"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue May 22, 2018 9:19 am

Bergamo wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Jiren didn't just eliminate one fighter, he eliminated Hit. Beside this, the tournament isn't about eliminations. Jiren has established his superiority over Goku as a fighter, and not a single member of his universe has been eliminated. That doesn't make him look bad.
Jiren can beat anyone in 1 punch so him running around for 15 minutes and fighting doesn't make him look good when he has only 1 elimination. In the anime he just stood there or was meditiating as he wasn't needed that makes him more of a threat and isn't wasting energy.
Jiren said that he didn't want to be responsible for other universe's erasure, so of course his focus will be more on defense than on offense.
That means nothing as he entered the tournament to win and there is only one way to win.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Tue May 22, 2018 9:42 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:
Jiren can beat anyone in 1 punch so him running around for 15 minutes and fighting doesn't make him look good when he has only 1 elimination. In the anime he just stood there or was meditiating as he wasn't needed that makes him more of a threat and isn't wasting energy.
Jiren said that he didn't want to be responsible for other universe's erasure, so of course his focus will be more on defense than on offense.
That means nothing as he entered the tournament to win and there is only one way to win.
There are actually 2 ways to win. You can eliminate all of the competition, or your group can win by staying in the longest. Obviously Jiren's group is trying to win with numbers.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Tue May 22, 2018 9:54 am

batistabus wrote:In an arc full of great chapters, I was surprised that this one was one of my favorites.

Vegeta vs Toppo:

I've seen people describe this as character regression from Vegeta's "You're number 1, Kakarot!" moment. I suppose it is, but it's justifiable, and totally in line with Vegeta's role in Super. With the introduction of god ki, Vegeta was able to bridge that insurmountable gap between Goku and himself. Where before he was humbled and accepted his role, the chance to actually become the strongest in all universes is once again within his grasp. Let's not forget that Vegeta said he'd never fight again until he had an opportunity to match Goku. His determination to overpower Toppo with continuous, predictable kicks was a really cool moment.
I agree with you on this. In the anime he did seem like he regressed back to his Cell-Saga self. I found it odd he would deny giving energy for the spirit bomb, but Frieza would. I thought Vegeta had matured, but I suppose in both mediums, he really hasn't, probably only slightly in the manga. What I enjoyed the most about Manga Vegeta is how he was conversing with everyone as if they have truly become friends rather than constantly acting like a tsundere and a douche in the anime towards them. He finally seems more relaxed in the manga as he was trying to small talk with Gohan and 17.
No. 18 vs Ribrianne:

I was not a fan of the Magical Girl gag from the anime to begin with, and I feel like Ribriane really overstayed here welcome in that version. Here, I thought she was a really fun character. All of the gags landed for me, and I was pretty impressed by how well Toyotaro seems to have gotten a handle on Toriyama's comedic tone. He really nails it in the expressions. I love sexy Kuririn, and Beerus thinking Ribrianne is "kind of cute" is almost as good. Every time those characters interact, I get a huge kick out of it. Something about the way No. 18 was portrayed in the anime really rubbed me the wrong way, but she feels more authentic here. Maybe it's because she's so much less preachy.

No. 18's elimination pose was a great homage to the time she broke Vegeta's arm.
Agreed on 18 as well. I wish there was more to their fight and interaction though. Ribrianne did last longer than she needed to in the anime, but I think Ribrianne should have at least survived the attack from Gamisaras and fought on for her universe. I'm not really feeling that vibe in the manga's ToP. It's the same problem the anime had lacked as well. The arc feels less of a Universal Survival Arc and more of a Tournament where everyone just wants to have fun.

It really sadden's me how quick these characters are dropping off the tournament without leaving any lasting impressions. I understand that this is supposed to be a battle royal and characters can't just talk while there are dozens of fights going on as well, but we're not getting much of the entertainment factor from Toyotaro like we had gotten with the previous arcs. The U6 Arc is looking much better than the ToP in terms of entertainment. The characters we were introduced to in the arc had unique fighting styles, strategies, powers, etc., but Toyotaro isn't expressing much creativity this arc. Every elimination feels so generic and repetitive. I really love the manga's interpretations of the previous arcs, but Toyotaro hasn't been putting his A-Game into this arc at all imo.
Invisible Warrior and Small Warrior

The way Gamisaras comes out of nowhere and starts eliminating people left-and-right is really effective. It catches the reader off guard just as much as the fighters. Once Piccolo defeats Gamisaras, but immediately senses another warrior, it's totally reasonable that he wouldn't be able to figure out the situation in time, regardless of his enhanced hearing. I really wasn't expecting to see him out so early, and I'm really interested in seeing what happens with the Universe 6 Namekians now. No. 17's bio-modifications logically extend to his sight and hearing, so his ability to take down Damon works well. The fact that Jiren gets nervous around such a potentially powerful gimmick helps humanize him a lot.

I also really like that Toyotaro isn't afraid to change up the character designs in this tournament when appropriate for the plot. I'm talking about No. 17 brushing his hair behind his ears & or Hit taking his kilt off. These things look kind of odd, but they help ground the situation and make these characters feel like more than plastic dolls.

I really don't have any major complaints for this chapter. I'm so impressed with how well so many plot points were balanced. The comedy was great, the battles were chaotic, and things are moving along at an exciting pace. I thought it was kind of silly how No. 17 has apparently gotten so strong simply by protecting his island, but the artificial humans are such strange beings that it's easy enough to laugh it off.
I find the plot points to be incredibly unbalanced actually. Some scenes in this chapter we're incredibly unnecessary, such as Vegeta's fight with Toppo. This could have been used in a much separate chapter or Toyotaro could understand story boarding and panelling a bit better and shorten the amount of pages focusing on this one small, insignificant fight. It annoys me how much how the way he panels is trying to present a fluid motion of movement as if the reader is watching an anime. I also believe the invisible warriors should have been hinted on earlier in the chapter.

My Interpretation of the Chapter
The chapter begins with the standoff between Goku and Jiren in preparation of Round 2 of their battle. The Peanut Gallery then shift their attention to a brief altercation involving Vegeta and Toppo and a worried Dyspo. Warriors of U10 challenge U7, but 4 of them they are defeated easily, leaving 3 left. During the fight between U7 and U10, one of the U10 Fighters is eliminated by an unusual attack. Then U10 would question what occurred, putting U7 on edge as well, this builds up the tension. Then the fight shifts from them to Ribrianne vs Android 18. Keep the gag which was quite funny, but at least provide more creative techniques.

Ribrianne and the Kamikaze Fireballs should have overpowered 18 to the point where she felt like she was going to be eliminated, only to have Krillin shout, causing Ribrianne's attack to miss completely and hit the Kamikaze Fireballs instead. With 18 now free from their clutches, she then overpowers Ribrianne who tries to keep her guard up but struggles after admiring and becoming distracted Krillin's "handsome features." The fight would then shift back to 17, Gohan, and Piccolo going up against the remaining U10 Fighters. During the fight, one of the U7 Warriors could have been knocked away by the unknown force. Both U10 and U7 try to keep their guards up against this force by blasting the arena, hoping to hit the invisible warrior. This assault forces them to make haste and leave. This invisible warrior notices 18 and Ribrianne fighting and decides to take advantage of them being preoccupied.

18 corners Ribrianne after overpowering her and informs her she could either be eliminated by her or take the plunge herself, but the Kamikaze Fireballs arrive to encourage Ribrianne to keep fighting. Ribrianne's comrades ignite her fighting spirit and prepare to retaliate against 18. 18 then prepares to blast them off the arena but is then eliminated by Gamisaras. The Kamikaze Fireballs and the Peanut Gallery question what had just happened. The Fireballs are then knocked out 1 by 1 and Ribrianne would be the last one standing. Ribrianne would then make such a boisterous speech to the invisible warrior in the name of love that it would attract the attention of the U7 and U10 Fighters. They would realize how much of a threat this invisible fighter is and try to eliminate him as Ribrianne struggles to deflect their attacks, demonstrating her prowess and drive to protect her universe. Gohan and Piccolo would break from their fights with the U10 warriors and would work together to eliminate the invisible warrior, only to realize, there is another invisible warrior as they eliminate two of the U10 Fighters, leaving Obuni as the last warrior of U10.

Ribrianne is then knocked away by the invisible warrior with a punch that leaves her unable to move. Piccolo arrives to intervene and informs Gohan to track them by sensing their presence. Piccolo identifies the invisible warrior (Gamisaras) through his ki and eliminates him. Piccolo can sense and hear the other invisible warrior and questions their movements since they are different from the first invisible fighter. Piccolo senses their attack from behind and attempts to retaliate, but misses the attack. Piccolo, left confused, is then knocked out by the invisible fighter (Damon).

Gohan, 17 and Obuni are then left to deal with Damon themselves. 17 informs Gohan that he is unable to sense the warrior like him. Gohan warns 17 that Damon is behind him. 17 guards himself from Damon's attack and is pushed towards Jiren and Goku during their battle. 17 informs Goku of a invisible warrior, which Jiren overhears and becomes concerned about. 17 informs Goku that 18 and Piccolo were eliminated by these invisible warriors. Piccolo states that the 2nd invisible warrior may be tiny, as his movements were incredibly faint. Goku claims that Piccolo could have used his hears to track the opponent due to his Super hearing, but 17 claims he can do the same well, using his experience with animals and poachers on his island as a reference.

17 puts his hair behind his ears to listen for the movements of the minuscule warrior. 17 identifies the tiny bug warrior, Damon. 17 attempts to blast him, but Damon easily dodges. 17 persists on shooting Damon away but he proceeds to escape. Dyspo arrives to inform Jiren of Toppo being attacked by Vegeta and asks for assistance. Damon takes advantage of their conversation and attempts to knock out Dyspo. Jiren then catches Damon in the palm of his hand with ease. 17 and Goku admire his incredible reflexes. Damon escapes Jiren's clutches and tries to retaliate, but Jiren swats him away as a mere fly.

After dealing with the invisible warrior with relative ease, Jiren leaves with Dyspo to assist Toppo. Before he leaves, he informs Son Goku their battle is not over yet. 17 informs Goku they lost two fighters from these invisible warriors, but that Jiren deal with them very easily. He questions Goku's ability to defeat him, only for him state that he is unsure himself. The chapter ends with everyone questioning how many warriors are left, only for the Grand Priest to provide a chart detailing which combatants are left from each universe.

(In my interpretation, Ribrianne and Botamo are not eliminated.)

Why have I made these changes?
- The intervention for the invisible U4 warriors felt rather unusual and didn't flow well with the rest of the narrative. It almost felt as awkward as Episode 119 had Toyotaro handled this chapter much worse.
-The lack of tension Toyotaro tends to establish within some of these chapters.
-Putting the new characters in a much better light compared to how Toyotaro did. Their presence felt very lackluster.
- I believe Ribrianne should get more screen time. She'd be great for several gags and could use at least one more chapter, as well as demonstrate the characterization of U2 with her character.
- Botamo could be saved for later. The chapter suffers from a variety of fights focused on for far too long.
- I also had Jiren deal with Damon instead to demonstrate his capabilities to defend his team. We haven't been shown how he defends them, we are just told that he assists them. A simple case of show, don't tell.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Tue May 22, 2018 10:13 am

Toyotaro is the greatest artist of our generation.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Tue May 22, 2018 10:19 am

Doctor. wrote:Toyotaro is the greatest artist of our generation.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Cool, bro.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RedHeat » Tue May 22, 2018 10:23 am

Doctor. wrote:Toyotaro is the greatest artist of our generation.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Finally, the truth has come into fruition.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Tue May 22, 2018 10:30 am

Doctor. wrote:Toyotaro is the greatest artist of our generation.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Is he going to be in serious trouble for this?
Kind of worried right now. Hopefully on his part, it's just a home.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue May 22, 2018 10:36 am

Exline wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Toyotaro is the greatest artist of our generation.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Is he going to be in serious trouble for this?
Kind of worried right now. Hopefully on his part, it's just a home.
Lol no. It was a collaborative piece, so chances are he didn't even come up with the pose. Then again, Toyo is a fan of the Marvel films. Even if he blatantly stole it himself, poses aren't copyrighted.
Last edited by batistabus on Tue May 22, 2018 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Tue May 22, 2018 10:37 am

Exline wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Toyotaro is the greatest artist of our generation.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Is he going to be in serious trouble for this?
Kind of worried right now. Hopefully on his part, it's just a home.
it would be pretty funny that he would be in trouble cause of this, while the Rurouni Kenshin pedophile can continue with his work.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ToshioWrites » Tue May 22, 2018 10:52 am

The tax fraud Toriyama with his art fraud pupil Toyo. They are made for each other

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Tue May 22, 2018 10:54 am

Exline wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Toyotaro is the greatest artist of our generation.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Is he going to be in serious trouble for this?
Kind of worried right now. Hopefully on his part, it's just a home.
Yamamoto got fired when he did the musical equivalent.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue May 22, 2018 10:59 am

Doctor. wrote:
Exline wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Toyotaro is the greatest artist of our generation.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Is he going to be in serious trouble for this?
Kind of worried right now. Hopefully on his part, it's just a home.
Yamamoto got fired when he did the musical equivalent.
Music is copyrighted, poses aren’t.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Tue May 22, 2018 11:01 am

Meshack wrote:Music is copyrighted, poses aren’t.
It's plagiarism all the same. Yamamoto didn't copy entire songs, he took chords. The only excuse Toyotaro has here is that he changed the hand for the V-Jump cover after his traced sketch.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue May 22, 2018 11:04 am

Fans: THE ANIMATED VERSION DOESNT FEEL LIKE ITS A BATTLE ROYALE OF 80 PEOPLE

Also Fans: GOKOU AND HIS FRIENDS ARE DOING EVERYTHING

Toyotarou: I’m making it feel like a battle royale and give other characters their time to shine in the comic

Fans: GOKOU AND HIS FRIENDS ARENT GETTING ENOUGH PANELS

Also Fans: PEOPLE ARE LOSING TOO QUICK

C’mon people. What do you want?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue May 22, 2018 11:04 am

Doctor. wrote:
Meshack wrote:Music is copyrighted, poses aren’t.
It's plagiarism all the same. Yamamoto didn't copy entire songs, he took chords. The only excuse Toyotaro has here is that he changed the hand for the V-Jump cover after his traced sketch.
I don’t see a problem really. Mr. Horikoshi does it all the time

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Tue May 22, 2018 11:05 am

Doctor. wrote:
Exline wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Toyotaro is the greatest artist of our generation.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Is he going to be in serious trouble for this?
Kind of worried right now. Hopefully on his part, it's just a home.
Yamamoto got fired when he did the musical equivalent.
They're not comparable. He'll be fine. Sucks that he traced though.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Tue May 22, 2018 11:08 am

Meshack wrote:I don’t see a problem really. Mr. Horikoshi does it all the time
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, but two wrongs don't make a right.
OLKv3 wrote:They're not comparable. He'll be fine. Sucks that he traced though.
I'm sure he'll be fine. I'm saying he should be punished in some way.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue May 22, 2018 11:09 am

OLKv3 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Exline wrote:
Is he going to be in serious trouble for this?
Kind of worried right now. Hopefully on his part, it's just a home.
Yamamoto got fired when he did the musical equivalent.
They're not comparable. He'll be fine. Sucks that he traced though.
Yeah. People just don’t like him and will try to find every reason to get rid of him. Sucks, I know.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue May 22, 2018 11:11 am

Doctor. wrote:
Meshack wrote:I don’t see a problem really. Mr. Horikoshi does it all the time
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, but two wrongs don't make a right.
OLKv3 wrote:They're not comparable. He'll be fine. Sucks that he traced though.
I'm sure he'll be fine. I'm saying he should be punished in some way.
Kohei Horikoshi, the creator of the comic My Hero Academia. A lot of things in there is basically from other comics.

How do you punish him?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Tue May 22, 2018 11:12 am

Meshack wrote:Kohei Horikoshi, the creator of the comic My Hero Academia. A lot of things in there is basically from other comics.

How do you punish him?
You mean in terms of story or in terms of art? Because MHA doesn't copy any book's story. If it plagiarizes art, then I don't know, but that's a big problem in itself.

Not up to me to decide.

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