"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Pannaliciour » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:37 am

Miracles wrote:Just glad Toyotaro is keeping the feel of a battle royale where it's fast paced. So glad universes are getting X'd in a New York minute. He is going to focus all his attention on heavy hitters.
Wait isn't that a contradiction? Glad dat he keeps the feel of a battle royale but at the same time glad that universes are getting X'd?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:41 am

Miracles wrote:Just glad Toyotaro is keeping the feel of a battle royale where it's fast paced. So glad universes are getting X'd in a New York minute. He is going to focus all his attention on heavy hitters.
I do not think he did that with "hit" and namekians take it out very quickly and he did not even eliminate anyone

-----------------------------

ok I can acept that they like this version,but not me to me not unfortunately and I must say that the manga is not having any kind of development with the characters
that includes the main universes in the TOP

that kale eliminates everyone is really boring because if that were the case jiren or vegeta they would have eliminated everyone just because they are stronger

-additionally, it is very convenient that all are still, and nobody stops kale (goku, vegeta, jiren or gohan
-that kale does not attack anyone in the universe 7
-that kale is out of control but does not kill anyone and nobody is worried that he does

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:00 am

I guess I missed that battle royale you guys are all talking so glowingly about.

All I see are almost the exact some elements of the battle royale in the anime, being handled by a creator who is far less invested in the idea, and has so hurriedly streamlined the main stage of it in order to handle stuff his more familiar with.

Hopefully that means things are just going to go up from here.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:01 am

I think its pretty obvious the battle royale concept is not a good fit for DB. You either have to constantly contrive ways for the majorative fodder comprising the tournament to somehow compete (the anime) or you'll end with the logical conclusion of most of the contestants getting blasted out by one of the higher up (the manga).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:08 am

TKA wrote:
Exline wrote:Like Doctor said previously, no one is asking for a dedicated chapter for specific fighters, but for these characters to be used in interesting ways that give us an entertaining chapter to read. It's almost as if you are only interested in mindless action and not really anything else.
What's a more interesting way to be used than as fodder for Kale's transformation that doesn't result in more pages being eaten up by pointless characters the narrative has never asked us to even pay attention to, let alone actually care about?

"Mindless action" is what you get when there's just fights and every character getting their big moment in the spotlight. That's mindless, fanservicey and utterly devoid of artistic merit. Here, we're being told a story. That's what matters.

I sure would hate to see how people would react nowadays if the Saiyan arc was contemporary and Nappa was just trashing everyone. "Toriyama wasting Yamcha, Chaozu, and Tenshinhan! Why doesn't Krillin get a moment to shine? Etc."
You and others seem to refer to any other characters not among U6, U7 or U11 "fodder" or "pointless" because they don't matter that much to the story compared to them? So just because they're pointless means they can't be utilized to entertain us with new personalities and abilities/techniques?"

What about the 3 Tournaments in OG Dragon Ball? You're telling me just because Giran, Bacterian, Nam, Ranfan, Chaozu, Mercenary Tao, Yamcha, etc didn't win their battles means that they are pointless and irrelevant? Nearly every fighter I've stated gave us an interesting fight that we could be entertained by/invested in. Please explain to me how do you have people invested in your story without any entertainment factor? That's exactly what this manga has been for me these past few months.

Also your example is what I want. Character's struggling with their battles, built-up tension, injuries, planning their next attack, etc. This is shit I want to see and is what most likely made the Saiyan Arc so great in the eyes of many fans. I, AND ANYONE ELSE WITH A FUNCTIONING BRAIN WHO CAN DETERMINE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GOOD AND A BAD STORY, are not asking for characters to have their own dedicated episodes, but we ask for moments within the battle/story that intrigue us in some way.

Toyotaro is just giving us boring action sequences each months. Kale just shouts and everyone falls, Kale just punches people and they fall off, Kale grabs them and drops them off the stage... these are such boring eliminations that don't hold any weight because the characters that were eliminated were not utilized in any way to make me care for their elimination. That is the big problem here.

Just because we're going to see Goku vs. Jiren in the end doesn't mean any fight before it has to be so bland and boring. If Toyotaro had a more creative mind, he wouldn't be in such a hurry to eliminate so many characters in the most boring way possible.



On a side note, you all constantly refer to it as a coherent story when the Power scale has been out of wack more than the Super Anime has ever been. Are you guys just in denial or something and want to support the manga due to your massive hatred over the anime?

I also agree with JazzMazz how I do not sense any battle royale factor coming from this manga compared to the Anime's interpretation. I do not see/feel a chaotic nature coming from this arc.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:15 am

ekrolo2 wrote:I think its pretty obvious the battle royale concept is not a good fit for DB. You either have to constantly contrive ways for the majorative fodder comprising the tournament to somehow compete (the anime) or you'll end with the logical conclusion of most of the contestants getting blasted out by one of the higher up (the manga).
It really isn't difficult if you can properly manage the location of the fighters on the stage, who they will come across and fight, etc.

And if you're referring to a power hierarchy, simply categorize them via SSJ Levels to determine who would win/lose against who on the already broken power scale.


The Battle Royale is not a bad fit, but the structure of this arc (such as the bland arena everyone fights on top of) and the characters were not given too much attention to make the arc as engaging as it could possibly be. The idea of 8 unvierses fighting for the survival of only 1 is one of the greatest concepts in DB History, but it's just been so poorly executed. It's not the fault of the concept, but rather the laziness of Toriyama, the lack of creativity by Toyotaro, and the poor Direction of the Super Anime by Toei.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:14 am

ekrolo2 wrote:I think its pretty obvious the battle royale concept is not a good fit for DB. You either have to constantly contrive ways for the majorative fodder comprising the tournament to somehow compete (the anime) or you'll end with the logical conclusion of most of the contestants getting blasted out by one of the higher up (the manga).
thing is the weak being picked off first is exactly how battle royals work. Gladiatoral combat, the current team based MMA promotions etc.

What shocked me in the anime was that Kales big AOE blast didnt knock anyone out of the ring in the first place. At least here it makes a bit more sense that the scrubs went out and the herd was thinned.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:22 am

mahakaishin1991 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:I think its pretty obvious the battle royale concept is not a good fit for DB. You either have to constantly contrive ways for the majorative fodder comprising the tournament to somehow compete (the anime) or you'll end with the logical conclusion of most of the contestants getting blasted out by one of the higher up (the manga).
thing is the weak being picked off first is exactly how battle royals work. Gladiatoral combat, the current team based MMA promotions etc.

What shocked me in the anime was that Kales big AOE blast didnt knock anyone out of the ring in the first place. At least here it makes a bit more sense that the scrubs went out and the herd was thinned.
I'm aware that grunts get picked off, the problem is if we take that to it's logical conclusion, everyone but less than a dozen people should almost instantly get blown out of the arena considering DB fights tend to work. That's a BIG problem if you want to make a convincing battle royale. As Exline said above, the only way to really avoid is to make a list of what tier every character falls into and pair them up accordingly based on this. Otherwise you'll have people getting smashed effortlessly (the manga) or incredibly powerful people pointlessly holding back for no good reason (everyone worth a damn in the anime, especially Jiren).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:12 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
mahakaishin1991 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:I think its pretty obvious the battle royale concept is not a good fit for DB. You either have to constantly contrive ways for the majorative fodder comprising the tournament to somehow compete (the anime) or you'll end with the logical conclusion of most of the contestants getting blasted out by one of the higher up (the manga).
thing is the weak being picked off first is exactly how battle royals work. Gladiatoral combat, the current team based MMA promotions etc.

What shocked me in the anime was that Kales big AOE blast didnt knock anyone out of the ring in the first place. At least here it makes a bit more sense that the scrubs went out and the herd was thinned.
I'm aware that grunts get picked off, the problem is if we take that to it's logical conclusion, everyone but less than a dozen people should almost instantly get blown out of the arena considering DB fights tend to work. That's a BIG problem if you want to make a convincing battle royale. As Exline said above, the only way to really avoid is to make a list of what tier every character falls into and pair them up accordingly based on this. Otherwise you'll have people getting smashed effortlessly (the manga) or incredibly powerful people pointlessly holding back for no good reason (everyone worth a damn in the anime, especially Jiren).
Not really though, we saw them fighting at the start, all of them, the anime even depicts this. The weakest few went first, then we hit a half way point, then it carried on after it was signalled as such

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hawk9211 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:17 am

In order for everyone to be happy,we should have done on some universes before the tournament.Now,we are stuck between manga and anime version.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Aizamasu » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:49 am

Exline wrote:You and others seem to refer to any other characters not among U6, U7 or U11 "fodder" or "pointless" because they don't matter that much to the story compared to them? So just because they're pointless means they can't be utilized to entertain us with new personalities and abilities/techniques?"

What about the 3 Tournaments in OG Dragon Ball? You're telling me just because Giran, Bacterian, Nam, Ranfan, Chaozu, Mercenary Tao, Yamcha, etc didn't win their battles means that they are pointless and irrelevant? Nearly every fighter I've stated gave us an interesting fight that we could be entertained by/invested in. Please explain to me how do you have people invested in your story without any entertainment factor? That's exactly what this manga has been for me these past few months.

Just because we're going to see Goku vs. Jiren in the end doesn't mean any fight before it has to be so bland and boring. If Toyotaro had a more creative mind, he wouldn't be in such a hurry to eliminate so many characters in the most boring way possible.
The equivalent of Giran, Bacterian, Nam etc. in TOP are Toppo, Dyspo, Hit, Caulifla, Kale etc. They are going to get their own fights. Most of these "filler" characters who get eliminated without any effort are the equivalent of all the participants in the OG Tournaments that lost in the preliminaries without any effort against Goku and the others. You don't see anyone complaining about them.

And Toyotaro most likely has to end TOP before the Broly movie so of course he has to eliminated characters as quickly as possible. He could have eliminated a lot of characters better and I didn't like the last chapter but I have enjoyed the rest of the manga version of TOP more than the anime version.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:37 pm

If I didn't read the ToP arc and I only read comments from the fandom, I'd think that Kale eliminated 68 fighters in the first chapter. Other universes did have dedicated time, just not every last side character. I think that's fair.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:59 pm

Aizamasu wrote:
Exline wrote:You and others seem to refer to any other characters not among U6, U7 or U11 "fodder" or "pointless" because they don't matter that much to the story compared to them? So just because they're pointless means they can't be utilized to entertain us with new personalities and abilities/techniques?"

What about the 3 Tournaments in OG Dragon Ball? You're telling me just because Giran, Bacterian, Nam, Ranfan, Chaozu, Mercenary Tao, Yamcha, etc didn't win their battles means that they are pointless and irrelevant? Nearly every fighter I've stated gave us an interesting fight that we could be entertained by/invested in. Please explain to me how do you have people invested in your story without any entertainment factor? That's exactly what this manga has been for me these past few months.

Just because we're going to see Goku vs. Jiren in the end doesn't mean any fight before it has to be so bland and boring. If Toyotaro had a more creative mind, he wouldn't be in such a hurry to eliminate so many characters in the most boring way possible.
The equivalent of Giran, Bacterian, Nam etc. in TOP are Toppo, Dyspo, Hit, Caulifla, Kale etc. They are going to get their own fights. Most of these "filler" characters who get eliminated without any effort are the equivalent of all the participants in the OG Tournaments that lost in the preliminaries without any effort against Goku and the others. You don't see anyone complaining about them.

And Toyotaro most likely has to end TOP before the Broly movie so of course he has to eliminated characters as quickly as possible. He could have eliminated a lot of characters better and I didn't like the last chapter but I have enjoyed the rest of the manga version of TOP more than the anime version.
The reason why no one ever complains about the fodder getting knocked out so quickly in the og tournaments is because we never wasted much time on them. That's what I liked about the og tournaments is that it spent very little time on the fodder and it went right to the good stuff. But in this tournament they didn't do that and the fodder instead were an active part of it. So to me if your going to bother including them in the first place you might as well make some of them an interesting obstacle to overcome before we get to the big players. But as I've said many times before I don't think Toyo did a good job with that aspect as most of the fights with the fodder were as dull as dirt and weren't very creative. Which is why in retrospect I think it would been better to not include them at all and just focus on U7, U11, U6. To me it feels like even more waste of time to focus on them than it did in the anime. Not that I think the manga version of the tournament is bad its just been very boring for the most part to me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:10 pm

CriticalThinker wrote:
Aizamasu wrote:
Exline wrote:You and others seem to refer to any other characters not among U6, U7 or U11 "fodder" or "pointless" because they don't matter that much to the story compared to them? So just because they're pointless means they can't be utilized to entertain us with new personalities and abilities/techniques?"

What about the 3 Tournaments in OG Dragon Ball? You're telling me just because Giran, Bacterian, Nam, Ranfan, Chaozu, Mercenary Tao, Yamcha, etc didn't win their battles means that they are pointless and irrelevant? Nearly every fighter I've stated gave us an interesting fight that we could be entertained by/invested in. Please explain to me how do you have people invested in your story without any entertainment factor? That's exactly what this manga has been for me these past few months.

Just because we're going to see Goku vs. Jiren in the end doesn't mean any fight before it has to be so bland and boring. If Toyotaro had a more creative mind, he wouldn't be in such a hurry to eliminate so many characters in the most boring way possible.
The equivalent of Giran, Bacterian, Nam etc. in TOP are Toppo, Dyspo, Hit, Caulifla, Kale etc. They are going to get their own fights. Most of these "filler" characters who get eliminated without any effort are the equivalent of all the participants in the OG Tournaments that lost in the preliminaries without any effort against Goku and the others. You don't see anyone complaining about them.

And Toyotaro most likely has to end TOP before the Broly movie so of course he has to eliminated characters as quickly as possible. He could have eliminated a lot of characters better and I didn't like the last chapter but I have enjoyed the rest of the manga version of TOP more than the anime version.
The reason why no one ever complains about the fodder getting knocked out so quickly in the og tournaments is because we never wasted much time on them. That's what I liked about the og tournaments is that it spent very little time on the fodder and it went right to the good stuff. But in this tournament they didn't do that and the fodder instead were an active part of it. So to me if your going to bother including them in the first place you might as well make some of them an interesting obstacle to overcome before we get to the big players. But as I've said many times before I don't think Toyo did a good job with that aspect as most of the fights with the fodder were as dull as dirt and weren't very creative. Which is why in retrospect I think it would been better to not include them at all and just focus on U7, U11, U6. To me it feels like even more waste of time to focus on them than it did in the anime. Not that I think the manga version of the tournament is bad its just been very boring for the most part to me.
Agreed.

The mangaka behind Boku No Hero did a great job with the tournament in his series. Some battles were for gags while others were quick and made certain characters question their tactics, as well as the other fighters learning from their opponent as they watch the battle.

I don't understand why we can't get some of that in this Battle Royale.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:02 pm

This chapter was great. Breath of fresh air when compared to the anime. Really surprised to enjoy Kale and Kefla, as I outright despised them in the show. Toyo really delivered on writing them.

Also, I hope Gohan's fight is going to be sick. The pace has been pretty good so far, getting rid of the fodder nobody really cares about (and was mostly cringey to watch in the show), and this would be the perfect time to start slowing down and focusing on individual battles.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:59 pm

Pannaliciour wrote:Wait isn't that a contradiction? Glad dat he keeps the feel of a battle royale but at the same time glad that universes are getting X'd?
lol

Just and addition. Toyotaro is axing universes in a free for all setting. He has a warrior attacking indiscriminately and characters are collateral because of it.

Tai Lung wrote:I do not think he did that with "hit" and namekians take it out very quickly and he did not even eliminate anyone

-----------------------------

ok I can acept that they like this version,but not me to me not unfortunately and I must say that the manga is not having any kind of development with the characters
that includes the main universes in the TOP

that kale eliminates everyone is really boring because if that were the case jiren or vegeta they would have eliminated everyone just because they are stronger

-additionally, it is very convenient that all are still, and nobody stops kale (goku, vegeta, jiren or gohan
-that kale does not attack anyone in the universe 7
-that kale is out of control but does not kill anyone and nobody is worried that he does
Kale attacked Freeza and Goku from U7. She became more out of control and started attacking everyone without prejudice, even Caulifla.
Vegeta and Jiren are not wasting everybody cause they are conserving stamina. Compared to a Kale, who "lost her sense and reason."

BTW, Hit was developed on, more so in the manga than the anime. He understood that training his real power [ki] is what is important. Not just relying on gimmick time skip.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:13 pm

Exline wrote: Agreed.

The mangaka behind Boku No Hero did a great job with the tournament in his series. Some battles were for gags while others were quick and made certain characters question their tactics, as well as the other fighters learning from their opponent as they watch the battle.

I don't understand why we can't get some of that in this Battle Royale.
I've also read Boku no hero and I agree with all the points you made, it was a pretty good tournament overall. But to be fair it is more of a traditional tournament when compared to the TOP so I'm not sure it's fair to compare the two. I'd say a better comparison would be to the Provisional License Exam which also involved a huge group of people fighting one another. Now I haven't read through that arc in a while so my memory of it isn't the greatest but from what I can remember it utilized it's fodder in rather creative ways. Well at the very least well enough that I wasn't questioning why they were there in the first place like I do with the TOP.

As to why we couldn't get some of that in this tournament, I believe a lot of it has to do with having 80 characters fighting at once. Not to say Toyo is entirely blameless as he could have done a better job, it's just that having so many characters fighting at once was a mistake. Which is why I keep saying that this arc should have just focused on U7, U11, U6 as it's pretty clear that in either medium those are the only universes that really matter. To me having a smaller number of characters fighting would have been better overall as we would get more creative fodder fights. More of U7 would get to shine overall and we would also be able to get to the bigger players faster.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:07 pm

People are also quick to forget that the fodder in the anime were boring, unoriginal, and gimmicky. Mix that in with dull personalities and then why in god's name would we want to slog through a bunch of fights that nobody has any reason to care about. Glad Kale took care of them in one chapter.

The fighters in my hero academia were more fleshed out characters that had interesting personalities, who also fit into the overall story of the series.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:36 pm

TKA wrote:I sure would hate to see how people would react nowadays if the Saiyan arc was contemporary and Nappa was just trashing everyone. "Toriyama wasting Yamcha, Chaozu, and Tenshinhan! Why doesn't Krillin get a moment to shine? Etc."
Ignoring the fact nobody is asking for "moments", literally everyone in the Nappa fight got their own "moment to shine."

It's the difference between the way that the "disposable" characters were used during the Saiyan arc and the way they're being used in this arc that shows how thoughtless this arc is.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:52 pm

Doctor. wrote:
TKA wrote:I sure would hate to see how people would react nowadays if the Saiyan arc was contemporary and Nappa was just trashing everyone. "Toriyama wasting Yamcha, Chaozu, and Tenshinhan! Why doesn't Krillin get a moment to shine? Etc."
Ignoring the fact nobody is asking for "moments", literally everyone in the Nappa fight got their own "moment to shine."

It's the difference between the way that the "disposable" characters were used during the Saiyan arc and the way they're being used in this arc that shows how thoughtless this arc is.
Chaozu and Tien died for nothing, and people to this day still make fun of how pathetic Yamcha was. Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe got a moment, but not everyone.
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