"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Omniboy » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:03 pm

I was just explaining to what the character said. Maybe I was wrong, and Toyo didn't convey it in the proper way, but you could have just told me that. There is no need to resort to this
Doctor. wrote:
I honestly don't give a shit about how strong Kale is. But you people are ignoring what the chapters present you and trying to rationalize what you don't like into something that you feel is more believable.
You see the thing that I had in mind for this fight was similar to happened between SSJ 2 and Beerus where Beerus let Vegeta rag doll him around. I wasn't trying rationlize anything, I just saw it as no different than that. No need for the hostility.

You know what I will just agree with you on this point and leave this alone.
And frankly, this "holding back" excuse is the same exact thing manga fans criticized the anime fans for saying whenever they tried to justify the anime's shit powerscalling, and yet here we are.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:05 pm

I wasn't being hostile just because I use swear words.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Omniboy » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:06 pm

Doctor. wrote:I wasn't being hostile just because I use swear words.
Well I apologize for seeing it that way.

For added context: I live around people who swear only when they are upset. I'm used it being like that around me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mnich » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:15 pm

I just found a little inconsistency. Not a big deal, but a noticeable thing.

After Kale's rage explodes, Rabanra is seen flying towards ring's edge. Almost impossible for him to escape from this situation as he has no wings.

Image

Yet, a few pages later, he's on the ring while Kale is hugging him.

Image

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Cipher wrote:I liked this chapter a lot.

This is the kind of crazy middle point I thought the anime needed. Would've expected it to involve Jiren, but structurally having Goku and Jiren's battle ramp up in the background (or in this case come in fits; I'm expecting it to be continuous from here out though) to come into eventual focus as the climax while something like Kafla happens in the foreground works just as well, if lending things a slightly different tone. Gave us some nice moments for the U6 crew as a whole too. That thumbs up is probably the best thing Cabba has ever done in any medium. It's a fun panel.
I don't see what you mean about the fight with Goku and Jiren having good structure. It was already ramped up to its highest extent in the initial fight; Goku gave it everything he had and he lost easily. You can’t establish that, have nothing change, and then keep having them fight in the background. It's jarring and bizarre to me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Spider-Man » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:23 pm

This might be the worst chapter in the ToP even worse than Chapter 35 sure it was dull but at least it had a focus here is an ugly mess.
    -Kale destroying half of the universe was really boring and their erasure felt hollow.
      -I can't believe they throw away Saonel and Pirina like that but I don't mind Cabba and Magetta heck Cabba was the best part of this, he has a great send off.
        -U11 taking out Kale was cool and stupid at the same time and Jiren was a jerk I guess he is like the anime counterpart.
          -Vegeta rescuing his second son was a good moment.
            -What the hell is Roshi going to do is he gonna defeat Kasheral or get thrown out with no fanfare like almost everyone else.
              Overall I find this chapter to be the worst and it ruin the ToP. I'm really hoping Gohan take out Kefla I know it's stupid but I want him to win.

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:31 pm

              Cipher wrote:snip
              Zephyr wrote:snip.
              I kinda expected you two to be a bit disappointed,even if the chapter had some nice stuff.Even if you guys treat it as longer movies,I’ll ask your opinion on something that has been bothering me the most.

              There is basically nothing conceptually new (it’s an exaggeration)and potential is just wasted.We are basically done with 8 universes and the most focused one was the one with saiyans.

              As far as I care,we are basically in the buu saga.You can’t expect anyone not a Saiyan to get continuous focus especially after they’ve been surpassed or any non Saigon lore.Power trumps everything in such a way it comes off as lazy and uncreative rather than impressive.Interesting ideas like demon realm are presented but not explored.
              Why power levels are important?
              The genre and roots of dragon ball

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:37 pm

              I honestly just laughed at this whole chapter. The criticisms we’ve had over the pacing of the ToP in the manga were basically overinflated in this one chapter. I was pleasantly surprised about Gohan vs Kefla at the end only because it's something different, but I'm totally not happy with how it got there.

              EDIT: Then again, if Gohan manages to contend with Kefla, powerscaling is shit, but if he gets rocked completely, then it's a waste, so... hmm...
              Last edited by TheShadowEmperor8055 on Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by Cipher » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:03 pm

              Hawk9211 wrote:I kinda expected you two to be a bit disappointed,even if the chapter had some nice stuff.Even if you guys treat it as longer movies,I’ll ask your opinion on something that has been bothering me the most.

              There is basically nothing conceptually new (it’s an exaggeration)and potential is just wasted.We are basically done with 8 universes and the most focused one was the one with saiyans.

              As far as I care,we are basically in the buu saga.You can’t expect anyone not a Saiyan to get continuous focus especially after they’ve been surpassed or any non Saigon lore.Power trumps everything in such a way it comes off as lazy and uncreative rather than impressive.Interesting ideas like demon realm are presented but not explored.
              Power trumping everything and the all-Saiyan show are issues that stem back to the original manga, and—while I can't say I love them as concepts—they also don't bother me if other thematic and character bits come together.

              Though, as far as the Saiyan complaint, the last three fighters in the anime only featured a single one, and I don't see that changing here (too important to the story to not wind up with those three playing the roles they do).

              I also don't care much for lore expansion, so I'm not caught up in imagining any lost potential in terms of "Oh, we could know more about _____ instead!". That's never interested me. Dragon Ball's world barely coheres; it's just going to show what it wants to show, and that's fitting.

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by MatureGambino » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:09 pm

              I didn't mind this chapter, it got rid of the riff raff so we can focus on the important characters. Toriyama shouldn't have never made it 12 universes in the first place, it could have just been 6 universes with only 4 of them competing in the Tournament of Power.

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by Professor Freeza » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:17 pm

              This chapter is the DEFINITION of Hot garbage

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:26 pm

              This was not only the worst chapter of the Toyotaro's rendition of the Universal Survival arc, but one of the worst chapters Toyotaro has written for entirety of the Dragon Ball Super manga, purely for the amount of potential that was wasted.

              Now I'm not asking for all of the 80 character to be properly utilized and all have distinctive fights and intriguing character dynamics, because that is FAR too big of task for any writer, or team of writers to tackle. But with some many characters at your disposal, I feel at though you can create some interesting interactions or fights with some of them. Use some of character as devices for further character development or character progression for the main cast or the integral new characters. or just have a visually stimulating battle.

              The pacing is dialed up beyond 100. I mean, I understand wanting to have a more streamlined story and wanting to trim the fat, but sometimes the narrative would benefit far more from you taking a moment or two to let scenarios evolve and sink in. Too many universes bite the dust in such a short space of time, and happened in such a cavalierly manner, that ultimately I don't get any kind of resonance or satisfaction from it. I'm not expecting some grand fanfare, but, goddamn, all of the universes that were eliminated by Kale contributed nothing compelling or intriguing in terms battles or character interactions. So I just assumed their sendoff would at least feel sombre given the nature of the arc, but they don't even get that.

              Some of the character writing was very hit-and-miss as well. Dyspo saying unlike his teammates, he's a force to be reckoned with was so stupid. I mean, his teammates are gang up on, beat up and nearly eliminate SSJ Kale (which in itself is pretty dumb), the same SSJ Kale that single handedly wiped out four universe, and yet Dyspo doesn't think his teammate aren't a force to reckoned with. Either he's fucking blind or was written out of character to be just insanely arrogant for that one moment against Cabba.

              And what the hell is exactly going on with Jiren? He previously showed that he was willing to help out his teammates, but as soon as shit hits the fan and Kefla starts wiping out his team, he deems it necessary to help them. I hope this actually leads to some interesting character dynamics between himself, Dyspo or Toppo, because if not, this is so out of character for him. Don't establish as helpful, heroic teammate, only to pull a 180 have him go full asshole with no build up. The anime could get away with that as it established him as aloof, distant and mostly indifferent to other until they interested him enough to act in response very early on.

              I did like the character writing of Cabba, Caulifla and Vegeta. Cabba specifically was wonderfully written. I greatly enjoyed his resolute attitude to wanting to save Kale and prevent Universe 6 from erasure and the fashion of which he aided in Kale and Caulifla fusing with quite ingenious. And his conversation with Vegeta was very nuanced.

              Caulifla having the Potara was far to convenient for my liking. How on Earth did she manage to steal them for the U6 Kaioshin without him noticing? And why would want to steal them in the first place? For profit? Or is it a force of habit for her to steal shit from people?

              And despite being in the home stretch, and even after seeing Kale's rampage, I'm not looking forward to Gohan fighting Kefla either. That match up that feels SO random. I would have much rather had Kelfa fight Jiren. You would have thought that after Kefla eliminated 60% of Universe 11 Jiren would gunning for her, but, nope, Goku HAS to fight Jiren. And logically speaking, how the fuck is Gohan going to last more than 10 seconds against Kefla? Unless Gohan got monster power-up leading up the the Tournament Of Power, it's going to be one of the most one-sided fights you'll ever see. And with Kefla existing in the fashion she did -- with Caulifla fusing while Kale was SSJ Beserker -- it'll most likely mean Kale won't receive any kind of character arc.

              Kale could have been portrayed to be a seemingly unstoppable force in battle, while utilising a good portion of the rest of the new characters introduced solely for this arc to provide some memorable fights, compelling character moments, or at the very least, some satisfactory shift in building a new personality for some of the fighters. I don't care if it may feel somewhat superfluous or "fanservicey", I just want something to get invested in or feel excited about with this story with. And unfortunately, the Toyotaro so far hasn't given me a anything substantial to latch onto.

              I know people will go on about how Toyotaro still makes the atmosphere feel more like a battle royale than the anime did, but the tradeoff for that has absolutely not be worth it. What's the point of having a story told a much brisker pace, if the content itself is nearly barren with interesting fights or intriguing character evolution? Toriyama may have been a brisk storyteller, but didn't mostly forsake character development, captivating personality dynamics or compelling battles for the sake of it.

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:35 pm

              Doctor. wrote:And frankly, this "holding back" excuse is the same exact thing manga fans criticized the anime fans for saying whenever they tried to justify the anime's shit powerscalling, and yet here we are.
              Not always an excuse. Recall:
              *In the RoF movie, SSB Goku getting fatally injured by a ray gun because he was stated to have let his guard down
              *In the Super anime, SSB Goku being able to lower his power to the point where Krillin's Kamehameha was contending with his
              *In the anime as well, SSB Goku getting manhandled by SS Berserker Kale, yet SSG Goku dominating an even stronger Kale several episodes later
              *And not to mention in the ToP, it was stated that Goku and Vegeta are trying to conserve their energy for the latter stages of the ToP; it wouldn't be wise for them to go all out in SSB in the earlier stages of the tournament

              There are many, many other examples, but it's been established through all forms of media for this "Super"-era that Goku and very likely Vegeta, since they went through the same training, can raise or lower their power levels in SSB from slightly above SS/Krillin's level/being hit with a ray gun all the way to the levels of Hit/Golden Freeza/Toppo/etc.

              However, don't get it twisted, just because I point this out doesn't mean I like it. I don't. It's frustrating to witness even with having that fact in mind, because it makes SSB look even more shittier than it needs to be. Hell, in many situations, Goku could have used SSG (or something lower), since I still feel that transformation should not have gotten shafted for that long in the show. And this doesn't explain SSB Kaioken being used in situations where it didn't really need to be used. Why use Kaioken if you are not going all out? Nor does it explain Golden Freeza or the other examples of the shit powerscaling in the show. But I did want to point that one out.

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by LightBing » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:39 pm

              Caulifla's stealing the earrings is a reference to her life as a thief and her liking for valuable things. It's a good way to make the plot work.

              Obuki's last stand is nice but far too short, it loses it's impact. Anilaza like I said before it's the definition of rushed. Nothing wrong with Dyspo saying he's stronger than his teamates, it's the truth.

              Goku appearing next to Jiren at the end is out of nowhere. It feels like Toyotarõ had something else in mind and used this chapter to change everything up to set up what's coming ahead.

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by Charlie_1981 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:55 pm

              LightBing wrote:Caulifla's stealing the earrings is a reference to her life as a thief and her liking for valuable things. It's a good way to make the plot work.

              Obuki's last stand is nice but far too short, it loses it's impact. Anilaza like I said before it's the definition of rushed. Nothing wrong with Dyspo saying he's stronger than his teamates, it's the truth.

              Goku appearing next to Jiren at the end is out of nowhere. It feels like Toyotarõ had something else in mind and used this chapter to change everything up to set up what's coming ahead.
              Also, Caulifla's stealing the earrings serves too for save Kale's life fusing with her.

              If Kefla loses to Gohan (or Goku) and the fusion falls apart, Kale will be unconscious and return to her normal self until the Universe 6 returns to be restored and have a conversation with Caulifla about their levels of power, maybe their relationship began to be like it was in the anime.

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by Kanassa » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:56 pm

              LightBing wrote:Caulifla's stealing the earrings is a reference to her life as a thief and her liking for valuable things. It's a good way to make the plot work.
              It's incredibly convenient that she just happened to steal the items off-screen that would save her ass with it only being referenced when the plot requires it.
              When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:12 pm

              So this chapter wasn't bad. It was nice that it wasn't just U7 getting all the eliminations. Although taking out 4 universes seemed a bit much but oh well. I am glad that it seems like Gohan will have some kind of role in this arc of the manga. I was worried he was going to go the way of Krillin and Tien.

              Also I am still holding out for a fight between Roshi and Cassarole. The two older fighting vetrens seems like it could be a cool fight.
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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by Zen Yabuki » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:19 pm

              Lord Beerus wrote:This was not only the worst chapter of the Toyotaro's rendition of the Universal Survival arc, but one of the worst chapters Toyotaro has written for entirety of the Dragon Ball Super manga, purely for the amount of potential that was wasted.

              Now I'm not asking for all of the 80 character to be properly utilized and all have distinctive fights and intriguing character dynamics, because that is FAR too big of task for any writer, or team of writers to tackle. But with some many characters at your disposal, I feel at though you can create some interesting interactions or fights with some of them. Use some of character as devices for further character development or character progression for the main cast or the integral new characters. or just have a visually stimulating battle.

              The pacing is dialed up beyond 100. I mean, I understand wanting to have a more streamlined story and wanting to trim the fat, but sometimes the narrative would benefit far more from you taking a moment or two to let scenarios evolve and sink in. Too many universes bite the dust in such a short space of time, and happened in such a cavalierly manner, that ultimately I don't get any kind of resonance or satisfaction from it. I'm not expecting some grand fanfare, but, goddamn, all of the universes that were eliminated by Kale contributed nothing compelling or intriguing in terms battles or character interactions. So I just assumed their sendoff would at least feel sombre given the nature of the arc, but they don't even get that.

              Some of the character writing was very hit-and-miss as well. Dyspo saying unlike his teammates, he's a force to be reckoned with was so stupid. I mean, his teammates are gang up on, beat up and nearly eliminate SSJ Kale (which in itself is pretty dumb), the same SSJ Kale that single handedly wiped out four universe, and yet Dyspo doesn't think his teammate aren't a force to reckoned with. Either he's fucking blind or was written out of character to be just insanely arrogant for that one moment against Cabba.

              And what the hell is exactly going on with Jiren? He previously showed that he was willing to help out his teammates, but as soon as shit hits the fan and Kefla starts wiping out his team, he deems it necessary to help them. I hope this actually leads to some interesting character dynamics between himself, Dyspo or Toppo, because if not, this is so out of character for him. Don't establish as helpful, heroic teammate, only to pull a 180 have him go full asshole with no build up. The anime could get away with that as it established him as aloof, distant and mostly indifferent to other until they interested him enough to act in response very early on.

              I did like the character writing of Cabba, Caulifla and Vegeta. Cabba specifically was wonderfully written. I greatly enjoyed his resolute attitude to wanting to save Kale and prevent Universe 6 from erasure and the fashion of which he aided in Kale and Caulifla fusing with quite ingenious. And his conversation with Vegeta was very nuanced.

              Caulifla having the Potara was far to convenient for my liking. How on Earth did she manage to steal them for the U6 Kaioshin without him noticing? And why would want to steal them in the first place? For profit? Or is it a force of habit for her to steal shit from people?

              And despite being in the home stretch, and even after seeing Kale's rampage, I'm not looking forward to Gohan fighting Kefla either. That match up that feels SO random. I would have much rather had Kelfa fight Jiren. You would have thought that after Kefla eliminated 60% of Universe 11 Jiren would gunning for her, but, nope, Goku HAS to fight Jiren. And logically speaking, how the fuck is Gohan going to last more than 10 seconds against Kefla? Unless Gohan got monster power-up leading up the the Tournament Of Power, it's going to be one of the most one-sided fights you'll ever see. And with Kefla existing in the fashion she did -- with Caulifla fusing while Kale was SSJ Beserker -- it'll most likely mean Kale won't receive any kind of character arc.

              Kale could have been portrayed to be a seemingly unstoppable force in battle, while utilising a good portion of the rest of the new characters introduced solely for this arc to provide some memorable fights, compelling character moments, or at the very least, some satisfactory shift in building a new personality for some of the fighters. I don't care if it may feel somewhat superfluous or "fanservicey", I just want something to get invested in or feel excited about with this story with. And unfortunately, the Toyotaro so far hasn't given me a anything substantial to latch onto.

              I know people will go on about how Toyotaro still makes the atmosphere feel more like a battle royale than the anime did, but the tradeoff for that has absolutely not be worth it. What's the point of having a story told a much brisker pace, if the content itself is nearly barren with interesting fights or intriguing character evolution? Toriyama may have been a brisk storyteller, but didn't mostly forsake character development, captivating personality dynamics or compelling battles for the sake of it.
              My opinion is very similar to this. I don’t hate it though, but it’s definitely one of he most boring and wasted chapters imo

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by emperior » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:29 pm

              I am going to paste some of my opinions regarding the manga’s arc and the latest chapter from another thread.

              The manga version of the US arc is just incredibly rushed and takes away the very premise of the Tournament, which was requested by Goku to Zeno (or rather, reminded of) just so he could fight warriors from all the universes. Which he actually did in the anime, unlike in the manga where he just fights the Pride Troopers and literally exchanges two punches with Kale.
              The manga feels incredibly chaotic, sure, but at the expense of making it feel like only 4 minutes at best have passed since the beginning of the tournament, and U6 alone eliminated more than half of the fighters in the arena. It’s almost like Toyotaro is making it bad on purpose. What was even the point in making an 80 men tournament if you only want to use Hit, U6 Saiyans, Ribrianne and some of the Pride Troopers from the other universes? I didn’t expect Toyotaro to be able to make as many characters from the other universes as in the anime interesting, but I was still expecting something.

              While under Toriyama’s pen I am sure the pacing would be in the middle between the manga and the anime, I am sure the storytelling would have been more similar to the anime’s, which had some gags and explored more of the personality of the fighters, in a similar way to what Toriyama always did in his manga, where even the minor characters had something going on for them (remember all the characters appearing in the tournaments, King Piccolo’s minions, Cui, Pui Pui, Yakon...).
              I don’t get why Toyotaro didn’t even try to give a little personality to other fighters not named Jiren, Ribrianne, Toppo, Caulifla, Kale. These are the only interesting characters in the manga. Especially Cabba, who was just awesome this chapter even though it makes absolutely no sense that he knew of the potaras (not even Kaioshin knew of them in the original manga) nor does it make much sense that now U6 Saiyans know of a legend about a demonic Saiyan, as they didn’t even know about Super Saiyan. But oh well, manga Cabba has always been a more knowledgeable guy compared to his anime’s counterpart, as he knew of Saiyan’s tails.
              I would also like to point out just how convenient it was of Caulifla to suddenly drop the potaras. That could have been handled better, as I actually love the fact she just stole them.

              I still expect Toyotaro to at least deliver a nice last fight against Jiren, but the whole manga ToP arc has already been ruined.
              I am quite sure that the tournament ended up like this in the manga because Toyotaro was forced to wrap it up before December so that he can focus on the Broly story, to also hype up the movie. Which is further confirmation of how the manga is just a promotional tool for the main Dragon Ball Super story, which is the animated one.
              That’s a shame because while I am not a big fan of Toyotaro’s manga, I liked how he actually took his time to tell the Future Trunks arc in his own pace, and I expected his ToP rendition to be much longer but we now know it’s not the case.
              My canon

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              Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

              Post by precita » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:30 pm

              Cipher wrote:I liked this chapter a lot.

              This is the kind of crazy middle point I thought the anime needed. Would've expected it to involve Jiren, but structurally having Goku and Jiren's battle ramp up in the background (or in this case come in fits; I'm expecting it to be continuous from here out though) to come into eventual focus as the climax while something like Kafla happens in the foreground works just as well, if lending things a slightly different tone. Gave us some nice moments for the U6 crew as a whole too. That thumbs up is probably the best thing Cabba has ever done in any medium. It's a fun panel.

              The manga's arcs have always ended up feeling like single-sitting reads (akin to longer versions of the Toriyama flicks), so I don't think this pacing is at all out of line with the series or indicative of a scheduling crunch. I suspect it'll hold up on rereads quite well.
              The problem is what's the point? Nobody in the tournament in the manga matters except for a few characters. The anime managed to give most of the main cast great character moments, as well as many of the other Universe before going down. What the hell was the point of U3? Why did they even need to fuse for one panel? What is the point of two Nameks if Piccolo is never going to face them and they're done in one panel? What is the point of anyone?

              You also don't get 18's moments saving 17, any of the great character interactions between the rest of U7, and it now looks like both Gohan and Roshi will be wasted too. Gohan a quick loss to Kefla, and who on earth is Roshi supposed to fight now this late in? The whole 80 person tournament has no point in the manga at all, they could have cut it down to about 30 fighters and it'd make no difference.

              It's odd you're ok with the characterisation being far worse than it ever was in the anime, for as much as some eps in the anime had obvious pacing problems, I sure as hell think rushing through everything and treating half the main cast and almost all of U7 as an afterthought is far worse. I guarantee if the anime eps played out like the manga, the TOP would have been the most hated arc in all of Dragonball, instead it's considered one of the best parts of Super.

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