"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TKA]

Not my logic, but real logic. That why this arc has one of the worst storytelling we ever saw in the franchise. This fake tension kills everything.

Pay attention to the story, yeah?

Last chapter Frost went all out. We saw the results of that. That was Toyotaro showing why the characters are holding back and not fighting at their best the whole time. This is basic story structure.

[Bergamo]

Jiren should literally end the tournament immediately by your logic.

Not my logic, but real logic. That why this arc has one of the worst storytelling we ever saw in the franchise. This fake tension kills everything.

Why didn't Vegeta kill Gohan and Krillin? Why didn't Frieza go 100% and kill goku immediately? Why didn't Cell kill Gohan immediately? Why didn't Buu kill literally everyone? Why does Bowser keep standing above lava pits? Why even create fictitious media, I mean, that's not how, "real logic," works.

[Nevaeh]

Manga Hit is such a loser. Guy he saves tells him to fuck off then gets baited into his own elimination

It's like Toyotaro read the discussions here on Kanzenshuu and said:
''You think Hit is a loser in my manga?! I'll show you what a real loser is!''

To think some thought He'd replace Vegeta as Goku's rival.

I can't wait to see what Toyotaro has for Vegeta in the coming chapters.

I don't think he was ever intended too tbh

He was probably just another guy Goku fights in the outline. Toei just liked him so they wanked him hard

[jeffbr92]

Why didn't Vegeta kill Gohan and Krillin? Why didn't Frieza go 100% and kill goku immediately? Why didn't Cell kill Gohan immediately? Why didn't Buu kill literally everyone? Why even create fictitious media, I mean, that's not how, "real logic," works.

Vegeta didn't have enough power to, Freeza is the guy who rarely does the dirty work, he would never dream to use his full power to kill someone else, Cell was curious about Gohan latent power and his Saiyan genes were stimulated by the challenge. Which Boo? Fat Boo was about to, but Satan convinced him otherwise, Super Boo killed all the earthlings, Kid Boo destroyed the Earth and was about to destroy more planets before sensing Goku and Vegeta in the Sacred World of the Kaioshin.

So yeah bashing Z to defend Super? I've seen better.

My point is not the fictional aspects of this series and yes its elements that could be used to improve the storyline: like someone going on rampage eliminating several foes and then being disqualified for having killed one unintentionally, thus explaining why they have to hold back with enemies they don't know, now Goku vs. Toppo? He should take advantage of Goku using a power weaker than the one used on their last brawl, that's why is poor storytelling. Not just the manga as the anime has a lot of these issues.

[TKA]

Toppo? He should take advantage of Goku using a power weaker than the one used on their last brawl, that's why is poor storytelling. Not just the manga as the anime has a lot of these issues.

Hey, I told you why that's not possible.

I also told you why Toyotaro explicitly showed why your idea is a bad idea in the tournament. Let me quote them for you:

Last chapter Frost went all out. We saw the results of that. That was Toyotaro showing why the characters are holding back and not fighting at their best the whole time. This is basic story structure.

If Toppo goes all out, then Goku goes all out (and Goku's "all out" is stronger than Toppo's), which causes them both to waste a bunch of energy. Bad decision. Don't call "bad storytelling" so liberally just because you didn't pay attention to the story.

[Bergamo]

Why didn't Vegeta kill Gohan and Krillin? Why didn't Frieza go 100% and kill goku immediately? Why didn't Cell kill Gohan immediately? Why didn't Buu kill literally everyone? Why even create fictitious media, I mean, that's not how, "real logic," works.

Vegeta didn't have enough power to, Freeza is the guy who rarely does the dirty work, he would never dream to use his full power to kill someone else, Cell was curious about Gohan latent power and his Saiyan genes were stimulated by the challenge. Which Boo? Fat Boo was about to, but Satan convinced him otherwise, Super Boo killed all the earthlings, Kid Boo destroyed the Earth and was about to destroy more planets before sensing Goku and Vegeta in the Sacred World of the Kaioshin.

So yeah bashing Z to defend Super? I've seen better.

My point is not the fictional aspects of this series and yes its elements that could be used to improve the storyline: like someone going on rampage eliminating several foes and then being disqualified for having killed one unintentionally, thus explaining why they have to hold back with enemies they don't know, now Goku vs. Toppo? He should take advantage of Goku using a power weaker than the one used on their last brawl, that's why is poor storytelling. Not just the manga as the anime has a lot of these issues.

I'm not bashing Z, I'm saying that this arc operates on the same logic as any other arc in Dragonball. There's a reason people don't complain whenever characters watch eachother transform. It's been accepted that people don't one-shot eachother, because no one wants to see a "big-bad one-shots weaker opponents compilation." This has happened in literally every arc in Dragonball Z.

[Rebel Instinct]

Thanks guys for the outpouring of good vibes. TKA, batistabus, Exline, Marlowe89, CriticalThinker, prince212 and anyone else's name I may have forgotten, you're good folks! And Exline, don't you feel guilty about a thing. You didn't start anything, you just put words to how I was already feeling. I appreciate the kind words everybody, makes me feel welcome.

Without further adieu, on to my thoughts. I'll try to keep the defense to a minimum (since I think we're all plenty sick of that by now) and just give the impressions I got while reading.

The fight between Goku, Dyspo and Toppo, while brief, was enjoyable to watch. Goku quickly worked his way up the Pride Trooper ladder to reach Jiren, only transforming as necessary as he goes, and now he's finally fighting the left and right hands of the king. Obviously all three were intentionally sandbagging during the fight. None of them are fighting at full strength in order to conserve their energy/stamina in the hopes of eliminating one or the other without draining the energy reserves they'll need for later. Sure Goku could go Completed Super Saiyan Blue and Toppo could tap into his God ki and whip out any God of Destruction techniques he may be hiding all right from the start if they wanted to. We know they're all capable of more than they're currently showing, even Dyspo. They're all playing a game of chicken to see who will be forced to go full power and waste their precious stamina first.

I liked how Dyspo went from respecting Goku's skills to getting angry at him for thinking "they aren't worth it" after Toppo tells him Goku has more transformations in store and has been holding back the whole time. It's a nice little snippit of Dyspo's personality and mannerisms. I also liked how Toyotaro illustrated Dyspo's super speed and the way he and Toppo worked together as a team, with Dyspo serving up Goku for Toppo to lay the smackdown.

i liked the way Goku was actually concerned for Hit when he saw him go down while fighting Jiren. He was getting literally pummeled into the ground and yet he was still worried about Hit enough to go Blue and drop his current fight to come to his aid. Of course it was also partially motivated to get a piece of Jiren, but the camaraderie between Goku and Hit was really charming to see. Goku only fought Hit once in the Universe 6 tournament and they both left such a strong impression on one another. Now, Goku already thinks of Hit as one of his buddies. And may I say that I loved the scene of Goku exploding into Blue to get Toppo off of him. That panel of CSSB Goku standing up out of the crater before dashing off to Hit's side is one of my favorite shots in the entire chapter.

One of the things that makes this chapter for me, is the back and forth between Hit and Goku. They talk like old friends, smirking and joking with one another. Hit is one of my favorite new characters and it made me happy to see him smile and strategize alongside his new rival. Hit has grown a lot as a character since meeting Goku. He's regained a passion for fighting and begun striving toward self improvement. His fight with Goku shook off the rust and taught him that we was no longer the biggest fish in the sea. He realized that Time Skip was a crutch and set it aside in favor of working on improving his physical abilities and developing new techniques. This whole development reinforces my initial impression that Hit was introduced not as the next grand antagonist, but as Goku's newest rival from another universe. Seeing the two of them bounce off one another was entertaining as hell.

The fact that Goku chose not to back up Hit against Jiren later on in the fight didn't bother me a bit. It wasn't disrespectful to Hit at all and he understood Goku's reasoning right away. Hit didn't feel slighted by Goku's decision, so why should the viewer? Judging by Goku's expression on page 32 before he reverts to base form, Goku was even feeling a little conflicted about the situation, but ultimately decided that the only way they stood any chance of victory was if he managed to push past Blue and achieve what lies beyond (Ultra Instinct). It's true that Goku was partially motivated by his own selfish desire to win with his own two hands, but that's entirely within Goku's character. He did the very same thing in the face of Kid Buu when he turned down fusion and chose to fight him alone. It's not particularly good logic, but it's not out of character at all. At least this time around Goku has a plan to unlock a new form to help justify his decision.

The biggest thing that put a smile on my face in this chapter and had me quietly fanboying all morning was the reveal of Hit's new strength. New Hit is an absolute monster. He's not Jiren monstrous (who is at this point?), but the new and improved Hit is on par with Completed Super Saiyan Blue Goku - all without using Time Skip/Time Lag, his killing techniques or powering up to max. Damn. Breaking down what Hit is capable of at this point, blew my mind.

As he is now, Hit would be able to absolutely crush Goku in a one on one fight. CSSB Goku was strong enough to go toe to toe with Merged Zamasu. Hit is now on par with CSSB Goku in physical might. While Hit may have elected to set aside Time Skip during his battle with Jiren, he still has the technique. Given the rules established for Time Skip, we know that it only works on opponents that are at or below Hit in power. This means that Goku at his maximum power should hypothetically be susceptible to Time Skip again. Even if we take Time Skip out of the equation, Hit now has Time Lag - an ability that still works even on opponents that are far stronger than he is. Going by Vados' words during his fight with Jiren, Time Lag has the power to freeze enemies in place, but Jiren was so strong that it was only able to slow him down. This means that the weaker the enemy, the more Time Lag can slow them down. Since Goku is much weaker than Jiren was at the time, Time Lag should slow CSSB Goku to a crawl - if not stop him completely. Throw in Hit's killing techniques and Goku at his absolute strongest doesn't stand a ghost of a chance,

Sadly, Hit's first opponent was Jiren and he was inevitably eliminated earlier than I would've hoped. I wish he had stuck around a little longer, but it is what it is. I didn't care that he didn't get any eliminations. He aimed right for the top and went straight for Jiren from the outset instead of beating around the bush with weaker opponents. He didn't need to rack up a sizable score because that's not the measure of Hit's character. He'd grown significantly as a person, grew exponentially more powerful, developed a sweet new ability and put on a great show. That's enough to satisfy me.

Setting aside my personal excitement over Hit's progress, I enjoyed the rest of the fight with Jiren in general. Outside of a slight overuse of Toyotaro's signature "flurry of blows" panels, I thought the choreography was nice. I liked seeing the classic spinning back-flip from Goku and how acrobatic he and Hit were while fighting. I also enjoyed the exchange Jiren had with Goku about the latter being just another "nameless warrior" that was out of his depth, but later recognizing Goku's sharp perception and acknowledging him by remembering his name. Goku finally has Jiren's attention.

There's probably more I could say, but I'm tapping out for now 'cause I'm super tired (forgive any typos). Honestly, my favorite part of the chapter was seeing how far Hit had come and watching him interact with Goku like they were buddies. Knowing that Hit is now Merged Zamasu tier and strong enough to throttle Goku's strongest form just put a big dumb smile on my face. I know I was feeling bummed out earlier and I still kinda am, but I tried to get across the idea of how I felt about this chapter as best I could. I'm still saddened by all the hate, but I felt like I aught to give my two cents since I made a big deal about how excited I initially was after reading the chapter. It wasn't just the fact that people had differing opinions from mine regarding the chapter, it was the ugly, spiteful way people spoke about it. Criticism is fine, but a lot of the remarks people are making go way beyond that and straight to full-on insults and bile. I thought this was one of the strongest chapters of the Tournament of Power so far and it really sucked to see so many people call it not only the weakest chapter, but outright garbage... It''s a high caliber mood killer.

[prince212]

The fact that Goku chose not to back up Hit against Jiren later on in the fight didn't bother me a bit. It wasn't disrespectful to Hit at all and he understood Goku's reasoning right away. Hit didn't feel slighted by Goku's decision, so why should the viewer? Judging by Goku's expression on page 32 before he reverts to base form, Goku was even feeling a little conflicted about the situation, but ultimately decided that the only way they stood any chance of victory was if he managed to push past Blue and achieve what lies beyond (Ultra Instinct). It's true that Goku was partially motivated by his own selfish desire to win with his own two hands, but that's entirely within Goku's character. He did the very same thing in the face of Kid Buu when he turned down fusion and chose to fight him alone. It's not particularly good logic, but it's not out of character at all. At least this time around Goku has a plan to unlock a new form to help justify his decision.

Mmm It bothered me how Goku denied help hit considering that he saved his ass right before what looks about a final punch that put Goku out of the tournament . But after a re-thinking .... Goku was the first one to go help hit ... and the proud warrior plot is understandable, so , it’s bothering me less ... but one thing is for sure , the difference of power is not comparable with non of those who Goku gave a second chance in the past , come on , Goku wasn’t able to land a single punch ..... so what could happened if hit doesn’t save Goku with the Dinamic kick , ultra instinct? Lucky ...
Truth is that battle is going on , but poor thing hit is out and Goku didn’t save him .
At least hit doesn’t have more debt with Goku (pag 25) . what was it ? Wasn’t more gokus debt because hit let Monaka win and u7 keep the earth?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I wish people could do the same as I did for those episodes like they would do with manga chapters they may have been upset with. Maybe they just need help understanding it better. It's not easy going from anime to manga for some individuals is what I assume. Lots of my friends don't enjoy manga and can only rely on the anime interpretations. Manga's don't have music, voice actors, actual sound effects etc. to make it as enjoyable as the anime so I can sort of understand that.

Its like at times people are almost waiting to anticipate something to dislike in the manga to further say its bad, to either then claim the anime they were hyped for is still valid, or that they don't have the same hype for the manga and thus say the manga doing anything they don't understand or that contradicts the anime (regardless of reasoning) its bad. Period. With the anime, people will look for a plethora of ways to try and make sense of it though to keep that hype going. I have seen no defence for the manga the way I see it for the anime over everything its criticized for.

[Hawk9211]

Reason for hit not trying to kill jiren:

In manga,killing will result in entire team being disqualified.Wonder if we might see the rule being actively imposed.

[The Monkey King]

First of all Goku and Hit didn't fight together vs one common opponent in the anime. Goku fought Dyspo and then Took Kunshee while Hit at first took Kunshee and then switched to Dyspo, they never went 2 vs 1 on anyone.

They still had each other's backs and had a somewhat similar dynamic to this manga chapter

Secondly, how exactly is goku supposed to push himself in times of peace?

He can fight Beerus anytime he wants to, such as when Vegeta did a few chapters ago.

Also since when has Goku done the smart/logical thing?

Teaming up with Piccolo to beat Radditz
Screaming at Gohan to kill Cell
Staying dead for 7 years so he wouldn't attract any more bad guys to attack Earth.
Using the SSJG ritual to fight Beerus

Same guy who let Vegeta live

Goku already had a way to surpass Vegeta via Kaio-Ken.

Against Jiren all he has is a vague notion that he can "push himself"

Let freeza go 100% and offered to let him live

Goku offering to let Freeza live was more of a punishment as he broke Freeza's pride and spirit and he's have to live with the fact a saiyan surpassed him.

Didn't use shenron to kill gero

I'll concede this point to an extent.

Gave cell a senzu

He gave Cell a senzu because he knew Gohan was stronger than Cell

didn't kill fat buu and instead left it up to 2 kids with ZERO combat experience

Goten and Trunks didn't have zero combat experience. Goten was trained by Gohan/Chi-Chi and Trunks was trained by Vegeta.
He also had the fusion dance up his sleeve.

At any rate the stakes here are far, FAR greater than anything beforehand, this is the assured erasure of his entire universe with no Dragon Balls to bring anything back.

[Marlowe89]

Manga's don't have music, voice actors, actual sound effects etc. to make it as enjoyable as the anime so I can sort of understand that.

I suspect that a lot of that has to do with why some of the manga's detractors use vague descriptors like "dry", "flat", "boring" etc. even for a chapter like this one that was clearly trying to be impactful. Imagine going from an animated motion picture with voices, sounds, BGM, and the fact that there are more reactionary shots to pack in a 23-minute episode to an equivalent manga chapter and seeing the massive difference that would make.

It's the anime that came first in this case, and it's the anime that contributes inherent audiovisual advantages over the manga, so of course it's going to be the anime that instills more of that emotional flair for those that consume both mediums. That'll never change.

Why didn't Toppo casually one shot SSJ2 Goku?

Why didn't Toppo casually one shot SS3 Goku during the exhibition?

It's possible to write an interesting story and adhere to the series' general power-scaling without having it play out like a Comic Vine thread at all times. Realistically speaking, that's just not going to happen. Most manga artists in general aren't concerned with obsessively overanalyzing it to that level, nor should they be.

Moreover, the "sandbagging" critique doesn't take into account the fact that the tournament is being treated as more of a marathon than a sprint, as batistabus puts it. Goku and Vegeta clearly aren't the only guys there trying to conserve their stamina and power for later. Neglecting to do so was the whole reason Frost was eliminated.

[Zamasu55]

A pretty disappointing chapter.


Why didn't Toppo casually one shot SSJ2 Goku?

The anime did a way better job with Goku and Hit fighting together and Hit vs Jiren

He was literally slaughtering him until Goku went Blue and broke free.

[kemuri07]

While I do think this chapter is a bit weaker than previous chapters, this is still far better than its anime counterpart. Because (and say it with me) there's actually tension.

It's been cool seeing this battle royale go all in from the get-go, and seeing Goku struggle from the very beginning is actually damn exciting. The problem with the anime is that it felt episode after episode of Goku and Vegeta just trouncing on everyone until Jiren finally stepped in and provided some much needed excitement to the arc. Here, almost immediately Goku is taking on some heavy-hitters, and it's cool seeing both Toppo and Dystopo acknowledge Goku's ability to transform and work together to make sure he can't get a chance to.

Seeing Hit and Goku work together to take on Jiren was cool too.

Also cool: so far, the manga hasn't (yet) stooped to literally blowing Android 17 by making him a god-tier character, and I'm hoping the ending in the anime doesn't happen here.

[The Monkey King]

A pretty disappointing chapter.


Why didn't Toppo casually one shot SSJ2 Goku?

The anime did a way better job with Goku and Hit fighting together and Hit vs Jiren

He was literally slaughtering him until Goku went Blue and broke free.

Hardly.

He should've been able to casually one shot him and leave Goku crippled like so:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku wasn't even bruised after Toppo battered him.

Moreover, the "sandbagging" critique doesn't take into account the fact that the tournament is being treated as more of a marathon than a sprint, as batistabus puts it. Goku and Vegeta clearly aren't the only guys there trying to conserve their stamina and power for later. Neglecting to do so was the whole reason Frost was eliminated.

It doesn't take any effort to one shot someone hundreds of time weaker than you are.

How exhausted are you after swatting a fly?

[kemuri07]

I don't understand what you want.

Since that'd effectively end the story.

[Doctor.]

I don't understand what you want.

Since that'd effectively end the story.

Not really. The effective way to handle a battle royale in Dragon Ball would be to have every fighter go all-out from the start and fight characters at their own level, that is if you want to have prolonged fights. A battle royale where "conserving stamina" is the most important thing doesn't work in Dragon Ball when a small power gap is enough to one shot characters with no effort.

If you were to think critically about this, there's absolutely no reason why the strongest fighters in the tournament couldn't just power-up and neck-chop the weaklings and throw them out. It certainly wouldn't tire them out, as The Monkey King said, you don't get tired from swatting a fly.

Also, this whole "conserving stamina" excuse was asinine back when people used it to defend the anime, and it's asinine now. Surely powering-up to defeat a weaker opponent with one hit consumes less stamina than getting battered around for 48 minutes.

[ekrolo2]

Manga's don't have music, voice actors, actual sound effects etc. to make it as enjoyable as the anime so I can sort of understand that.

I suspect that a lot of that has to do with why some of the manga's detractors use vague descriptors like "dry", "flat", "boring" etc. even for a chapter like this one that was clearly trying to be impactful. Imagine going from an animated motion picture with voices, sounds, BGM, and the fact that there are more reactionary shots to pack in a 23-minute episode to an equivalent manga chapter and seeing the massive difference that would make.

It's the anime that came first in this case, and it's the anime that contributes inherent audiovisual advantages over the manga, so of course it's going to be the anime that instills more of that emotional flair for those that consume both mediums. That'll never change.

This is something I wish more people would discuss when comparing the two as I feel it highlights key differences between mediums.

As Frank Miller put it: a comic cannot move you the same way film or anination can because those have scores, performances from actors and all sorts of things a comic and by extension manga simply cannot replicate.

Compare Gaara's speech in the manga vs the anime, the former is an impressive display of art and character development but it's the anime that shines thanks to the score, actors performance and anination that pulls at your heart strings.

That's not to say comics can't be impact full or that Toyotaro doesn't have lots of rough edges to shave off but film and animation pull it off to a much higher and easier level thanks to audio-visual elements manga and comics can't replicate.

[Doctor.]

I disagree. Toriyama's manga could be pretty impactful on its own. The man was a master at making his manga feel atmospheric (which is why it was so easy to adapt it into anime form in the first place) and all the story beats had the necessary "oomph" to them to lay the point home. Toyotaro's manga feels exactly like what it is: a pale imitation. He doesn't grasp Toriyama's masterful paneling, his charming art style and character expressions nor his first-rate choreography. Of course, he is limited to having a monthly manga, where each page feels cramped and he doesn't have the time to set-up tension and convey mood through multiple panels or even pages of establishing shots, but the complaints about his manga feeling dry are still legitimate.

Add to that the fact that he's a mediocre storyteller, who feels like he's just ticking off boxes on a checklist, one who tries to cram as many references and tie-ins as possible in order to increase his fan cred rather than writing his own story, and you can see why his manga feels so flavorless. It's not his vision nor is it Toriyama's vision. It's Toriyama's poorly thought-out, half-assed vision given form through Toyotaro's lack of talent.

[Zamasu55]

A pretty disappointing chapter.


Why didn't Toppo casually one shot SSJ2 Goku?

The anime did a way better job with Goku and Hit fighting together and Hit vs Jiren

He was literally slaughtering him until Goku went Blue and broke free.

Hardly.

He should've been able to casually one shot him and leave Goku crippled like so:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku wasn't even bruised after Toppo battered him.

Moreover, the "sandbagging" critique doesn't take into account the fact that the tournament is being treated as more of a marathon than a sprint, as batistabus puts it. Goku and Vegeta clearly aren't the only guys there trying to conserve their stamina and power for later. Neglecting to do so was the whole reason Frost was eliminated.

It doesn't take any effort to one shot someone hundreds of time weaker than you are.

How exhausted are you after swatting a fly?

Do you really think Toppo was fighting at maximum strenght?