"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:58 am

I’m not really a fan of this chapter. I know I’ve mentioned how the manga has a more ‘realistic’ (in regards to the original scale) way of doing things, and it’s usually more coherent because it tries to explain almost everything, and keeps shit toned down.... but this is too much for me. I’m all for eliminating fodder, and this has pretty much shown them off as such, but this is crazy.

Even with all the mangas explanations I’m still not sure where Kale lies; we have Freeza stating he didn’t get serious yet, and Goku being taken by surprise, then shortly after Vegeta points out her weaknesses and states her powers already dropping (hence why the pride troopers could fight her) I’m still not sure if she’s even stronger than SSJB at full power, but realistically she very well could be judging by how strong Kales base was, and Broly being equal to Blue when he doesn’t even turn SSJ. So I’m actually gonna say she’s very close in raw power to SSJB in a serious battle, but SSJB would win for the reasons Vegeta stated.
Kelfla is now the interesting one, she’s obviously stronger than Kale, but I have no idea how Gohan deflected the blast the way he did (let’s face it, it makes no sense considering she was going for the top dogs), but maybe Toyotaro will mention something as he usually loves to do.
Tbh Gohan should get throttled, even if he has been training since the Trunks arc, he shouldn’t be anywhere near God level, so all I can hope for is some teamwork from all of our remaining members, and maybe a mafuba finish! One things for sure though, Kefla won’t look stronger, and logically won’t be anywhere near Vegetto this time around which I’m gonna fucking love! :lol:

Anyway, the postives of this chapter were clearly Cabba, and having explanations for Kale. Also loved the “Legendary Saiyan” nod, love even more that it was only left as “Legendary Saiyan” instead of LSSJ (although Viz fucked up Cabbas line and had him say LSSJ). It fits with U6 lore of them not knowing about SSJ.
I enjoyed Gowasu and Obuni.
Oh, Caulifla stealing the potara worked well too considering we’ve seen her love for stealing things prior. I love little nods like that.

The bad was mainly down to Kale. Getting rid of fodder is all well and good, but this lacked in execution, there just wasn’t a sense of a battle royale, it went back to the anime shtick of basically have one battle at a time, albeit it wasn’t quite the same, but I would love if everybody just charged her at the same time knowing she was the biggest threat.
The amount of Universes that were eliminated. This was just far too fast, I know Kale going ape was the reason, but it being a little slower would stop it feeling rushed. Maybe throw in a more drawn out battle with Aniraza, that would’ve been cool.

That’s basically all the bad and considering that was most of the chapter I didn’t enjoy it.

After seeing Kale like this I don’t understand how Broly will be stopped in this new movie. I can’t see him losing stamina like Kale. Will he be/stay insane, or will he gain some wits? How could be possibly join our heroes? This chapter has basically made me think about events that could happen in the Broly movie more than Kale. :lol:

One thing I’d like to add is that I blame Toriyama for setting up the ToP so early. The anime hit issues by dragging stuff out since we knew fuck all about the other universes, which was a bad way of doing things given the setting, but it attempted to give us a bond.
The manga is now hitting issues by trying to keep the pace going like a battle royale (sorta) but we don’t give a shit about the majority of the Universes because we haven’t got time for them in this version.
The main problem in both of these versions is Toriyama deciding to use this arc before we could explore the other universes. Or a battle royale was the wrong setting.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:59 am

precita wrote:I don't get why people complained about the pacing problems of the anime. Outside of a few scenes, it gave almost every character time to shine besides the few obvious fodder characters.
Speaking for myself, that's exactly the issue. It was full of very structured, artificial spotlight episodes when it was clear the story was only ever interested in a few players against the crazy backdrop. It continuously asked for investment in moments that tended to ring hollow.

Comparatively, brisk and crazy is a mode that feels like it fits the story. It's not devoid of character moments, but here they actually get to stand out.

EDIT -- Not directed at anyone in particular, but I do wish the word "defend" would disappear from this thread. Toyotaro isn't my child. There are certainly negatives about the chapter: the paneling and action remain weak as always, but I'd be a broken record to point that out each month, and it's no worse than usual here; there's some distracting character placement, such as Freeza disappearing or Goku reappearing by Jiren after a bit of action this chapter. Anilaza's bit is maybe the one time since the U6 arc the manga has really felt subservient to the anime to me, as--unlike the Namekians, who work fine as a bit of background stuff for Universe 6--really doesn't feel natural included as a one-off gag if you don't know about his role in the anime.

But that's all small potatoes to me. It's not stuff I'd initially think to bring up because it doesn't really impact my enjoyment of the chapter. Things like the weak panelling remain ever-present issues I hope improve, but in terms of the writing I rarely come away from a chapter without a smile on my face.

Which doesn't also mean, when people bring up ideas like, "Well, if all the opponents are throw-away, how are we to get invested in any of the action we see?" I can't see where they're coming from. Expressed with some measure, I can get why that may be a negative for some readers.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:29 am

jeffbr92 wrote:As much as I would like this to be true is nothing but advertising, if this were in Japanese, then it would have more credibility.
It is stamped by the Japanese Shueisha name at the bottom.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:59 am

-Chapter 38-

Not as awesome as the previous chapter.

Kale's berserk form actually shows how fierce she can be by eliminating a lot of people and have 4 Universes getting erased. In the anime she barely eliminated anyone in that state, which was ridiculous. I like how this chapter fixes one of my complaints with the anime which was Universe 7 being responsible for eliminating everyone, but waste 4 universes like that was an exaggeration.

I thought Universe 4 had been wasted in the anime, but not anymore when compared to the manga. And the other three didn't get a better treatment either.

Ribrianne/Rozie/Kakunsa didn't have a cool fight against C17/C18, there's not a cool U7 teamwork fight against Aniraza from Universe 3, Roshi doesn't have any cool fight with U4,
and as far as Universe 10 goes the only thing I expected was Obuni's locket scene, which doesn't happen here either. I liked that scene in the anime, because it shows these news characters have families to protect too.

I also didn't like how Kale started eliminating her own teammates. It was already obvious she had lost control. there was no need for that.

U6 Namekians didn't even fought. If like the anime, the entire Namekian race sacrificed their lifes in order to gave those two their power, only for them to be eliminated by their own teammate, that's just stupid... Cabba didn't get SSJ2 too.

Cabba/Caulifla know about the "Legendary Saiyan" is questionable, when they didn't know anything about SSJ. Why Cabba never mentioned that when we saw Goku/Vegeta transforming in Champa's tournament?! He always seemed clueless about everything and now he knows about a Legend?!...

Not sure if Toyotaro was told by Shueisha to rush this so he can draw a promotional manga for the Movie, but the pacing was ridiculously bad and easily the worst thing of this chapter.

Gohan vs Kefla is a letdown, because my favourite DBS fight is Goku vs Caulifla/Kale/Kefla and that may not happen here.

It's funny how Roshi is still in there but still didn't fight anyone. It's easy to make him get this far this way...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saturnine » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:22 am

BOW DOWN TO THE ULTIMATE POWER, PEONS

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Arg » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:46 am

I liked the motivation behind fusing into Kefla. Other than that, storywise, one of the worst chapters I have ever read.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:58 am

Zephyr wrote: Since "nothing conceptually new" is an admitted exaggeration, I won't bother addressing that. Your point that "power trumps everything" is explicitly undermined by Kale eventually getting worked around by the Pride Troopers.

Like Cipher said, "focusing on the Saiyans" isn't new. Son Goku, someone later revealed as a Saiyan, has been the main character from day one. After the arc that introduces his heritage, along with four new members of this race (his son included), this race far and away becomes the focus of the rest of the series. The Namek arc's climax involves fighting the would-be genocider of their race, and the manifestation of their race's (at the time) biggest legend. The Cell arc focuses largely on the four protagonist Saiyans, and their different approaches to improving upon that legend. The Buu arc starts out with one Saiyan as the focal point, and shifts into a preventable crisis accelerated by two other Saiyans' rivalry; and when the next generation of half-Saiyans fail to solve their fathers' problems, said fathers solve it themselves (though not without some crucial outside assistance). Super, from Battle of Gods in 2013 to the Tournament of Power in 2018, has likewise had Saiyans at the forefront the entire time; indeed, that stretch has overall involved Goku and Vegeta's learning of mushin from a cornish rex and his guardian angel. At this point, if having Saiyans being the focus bothers you, you should have jumped ship decades ago. And while Cipher also keenly pointed out that only one of the four final combatants in the anime was a Saiyan, and the manga is clearly heading in that same direction, the following story, this new film, is, guess what? All about "what it means to be a Saiyan". And don't worry, I'm certainly aware that non-Saiyans had ample time to shine throughout the manga; but the point here is about focus.
I think you took the exaggeration thing a bit too literally.Regardless,I’m not only talking about saiyans being focused and not only in context of super.
I’m talking how important something seems on paper is somehow just ignored in favour of saiyans unlimited potential.

Take god ki,namekian book of legends(which seemingly only has stuff on sauna a) or even ultra instinct we do have some superficial explanations and they are supposedly important.But,how much they are expanded and focused on.We do get things like black zenkai or goku’s gain in top all of which is just saiyans are strongest warrior race with unlimited potential.My question is that does it even needs to be mentioned let alone focused and every time act like some mind blowing shit?
"Potential" is always popping up in Dragon Ball discussions, and it's bizarre to me. Every story you could ever conceivably tell has some "wasted potential", some things that could later be expanded upon and fleshed out that weren't. This is true for Dragon Ball. This is true for other manga and anime. This is true for live action television and film. This is true for real world accounts of shit that happened to you throughout the day. You cannot flesh out every microscopic detail to their limit, no matter what we're talking about. There will always be more stories that could be told, more things that could be learned. And that's been acknowledged in this very thread by some of the detractors, and that's good. But the next important step in the conversation is identifying when something needed to be expanded on, and I recognize that this is indeed one of the major points of contention.

I do not believe in the slightest that 100% of the fighters, or even most of the fighters, in the Tournament of Power needed a good showing, or even any real showing. "What's the point of having an 80 man tournament!?" To have an 80 man tournament. To emphasize that there are a lot of people participating. You don't need to "give them all a cool moment" in order for the volume of fighters to be what it is. This doesn't "waste their potential", because they weren't wasted: they were utilized. They were utilized to show that not everyone can be important, and more specifically, they were used to show off how freakishly scary Kale is. Their poor showings in the tournament were in service of something, therefore their poor showings do not constitute a waste. And given where we know the story goes after this tournament, Kale is a big fucking deal. Her rampage and utter demolishing of the tournament's roster specifically foreshadows how in over their heads our boys will be in the next arc. And, no, of course it's not impossible for all of these guys to have cool showings and get wiped out in Kale's bloodthirsty rampage. But that doesn't matter, because they still acted in service of Kale's rampage. They weren't wasted. What about the Universe 6 Namekians? Were they "wasted potential"? No, they weren't. They were a sacrifice to show that Kale is bloodthirsty enough to attack her own teammates. Did it have to be them? No. But it was them. They served a narrative function. Ergo, they, too, were not wasted. And, as we know from the tournament's resolution, these universes are coming back. So their very existence hasn't been wasted. They get brought back. The multiverse is still a huge fucking place.
Now, I agree and disagree with it.There will always be wasted potential and not everyone is going to be important.

Multiverse is a large place?It is,however that doesn’t mean that we need to do the same bullshit as dbz.First,defeat the strongest guy in the universe then have someone from rra build something stronger than that on earth and then have some demons stronger than that from where.All of that happens because toriyama didn’t think about it,but now we have 12 universes.

Now,these 80 characters don’t need to have fleshed out backstories or chapters dedicated to them,but as doctor said:
Doctor. wrote:
Kanassa wrote:Thing is, people can say 'Oh, they're just fodder' and 'You were never promised they'd do anything', but if the majority of the arc's screen time is based upon the 'fodder; getting eliminated, it's kind of just saying that the majority of the story is spent on bland fights you are neither supposed to care about nor be invested in.
Yeah, that's the major issue here. They can't say 80% of the cast in this tournament is disposable while defending such a large part of the tournament being dedicated to getting rid of those characters.

I'll repeat myself again for anyone who wants to read and isn't interested in misrepresenting the complaints thrown at the Tournament of Power, both in the manga and the anime, in the way it has been executed as a concept: this is an extremely interesting concept. We are talking about the elimination of multiple universes here and each and every fighter has been chosen to represent their homeland and fight in order to protect their loved ones. The anime touches on the implications of the entire setting during the Zen Exhibition and Obuni's elimination and the manga does the same during the elimination of Bergamo, but the truth is that all of these characters have largely been reduced to nothing more than background decoration. Yes, that may have been a conscious decision on Toriyama and Toyotaro's part, but it's a conscious decision that warrants criticism given the setting they have created, and it's not criticism that should be ignored simply because a coherent story has been created around this incredibly flawed premise. The incredibly interesting setting of this arc was butchered and used as nothing more than an excuse to throw action figures together; that's all there is. There's little to no substance here, regardless of how "cohesive" the "story" actually is.

I'm aware that this is Dragon Ball and handling touchy and mature subjects in a lighthearted manner is nothing new to Dragon Ball, but every competently written story arc in this franchise has handled death and stakes with some sort of gravitas. Imagine if nobody cared when Yamcha died to the Saibaman and they just kept talking and attacking as if nothing happened. Better yet, imagine if when Tao killed Bora, Goku was all cheerful; that's what this entire story arc feels like.

This is not a tournament for fun. The characters, outside of Goku and few others, are not having the time of their life here. Each and every character here has their own life, has their own planet, has their own universe to defend. Nobody is asking a detailed backstory on every character, that is ridiculous, but they are not being properly utilized if they're being tossed out of the ring left and right and the story keeps ignoring the implications that their elimination and the erasure of the universes should have on them and the characters we know. And this brings me to my next point: these characters can be useful to SERVE character arcs of the characters we already know. You can use these characters' powers, backstories, personalities, races, relationships with other characters, etc, to contrast with and complement our own characters on top of helping nail down the tone of the arc and integrating themselves into the themes this arc is presenting. The truth is that we care about action in Dragon Ball, as ekrolo put it in another thread, because of the context surrounding that action; and so, BOTH characters need to have something for us to be invested in. If Nam didn't have his backstory, we wouldn't be invested in his fight with Goku; he'd be just another opponent Goku has to beat. The fight is memorable because of the contrast between Nam's desperation and Goku's aloof nature, not simply because the action scenes are cool. We are not simply invested in one character. I don't give a fuck about Goku's fight if I don't care about who he's fighting. I care about Goku's fight if the character he's fighting is interesting. Now, if the opponents Goku & co are fighting for about 50% of this "story" don't have anything I can call interesting, then why the fuck am I watching or reading this piece of shit? To watch some cool fight scenes? I can watch some cool fight scenes whilst being invested in the story, in the action, in the characters and opposing factions, with well communicated stakes and tension, by reading the original series. Now, it's fine if you're one who doesn't mind just watching some cool fight scenes. If the spectacle is for you, then more power to you. But don't you dare turn around and accuse others of only wanting flashy fanservice when that's precisely the thing you prove yourself interested in by defending this travesty of an arc. And if you acknowledge that this arc is nothing but dumb, stupid action, then you have no leg to stand on when you call people out who want something more; because, like it or not, this manga has repeatedly promoted itself as a sequel to Dragon Ball, the manga by Akira Toriyama, published from 1984 to 1995 in Weekly Shounen Jump, and we have all the right to judge it by the same standard. If it repeatedly falls short, then that's not our fault, it's nobody but Toyotaro's and Toriyama's (and Toei's).

Now,I won’t say it hasn’t been done at all.I do have gripes with god battle royale,but it did increase my interest in some characters and consequently their universes.

I don’t give a damn about logic,just because something makes sense doesn’t mean it’s good.All of the above cases or at least the first and last can make sense because universe is a large place,but that just makes reader lose interest in the world because author can just use loopholes or retcons to do whatever he wants.The fictional world should feel real and not subjected to whims of author(even though it is).
The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

As for the constant assertions that the manga lacks "excitement", "hype", "intensity", or what have you....while I'm certain this doesn't apply to everyone tossing that around: do a lot of you simply not find comic books as a medium in general to be very stimulating or exciting? Because I thought this chapter was exciting as hell.

I know I'll probably reply for a bit, but I'm anticipating very few being anything beyond just repeating what I've said here (or repeating something that TKA has said several dozen times). I'd be elated to be able to do otherwise.
Replied above.
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:38 am

Saturnine wrote:BOW DOWN TO THE ULTIMATE POWER, PEONS

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:lol: :lol: :lol:
Is it just me or does he look like a green Mr. Satan?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:46 am

Doctor. wrote:this is an extremely interesting concept. We are talking about the elimination of multiple universes here and each and every fighter has been chosen to represent their homeland and fight in order to protect their loved ones. The anime touches on the implications of the entire setting during the Zen Exhibition and Obuni's elimination and the manga does the same during the elimination of Bergamo, but the truth is that all of these characters have largely been reduced to nothing more than background decoration. Yes, that may have been a conscious decision on Toriyama and Toyotaro's part, but it's a conscious decision that warrants criticism given the setting they have created, and it's not criticism that should be ignored simply because a coherent story has been created around this incredibly flawed premise. The incredibly interesting setting of this arc was butchered and used as nothing more than an excuse to throw action figures together; that's all there is. There's little to no substance here, regardless of how "cohesive" the "story" actually is.
I totally get where this is coming from. The stakes and the consequences and the moral ambiguity of both holding and participating in this sort of tournament could serve to decidedly underscore the "poisonous" side of Goku's character. That's where it certainly seemed to be going at the beginning, and it's indeed disappointing that it didn't go down that route.

Where I part ways with this dissatisfaction, however, is that we got something else instead. We definitely didn't get the neat thing described above, but that neat thing isn't the sole thing that a storyteller is allowed to do with this sort of concept. An author can do whatever the hell they want. That they told this story rather than that story doesn't entail a flaw, and it doesn't entail butchering. They did something we weren't expecting. The story told largely turned out to be about seeing Freeza develop into a team player, about Jiren and #17 becoming more human and empathetic, about Zeno showing more nuance than we'd been lead to believe he was capable of since his introduction, serving as a significant milestone in Goku's tutelage under Beerus and Whis, and, at least as far as the manga is concerned, strongly foreshadowing the following story arc about Broly.

And it's not like this whole "fight for survival thing" is absent. I hate to compare the manga to the anime, once again, but I feel that the difference in pace helps create different circumstances for that idea to exist in. If one story is taking longer, then there's more time to dwell on consciously talking and thinking about their collective mortality. The more room it has to dwell on these matters, the more grating it feels for the dwelling to be absent. I know I've given the anime some modicum of shit for that. In the manga, the incredibly brisk pace its going at provides little room for this kind of thinking and talking. Shit just keeps happening, and despite that, Cabba still had some time to argue that point to Caulifla this last chapter. The less room there is to dwell on these matters, the less their lack of being dwelt on grates the reader/viewer.

You're not obligated to enjoy or like the arc, but saying that it's "nothing more than an excuse to throw action figures together" just rings disingenuous to me. To say that there's "little to no substance" here seems contingent on ignoring a lot of what's actually going on beyond the spectacle and fireworks.
Doctor. wrote:Nobody is asking a detailed backstory on every character, that is ridiculous, but they are not being properly utilized if they're being tossed out of the ring left and right and the story keeps ignoring the implications that their elimination and the erasure of the universes should have on them and the characters we know.
Again, this is outright dictating what "proper utilization" is allowed to constitute. If they are being tossed out left and right in Kale's rampage, they're helping to sell how insane Kale's rampage is, and in turn foreshadowing how insane Broly's rampage is likely to be. These characters are being "wasted", so that we can get a taste of this "Legendary Saiyan" that the following arc is going to be about (and I don't mean that in a "get a taste for the hype" kind of way). And, as I've acknowledged, sure, you could have them all put up a bit more of a fight and all show off their trademark abilities, and still have them all get trounced by Kale (letting us have our cake and eat it too), but I don't think that's necessary to sell the rampage. Like you said, we know from the very premise of the tournament that these people are "chosen to represent their homeland and fight in order to protect their loved ones". In the same way we know everyone in the finals of the Tenkaichi Budokai (prior to the 24th, obviously) must be hot shit, since they passed the preliminaries, even if we don't see their performance there. We know on principle that they're tough dudes, and so their being taken out so rapidly indicates how serious of a threat Kale is.

And that doesn't mean it's perfect, or flawless, or as good as it could possibly be. I agree that if they also showed off why they were chosen (you know, show rather than tell), it would sell the rampage that much more, and the story would indeed be better. I just don't think it's necessary. On the flipside, I do agree that the erasure of universes should have an impact on some of Universe 7's fighters. While Krillin, Tenshinhan, Roshi, and Piccolo should naturally have enormous reservations about facilitating the demise of countless lives, Gohan I feel is the best person to do this with: among those on our team with reservations about innocent casualties, he's the most capable of helping to bring that to fruition. More than anyone else in the series, there's room for genuine tension there, between Gohan's sense of morality, and the dire need to protect his own budding family. This is largely wasted in both the anime and the manga, though the anime capitalizes on it more.
Doctor. wrote:If Nam didn't have his backstory, we wouldn't be invested in his fight with Goku; he'd be just another opponent Goku has to beat. The fight is memorable because of the contrast between Nam's desperation and Goku's aloof nature, not simply because the action scenes are cool. We are not simply invested in one character. I don't give a fuck about Goku's fight if I don't care about who he's fighting. I care about Goku's fight if the character he's fighting is interesting. Now, if the opponents Goku & co are fighting for about 50% of this "story" don't have anything I can call interesting, then why the fuck am I watching or reading this piece of shit? To watch some cool fight scenes? I can watch some cool fight scenes whilst being invested in the story, in the action, in the characters and opposing factions, with well communicated stakes and tension, by reading the original series.
I think the problem with this analogy is that you're comparing Namu to the mooks that Kale knocked out. These aren't analogous. Tupper, Murichim, Shantza, and other similar characters are more akin to those mostly nameless preliminary round Tenkaichi Budokai fighters. The characters like Namu, who you are invested in, whose interests and backstories you understand to some extent, are your Kaflas, your Toppos, your Jirens.
I know I literally just compared them to the finalists above, but they have things in common with both the preliminary fighters and with the finalists, depending on what we're talking about. :P
Hawk9211 wrote:Take god ki,namekian book of legends(which seemingly only has stuff on sauna a) or even ultra instinct we do have some superficial explanations and they are supposedly important.But,how much they are expanded and focused on.We do get things like black zenkai or goku’s gain in top all of which is just saiyans are strongest warrior race with unlimited potential.My question is that does it even needs to be mentioned let alone focused and every time act like some mind blowing shit?
Yeah, the whole "whoa did you guys know that Saiyans are strong and stuff!?" shtick certainly doesn't warrant being brought up time and again unless there's something new or interesting being done with it. Black's near death powerups helping his soul and body fuse, or whatever exactly it was, is a pretty use of Saiyan physiology, so I'm down for that. Kale, and subsequently Broly, seems to be providing a new wrinkle on the nature of the Super Saiyan; it's obviously taken from older anime-only material, but it's now making its place in the main continuity, meaning that future Toriyama stories (if they're to happen) will invariably now take this stuff into consideration moving forward (making it actually important as an expansion on the lore, for once). Ultra Instinct was, again, built up as early as Resurrection F. God ki definitely seemed to go nowhere after Blue (and even then, the entire premise of it being undetectable seems to have been forgotten), so I'll give you that. The Namekian Book of Legends, however, never really felt like some big Chekhov's Gun to me. It'd be cool, but I've never expected it to be expanded upon in any significant way.

But Cipher's earlier point also rings true for me: the background lore doesn't need to be expanded to tell a good and interesting story. Though I'm definitely down for more, it's neither necessary for a good and interesting story, nor is it sufficient for one, in lieu of anything actually substantive.
Hawk9211 wrote:Multiverse is a large place?It is,however that doesn’t mean that we need to do the same bullshit as dbz.First,defeat the strongest guy in the universe then have someone from rra build something stronger than that on earth and then have some demons stronger than that from where.All of that happens because toriyama didn’t think about it,but now we have 12 universes.
Not sure what you're trying to say here.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TysonWine » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:51 am

Doctor. wrote:Unexpected threats that weren't foreseen are a must, or else the tournament is boring. In-universe, Kale and Kefla fulfill that role. For the audience, they don't, given their extensive screentime before the tournament.
I agree. This is a problem I had with the anime that the manga seems to be magnifying. There are no surprises in the tournament whatsoever. I remember before the TOP started in the anime, there were all these theories about the tournament possibly being interrupted and so forth. Yeah, some of these theories may have been a little wacky but it was the thought of the unknown that created interest. Where's the dark house? Talk about waiting for the inevitable.

How impressive is Kale's performance in this chapter? Well, we really don't know. Nobody she eliminated established themselves as a threat. We don't know how strong Anilaza is in the manga, and that's not a feather in Kale's cap because "fusions are supposed to be strong," which is apparently where Toyotaro was going with this. It says nothing positive about the writing that Kale's able to have a full chapter where she fights dozens of characters and there's no way to gauge her strength. We knew she was stronger than the other U6 Saiyans before this chapter. And of course, Goku and Frieza were holding back an unidentifiable amount so that makes that little skirmish pointless. And to make things worse, she couldn't handle the same Pride Troopers SSJ Goku had no problems with.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:12 am

Doctor. wrote: Nobody wants this because this is not a proper way to write a story either. Stop bringing up the anime when I keep telling you the anime is just as garbage.
I want it, and it is a proper way to tell a story. It's the most basic way to tell a story. You know, using background characters as a contrast for your heroes to show why your heroes are special. This is quite literally writing 101.
I don't understand how you can take "make the best out of each fighter to enhance the setting and complement our cast" and spin it to mean "let's make long fights and give every fodder character their own moment in the sun to pointlessly extend the tournament."
Because that's what most of these posts are asking for.

Because that's what you're asking for. You think you aren't, but you are. Didn't you read this chapter that was all about 3 new characters' dynamic, 2 of which were only introduced in this arc? Didn't you read the previous chapter that was all about Hit and Jiren?

Let's really look at this "making the best out of each fighter to enhance the setting and complement our cast," statement.

Making the best out of each fighter isn't something sensible since, at minimum, there's well over 60 fighters in the tournament. It's impossible to make each fighter a character and focus on them. I point you to the anime which tried and failed in spectacular fashion. The only way to tell this story is to focus on a set of core characters and to follow them through the tournament, which Toyotaro has done.

Which brings us to enhancing the setting. The setting is a battle royal. Let's explain what that is:
a : a fight participated in by more than two combatants; especially : one in which the last fighter in the ring or the last fighter standing is declared the winner
b : a violent struggle
The key bit is that there's more than two combatants, all fighting and struggling against each other. All trying to eliminate opposing members of each team. This setting is violent chaos. It is not an intimate setting like the Tenkaichi Budokais of the past. It isn't structured one on one fights. It's a free-for-all. To enhance this setting, you need to have quick eliminations that come from nowhere (Kale taking a large number of people), you need fights being interrupted (Kale attacking Vegeta, disrupting his fight with Toppo) and you need to see different strategies going at it (Pride Troopers taking Kale down). All of that was covered in this single chapter.

Now finally, characters that complement each other.

You're getting that out the ass here. Three saiyans all working together, where our Saiyans are all about individual strength. Jiren being a stark opposite to Goku, scoffing at interfering to help his friends. Kale's backstory tying into something Vegeta said back on Namek about the Saiyan of legend. It's all right there, my dude. All in this chapter.
You're either awfully unimaginative regarding character writing or you're misrepresenting me on purpose.
I understand you. I just vehemently disagree with you. It's that simple.
jeffbr92 wrote: This guy only argument to who ever criticizes the manga is to atack the anime, assuming people are biased fan boys when they actually think both have a lot of negative aspects
If that's all you choose to take from my posts, then that's a personal problem and not mine. I more than adequately describe the manga on its own merits. The anime only gets brought up when I feel the manga particularly outshone it in some regard. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I'm not going to stop doing it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Nickolaidas » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:58 am

Garbage chapter, for me. I hate fast eliminations, and the mange is even worse than the anime on that front. It definitely screams 'plot convenience', although the 'You think she's tough? Well, wait till you see Broly!' theory holds a lot of wait as well. But when you trash your arc in order to hype your next one … meh.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:02 pm

I really like Obuni's elimination. I like how he says that Gowas' philosophies have helped him make peace with his demise as he runs into a fight he can't win. It really gives the character and his universe a personality.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:08 pm

Doctor. wrote:Like it or not, this manga has repeatedly promoted itself as a sequel to Dragon Ball, the manga by Akira Toriyama, published from 1984 to 1995 in Weekly Shounen Jump, and we have all the right to judge it by the same standard. If it repeatedly falls short, then that's not our fault, it's nobody but Toyotaro's and Toriyama's (and Toei's).
Actually not man, even though not confirmed we could say the true sequel to the manga is the anime, the manga is just promotional material like Heroes.

But regard your previous saying, I see you would like this tournament to remain serious until the end, bet you were pretty disappointed by Zen-Oh revealing it was nothing but a test, eh?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OhHiRenan » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:10 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Like it or not, this manga has repeatedly promoted itself as a sequel to Dragon Ball, the manga by Akira Toriyama, published from 1984 to 1995 in Weekly Shounen Jump, and we have all the right to judge it by the same standard. If it repeatedly falls short, then that's not our fault, it's nobody but Toyotaro's and Toriyama's (and Toei's).
Actually not man, even though not confirmed we could say the true sequel to the manga is the anime, the manga is just promotional material like Heroes.
I think, even though it began as promotional material for the anime, the manga has solidified itself as a proper sequel alongside the anime at this point.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:43 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Like it or not, this manga has repeatedly promoted itself as a sequel to Dragon Ball, the manga by Akira Toriyama, published from 1984 to 1995 in Weekly Shounen Jump, and we have all the right to judge it by the same standard. If it repeatedly falls short, then that's not our fault, it's nobody but Toyotaro's and Toriyama's (and Toei's).
Actually not man, even though not confirmed we could say the true sequel to the manga is the anime, the manga is just promotional material like Heroes.
I think, even though it began as promotional material for the anime, the manga has solidified itself as a proper sequel alongside the anime at this point.
I agree with you, but with Toriyama deciding to write an animated movie by himself once again, it seems like Toyotaro’s manga is falling back into the promotional product thing it used to be before the U6 arc. I say this because it really feels like Toyotaro is rushing this arc so that he can jump into the Broly arc as soon as possible to help promote the movie worldwide. Which is a smart thing to do, of course, but also demotes the manga yet again and it is the reason why the current arc is so rushed compared to the Future Trunks arc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:51 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:I think, even though it began as promotional material for the anime, the manga has solidified itself as a proper sequel alongside the anime at this point.
That's just headcanon, you may question its quality, but the anime was always the main product who was promoted first by the author himself.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:53 pm

I feel like I would have enjoyed this arc so much more if it were just U7, U6, and U11. The other universes feel even more pointless in this version of the tournament than they did in the anime. It's because of this I'm left wondering why even bother including them when it's clear to me that Toyo wasn't going to do anything creative or interesting with them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:55 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
OhHiRenan wrote:I think, even though it began as promotional material for the anime, the manga has solidified itself as a proper sequel alongside the anime at this point.
That's just headcanon, you may question its quality, but the anime was always the main product who was promoted first by the author himself.
Another example of people not knowing what the word headcanon means.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OhHiRenan » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:56 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
OhHiRenan wrote:I think, even though it began as promotional material for the anime, the manga has solidified itself as a proper sequel alongside the anime at this point.
That's just headcanon, you may question its quality, but the anime was always the main product who was promoted first by the author himself.
In what way is that headcanon? That's not even a proper use of the term.
emperior wrote:
OhHiRenan wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:
Actually not man, even though not confirmed we could say the true sequel to the manga is the anime, the manga is just promotional material like Heroes.
I think, even though it began as promotional material for the anime, the manga has solidified itself as a proper sequel alongside the anime at this point.
I agree with you, but with Toriyama deciding to write an animated movie by himself once again, it seems like Toyotaro’s manga is falling back into the promotional product thing it used to be before the U6 arc. I say this because it really feels like Toyotaro is rushing this arc so that he can jump into the Broly arc as soon as possible to help promote the movie worldwide. Which is a smart thing to do, of course, but also demotes the manga yet again and it is the reason why the current arc is so rushed compared to the Future Trunks arc.
I think this last chapter was definitely rushed, but I do think it can lead to the next few chapters gaining some needed focus. Of course, it's also possible that the next chapters will speed through the ToP's content just as fast as this one so I could be wrong. I think whether or not the manga ends up falling back into promo material will really depend on how Toyo handles the rest of the tournament. I'm cautiously optimistic, though.
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