"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:23 pm

A very plausible reason for strong characters not one-shooting everyone is lack of knowledge. Imagine Jiren rushing everybody just to be tripped out of the ring by Gamisaras.
There's a lot of uncertainty, you could also run into one of the strongest fighters there tiring yourself and giving a chance to weaker foes to defeat you.
In a fight you always start with the weaklings.

This doesn't justify everything but it does a lot for me to rationalize this. Specially when Toyotarõ has been caring about stamina and it's possible consequences.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:30 pm

I'd say the only reason that the manga version of Jiren is somewhat better than the anime one is that he started off better. But as far as I'm concerned both versions are overall terrible and uninteresting. And as far as tournament antagonists go in this series Jiren is easily the worst of the bunch.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:41 pm

CriticalThinker wrote:I'd say the only reason that the manga version of Jiren is somewhat better than the anime one is that he started off better. But as far as I'm concerned both versions are overall terrible and uninteresting. And as far as tournament antagonists go in this series Jiren is easily the worst of the bunch.
How is manga Jiren an terrible antagonist? He's just an super hero from another universe fighting to get an wish. He's simple but not terrible.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:43 pm

I think Jiren was just the wrong type of antagonist for a tournament arc. I believe this is the only tournament where the main rival was so significantly above everyone else and Goku too without Goku having an answer for that up his sleeve like he did with the Kaioken for Hit. Not only that but he doesn't have any transformations or anything like that so you have Goku and co stuck in a very small space with an overwhelmingly powerful foe who has immediate access to his full power and the only reason he doesn't immediately win is that it's a necessary weasel to have the story work.

He'd be much more suited to some type of adventure arc where the heroes aren't always stuck in his immediate vicinity and can retreat and regroup without the viewer having to deal with the fact that he's still sitting just a couple hundred feet away twiddling his thumbs until the narrative gives him the green light.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:19 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:I think Jiren was just the wrong type of antagonist for a tournament arc. I believe this is the only tournament where the main rival was so significantly above everyone else and Goku too without Goku having an answer for that up his sleeve like he did with the Kaioken for Hit. Not only that but he doesn't have any transformations or anything like that so you have Goku and co stuck in a very small space with an overwhelmingly powerful foe who has immediate access to his full power and the only reason he doesn't immediately win is that it's a necessary weasel to have the story work.

He'd be much more suited to some type of adventure arc where the heroes aren't always stuck in his immediate vicinity and can retreat and regroup without the viewer having to deal with the fact that he's still sitting just a couple hundred feet away twiddling his thumbs until the narrative gives him the green light.
It was made a point that Jiren was saving his power for the strongest foes. He didn’t want to consume his stamina fighting weaker fighters that Dyspo or Toppo could take care of.
Jiren may have been incredibly strong but at the end he was also extremely worned out, and a weakened Goku and Freeza were to beat him.
Yes, the whole thing could have been handled better, but in general I think that made sense in the grand scheme of things. Maybe Toyotaro will handle the final part of the tournament better.
And both the mediums still had to come up with excuses as to why Jiren doesn’t ring out as many people as possible. In the anime he’s just arrogant and wants to leave the small fries to his teammates, while in the manga he doesn’t want to be responsible of an universe’s erasure.
In both the stories though he is conserving his energy, which makes sense. He just had no idea Goku would master UI there.
Jiren had all the rights to act that way, in my opinion. And he was a good character to have in a battle royale tournament, as in the end he also showed how teamwork can beat raw power.
The ending basically showed how in front of a enemy as powerful as a God, mortals can still win if they trust each others, even in front of divergences in the case of Goku and Freeza. And Vegeta helped too by giving his last ounce of energy to Goku.
Maybe the end of the tournament is meant to have a bigger thematic meaning in the future.
For me, it has a meaning. And I liked it a lot.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:53 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Cipher's post also doesn't really work for anime Jiren to me since I never get the impression he has any kind of sense of justice. Much less that he associates power itself as a form of justice, nor do I feel he's kind anything approaching a desire to prevent tragedies that have happened to other people. Even after Goku earns his legitimate respect, Jiren STILL won't use the wish of the Super DBs to revive everyone who's been killed by Zeno in the tournament. Now, this might be Jiren's selfish desire manifesting as a pigheaded adherence to itself but it doesn't really work if you're trying to explore the idea of him having some altruism and it doesn't really help explain why he bothers with the Pride Troopers at all.
That's exactly the contradiction. Jiren has set goals for his strength—applications for it—which are nominally tied to protecting others, but which also manifest in his selfish and backward-looking desire to right the tragedies of his past (the wish he'd reluctantly sell out the other universes for, which would have seen everyone erased, and which also serves as the motivation for his solitary training). This runs in direct opposition to Goku, who is all-avarice in his basic conduct, but so ambivalent toward anything not involving his own fun or training that he'll gladly give up his own opportunities for personal gain in order to help others. Goku has no application in mind for his strength beyond personal challenge, but that's also what allows him to do things like use his wishes to save total strangers, or to inspire former enemies to do so.

Neither Goku nor Jiren are wholly self-consistent (not in a bad way; in an understandable one), but the ways in which their personal contradictions manifest stand in direct contrast to one another. Which is the important part.

All of this is horribly communicated in the anime, and we don't yet know if it'll be sold better in the manga (though at least the early beats of Jiren reluctantly deciding to forsake his morals in order to get his wish help). But I can see what they were going for.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:29 pm

A.T to Toei guys : “Jiren is a character who doesn’t speak.”
Nameless warrior , unnecessary.. those kinds of sentences fits well on Jiren ..
I think toyo put on him too many sentences in his introduction pre-tournament with more talking than almost anyother new character ..
manga Jiren is more talkative for sure .. and apparently more dependent , doesn’t need Belmont to get into his mind to tell him you can move now and fight ..
I.m.o Jiren needs to show us his bast power in a bigger manner a.s.a.p , and kefla is an opportunity .
Manga Jiren is not as scary as anime Jiren for now ...
Anyways I think t.o.p is not about antagonist fighters , it is about antagonist ideologies ( trust - selfjustice )
U7 is mostly trust , protect each other and Jiren-Belmont look kinda selfish , even in the manga , Jiren is a mixed of justice and selfishness, because he decline to enter in the tournament ( his justice sense ) until he heard about the dragon ball wishes ( selfish) and his selfishness won his internal conflict . Pride troopers is a crew of people with different ideologies , not so attach to each other , and u7 has big bondings that goku created in The Whole series .
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:02 pm

prince212 wrote:A.T to Toei guys : “Jiren is a character who doesn’t speak.”
Nameless warrior , unnecessary.. those kinds of sentences fits well on Jiren ..
I think toyo put on him too many sentences in his introduction pre-tournament with more talking than almost anyother new character ..
manga Jiren is more talkative for sure .. and apparently more dependent , doesn’t need Belmont to get into his mind to tell him you can move now and fight ..
I.m.o Jiren needs to show us his bast power in a bigger manner a.s.a.p , and kefla is an opportunity .
Manga Jiren is not as scary as anime Jiren for now ...
Anyways I think t.o.p is not about antagonist fighters , it is about antagonist ideologies ( trust - selfjustice )
U7 is mostly trust , protect each other and Jiren-Belmont look kinda selfish , even in the manga , Jiren is a mixed of justice and selfishness, because he decline to enter in the tournament ( his justice sense ) until he heard about the dragon ball wishes ( selfish) and his selfishness won his internal conflict . Pride troopers is a crew of people with different ideologies , not so attach to each other , and u7 has big bondings that goku created in The Whole series .
Interesting take... we defintly know Belmod isn't the most compassionate and honest guy in the universe..hahaha (the guy played possum so he could stomp an injured berrus or queitela).
Universe 11 do seem to have good chemistry, I mean the fodder 7 pride troopers seem to be able to fight really well togther. So I don't think "trust" will be a problem for universe 11.
Manga Jiren seems to be a Batman and superman fusion. He has the strength of superman, but has the persona of an batman so it may explain why he talks a little more. He is a super hero after all, can't be a mute like Hit.
Manga Jiren is pretty intidmating, I mean he foddered Manga Hit (stronger then even anime hit) and mssj blue goku (stronger then regular blue) quite easily. I think it's because we all expect UI and know how it ends so that's why we aren't really fretting. Plus Manga Jiren dosen't really rely 100% on his power and uses a lot of witzs (Out-smarting Hit) and is also using cauation (running away from damon) in this tourney, which may turn off some people who expect jirens character in the manga to be like in the anime. Some Ultra mute brute who relies soley on his power to get it done, which can appeal to an causal, but if it hurts having actaul character personaility which is why I appcriate manga Jiren.
Plus using witzs and caution with much power can be even more dangerous then show-offs.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:26 pm

1345521 wrote: Manga Jiren seems to be a Batman and superman fusion. He has the strength of superman, but has the persona of an batman so it may explain why he talks a little more. He is a super hero after all, can't be a mute like Hit. .
I see your point , but a regular superhero is not gonna decline the offer of a tournament that is gonna put life’s at risk , and let their fate to others , he’s gonna be there to stop the fight somehow and won’t stay passive like he wanted until he heard about the wish for him , not for the humanity. He’s a fishy hero , at the end he’s first and then the rest
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by 1345521 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:48 pm

prince212 wrote:
1345521 wrote: Manga Jiren seems to be a Batman and superman fusion. He has the strength of superman, but has the persona of an batman so it may explain why he talks a little more. He is a super hero after all, can't be a mute like Hit. .
I see your point , but a regular superhero is not gonna decline the offer of a tournament that is gonna put life’s at risk , and let their fate to others , he’s gonna be there to stop the fight somehow and won’t stay passive like he wanted until he heard about the wish for him , not for the humanity. He’s a fishy hero , at the end he’s first and then the rest
That's an totally understnable perspective, Vegeta, But I don't think of it like that. When Jiren declined offering to defend universe 11 in the ToP, I thought of it as extremly noble. Because it showed that protecting universe 11 citizens and bringing justice upon evil-doers comes first (except the wish..but i'll get to that). If Universe 11 gets erased, then that's nature doing its thing. Why should Jiren defend his universe at the cost of other universes dying in the process, what good is that? And if they win, he returns to fighting evil even though HE himself just killed off 7 other universes so he can continue to be an "hero" for his universe? don't you see the irony there? he's particpating doing mass extinction just so he can defend his duty of playing hero? You can say "No, he's defending his universe". Well he alrady defends his universe by stopping evil...I guess what I'm saying Jiren declining to "defend" universe 11 at the cost of erasing other universes was quite noble.

Now to the wish...Hey. Super hero aren't perfect beings. People like to think only anti-heroes can be imperfect...so can super heroes. Batman probably has weakneses, so does superman (not only physically but like mental and internal). They are creatures as well who probably have selfish ambitions (albeit "NoN CaNoN" injustice Superman is a great example of how super heroes may not be perfect). To question Jiren's work as an super hero just because he has a wish (he probably keeps Hidden from others and deep in him..I doubt it effects his work as an hero at all - the fact that belmod knows about this wish...I wonder what the heck kinda of connection belmod and Jiren have that even vados is obvlous too) he'd do anything to get is kinda brash. Because I doubt his wish interfers with his daily superhero work. His wish is probably like something utterly unattainable through normal means so it dosen't really effect his job, but is something if had the chance would do ANYTHING to get. Maybe this wish is to the benfit of all, and not just something personal and only to himself.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:15 am

1345521 wrote: Why should Jiren defend his universe at the cost of other universes dying in the process, what good is that? And if they win, he returns to fighting evil even though HE himself just killed off 7 other universes so he can continue to be an "hero" for his universe? don't you see the irony there? he's particpating doing mass extinction just so he can defend his duty of playing hero? You can say "No, he's defending his universe". Well he alrady defends his universe by stopping evil...I guess what I'm saying Jiren declining to "defend" universe 11 at the cost of erasing other universes was quite noble.
.
What I'm trying to say ( sorry this is my second language) , is that a real hero is going to the tournament not to eliminate the other universes or defend his universe, he’s going there to stop it and don’t let any universe disappear
And seems like his reason to go after knowing about the dragon balls is not to wish the universes erased back ...
But I can take that’s he’s an imperfect hero that is able to let his fate in others hands and assume that he has limits because of previous traumas ...
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:25 am

prince212 wrote:
1345521 wrote: Why should Jiren defend his universe at the cost of other universes dying in the process, what good is that? And if they win, he returns to fighting evil even though HE himself just killed off 7 other universes so he can continue to be an "hero" for his universe? don't you see the irony there? he's particpating doing mass extinction just so he can defend his duty of playing hero? You can say "No, he's defending his universe". Well he alrady defends his universe by stopping evil...I guess what I'm saying Jiren declining to "defend" universe 11 at the cost of erasing other universes was quite noble.
.
What I'm trying to say ( sorry this is my second language) , is that a real hero is going to the tournament not to eliminate the other universes or defend his universe, he’s going there to stop it and don’t let any universe disappear
And seems like his reason to go after knowing about the dragon balls is not to wish the universes erased back ...
Jiren is a hero, but he's not the hero of the story. Goku can even be viewed as a danger to society for most of the series, but he's the hero of the story. Good person =/= Protagonist. That's my take on Jiren's morals.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:31 am

Bergamo wrote:
prince212 wrote:
1345521 wrote: Why should Jiren defend his universe at the cost of other universes dying in the process, what good is that? And if they win, he returns to fighting evil even though HE himself just killed off 7 other universes so he can continue to be an "hero" for his universe? don't you see the irony there? he's particpating doing mass extinction just so he can defend his duty of playing hero? You can say "No, he's defending his universe". Well he alrady defends his universe by stopping evil...I guess what I'm saying Jiren declining to "defend" universe 11 at the cost of erasing other universes was quite noble.
.
What I'm trying to say ( sorry this is my second language) , is that a real hero is going to the tournament not to eliminate the other universes or defend his universe, he’s going there to stop it and don’t let any universe disappear
And seems like his reason to go after knowing about the dragon balls is not to wish the universes erased back ...
Jiren is a hero, but he's not the hero of the story. Goku can even be viewed as a danger to society for most of the series, but he's the hero of the story. Good person =/= Protagonist. That's my take on Jiren's morals.
Akira Toriyama stated in an interview shortly after DBZ ended that he was upset and disappointed with the portrayal of Goku in the anime. According to Toriyama, he never intended for Goku to be a righteous hero. Toriyama intended for Goku to be a selfish and self-centered man who really only cared about fighting. Goku does not primarily fight for others, he fights mostly for his own enjoyment. The reason he does so many questionable things throughout the series and endangers the lives of his friends and family is because he puts himself before them. Goku, or the manga portrayal of him at least, was never meant to be a good person nor a role model.
But I agree that goku always ended up as a hero
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:55 am

I just got the english vol 3 of the manga and it sucks that VIZ didn't correct the Zeno button and the Gowasu and Whis dialogue. It's weird cause in the Japanese volume it's corrected.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:11 am

IM21 wrote:I just got the english vol 3 of the manga and it sucks that VIZ didn't correct the Zeno button and the Gowasu and Whis dialogue. It's weird cause in the Japanese volume it's corrected.
Lazy asses didn't bother to check and just went for the bonus pages. Let's hope that doesnt happen with the next volume, where Toyotaro added two more pages to Vegito's fight

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:29 am

mute_proxy wrote:
IM21 wrote:I just got the english vol 3 of the manga and it sucks that VIZ didn't correct the Zeno button and the Gowasu and Whis dialogue. It's weird cause in the Japanese volume it's corrected.
Lazy asses didn't bother to check and just went for the bonus pages. Let's hope that doesnt happen with the next volume, where Toyotaro added two more pages to Vegito's fight
Yea those Vegito extra pages were the first thing that came to my head when i saw how they didn't correct this. And they had a lot of time for this. The Japanese one has been out for a year so it's really pathetic.
Anyway, I always also get the original version. They are like 4$ and the back cover is great.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BanterTheGreat » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:14 am

I never even knew there were extra pages, the longer the Vegito fight is, the better. The original version was really short, so anything extra is appreciated.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:21 pm

IM21 wrote:
mute_proxy wrote:
IM21 wrote:I just got the english vol 3 of the manga and it sucks that VIZ didn't correct the Zeno button and the Gowasu and Whis dialogue. It's weird cause in the Japanese volume it's corrected.
Lazy asses didn't bother to check and just went for the bonus pages. Let's hope that doesnt happen with the next volume, where Toyotaro added two more pages to Vegito's fight
Yea those Vegito extra pages were the first thing that came to my head when i saw how they didn't correct this. And they had a lot of time for this. The Japanese one has been out for a year so it's really pathetic.
Anyway, I always also get the original version. They are like 4$ and the back cover is great.
That really sucks . Vol.3 changes were not big ones , but those extra pages for vol.4 ..
4$ Japanese vols.? Tell me where , Amazon is 16$
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:25 pm

prince212 wrote: That really sucks . Vol.3 changes were not big ones , but those extra pages for vol.4 ..
4$ Japanese vols.? Tell me where , Amazon is 16$
You got them on cdjapan. I got 6 volumes for around 30 bucks with shipping.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:28 pm

IM21 wrote:I just got the english vol 3 of the manga and it sucks that VIZ didn't correct the Zeno button and the Gowasu and Whis dialogue. It's weird cause in the Japanese volume it's corrected.
What were these corrections?
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