"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:21 am

supercat wrote:
Saiga wrote:The initial comparison was 'he's around as tough as Cell, but not a big deal' and later corrects himself by saying Dabra is better than he thought.

I don't think Super Perfect Cell has been so thoroughly surpassed that Goku and Vegeta could talk about him so casually - especially when neither of them have confirmed that the other is capable of Super Saiyan 2.
But what would be the point of comparing two characters when one isn't even at full power? It's just wouldn't be an accurate comparison in my opinion.
Well Goku was dead when it was super perfect Cell, and Super perfect Cell never actually fought, he really only used one kamehameha. And if I remember correctly what made Goku say Dabura may be more dangerous than he thought was because of his magic, not that he had a higher power level than he initially thought. It is possible Dabura is stronger than super perfect Cell, but I doubt it. Maybe if you include his stone spit and other magic he is more dangerous.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:41 am

supercat wrote:
Saiga wrote:The initial comparison was 'he's around as tough as Cell, but not a big deal' and later corrects himself by saying Dabra is better than he thought.

I don't think Super Perfect Cell has been so thoroughly surpassed that Goku and Vegeta could talk about him so casually - especially when neither of them have confirmed that the other is capable of Super Saiyan 2.
But what would be the point of comparing two characters when one isn't even at full power? It's just wouldn't be an accurate comparison in my opinion.
It's literally not meant to be an accurate comparison. He's not saying Dabra is exactly as strong as Cell, he's just giving an off-hand reference to where-abouts Dabra lies. Lying somewhere on the spectrum of Perfect Cell fits that.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:25 am

When this thread had became a "Super Saiyan 2 or not" thing? I mean isn't just easy to agreed that Toyotaro is a mess trying to distinguish these transformations?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:34 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:When this thread had became a "Super Saiyan 2 or not" thing? I mean isn't just easy to agreed that Toyotaro is a mess trying to distinguish these transformations?
Toyotaro is perfect at distinguishing transformations though. Although the lightning effect can provide a general indicator of which form is used on most occasions, it certainly isn't a trait that's exclusive to Super Saiyan 2.

Also, the current debate is actually related to the original manga's portrayal of that form, not Super's.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:52 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Well Goku was dead when it was super perfect Cell, and Super perfect Cell never actually fought, he really only used one kamehameha. And if I remember correctly what made Goku say Dabura may be more dangerous than he thought was because of his magic, not that he had a higher power level than he initially thought. It is possible Dabura is stronger than super perfect Cell, but I doubt it. Maybe if you include his stone spit and other magic he is more dangerous.
Being dead doesn't stop someone from sensing ki levels and as I recall Goku said he sensed Cell was using a full power Kamehameha before Gohan did the beam struggle which fits in line with Cell's own admission he's done playing around and will seriously end it now. Keep in mind Goku compared Cell to Dabura right in front of Vegeta and Gohan who didn't disagree in the slightest with Goku remark.

Once the fighting goes under way Goku states Dabura is far stronger than he originally thought (on par with Super Perfect Cell) which means even at levels lower than his kid self teen Gohan is still a good deal above Cell which fits in line with Vegeta saying a Cell tier or beyond opponent isn't much of a threat to them (Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku).
Saiga wrote:
supercat wrote:
Saiga wrote:The initial comparison was 'he's around as tough as Cell, but not a big deal' and later corrects himself by saying Dabra is better than he thought.

I don't think Super Perfect Cell has been so thoroughly surpassed that Goku and Vegeta could talk about him so casually - especially when neither of them have confirmed that the other is capable of Super Saiyan 2.
But what would be the point of comparing two characters when one isn't even at full power? It's just wouldn't be an accurate comparison in my opinion.
It's literally not meant to be an accurate comparison. He's not saying Dabra is exactly as strong as Cell, he's just giving an off-hand reference to where-abouts Dabra lies. Lying somewhere on the spectrum of Perfect Cell fits that.
That seems weird since Toriyama always does this to show the rate of improvement of characters now compared to their previous saga selves such as 23rd Budokai weighted clothing Goku = Piccolo Daimao Goku in speed, Raditz = Saibaimen, Qui = Vegeta (Saiyan Saga), Abo and Cado = Freeza (Namek Saga), so why is this somehow different when its Cell's turn to be used as an comparison with Dabura for the Buu Saga?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:22 pm

lord turbo wrote: Being dead doesn't stop someone from sensing ki levels and as I recall Goku said he sensed Cell was using a full power Kamehameha before Gohan did the beam struggle which fits in line with Cell's own admission he's done playing around and will seriously end it now. Keep in mind Goku compared Cell to Dabura right in front of Vegeta and Gohan who didn't disagree in the slightest with Goku remark.
Distance changes how much you feel someone's power. Only ssj3 Goku was felt on the world of the Kais.
Once the fighting goes under way Goku states Dabura is far stronger than he originally thought (on par with Super Perfect Cell) which means even at levels lower than his kid self teen Gohan is still a good deal above Cell which fits in line with Vegeta saying a Cell tier or beyond opponent isn't much of a threat to them (Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku).
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I remember Goku saying Dabura might have been more dangerous Han he thought, not that he was far stronger, but I could be wrong.
Saiga wrote:
supercat wrote:
But what would be the point of comparing two characters when one isn't even at full power? It's just wouldn't be an accurate comparison in my opinion.
It's literally not meant to be an accurate comparison. He's not saying Dabra is exactly as strong as Cell, he's just giving an off-hand reference to where-abouts Dabra lies. Lying somewhere on the spectrum of Perfect Cell fits that.
That seems weird since Toriyama always does this to show the rate of improvement of characters now compared to their previous saga selves such as 23rd Budokai weighted clothing Goku = Piccolo Daimao Goku in speed, Raditz = Saibaimen, Qui = Vegeta (Saiyan Saga), Abo and Cado = Freeza (Namek Saga), so why is this somehow different when its Cell's turn to be used as an comparison with Dabura for the Buu Saga?[/quote]

They don't have to be exactly the same, just the same tier. Just like how the saibamen was 1,200 but Raditz was 1,500. And Abo and Cado were first form Frieza tier, not final form.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:25 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:When this thread had became a "Super Saiyan 2 or not" thing? I mean isn't just easy to agreed that Toyotaro is a mess trying to distinguish these transformations?
People are talking about how strong Dabra is(not the topic but whatever) what thread are you looking at?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Analytical Delusion » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:10 pm

Love how Toyotaro drew Golden Freeza. Makes me wish he drew the Freeza arc (I know I've said this a dozen times in this thread; though I guess by omitting it, he's avoided the power scaling debacle that is 'Saiyan Beyond God'). He does seem like he's weaker in the manga than he was in the anime, which is a bit disappointing. He wasn't as strong as UI Goku on TV, but he was able to hang with a lot of the top tiers briefly at least.

As much as I love how kaio-ken blue was animated in the show, I really don't like it in-universe. The explanation was flimsy about why they couldn't use it with standard Super Saiyan forms, and it created giant power gaps. I would be a bit disappointed if we don't get to see UI Omen. Though I'm not sure that manga Jiren would stand by and let Goku charge up a genki dama. I also think it's unlikely we're going to see Blue Evolution from Vegeta, seemed like a Toei creation to me (as cool as it looked; though if it is in the manga, would like to read a more thorough explanation about what the hell it is). I'm 50/50 on whether we'll see Kefla (Kafla?) or tranformed Toppo.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:15 pm

Analytical Delusion wrote:Love how Toyotaro drew Golden Freeza. Makes me wish he drew the Freeza arc (I know I've said this a dozen times in this thread; though I guess by omitting it, he's avoided the power scaling debacle that is 'Saiyan Beyond God'). He does seem like he's weaker in the manga than he was in the anime, which is a bit disappointing. He wasn't as strong as UI Goku on TV, but he was able to hang with a lot of the top tiers briefly at least.

As much as I love how kaio-ken blue was animated in the show, I really don't like it in-universe. The explanation was flimsy about why they couldn't use it with standard Super Saiyan forms, and it created giant power gaps. I would be a bit disappointed if we don't get to see UI Omen. Though I'm not sure that manga Jiren would stand by and let Goku charge up a genki dama. I also think it's unlikely we're going to see Blue Evolution from Vegeta, seemed like a Toei creation to me (as cool as it looked; though if it is in the manga, would like to read a more thorough explanation about what the hell it is). I'm 50/50 on whether we'll see Kefla (Kafla?) or tranformed Toppo.
To be honest, its hard for me to see the anger people have onto the powerscaling in the manga if they base their expectations on the anime's which never made sense of its own to begin with.The Saiyan Beyond God base form as the anime handled it was just confusing, because then every character they fought after Beerus would have to be SSG level for it to make sense, then the SSB form would be their boost equal to what Super Saiyan was. Instead the anime makes weak characters seem unfathomably stronger than they should be simply by that "Beyond God" thing. Golden Freeza was just the wrench that made the powerscaling ridiculous from the start of Super's era already. Him being weaker doesn't make a difference to me. I could never tell how strong Freeza should be at all from the TOP anyway.

As for Jiren, he really shouldn't be as strong as the anime had him seem, though I really wish they would just establish that Jiren has UI to make it be what Goku needs to match him, because the amibuity of Jiren just bothered me like Silver age Superman. Not being one of those people that likes the think or boast that Jiren is just unbeatable, I would rather it make some tier clarity. In the anime it was clear Jiren had the same UI animations Goku did, but they never stated that it was. It would explain enough why Jiren is above the Gods (with just UI mastered on his end) and thats it.

As for SSBE, I'm not looking for it in the manga nor do I want it, because like SSRage it was clearly Toei invented. Thus why its cheap, barely makes sense to fit in, and has a terrible name alike. Toei should not invent new forms because unlike SS4, the current attempts they make are no better quality than the AF forms. I'm also hoping to not to see Kefla, because she really didnt have any importance to the plot but seemed just like something Toei wanted to show off. Yes, it gave Kale more growth but I never liked it that they were the only ones that got to use the potaras.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:28 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote: As for Jiren, he really shouldn't be as strong as the anime had him seem, though I really wish they would just establish that Jiren has UI to make it be what Goku needs to match him, because the amibuity of Jiren just bothered me like Silver age Superman. Not being one of those people that likes the think or boast that Jiren is just unbeatable, I would rather it make some tier clarity. In the anime it was clear Jiren had the same UI animations Goku did, but they never stated that it was. It would explain enough why Jiren is above the Gods (with just UI mastered on his end) and thats it.

As for SSBE, I'm not looking for it in the manga nor do I want it, because like SSRage it was clearly Toei invented. Thus why its cheap, barely makes sense to fit in, and has a terrible name alike. Toei should not invent new forms because unlike SS4, the current attempts they make are no better quality than the AF forms. I'm also hoping to not to see Kefla, because she really didnt have any importance to the plot but seemed just like something Toei wanted to show off. Yes, it gave Kale more growth but I never liked it that they were the only ones that got to use the potaras.
agree with this statements , Jiren without ultra-instinct just made u.i not that interesting if you put aside visual effects and consider that u.i doesn’t beat Jiren strength..
Vegeta evolution is not needed I.m.o , just gaining strength, skills is ok for me without “new names” or darker colors ...
Kefla .. you are right , she doesn’t have any importance in the plot unless they were thinking further after t.o.p , wasn’t bad to watch in the anime but seems useless to be done in the manga ...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:28 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Distance changes how much you feel someone's power. Only ssj3 Goku was felt on the world of the Kais.
Does it? Goku sensed King Kai's ki from Earth just fine, yet are you trying to claim he would have trouble sensing Super Perfect Cell (despite sensing he was using a full power Kamehameha) or SS2 Kid Gohan's ki despite it being the same "distance"?
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I remember Goku saying Dabura might have been more dangerous Han he thought, not that he was far stronger, but I could be wrong.
You can check Herms strength checker topic, its legit, Goku mentioned Dabura was far stronger than he thought (Super Perfect Cell) when he starts using magic.
They don't have to be exactly the same, just the same tier. Just like how the saibamen was 1,200 but Raditz was 1,500. And Abo and Cado were first form Frieza tier, not final form.
That's the point of comparisons in the Dragon Ball franchise, if such as such is on the same level as another than beating them would be more or less than same as beating the other guy's who is at similar levels. Toriyama in his memo mentiomed Raditz is slightly (keyword being slightly), superior to a Saibaimen which more or less means they have roughly the same level of power, overpowering a Saibaimen means you can overpower Raditz.

Abo and Cado were not stated to be first form Freeza level, just as strong as Freeza in general, if they were weaker than Freeza (Namek Saga) then Goku would have corrected Tarble which he didn't.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:50 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote: In the anime it was clear Jiren had the same UI animations Goku did, but they never stated that it was.
But they DID stated it.

He's Just Strong. Pure, unadulterated STRENGTH he did gain by relying only on himself.
It's how he works thematically in the anime: unlike Goku who relies on companions, transformations, forms, and techniques to increase his power beyond his base limit, Jiren is absolute MIGHT.
Even his Limit Break form isn't actually a Limit Break but unleashing power he wasn't using due psychological limits

His Limit Break aura might look like Ultra Instinct, but if it was related somebody would have said something.


Obviously, this doesn't necessarily apply on Manga SupermanJiren: him having a greater mastery of Ultra Instinct than Belmod, maybe an "almost mastery", would be quite fine

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:01 pm

lord turbo wrote: Does it? Goku sensed King Kai's ki from Earth just fine, yet are you trying to claim he would have trouble sensing Super Perfect Cell (despite sensing he was using a full power Kamehameha) or SS2 Kid Gohan's ki despite it being the same "distance"?
That's true, but does seem like distance plays at least a bit of a factor as Goku has flat out said people are too far to sense before, and in RoF they had to go full power for Goku to sense them, meaning amount of power is affected by distance.
Abo and Cado were not stated to be first form Freeza level, just as strong as Freeza in general, if they were weaker than Freeza (Namek Saga) then Goku would have corrected Tarble which he didn't.
Goku isn't the type of guy to randomly correct people, and Goku has sensed how strong first form Frieza was. And when Goku said "perfect for the kids" he may have been thinking the kids would go ssj, so base kids are perfect for suppressed Frieza and as ssj they are perfect for final form Frieza opponents which makes perfect sense.
And they clearly can't be 100% Frieza level in power since 100% Frieza was still above base Goku at that time, so unless you think base Goten and Trunks are stronger than base Goku, Abo and Cado have to be weaker than full power Frieza, and since Tarble only knew of first form Frieza, them being first form Frieza level makes the most sense.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:42 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote: In the anime it was clear Jiren had the same UI animations Goku did, but they never stated that it was.
But they DID stated it.

He's Just Strong. Pure, unadulterated STRENGTH he did gain by relying only on himself.
It's how he works thematically in the anime: unlike Goku who relies on companions, transformations, forms, and techniques to increase his power beyond his base limit, Jiren is absolute MIGHT.
Even his Limit Break form isn't actually a Limit Break but unleashing power he wasn't using due psychological limits

His Limit Break aura might look like Ultra Instinct, but if it was related somebody would have said something.


Obviously, this doesn't necessarily apply on Manga SupermanJiren: him having a greater mastery of Ultra Instinct than Belmod, maybe an "almost mastery", would be quite fine
I don't like that. They should have just made it clear it was UI vs. UI. People talking about Jiren as if he is limitless bugs me because most claims tend to hypothetically scale him however they want instead of within a set, unbiased tier. These abstract estimations or meta-concepts used for him just lacks organization for both in-universe and out-universe reflection.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:08 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:He's Just Strong. Pure, unadulterated STRENGTH he did gain by relying only on himself.
It's how he works thematically in the anime: unlike Goku who relies on companions, transformations, forms, and techniques to increase his power beyond his base limit, Jiren is absolute MIGHT.
Even his Limit Break form isn't actually a Limit Break but unleashing power he wasn't using due psychological limits
If that's what the anime did, then that's nonsense. Goku and Vegeta both are all about getting stronger on their own. Battle of Gods even calls Goku out on this fact.

The original manga also made no distinction between how you power up. Super Saiyan was treated as your own power. Magic was treated as your own power. These being "not real power" is silly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:13 pm

TKA wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:He's Just Strong. Pure, unadulterated STRENGTH he did gain by relying only on himself.
It's how he works thematically in the anime: unlike Goku who relies on companions, transformations, forms, and techniques to increase his power beyond his base limit, Jiren is absolute MIGHT.
Even his Limit Break form isn't actually a Limit Break but unleashing power he wasn't using due psychological limits
If that's what the anime did, then that's nonsense. Goku and Vegeta both are all about getting stronger on their own. Battle of Gods even calls Goku out on this fact.

The original manga also made no distinction between how you power up. Super Saiyan was treated as your own power. Magic was treated as your own power. These being "not real power" is silly.
The anime wasn't claiming any of that stuff wasn't real power. The point they were making with Jiren was that he didn't have any kind of gimmicks or special abilities like Hit's time skip or anything like that. He was just incredibly strong and everything he did was through sheer might gained through dedication and training. Jiren contrasted Goku because he didn't really believe in trust and teamwork or relying on others.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:38 pm

TKA wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:He's Just Strong. Pure, unadulterated STRENGTH he did gain by relying only on himself.
It's how he works thematically in the anime: unlike Goku who relies on companions, transformations, forms, and techniques to increase his power beyond his base limit, Jiren is absolute MIGHT.
Even his Limit Break form isn't actually a Limit Break but unleashing power he wasn't using due psychological limits
If that's what the anime did, then that's nonsense. Goku and Vegeta both are all about getting stronger on their own. Battle of Gods even calls Goku out on this fact.

The original manga also made no distinction between how you power up. Super Saiyan was treated as your own power. Magic was treated as your own power. These being "not real power" is silly.
This isn't true at all. In the beginning of Z Piccolo mentioned how there is more to fighting than strength. Just because Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon was strong enough to kill Radditz doesn't mean that he's stronger. Ultra instinct lies in a grey area between gimmicks and true strength.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:51 am

Bergamo wrote: This isn't true at all. In the beginning of Z Piccolo mentioned how there is more to fighting than strength.
Kinda irrelevant to the discussion.
Just because Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon was strong enough to kill Radditz doesn't mean that he's stronger.


Actually, that's exactly what it means. Even if Piccolo was only stronger for a fraction of a second, it is still factually correct that he was stronger than Raditz.
Ultra instinct lies in a grey area between gimmicks and true strength.
That's silly. That's like saying the Kaioken or Super Saiyan, or potential unlocking isn't real strength. That invalidates both the themes of the story and the character development the characters have gone though, all in the service of hyping some worthless new "character".
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:59 am

I'm not really sure if they were deliberately trying to go for the 'Jiren is pure strength, not a gimmicky fighter' in contrast to Goku, because that'd be dumb. Goku isn't a gimmicky fighter at all and is all about straightforward attacks.

Like, that's Dragon Ball in general. Really not big on using weird techniques or gimmicks.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:31 am

TKA wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:He's Just Strong. Pure, unadulterated STRENGTH he did gain by relying only on himself.
It's how he works thematically in the anime: unlike Goku who relies on companions, transformations, forms, and techniques to increase his power beyond his base limit, Jiren is absolute MIGHT.
Even his Limit Break form isn't actually a Limit Break but unleashing power he wasn't using due psychological limits
If that's what the anime did, then that's nonsense. Goku and Vegeta both are all about getting stronger on their own. Battle of Gods even calls Goku out on this fact.

The original manga also made no distinction between how you power up. Super Saiyan was treated as your own power. Magic was treated as your own power. These being "not real power" is silly.
I think the dichotomy created was more that Goku had gotten to the level of strength he has currently through constant competitivness and rivalry with those around him, as well as with his enemies, in contrast to Jiren, who got to his level of strength in solitude.

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