"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
OLKv3
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1632
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:39 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Sun May 20, 2018 7:25 am

It's not like he can ruin the Namekians because they never had a personality to begin with. They were utterly generic and the focus on the episode was Piccolo and Gohan being cool

User avatar
TKA
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 832
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun May 20, 2018 7:29 am

namekiansaiyan wrote: This is Dragon Ball and the majoirty of characters are liked due to the fighting they have. Fighting is the most important thing to most people when it comes to Dragon Ball

The majority of Piccolo fans will not satisfied until he is fighting like he used to you. People who prefer his 'character work' and can be satisfied by it are a minority.
I am really sick of people using made up statistics when trying to argue their points.

1. Argumentum ad Populum is bullshit and holds no value as a debate tactic.

2. What you're doing is Argumentum ad imaginary populum, since you have no numbers to support your claim.

I like Piccolo, and I just want to see him being an entertaining character. That goes for every character I like. I don't define what characters I like by how good they can shoot differently-colored ki blasts at each other, and I find making that the basis by which you judge a character to be rather immature.

Krillin did almost no fighting in the Namek arc, but that was one of the best times for his character's growth, for example. Bulma does no fighting, and her character is great. People sell this series so short when they only use power levels to judge characters lol.

Maybe the Super manga isn't for you. They're starting up a Dragonball Heroes promotional anime that might be more suited to your tastes.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 am

Disappointed, as well, that Piccolo isn't fighting the Namekians. Though predictable, it would provide an interesting dynamic. The anime butchered it, but it was still there and the interesting dynamic shone at points, specifically with the reversal of the usual "Piccolo saves Gohan" trope, and Piccolo being faced with people of his race having sacrificed themselves to save their planet (which Toei did almost nothing with, but the concept was there). Despite the fact that this was my biggest complaint about the anime, the problem in the manga is even more severe: characters are wasted with nothing interesting being done with them. Match-ups are random, arbitrary and pointless. Seems more like Toyotaro just wants to rush to the good stuff rather than write an entertaining story.

User avatar
namekiansaiyan
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 4355
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:39 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sun May 20, 2018 7:43 am

TKA wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote: This is Dragon Ball and the majoirty of characters are liked due to the fighting they have. Fighting is the most important thing to most people when it comes to Dragon Ball

The majority of Piccolo fans will not satisfied until he is fighting like he used to you. People who prefer his 'character work' and can be satisfied by it are a minority.
I am really sick of people using made up statistics when trying to argue their points.

1. Argumentum ad Populum is bullshit and holds no value as a debate tactic.

2. What you're doing is Argumentum ad imaginary populum, since you have no numbers to support your claim.

I like Piccolo, and I just want to see him being an entertaining character. That goes for every character I like. I don't define what characters I like by how good they can shoot differently-colored ki blasts at each other, and I find making that the basis by which you judge a character to be rather immature.

Krillin did almost no fighting in the Namek arc, but that was one of the best times for his character's growth, for example. Bulma does no fighting, and her character is great. People sell this series so short when they only use power levels to judge characters lol.

Maybe the Super manga isn't for you. They're starting up a Dragonball Heroes promotional anime that might be more suited to your tastes.
You don't need statistics to point out the obvious.

Piccolo fighting in a meaningful is the most entertaining thing to me. I can't find Piccolo looking weak, stupid and just useless to the story as entertaining. That is what I feel like with a lot of characters.

I don't watch dragon ball for deep character moments and always want it to come second for the majority of characters. You are obviously just different to me and if I'm immature to then regarding Dragon ball that is just your opinion but just remember that people like different things.

User avatar
LightBing
I Live Here
Posts: 3495
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:47 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun May 20, 2018 8:35 am

So people are up in arms about Piccolo and don't care about #18 who did much less? Once again bias, people like Piccolo more so expect more when they shouldn't. Nobody should expect characters to perform just because they are participating in the arc, they are tools nothing more for the writers.

Better to put Jiren and Goku in a small room and have them go at it. That way all others characters don't appear and we don't have to remember they exist. Clearly throwing a bone to anyone who isn't Goku, Vegeta and the antagonist isn't worth it.

Anyway looking at the chapter again while the Battle Royal feeling is clearly a success the focus on Universe 7 is too much this chapter, Gamisaras and Damon intervention was on fight's with Universe 7 in it. Starting to feel like only Universe 7 is doing anything.
Something small like them sneakily eliminating one or two who were outside this area would better integrate the whole battle.

User avatar
TheDipDap1234
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:56 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheDipDap1234 » Sun May 20, 2018 8:51 am

LightBing wrote:So people are up in arms about Piccolo and don't care about #18 who did much less? Once again bias, people like Piccolo more so expect more when they shouldn't. Nobody should expect characters to perform just because they are participating in the arc, they are tools nothing more for the writers.

Better to put Jiren and Goku in a small room and have them go at it. That way all others characters don't appear and we don't have to remember they exist. Clearly throwing a bone to anyone who isn't Goku, Vegeta and the antagonist isn't worth it.

Anyway looking at the chapter again while the Battle Royal feeling is clearly a success the focus on Universe 7 is too much this chapter, Gamisaras and Damon intervention was on fight's with Universe 7 in it. Starting to feel like only Universe 7 is doing anything.
Something small like them sneakily eliminating one or two who were outside this area would better integrate the whole battle.
I think the reason people in here aren't mad about 18's performance in the manga is because she did incredibly well in the anime whereas Piccolo performed mediocre in both the anime and the manga.
Gowasu's number 1 fan.

User avatar
TKA
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 832
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun May 20, 2018 10:59 am

It's a story. Characters are parts of a story. "X did well" is such a misguided way to view things. These aren't real people competing in a sport lol. These are characters fulfilling roles in a story. Wait for the actual chapter to come out and view context for what's happened.

Geez.
namekiansaiyan wrote: You don't need statistics to point out the obvious.
In other words, you have nothing to support your claims.

Okay, got it. Nice talking to you.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

User avatar
jeffbr92
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:49 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun May 20, 2018 1:50 pm

sintzu wrote:As much as I love the manga, it did a terrible job with the U7 fighters who are out so far, especially Piccolo. How can you have 2 Namekians yet never have Piccolo fight them?
Another proof of Toyotaro wanting his story to be different from the anime just to be.
LightBing wrote:Why should Piccolo fight the Namekians? Just because they are the same species? He doesn't know them.
Why should Goku fight with the Saiyan girls? Just because they are the same species? He doesn't know them.
Piccolo is not better than Kuririn or Muten Roshi, he's just another character a tool for the author. Being weaker or stronger than certain characters doesn't make him earn better performances.
In the original series that was the case so I see no problem with people wanting stuff consistent to what was back then.
TKA wrote:I don't get why people wanna see things they already saw in the anime.
Because the manga is not a entirely different story, you know? So in the anime we had Gotenks vs. Beerus, in the manga we had the same fight but with the boys using SSJ3 IIRC, it's the same stuff but with another perspective.
Power levels are not just big numbers:

by Doctor.

User avatar
TKA
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 832
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun May 20, 2018 3:24 pm

jeffbr92 wrote: Because the manga is not a entirely different story, you know? So in the anime we had Gotenks vs. Beerus, in the manga we had the same fight but with the boys using SSJ3 IIRC, it's the same stuff but with another perspective.
The anime is full of pointless, stupid shit that I don't want the manga to waste time reinterpreting though. I'd rather the manga do its own thing.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

User avatar
Exline
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Sun May 20, 2018 3:51 pm

If the manga just copies the many small fights we've seen in the anime's interpretation of the arc, it won't really stand out as much on it's own. It'd just be following in the shadows of the anime's footsteps, and it would further the annoying debate between which medium handles which fight better.

Toyotaro and Toei are not competing with one another and do not have to one up each other. They're both free to do their own things their own ways, whether we like it or not.

User avatar
Bergamo
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:18 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun May 20, 2018 4:40 pm

I hope we get 17 vs u6 Namekians. That would be a nice homage to Piccolo vs 17 in DBZ.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

User avatar
namekiansaiyan
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 4355
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:39 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sun May 20, 2018 4:58 pm

Bergamo wrote:I hope we get 17 vs u6 Namekians. That would be a nice homage to Piccolo vs 17 in DBZ.
It will most likely include Gohan in the fight so Gohan by himself or teaming up with 17.

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3072
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun May 20, 2018 6:06 pm

A few things...

The Namekian battle in the anime was actually quite good. It's one of the few fights that showed desperation and a sense of urgency of a universe's survival. Revealing the Namekian participants absorbed all the other Namekians in U6 was also another good writing point to demonstrate the ferocious lengths they were willing to go to ensure victory. The manga having the fight same scene would of been redundant tho.

Why are people inflamed that 18 got ousted? Her fights in the anime were pretty weak and you could tell they were practically filler. She almost lost to a blind raccoon. She is one of the weaklings, I'm glad Toyo ushered her to her seat early. Piccolo got done in the same way as he did in the anime? If so, this is Toriyama's will, simply put Piccolo is another weakling who saw the exit sign early. What is Toriyama doing with having Master Roshi still in the game, is quite evident, he simply chose him to have a bigger impact among the lower level fighters.

User avatar
KuririnNoKotoKa
Newbie
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:51 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by KuririnNoKotoKa » Sun May 20, 2018 8:30 pm

Doctor. wrote:Seems more like Toyotaro just wants to rush to the good stuff rather than write an entertaining story.
He did the exact same thing by exposition dumping the first third of the Future Trunks arc to rush to the fights and dragging the climax to ridiculous degrees.

Are you surprised?

User avatar
Analytical Delusion
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:36 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Analytical Delusion » Sun May 20, 2018 11:09 pm

So, how many more chapters do you guys think we'll have in this arc (including post-tournament wish/wrap up stuff), based on the pace so far?

User avatar
Bergamo
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:18 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun May 20, 2018 11:19 pm

Analytical Delusion wrote:So, how many more chapters do you guys think we'll have in this arc (including post-tournament wish/wrap up stuff), based on the pace so far?
U10 goes next, and judging from the FT arc and the ToP in the anime, I think we'll get half a chapter of post tournament content. So far everything has been progressing faster than we expected, so my educated prediction is....

U10 elimination chapter
U6 elimination chapter
U3 and U4
U11 chapter
U11chapter
Finale

So 6 chapters. Maybe 5.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

User avatar
batistabus
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1650
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Western Massachusetts

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sun May 20, 2018 11:32 pm

KuririnNoKotoKa wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Seems more like Toyotaro just wants to rush to the good stuff rather than write an entertaining story.
He did the exact same thing by exposition dumping the first third of the Future Trunks arc to rush to the fights and dragging the climax to ridiculous degrees.

Are you surprised?
It seems like some of you still don't understand the format of this tournament, or Super as a whole, so let me know if you find this helpful.

On misunderstanding what Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super is:
(spoilered because this is sort of a tangential conversation)
[spoiler]When Akira Toriyama finished writing the Dragon Ball manga, he was happy where things had ended. He had developed all of the major character arcs he was interested in developing. The only reason that DBS exists at all is because Toriyama didn't want to stand by idly as he watched his work continue to be bastardized by the powers that be. Dragon Ball Evolution was the final straw.

When he decided to revisit the series, he continued the story directly after the defeat of Majin Boo but before the 10 year gap resulting in the encounter with Oob. Because of this, no matter what happened in his new stories, every thing and everybody needed to be preserved at the end of it all.

Even before Dragon Ball Evolution came out, he wrote an outline for the JSAT 2008 special. It's a fun, light-hearted tale that even the narrator admits is "a sad villains story about an evil menace that failed to register in public memory...simply because it appeared just a little too late in time." That right there says it all, and that applies to Super as well.

For Battle of Gods, we get an adversary that isn't truly evil. The conflict is resolved because he likes Earth's food and he has found himself sufficiently entertained. The atmosphere is tense at time, but the tone remains light-hearted. Due to the earthquake that had recently devastated Japan, Toriyama even requested that buildings not be destroyed in the climactic battle.

Next, we have the return of Freeza. While he is sinister indeed, he is no match for the combined efforts of Goku and Vegeta. He refuses to reform, and is quickly defeated. Like Abo and Cado, his return occurred just a little too late in time.

Okay, Toriyama has produced 3 stories that didn't deal with heavy themes and resolved quickly. Once Super started, we received two different takes on Tori's outline. Toei's priority was creating a series that would excite children and sell merchandise. Toyotaro's priority was and is staying true to the work of his role-model and not disappointing fans. Let's see how that affected what came afterwards.

The Universe 7 vs Universe 6 tournament has incredibly low stakes. Toriyama decided that if Universe 7 loses, the Earth is not destroyed. Nobody else in the universe is affected. This is a plot point present in both versions. How did Toyotaro tell this story? He kept things snappy and fun, but never made things seem more dire than the premise warranted. The payoff was focused on character interactions and figuring out gimmicks. What did Toei do? They escalated the power and stakes so high that Goku had a less than 10% chance of surviving the Kaioken. Toytaro stayed true to the spirit of Toriyama's outline, while Toei felt the need to "enhance" it. Toei took a direction that they thought would be more profitable, and they didn't care about whatever narrative issues they would create along the way.

While the stakes of failure were certainly higher in the Future Trunks arc, the adversaries ultimately weren't. Had Goku and Vegeta teamed up, they would have been able to defeat Black and Zamasu easily. These guys ultimately posed so little of a threat that Toriyama didn't even include Vegetto in his original outline. Again, of course, Toei jacked everything up to make things seem more "epic". Toyotaro included Vegetto as to not disappoint fan expectations, but contrasted Toei's version by keeping things reasonable and consistent.

Finally, we have the Universe Survival Arc. While Universe 7's Human Level is low, the strength of their average fighter is much higher than any other universe. This results in most other fighters becoming fodder, with the true focus being on defeating Jiren. We know everything will be okay in the end, so the real appeal of this arc comes in the form of - like with the Universe 6 tournament - gimmicks and character interactions. I'm not going to bother explaining how Toei and Toyotaro diverged again, because it's the same as above.

I cannot overstate how much that the stakes of DBS should be put into perspective. It is indisputably the B-side to the original Dragon Ball story. While we know everybody will be okay in the end, that doesn't mean the ride can't be entertaining. We've still got the characters, the clever twists, the action, and the humor. I'm not saying that zero character development occurs in Super, but by the time it begins, most of these characters have already completed their major arcs in life. The most development we get is from new characters, like Cabba and Zamasu, or by exploring development that we were left with in DB, like with Vegeta and No.17. Not every arc in Super has to have the biggest stakes, and not every arc is going to have as much emotional impact as the original Dragon Ball manga. That was never Toriyama's intention. We're just lucky to get to spend more time with these characters. If Super ends up a fun ride with the charm of the original series, it has succeeded in what it set out to do.[/spoiler]

On the Universe Survival Arc:

Before I get into the specifics of this arc, let me go into the basic format for an Akira Toriyama Dragon Ball tournament. What we see is 4 basic match-up archetypes:

-Our hero greatly outclasses the opponent. This is sometimes played for laughs.
-Our hero has to figure out the opponent's gimmick. This gimmick is extremely strong when you haven't figured it out, but simple to win against once you do.
-The adversary crushes the hero's ally. This is used to build up the adversary for when our hero ultimately has to face them.
-Our hero and the adversary have a contentious martial arts battle. This is typically reserved for the final match of the tournament, or to flesh out an existing rivalry.

In the original Dragon Ball manga, these types of matches would last from one-to-several chapters. Because the match-ups often involve martial artists who respect the art and one-another, the one-on-one format allows characters to stand around and talk to some extent. While characters want to win, losing isn't the end of the world.

Now let's look at the Tournament of Power. You have 80 fighters who:

-don't know each other for the most part and don't have the luxury of becoming too emotionally invested in their opponents
-will die along with everyone that they love if they don't win
-are trying to eliminate their opponents as quickly as possible due to a time limit
-are trying to preserve stamina
-will be eliminated if they let their guard down for too long
-can be easily eliminated by a surprise attack or a gimmick even if they aren't messing around or are stronger than their opponent
-can only discover the key to defeating a gimmick after somebody has already been defeated by it

You can't get away with a Western stand-off in this scenario. If you do take the time to develop all of these different characters, the tournament ceases to feel like a battle royale (like in the anime). The time needed to develop everyone is either impossible to accommodate, or the process invalidates the tournament as a timed free-for-all.

Aside from these hectic encounters that are all being crammed together one-after-another due to the nature of the premise, there are also several established threads that will continue to be developed throughout the tournament. Aside from winning, in the manga we have:

1. Goku wants to reach the next level and defeat Jiren.
2. Vegeta wants to show that he's stronger than Goku.
3. No.17 isn't messing around. He wants to eliminate as many people as quickly as possible so he can return to his job. His unlimited stamina helps him go all-out all of the time, which would be impossible for other characters (Frost).
4. Is Freeza with us or against us? What will happen to him after the tournament?
5. The Universe 6 Saiyans want to get stronger.
6. Jiren isn't messing around. He is much stronger than everybody else. He's doing his best to ensure that his teammates are not eliminated as well.

Aside from the threads present in this chapter (1, 2, 3 and 6), there are several "moments" that occur. These include:

-Overcoming Botamo's gimmick.
-No.18 overpowering Ribrianne and co. Comedy ensues.
-Overcoming the invisible warrior gimmick.
-Overcoming the small warrior gimmick.
-Smaller skirmishes that add to the hectic nature of the setting.

Again, all of these "moments" might justify their own chapter/episode in a different setting, but due to the inherent pace and unpredictability of a battle royale, they are all crammed together into frantic scrambles for survival. Which of these plot points could reasonably have been developed further while adhering to the format without resulting in needless padding? In fact, most of those points wouldn't need development even outside of the ToP format. Should it really take more than a moment to figure out that you should be sensing ki, or how to defeat Botamo again? Because these moments occur so sporadically and resolve quickly, the author's development of the gimmicks doesn't need to be quite so robust, either. Why do characters that are ultimately too weak to have an impact on the battle warrant more than they're getting? Those who are unable to problem solve quickly are swiftly eliminated in this tournament, and the opportunity to learn must inherently come from another character's defeat.

A TON of things happened this chapter, all with a reasonable amount of page time. There are bunch of little challenges and payoffs, all occurring while the threads that will run throughout the tournament continue to be developed. Not every character is going to get the spot light, and most of them don't deserve it. Toyotaro's ToP flows appropriately for a battle royale (in stark contrast to the anime). Pulling off so many things at once is a daunting challenge, and Toyotaro deserves credit for balancing everything so well.

If things feel very rushed and hectic, that's exactly the point. If a battle royale isn't your favorite premise in the history of Dragon Ball, that's totally reasonable. It's not mine. That being said, I don't expect every arc of Super to be my favorite thing that ever came out of Dragon Ball. I'm here for a good time with that patented Toriyama flavor. If I want super high stakes, I'll re-read the original manga. As long as the characters are themselves, the pacing doesn't drag, the humor feels right, the plot is mostly consistent, and it maintains the more subtle qualities that set Dragon Ball apart from other works, what more can you ask for?

User avatar
prince212
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 790
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: wild west

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Mon May 21, 2018 12:39 am

Analytical Delusion wrote:So, how many more chapters do you guys think we'll have in this arc (including post-tournament wish/wrap up stuff), based on the pace so far?
I think 7 more chapters will be fine , ending December 21st .
- u10 , u2 out
-u4 out
- u3 out
- u6 out
- u 11 big fight
- u 11 big fight
- end
More than that implies more content with is good , but imo is more important to start creating new content , don’t know if manga is gonna show the future movie content or it’s just gonna continue itself , it’s just my wish .
Reading most of the opinions in the forums looks like not so many people is happy with this manga draw by toyotaro, but at this point is he or none .
This arc it’s not easy and it’s not easy all the conditions to draw it . I think he deserves some freedom being ahead so we can read it out of comparison
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

SuperDragoon
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:27 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SuperDragoon » Mon May 21, 2018 2:22 am

batistabus wrote:
KuririnNoKotoKa wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Seems more like Toyotaro just wants to rush to the good stuff rather than write an entertaining story.
He did the exact same thing by exposition dumping the first third of the Future Trunks arc to rush to the fights and dragging the climax to ridiculous degrees.

Are you surprised?
It seems like some of you still don't understand the format of this tournament, or Super as a whole, so let me know if you find this helpful.

On misunderstanding what Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super is:
(spoilered because this is sort of a tangential conversation)
[spoiler]When Akira Toriyama finished writing the Dragon Ball manga, he was happy where things had ended. He had developed all of the major character arcs he was interested in developing. The only reason that DBS exists at all is because Toriyama didn't want to stand by idly as he watched his work continue to be bastardized by the powers that be. Dragon Ball Evolution was the final straw.

When he decided to revisit the series, he continued the story directly after the defeat of Majin Boo but before the 10 year gap resulting in the encounter with Oob. Because of this, no matter what happened in his new stories, every thing and everybody needed to be preserved at the end of it all.

Even before Dragon Ball Evolution came out, he wrote an outline for the JSAT 2008 special. It's a fun, light-hearted tale that even the narrator admits is "a sad villains story about an evil menace that failed to register in public memory...simply because it appeared just a little too late in time." That right there says it all, and that applies to Super as well.

For Battle of Gods, we get an adversary that isn't truly evil. The conflict is resolved because he likes Earth's food and he has found himself sufficiently entertained. The atmosphere is tense at time, but the tone remains light-hearted. Due to the earthquake that had recently devastated Japan, Toriyama even requested that buildings not be destroyed in the climactic battle.

Next, we have the return of Freeza. While he is sinister indeed, he is no match for the combined efforts of Goku and Vegeta. He refuses to reform, and is quickly defeated. Like Abo and Cado, his return occurred just a little too late in time.

Okay, Toriyama has produced 3 stories that didn't deal with heavy themes and resolved quickly. Once Super started, we received two different takes on Tori's outline. Toei's priority was creating a series that would excite children and sell merchandise. Toyotaro's priority was and is staying true to the work of his role-model and not disappointing fans. Let's see how that affected what came afterwards.

The Universe 7 vs Universe 6 tournament has incredibly low stakes. Toriyama decided that if Universe 7 loses, the Earth is not destroyed. Nobody else in the universe is affected. This is a plot point present in both versions. How did Toyotaro tell this story? He kept things snappy and fun, but never made things seem more dire than the premise warranted. The payoff was focused on character interactions and figuring out gimmicks. What did Toei do? They escalated the power and stakes so high that Goku had a less than 10% chance of surviving the Kaioken. Toytaro stayed true to the spirit of Toriyama's outline, while Toei felt the need to "enhance" it. Toei took a direction that they thought would be more profitable, and they didn't care about whatever narrative issues they would create along the way.

While the stakes of failure were certainly higher in the Future Trunks arc, the adversaries ultimately weren't. Had Goku and Vegeta teamed up, they would have been able to defeat Black and Zamasu easily. These guys ultimately posed so little of a threat that Toriyama didn't even include Vegetto in his original outline. Again, of course, Toei jacked everything up to make things seem more "epic". Toyotaro included Vegetto as to not disappoint fan expectations, but contrasted Toei's version by keeping things reasonable and consistent.

Finally, we have the Universe Survival Arc. While Universe 7's Human Level is low, the strength of their average fighter is much higher than any other universe. This results in most other fighters becoming fodder, with the true focus being on defeating Jiren. We know everything will be okay in the end, so the real appeal of this arc comes in the form of - like with the Universe 6 tournament - gimmicks and character interactions. I'm not going to bother explaining how Toei and Toyotaro diverged again, because it's the same as above.

I cannot overstate how much that the stakes of DBS should be put into perspective. It is indisputably the B-side to the original Dragon Ball story. While we know everybody will be okay in the end, that doesn't mean the ride can't be entertaining. We've still got the characters, the clever twists, the action, and the humor. I'm not saying that zero character development occurs in Super, but by the time it begins, most of these characters have already completed their major arcs in life. The most development we get is from new characters, like Cabba and Zamasu, or by exploring development that we were left with in DB, like with Vegeta and No.17. Not every arc in Super has to have the biggest stakes, and not every arc is going to have as much emotional impact as the original Dragon Ball manga. That was never Toriyama's intention. We're just lucky to get to spend more time with these characters. If Super ends up a fun ride with the charm of the original series, it has succeeded in what it set out to do.[/spoiler]

On the Universe Survival Arc:

Before I get into the specifics of this arc, let me go into the basic format for an Akira Toriyama Dragon Ball tournament. What we see is 4 basic match-up archetypes:

-Our hero greatly outclasses the opponent. This is sometimes played for laughs.
-Our hero has to figure out the opponent's gimmick. This gimmick is extremely strong when you haven't figured it out, but simple to win against once you do.
-The adversary crushes the hero's ally. This is used to build up the adversary for when our hero ultimately has to face them.
-Our hero and the adversary have a contentious martial arts battle. This is typically reserved for the final match of the tournament, or to flesh out an existing rivalry.

In the original Dragon Ball manga, these types of matches would last from one-to-several chapters. Because the match-ups often involve martial artists who respect the art and one-another, the one-on-one format allows characters to stand around and talk to some extent. While characters want to win, losing isn't the end of the world.

Now let's look at the Tournament of Power. You have 80 fighters who:

-don't know each other for the most part and don't have the luxury of becoming too emotionally invested in their opponents
-will die along with everyone that they love if they don't win
-are trying to eliminate their opponents as quickly as possible due to a time limit
-are trying to preserve stamina
-will be eliminated if they let their guard down for too long
-can be easily eliminated by a surprise attack or a gimmick even if they aren't messing around or are stronger than their opponent
-can only discover the key to defeating a gimmick after somebody has already been defeated by it

You can't get away with a Western stand-off in this scenario. If you do take the time to develop all of these different characters, the tournament ceases to feel like a battle royale (like in the anime). The time needed to develop everyone is either impossible to accommodate, or the process invalidates the tournament as a timed free-for-all.

Aside from these hectic encounters that are all being crammed together one-after-another due to the nature of the premise, there are also several established threads that will continue to be developed throughout the tournament. Aside from winning, in the manga we have:

1. Goku wants to reach the next level and defeat Jiren.
2. Vegeta wants to show that he's stronger than Goku.
3. No.17 isn't messing around. He wants to eliminate as many people as quickly as possible so he can return to his job. His unlimited stamina helps him go all-out all of the time, which would be impossible for other characters (Frost).
4. Is Freeza with us or against us? What will happen to him after the tournament?
5. The Universe 6 Saiyans want to get stronger.
6. Jiren isn't messing around. He is much stronger than everybody else. He's doing his best to ensure that his teammates are not eliminated as well.

Aside from the threads present in this chapter (1, 2, 3 and 6), there are several "moments" that occur. These include:

-Overcoming Botamo's gimmick.
-No.18 overpowering Ribrianne and co. Comedy ensues.
-Overcoming the invisible warrior gimmick.
-Overcoming the small warrior gimmick.
-Smaller skirmishes that add to the hectic nature of the setting.

Again, all of these "moments" might justify their own chapter/episode in a different setting, but due to the inherent pace and unpredictability of a battle royale, they are all crammed together into frantic scrambles for survival. Which of these plot points could reasonably have been developed further while adhering to the format without resulting in needless padding? In fact, most of those points wouldn't need development even outside of the ToP format. Should it really take more than a moment to figure out that you should be sensing ki, or how to defeat Botamo again? Because these moments occur so sporadically and resolve quickly, the author's development of the gimmicks doesn't need to be quite so robust, either. Why do characters that are ultimately too weak to have an impact on the battle warrant more than they're getting? Those who are unable to problem solve quickly are swiftly eliminated in this tournament, and the opportunity to learn must inherently come from another character's defeat.

A TON of things happened this chapter, all with a reasonable amount of page time. There are bunch of little challenges and payoffs, all occurring while the threads that will run throughout the tournament continue to be developed. Not every character is going to get the spot light, and most of them don't deserve it. Toyotaro's ToP flows appropriately for a battle royale (in stark contrast to the anime). Pulling off so many things at once is a daunting challenge, and Toyotaro deserves credit for balancing everything so well.

If things feel very rushed and hectic, that's exactly the point. If a battle royale isn't your favorite premise in the history of Dragon Ball, that's totally reasonable. It's not mine. That being said, I don't expect every arc of Super to be my favorite thing that ever came out of Dragon Ball. I'm here for a good time with that patented Toriyama flavor. If I want super high stakes, I'll re-read the original manga. As long as the characters are themselves, the pacing doesn't drag, the humor feels right, the plot is mostly consistent, and it maintains the more subtle qualities that set Dragon Ball apart from other works, what more can you ask for?
Jeez louise.

I dont want to have to argue that this seems like pandering to the manga but it REALLY does sound like you just have favoritism towards it. As someone who appreciates the moments in the anime and hates the rushed work of the manga, I cannot agree with the notion that people not enjoying this chapter, or manga as a whole, just dont "understand it". I fundamentally disagree with the idea a large tournament CANT give focus to moments or that characters "dont deserve" the time. Both points are arbitrary limitations to limit screentime to who the viewer decides is important. I'm sure some would argue the U6 Saiyans dont deserve screentime and that they should have gotten eliminated over Hit.
The moments and characters you criticize are exactly why I favor the DBS anime over the manga. The manga feels soulless to me. I'm not enjoying it anywhere near as much as I did with the anime. I certainly dont think it's just because I dont understand the manga.

User avatar
TheDipDap1234
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:56 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheDipDap1234 » Mon May 21, 2018 2:34 am

Miracles wrote:
Why are people inflamed that 18 got ousted? Her fights in the anime were pretty weak and you could tell they were practically filler. She almost lost to a blind raccoon.
Her fight with Ribrianne was one of the best animated and character driven fights of the whole tournament, but sure let's say it was weak for whatever reason. Her other fights were team-ups. She teamed up with Krillin to eliminate Shosa, and teamed up with 17 to eliminate Viara, both of which were cool. All of her other fights either weren't seen (Sorrel) or were mostly comedic and not serious (Cocotte and Tupper). She also never lost to a blind racoon.

I'm mad 18 got eliminated because it felt like she had no purpose in this arc. Zero interactions with 17 or Goku, 0 teamups, 0 anything. What was even the point of bringing her back if all she will do is eliminate 2 random fodders?
Gowasu's number 1 fan.

Post Reply