed them offscreen. Come on, man. Take off the fandom glasses and start looking at the series objectively. Or don't. It's not my place to tell someone how to enjoy the franchise, but if we're going to continue this discussion you need to understand that I'll never acknowledge an argument that comes from a place of fandom, or power level-worship.

Talk to me about why the earthlings sticking around makes the arc flow better. Tell me why their presence enhances the storytelling taking place. Tell me how them getting eliminated makes the storytelling worse. If we're gonna be hung up on character-worship, then I can endlessly complain about universe 9 getting destroyed without knocking anyone out. I like Dragonball for its writing.
Exline wrote:It doesn't matter if the manga promised they would be big players or not.
What? Of course it does. If we subscribe to the logic it doesn't, then I can complain about why Puar, or Korin aren't in this tournament. Or, less fantastically, I can complain about Basil getting eliminated in such unceremonious fashion. Which would be dumb.
No one was expecting them to do phenomenal in the tournament. But like everyone else is stating, they are fan favorites
I'm a fan. Whether they're fighters and doing "Cool" stuff or not doesn't matter to me; all that matters is they're consistent and interesting. I saw them get eliminated and I thought "Oh, that's a great decision. Yeah, I'm liking this pace." The Buu arc and latter Cell Arc must've been heartbreaking to you.
and these characters deserve to be treated with the respect that their respective audiences are giving.
They don't deserve anything. They're fictitious characters. What they "deserve" is to serve the plot in a consistent way. What the audience wants means nothing (or SHOULD mean nothing, as any good writer will tell you).
And who are you to say that Roshi has to remain on the sidelines because he's passed the baton to the new generation?
Who am I to say? I'm just a guy who read Toriyama's manga and saw that that was his character arc. And he literally says this as he leaves everything to Tenshinhan against King Piccolo. That was literally, and I mean quite literally, his character arc: being surpassed, acknowledging it, and letting his pupils take over.
The whole purpose of his mini-arc in this tournament, like someone stated, is that he's become inspired by the new generation and wants to keep pushing himself to further his expertise?
Right. Inspired by the new generation. Why didn't any of that happen when Piccolo Jr showed up? Or Raditz? Why didn't he go to Namek too? Why not help with the Androids, or Cell? It's just fan pandering bollsheet that goes against what the original manga established, and regresses his character. When he was inspired by the next generation and joined the tournament, he STILL lost to Tenshinhan and acknowledged his time was up. All of this happened, but the Super anime had him showing up Ten AND Krillin, which goes against what was established beforehand.
Who wouldn't want to see Krillin engage with an opponent? Same with Tien and Roshi. It'd be fanservice, but fanservice isn't bad when it's done right.
I wouldn't mind seeing Krillin being "badass" if it didn't intrude on the plot. Clearly the mangaka, as he plotted this battle's outline, determined that would be a waste of time. I agree with his decision since this led to at least 10 characters being eliminated instead of wasting pages on Krillin fighting Mr. Meeseeks or whatever other pointless character he fought in the anime.
You talk a lot of smack about fan fiction and fan service as if they're awful concepts.
Those things are fine. What isn't fine is when fans try to dictate how legitimate work should be done. Any writer worth his salt ignores the fanbase and doesn't let them dictate to him/her how to write. You see, fans come because a writer puts their ideas out there. If you then start pandering, you're going to run your series into the ground as you make decisions to please them. I've seen it happen multiple times with multiple franchises.

Toriyama, to his credit, is notorious for doing the opposite of what fans want, and he does so for the better. If you want pandering fanservice shit, it's all over the video games, and literally every other aspect of this multimedia franchise. The manga is the one place where we're being told a story that isn't trying to make every single sect of the fandom feel good; it's just telling a story.
We expect character interactions like krillin and Android 18 sharing their moments.
Your expectations coming in mean nothing. What matters is what the manga depicts. That's where you should draw your expectations from. As for your example, the manga depicts their relationship without going for the low-hanging fruit of "we love each other so much!" Instead, we get just little details like 18 staring angrily at Frieza, which are phenomenal. It's also worth nothing that the tournament of power is just 2 chapters in.
You're so blinded by the fact that the story of Dragon should maintain reality when the whole story is in fact a fantasy.
Strange you say I'm blinded when I'm easily the most open-minded person here in terms of the manga. I'm not in this thread crying and complaining every time spoilers come out. I'm not in here complaining about my favorites getting eliminated. I'm not in here complaining about Black not being "cool" anymore, etc. I'm just here for a well-written, consistent story.
Just because the Earthlings are weak does not mean they cannot contribute somewhat.
Scroll up and read something I said earlier in this comment.
I'll state again that I am content with Krillin and Tien's elimination. However Krillin deserved more panels instead of a surprise attack by Frost. Both their eliminations were pretty lackluster but the overall chapter makes up for it for being well-written and moving at a reasonable pace.
Krillin doesn't deserve anything; he's a fictional character who has never been treated with supreme gravitas. Rather, he's been treated comedically since his first appearances. Why is this fandom so obsessed with people being taken seriously when the manga is rife with comedy?
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