"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Asura » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:03 pm

Pretty boring chapter. Despite all the complaints that the anime version didn't feel like a battle royale, the manga version feels even less like one somehow. A bit confused as to people's reactions that Hit was handled way better here than in the anime. The time lag thing was cool but ultimately pointless since Jiren was just screwing with him the entire time. At least in the anime Hit was able to temporarily freeze Jiren. I dunno, just not really digging this manga adaptation at all. Jiren has been handled better so far, and his dialogue with Goku in this chapter by first calling him a nameless warrior then referring to his name was pretty good. Goku alluding to Ultra Instinct felt kinda stupid and forced to me, all of a sudden he's like "Yep, I'm gonna figure out a new transformation during the tournament so we can win." Well okay then, that came out of nowhere. Didn't know Goku could just decide when he wants to get a new transformation now on the spot.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:22 pm

Asura wrote:Pretty boring chapter. Despite all the complaints that the anime version didn't feel like a battle royale, the manga version feels even less like one somehow. A bit confused as to people's reactions that Hit was handled way better here than in the anime. The time lag thing was cool but ultimately pointless since Jiren was just screwing with him the entire time. At least in the anime Hit was able to temporarily freeze Jiren. I dunno, just not really digging this manga adaptation at all. Jiren has been handled better so far, and his dialogue with Goku in this chapter by first calling him a nameless warrior then referring to his name was pretty good. Goku alluding to Ultra Instinct felt kinda stupid and forced to me, all of a sudden he's like "Yep, I'm gonna figure out a new transformation during the tournament so we can win." Well okay then, that came out of nowhere. Didn't know Goku could just decide when he wants to get a new transformation now on the spot.
Goku saw Beerus use Ultra Instinct at the exhibition match. It didn't come out of nowhere.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Asura » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:28 pm

That has nothing to do with Goku mentioning that he's going to acquire a new transformation during the tournament... somehow.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:31 pm

Asura wrote:That has nothing to do with Goku mentioning that he's going to acquire a new transformation during the tournament... somehow.
He never said it would definitely be a transformation. He just said, "something like that," because he isn't sure exactly what ultra instinct is like.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:35 pm

Can we expect UI on the next chapter or Toyotaro will save it to the last one?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:45 pm

TKA wrote: This is a story, not a guidebook. You're not going to have characters literally explain every basic thing to you that any reader paying attention should be able to pick up on. Inference is absolutely necessary when reading stories as authors simply cannot explain every little detail in their world. Not even Tolkien did.

We know for a fact that each progressive form of super saiyan eats up more ki than the previous form. We know Blue eats up more ki than God. We know God has been described multiple times as the level after Super Saiyan 3. This isn't a "2+2 = fish" case, this is "2+X=4".
Except in this topic in question there's various abnormalities and changes all of which are always specified. SSJ3 should still be considered a bad transformation since there's no mention of it's flaws being surpassed, something that has been said in regards to Super Saiyan. Meaning SSG consumes much less than a previous form.
Now that justifies me needing clarification in regards to SSJ2 which is the only form not specified.
No, I don't see your point because the example you used is... shaky. The simple answer is Goku is fighting at SS2 because he deemed fighting at SS1 to be impossible given the level of his opponents. Things aren't binary: just because you're holding back doesn't mean you're going to lower your power level to 5.
That's completely arbitrary. SSJ2 doesn't bother Toppo we saw this. All inferior forms don't matter and if Toppo is apparently so kind to match up just a bit above Goku, surely he would do him the favor in SSJ or Base.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ToshioWrites » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:49 pm

Goku knows he has to go beyond SSB to have a chance at beating Jiren and win the tournament and for that he needs to absolutely push himself since saiyans are able to tap into power when they are cornered. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if he throws the spirit bomb at jiren with the plan that it get sent back at him and force him to push himself to a higher level because in the manga goku already knows jiren is > GoD and I don't think he would think a spirit bomb from 10 people would actually work on him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:02 pm

Are we still having this debate...?

You guys are so hung up on what transformation Goku is using on Toppo and Dyspo, yet we literally saw the consequence of him holding back his transformations. He even alludes to being forced to use another form.

Just cause he didn't have much of a struggle in SSJ2 doesn't mean Toppo has been reduced to that level. All Goku did while in SSJ2 was block Toppo's attacks. Toppo revealed to Dyspo he was holdign back and they took advantage of that and overpowered him.

What exactly is the problem?...

This might be one of the most ridiculous debates I've ever witnessed.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:38 pm

A 45 page chapter and we chose to arbitrarily focus on the 5 least important pages. Goku was SS2 at the start of the fight, so he probably transformed against a different opponent. It's not like he thought Toppo was SS2 level, but he's just trying to save as much stamina as he can. SSG is sustainable, but it's inconclusive whether or not it's sustainable for up to 43 minutes.

Edit: Nevermind. I don't really want to discuss this anymore. It's comments like this that perpetuate stupid feuds such as the one in question.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:48 pm

Asura wrote:Pretty boring chapter. Despite all the complaints that the anime version didn't feel like a battle royale, the manga version feels even less like one somehow. A bit confused as to people's reactions that Hit was handled way better here than in the anime. The time lag thing was cool but ultimately pointless since Jiren was just screwing with him the entire time. At least in the anime Hit was able to temporarily freeze Jiren. I dunno, just not really digging this manga adaptation at all. Jiren has been handled better so far, and his dialogue with Goku in this chapter by first calling him a nameless warrior then referring to his name was pretty good. Goku alluding to Ultra Instinct felt kinda stupid and forced to me, all of a sudden he's like "Yep, I'm gonna figure out a new transformation during the tournament so we can win." Well okay then, that came out of nowhere. Didn't know Goku could just decide when he wants to get a new transformation now on the spot.
Would you approach a fight between hit, goku and jiren. If i was in a battle royale I'm staying far, far away from that. Its not a bad thing for the manga to shift focus to one on ones as long as its not always doing that. By the same token i dont want just pages with like 10 plus characters on each.

Plus we got dyspo and toppo taking on Goku together. Loved how they just werent on goku's radar at all.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ToshioWrites » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:13 pm

All this uproar over goku using ss2 to fight toppo. I hope there was this much uproar about goku running through all but 1 of his forms vs jiren in the special episode and NO Roshi's dumb explanation doesn't justify that. Jiren let out so much ki the entire world of void was shaking and even beerus was freaked out about that and yet you had goku trying to "test" him out while coming in knowing he was > Toppo and had already seen him basically one shot Kale and Maji Kayo without any sort of effort

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Asura » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:20 pm

nato25 wrote:
Asura wrote:Pretty boring chapter. Despite all the complaints that the anime version didn't feel like a battle royale, the manga version feels even less like one somehow. A bit confused as to people's reactions that Hit was handled way better here than in the anime. The time lag thing was cool but ultimately pointless since Jiren was just screwing with him the entire time. At least in the anime Hit was able to temporarily freeze Jiren. I dunno, just not really digging this manga adaptation at all. Jiren has been handled better so far, and his dialogue with Goku in this chapter by first calling him a nameless warrior then referring to his name was pretty good. Goku alluding to Ultra Instinct felt kinda stupid and forced to me, all of a sudden he's like "Yep, I'm gonna figure out a new transformation during the tournament so we can win." Well okay then, that came out of nowhere. Didn't know Goku could just decide when he wants to get a new transformation now on the spot.
Would you approach a fight between hit, goku and jiren. If i was in a battle royale I'm staying far, far away from that. Its not a bad thing for the manga to shift focus to one on ones as long as its not always doing that. By the same token i dont want just pages with like 10 plus characters on each.

Plus we got dyspo and toppo taking on Goku together. Loved how they just werent on goku's radar at all.
I wasn't referring just specifically to this chapter, the entire thing doesn't really feel like a big tournament with tons of people fighting in it. The arena looks really, really tiny in almost every shot. That's actually pretty easy to see in this chapter though. It's like Toyotaro has trouble drawing depth of field or something because it always looks like every character is fighting at the edge of the arena, or that they're the only characters fighting on the entire arena because everything behind them is just blank and empty arena space. Here's a picture with a few shots from 34 and 35 to show exactly what I mean:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

The anime handled this in a much smarter manner by destroying the arena so everything was just a rocky wasteland which obstructed the view of the background. Notice how curved the arena is in some of these shots, which makes it seem really tiny if it's curving like that. I know it was hard to tell where people were in the arena in the anime version, but here it's even worse because everyone looks like they're in the exact same location because of how small the arena is. I don't even know how 80 people can fit on this thing, the anime version always felt gigantic in most shots.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:35 pm

Asura wrote:
nato25 wrote:
Asura wrote:Pretty boring chapter. Despite all the complaints that the anime version didn't feel like a battle royale, the manga version feels even less like one somehow. A bit confused as to people's reactions that Hit was handled way better here than in the anime. The time lag thing was cool but ultimately pointless since Jiren was just screwing with him the entire time. At least in the anime Hit was able to temporarily freeze Jiren. I dunno, just not really digging this manga adaptation at all. Jiren has been handled better so far, and his dialogue with Goku in this chapter by first calling him a nameless warrior then referring to his name was pretty good. Goku alluding to Ultra Instinct felt kinda stupid and forced to me, all of a sudden he's like "Yep, I'm gonna figure out a new transformation during the tournament so we can win." Well okay then, that came out of nowhere. Didn't know Goku could just decide when he wants to get a new transformation now on the spot.
Would you approach a fight between hit, goku and jiren. If i was in a battle royale I'm staying far, far away from that. Its not a bad thing for the manga to shift focus to one on ones as long as its not always doing that. By the same token i dont want just pages with like 10 plus characters on each.

Plus we got dyspo and toppo taking on Goku together. Loved how they just werent on goku's radar at all.
I wasn't referring just specifically to this chapter, the entire thing doesn't really feel like a big tournament with tons of people fighting in it. The arena looks really, really tiny in almost every shot. That's actually pretty easy to see in this chapter though. It's like Toyotaro has trouble drawing depth of field or something because it always looks like every character is fighting at the edge of the arena, or that they're the only characters fighting on the entire arena because everything behind them is just blank and empty arena space. Here's a picture with a few shots from 34 and 35 to show exactly what I mean:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

The anime handled this in a much smarter manner by destroying the arena so everything was just a rocky wasteland which obstructed the view of the background. Notice how curved the arena is in some of these shots, which makes it seem really tiny if it's curving like that. I know it was hard to tell where people were in the arena in the anime version, but here it's even worse because everyone looks like they're in the exact same location because of how small the arena is. I don't even know how 80 people can fit on this thing, the anime version always felt gigantic in most shots.
I will admit that it's a little bit distracting when it looks like everyone is fighting within 2 inches of eachother. I do however like how every chapter feels discrete, but it does create the problem of making everything seem too small.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:43 pm

Bergamo wrote:
Asura wrote:
nato25 wrote:
Would you approach a fight between hit, goku and jiren. If i was in a battle royale I'm staying far, far away from that. Its not a bad thing for the manga to shift focus to one on ones as long as its not always doing that. By the same token i dont want just pages with like 10 plus characters on each.

Plus we got dyspo and toppo taking on Goku together. Loved how they just werent on goku's radar at all.
I wasn't referring just specifically to this chapter, the entire thing doesn't really feel like a big tournament with tons of people fighting in it. The arena looks really, really tiny in almost every shot. That's actually pretty easy to see in this chapter though. It's like Toyotaro has trouble drawing depth of field or something because it always looks like every character is fighting at the edge of the arena, or that they're the only characters fighting on the entire arena because everything behind them is just blank and empty arena space. Here's a picture with a few shots from 34 and 35 to show exactly what I mean:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

The anime handled this in a much smarter manner by destroying the arena so everything was just a rocky wasteland which obstructed the view of the background. Notice how curved the arena is in some of these shots, which makes it seem really tiny if it's curving like that. I know it was hard to tell where people were in the arena in the anime version, but here it's even worse because everyone looks like they're in the exact same location because of how small the arena is. I don't even know how 80 people can fit on this thing, the anime version always felt gigantic in most shots.
I will admit that it's a little bit distracting when it looks like everyone is fighting within 2 inches of eachother. I do however like how every chapter feels discrete, but it does create the problem of making everything seem too small.
Yeah Toyotaro does have a poor sense of scale. But it's something I don't care too much about. I do like the rocky arena and hope Toyotaro implements that into the tournament.

Maybe Jiren and Goku's fight will be so intense that it causes destruction all around the arena. I have this feeling the next chapter is definitely UI Goku vs. Jiren.

But I also want the other fighters to be more expressive and interactive with the cast. This chapter disappointed me in ensuring the setting feels like a Battle Royale. The kakunsa and shosa panel was the only thing we got in the middle of the fight. I thought the anime did better in that sense. The anime had Jiren and Goku chasing each other in the air, where they hover over other fighters in their own battles. Hope Toyotaro takes notes on that!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by EGonzo » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:04 pm

While I didn't find this chapter great, I don't have many things to complain but there's two things that confuse me:

1) Why is Goku using SSJ2 and keep up with Toppo and Dyspo? My main confusion is that Toppo pre-God Ki was so strong SSJ3 Goku couldn't even react to him. So Toppo not serious is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but here SSJ2 can keep up (even if at a disadvantage) with his speed and strength, along with fighting a second opponent at the same time.

2) The bit with Hit and Jiren. Goku knows Jiren is the strongest there, and the biggest obstacle to win the tournament. It makes sense he says he needs to break his limits to beat Jiren and thus win, but it doesn't make sense that he says it right after a guy tells him "hey, I have this way to beat him, just back me up". It doesn't really make sense, especially he genuinely thought Hit was gonna win until the last minute.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:27 pm

Asura wrote:
nato25 wrote:
Asura wrote:Pretty boring chapter. Despite all the complaints that the anime version didn't feel like a battle royale, the manga version feels even less like one somehow. A bit confused as to people's reactions that Hit was handled way better here than in the anime. The time lag thing was cool but ultimately pointless since Jiren was just screwing with him the entire time. At least in the anime Hit was able to temporarily freeze Jiren. I dunno, just not really digging this manga adaptation at all. Jiren has been handled better so far, and his dialogue with Goku in this chapter by first calling him a nameless warrior then referring to his name was pretty good. Goku alluding to Ultra Instinct felt kinda stupid and forced to me, all of a sudden he's like "Yep, I'm gonna figure out a new transformation during the tournament so we can win." Well okay then, that came out of nowhere. Didn't know Goku could just decide when he wants to get a new transformation now on the spot.
Would you approach a fight between hit, goku and jiren. If i was in a battle royale I'm staying far, far away from that. Its not a bad thing for the manga to shift focus to one on ones as long as its not always doing that. By the same token i dont want just pages with like 10 plus characters on each.

Plus we got dyspo and toppo taking on Goku together. Loved how they just werent on goku's radar at all.
I wasn't referring just specifically to this chapter, the entire thing doesn't really feel like a big tournament with tons of people fighting in it. The arena looks really, really tiny in almost every shot. That's actually pretty easy to see in this chapter though. It's like Toyotaro has trouble drawing depth of field or something because it always looks like every character is fighting at the edge of the arena, or that they're the only characters fighting on the entire arena because everything behind them is just blank and empty arena space. Here's a picture with a few shots from 34 and 35 to show exactly what I mean:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

The anime handled this in a much smarter manner by destroying the arena so everything was just a rocky wasteland which obstructed the view of the background. Notice how curved the arena is in some of these shots, which makes it seem really tiny if it's curving like that. I know it was hard to tell where people were in the arena in the anime version, but here it's even worse because everyone looks like they're in the exact same location because of how small the arena is. I don't even know how 80 people can fit on this thing, the anime version always felt gigantic in most shots.
Yeah no doubt you are right on that, the arena should basically never looked curved in my opinion because this arena should be huge. I feel this is a common problem with Dragon Ball throughout unfortunately with the Cell ring and Tenkaichi Budokai stage.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by nato25 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:37 pm

EGonzo wrote:While I didn't find this chapter great, I don't have many things to complain but there's two things that confuse me:

1) Why is Goku using SSJ2 and keep up with Toppo and Dyspo? My main confusion is that Toppo pre-God Ki was so strong SSJ3 Goku couldn't even react to him. So Toppo not serious is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but here SSJ2 can keep up (even if at a disadvantage) with his speed and strength, along with fighting a second opponent at the same time.

2) The bit with Hit and Jiren. Goku knows Jiren is the strongest there, and the biggest obstacle to win the tournament. It makes sense he says he needs to break his limits to beat Jiren and thus win, but it doesn't make sense that he says it right after a guy tells him "hey, I have this way to beat him, just back me up". It doesn't really make sense, especially he genuinely thought Hit was gonna win until the last minute.
Goku is a genius at reading fighters. I found it a bit jarring as well but I liked it. Goku knew anything they can try at their current level would he futile, he let hit try his thing but I'm sure he believed it wouldnt be enough.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:46 pm

OLKv3 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Ilikepictures-meh wrote: You're delusional. Hit legitimately caught Jiren off guard and knocked Jiren to the edge of the ring in the anime using pure skill and strategy before Jiren overpowered him. Unlike in the magna, Jiren was just screwing around with him the entire time. So Jiren going to the edge was nothing more than a plan by Jiren , unlike the anime where Hit is the first guy to strike Jiren legitimately. Claiming otherwise is naive
What was Hit going to do? Hold Jiren in a time cage the entire tournament?
That was his plan yes. He was sacrificing himself for the team, and trusting the Saiyans to take out the rest so they win by numbers advantage
I did like that aspect of Hit. It showed how he's willing to do whatever it takes to do his job, and made U6 feel like they're a true team
It didn't make logical sense for that to be the plan itself though. They should have just used the time-cage to throw him off. Not keep him there if they knew Jiren was that powerful. It was a bad strategy even if one no less. Slowing down Jiren's movement is a much more clear and simple way to use it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:55 pm

Exline wrote:I may have been overexaggerting for this chapter in particular. I gave it a 3rd read and notice he didn't really disappoint with the panels as much this time for me. But I have felt this way constantly with other chapters. Moreso the beginning of this series.

I'm referring to scenes like this:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
This panel doesn't feel it adds anything at all to the fight. It actually feels like it slows the pace of the fight.

If we remove that panel, I think we can get a better sense of pace in the battle. We're more used to much faster battles like in the anime and original manga.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
The kick looks much faster now without a panel of it slowly winding up. Especially when the kick doesn't have much impact on it. If it doesn't amount to anything, what is the need for a panel such as this? It works better in the later half of the chapter in scenarios such as where Jiren clenches his fist and prepares to uppercut Hit. But here, it doesn't really add anything imo. It's useless and unnecessary. I only refer to it that way because it would've been fine without it. I see it as a waste of time on Toyotaro's part as well. It's not the only panel I have a problem with it, but it's one of a few found in multiple chapters.

Toriyama captures the pace of the battle better with storyboarding like this:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
He makes the attack look fierce, powerful and fast.
We did not need to see Goku pull his fist back to give more force behind his punch. It is implied immediately once we see the panel.
In the following page, Toriyama also slows down the pace to demonstrate the emotion the antagonist is feeling after the attack. Something Toyotaro has trouble conveying sometimes. Most of the time he excels at it, but sometimes he doesn't.


Also pages like these:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Where it's just a page of nothing but dialogue with multiple panels I have a problem with as well. I do enjoy the dialogue and I understand that if it were all clumped into fewer panels, than it would not be as great. The panels themselves are what bore me. There is nothing to them. It just changes to someone else's face nearly each sentence and it's annoying. I feel Toyotaro could have definitely done much better with these scenes. It sometimes seems that he is trying to make these monthly chapters seem exactly like an anime episode which I personally don't think works too well. Why make a comic feel less of a comic?

Whilst discussing about how to beat Jiren, the panel could be focused just on him walking towards them whilst they discuss what they plan to do with him. But that's not what happen's here. To me, it's honestly too many expressions for one page. And the large quantity of panels on this page just for dialogue also makes it feel bloated because it seems unnecessary and be done with shorter. The dialogue would have to be dialed back, but I think it'd be for the better in cases like these.

( Apologies for my ranting, I only want Toyotaro to get better ); )
Toyotaro demonstrating Hit following up with a kick after his punch being blocked is called choreography. It's not to focus so much on high speed fighting. Toriyama has done this as well in his panels.
Also, those speech panels are necessary as they progress the story through characters dialogue-ing between each other. Giving us development on Hit's powers and Goku's mindset for the battle is vital.
Bergamo wrote:I think he refers to fights like Semiperfect Cell vs Vegeta where Vegeta turns his head for like 4 panels after being hit by an attack. He could have built a bit more tension after Goku fired his Blue Power at Jiren. Having an extra panel or two of smoke clearing would have made the show where Jiren emerges unscathed much more dramatic.
The extra dramatic panels would have brought nothing new to the audience as we already saw Jiren just lol pwn Goku and Hit at the same time before.
The Kamehameha doing nothing to Jiren and appearing quickly out of the smoke is fitting in a non competitive fight displaying Jiren's dominance.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ToshioWrites » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:21 pm

In the anime didn’t Hit admit to champa that he knew he had failed vs jiren once his punch didn’t send Jiren off the stage?

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