"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Miracles
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:08 pm

emperior wrote:
TKA wrote:
emperior wrote: There’s surely a difference, you are right, but this doesn’t excuse Toyotaro for literally copying old panels from the manga.
Listen.

If all the anime did was was copying animation frames from the original Z, I would've just rolled my eyes and not pay any attention to that. I don't care about that stuff beyond an eyeroll or sometime a "oh, that's neat". You don't see me complaining about the anime copying Broly fight choreography for Kale, or whatever.

What the anime does is steal whole beats from the original though. Let's look at an example with this fight:

Goku fights him and does better than everyone else, but Opponent is holding back. Opponent decides to take Goku just a wee bit seriously. Opponent beats the shit out of Goku. Goku is revealed to have been using Kaioken the whole time to try to keep up. Goku busts out the spirit bomb. It fails. Goku transforms to a new form. Goku proceeds to beat the shit out of Opponent.

Am I talking about Goku vs Jiren or Goku vs Frieza?
I thought you stopped seeing the anime around episode 100? Because it shows by this post. I don’t deny how the Goku vs Jiren fight borrowed 2-3 elements from the Namek one, and I don’t deny how I would have preferred it to play a little differently.
But first of all, Goku didn’t do better than “everyone else”. Jiren had just fought Kale and Maji Kayo before him.
Second, Goku didn’t fare that better than those two. He was just able to stay on the ring and Jiren decided to wait for Goku to gather energy for his strongest attack, to take it head on with his absolutely power and to show everyone how he was the strongest on the ring. Quite different from Freeza’s fight. The bit about it being revealed that Goku was always fighting at his best is the same in the manga, so...
For last, Goku transformed out of nowhere because he failed with the Genkidama, not due to anger like on Namek and Jiren was literally unscathed by the Genkidama, unlike Freeza. Even then, Omen doesn’t do shit to Jiren except landing a knee to his stomach and dodging each of Jiren’s attacks. Then it ends and Jiren finishes Goku but fails to ring him out due to Hit attacking him. It’s only 20 episodes later that Goku manages to beat Jiren, and even then they fight on an almost equal level.

If you are going to keep attacking the anime for its downfalls, at least make sure you watch it. In your case, finish it or at the very least watch the episodes you are criticizing, which are 109 and 110 for your information.
I don’t come here to bash the manga chapters I haven’t read. I have read all of it, I have praised it whenever I felt like it deserved praise and criticized it whenever I felt it needed to be criticized. The same is for the anime. I expect you to do the same if you intend to discuss about it.
You missed TKA's point. He wasn't trying to point out who Goku did better than nor was he talking about the different details of how the events of the fight played out. He is simply saying that the narrative foundation of Jiren vs Goku was based on Freeza vs Goku in Namek. Doesn't matter if Jiren waited for Goku to use the Genki dama unlike Freeza getting stalled so Goku can use it on Namek or that Goku got a new transformation a different way, the order of events of the TOP fight still flowed similarly to Namek's story.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:00 pm

emperior wrote: I thought you stopped seeing the anime around episode 100? Because it shows by this post. I don’t deny how the Goku vs Jiren fight borrowed 2-3 elements from the Namek one, and I don’t deny how I would have preferred it to play a little differently.

If you are going to keep attacking the anime for its downfalls, at least make sure you watch it. In your case, finish it or at the very least watch the episodes you are criticizing, which are 109 and 110 for your information.
I don’t come here to bash the manga chapters I haven’t read. I have read all of it, I have praised it whenever I felt like it deserved praise and criticized it whenever I felt it needed to be criticized. The same is for the anime. I expect you to do the same if you intend to discuss about it.
Brah, read my comment and turn off this "he attacken da anime" mindset. I compared the beats of both fights as an example. Calm down.

This isn't even broad generalizations. These beats are so specific and come in such an order in the Frieza fight that you'd have to actively be copying it to match those beats in the same order. This isn't reaching. Don't try to detract from my point with personal attacks and the like, chum.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:24 pm

Noah wrote:
Bergamo wrote:I don't know how you expect every single panel to look unique. The real issue is the ATATATATA panels where a character punches from the right of the page to the left. That's a super lazy way to show who has the advantage in a battle.
Not unique, but not exactly equal, see? We had some of these in the original manga, but were more directed to locations than the fights, I just expect more variations.
When a panel from the ToP looks similar to a panel from BoG, you have to think to yourself, "does this matter?" Did you really stop reading a new chapter to go back and look at a page from Vol. 1 because you thought they might be similar?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:15 am

TKA wrote:
emperior wrote: I thought you stopped seeing the anime around episode 100? Because it shows by this post. I don’t deny how the Goku vs Jiren fight borrowed 2-3 elements from the Namek one, and I don’t deny how I would have preferred it to play a little differently.

If you are going to keep attacking the anime for its downfalls, at least make sure you watch it. In your case, finish it or at the very least watch the episodes you are criticizing, which are 109 and 110 for your information.
I don’t come here to bash the manga chapters I haven’t read. I have read all of it, I have praised it whenever I felt like it deserved praise and criticized it whenever I felt it needed to be criticized. The same is for the anime. I expect you to do the same if you intend to discuss about it.
Brah, read my comment and turn off this "he attacken da anime" mindset. I compared the beats of both fights as an example. Calm down.

This isn't even broad generalizations. These beats are so specific and come in such an order in the Frieza fight that you'd have to actively be copying it to match those beats in the same order. This isn't reaching. Don't try to detract from my point with personal attacks and the like, chum.
I am calm, I do not know where or when it appeared like I wasn’t and I definitely didn’t personally attack you. So please, read my comment and turn off this passive aggressive mentality every time someone points out something in your posts against the anime. If you aren’t willing to discuss what you write, why are you even here?
I would prefer it if you countered my arguments instead of waving them off and going all defensive.

I will restart, then. From what you are saying, would you consider the Namek fight to be a copy of the first Goku vs Vegeta fight? Because those fights are as similar as Goku vs Jiren is to the Namek fight. They hit the same beats, you know.
I am not saying these three fights do not share similarities, but to say that they are the same is just not true. Which is what you are saying.
Even then, those beats in Super are all hit within the span of half an episode (109). It happens so fast it could be almost considered an homage. It doesn’t alter the point of the narrative, so one could consider it to have as much weight as the constant homages and references Toyotaro draws.

I would also like to know if you ever watched past episode 100. I bet you wouldn’t be too pleased if someone came here criticizing the manga without having even read all of it.
I am here to discuss the manga but I just can’t stay put when reading baseless and incorrect bashing of the anime by someone who hasn’t even finished it, and whom I have never seen criticizing the manga.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:11 am

emperior wrote: I am calm, I do not know where or when it appeared like I wasn’t and I definitely didn’t personally attack you. So please, read my comment and turn off this passive aggressive mentality every time someone points out something in your posts against the anime. If you aren’t willing to discuss what you write, why are you even here?
Let me walk you through this.

You're not calm because you're not thinking rationally. You're not reading my posts and not getting my points. You fundamentally don't understand what I'm saying. I know it isn't my fault that you're not understanding, since Miracles got it:
Miracles wrote: You missed TKA's point. He wasn't trying to point out who Goku did better than nor was he talking about the different details of how the events of the fight played out. He is simply saying that the narrative foundation of Jiren vs Goku was based on Freeza vs Goku in Namek. Doesn't matter if Jiren waited for Goku to use the Genki dama unlike Freeza getting stalled so Goku can use it on Namek or that Goku got a new transformation a different way, the order of events of the TOP fight still flowed similarly to Namek's story.
So yes, I think you should calm down and actually read what I say instead of making wild interpretations of what I said.

Next, let's look at the personal attack thing. What you're doing is a discrediting tactic: argumentum ad hominem. Let me give you a few examples:
emperior wrote:I thought you stopped seeing the anime around episode 100? Because it shows by this post.
emperior wrote:If you are going to keep attacking the anime for its downfalls, at least make sure you watch it.
You're trying to discredit me instead of tackling my argument, which you've refused to engage with. You're trying to say my point has no value because I am not informed enough to make that point. They're two completely separate things. You literally cannot deny that the scenario I described played out exactly as I described, so instead you try to shift the goalposts to discussing me as a person.

That is argumentum ad hominem. Don't do that. If you're going to post something about TKA as a person, don't. I won't even remember your name after I hit "submit." That's how these discussions should go.

Finally, if all people did was point out flaws in my comparisons to the anime, then this thread would be a lot less annoying. Instead, all you do is "don't attack da anime! don't compare to da anime!" etc. None of you have ever provided a substantive rebuttal in the anime's defense, instead choosing to personally attack/discredit, change the subject or engage in whataboutisms.
I would prefer it if you countered my arguments instead of waving them off and going all defensive.
There is nothing to counter. I made an irrefutable point.

It's impossible to tell if I described the Jiren fight or the Frieza fight here. That was kind of the whole point of the comparison:
TKA wrote:Goku fights him and does better than everyone else, but Opponent is holding back. Opponent decides to take Goku just a wee bit seriously. Opponent beats the shit out of Goku. Goku is revealed to have been using Kaioken the whole time to try to keep up. Goku busts out the spirit bomb. It fails. Goku transforms to a new form. Goku proceeds to beat the shit out of Opponent.
emperior wrote:I will restart, then. From what you are saying, would you consider the Namek fight to be a copy of the first Goku vs Vegeta fight?
And finally, this is a whataboutism and I don't care about it, and I won't engage in a discussion about it as it has nothing to do with what I said.

Goku vs Vegeta and Frieza vs Goku are radically different, but even if they weren't, I wouldn't care since it has nothing to do with my point. It's like if I said "There's forest fires in California" and you immediately reply "Yeah, well there's forest fires in Greece too." Okay? I don't care about what's happening in Greece though. That's a whataboutism.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzk1999 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:42 am

It’s not hard to tell what fight you described though. Goku didn’t beat the shit out of Jiren when he first transformed,
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:11 am

TKA wrote:
Noah wrote:
That's funny, cause that's exactly what the manga do!

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]
Hi.

I'm sure you, as a reasonable person, can see that there's a clear difference between referencing old panels from the original manga and reskinning wholesale narrative cues from the original.
Both are creatively bankrupt and take any semblance of identity away from the work.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Exline » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:09 am

Man, it's like the same 3 arguments keep happening everytime I log on here.

On the topic of Toyotaro reusing panels, I think I'll still consider it references because he just uses 1 panel instead of multiple frames like the anime would do.
I really liked the reference in the Battle Of Gods Exhibition Match where Beerus would try to escape from Mosco's Grasp similar to Kid Goku against Major Metallitron.
I wonder if anyone's discovered any others instead of the same 5 panels lol.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:43 am

Exline wrote:Man, it's like the same 3 arguments keep happening everytime I log on here.

On the topic of Toyotaro reusing panels, I think I'll still consider it references because he just uses 1 panel instead of multiple frames like the anime would do.
I really liked the reference in the Battle Of Gods Exhibition Match where Beerus would try to escape from Mosco's Grasp similar to Kid Goku against Major Metallitron.
I wonder if anyone's discovered any others instead of the same 5 panels lol.
Yeah this thread is going in circles.

One reference I rarely see mentioned is Vegeta using the same attack he killed Nappa with on Cabba. In my opinion it's the best reference in all of Super because it's not just an homage but it connects to the character progression and how the same action now means something radically different from before.

Lately I haven't caught many reused panels. Toyotarõ abused this and I don't enjoy it because it mostly screams lack of confidence and/or creativity in it's insertion. Hopefully he's doing it less and it's just not me failing to see it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:34 pm

LightBing wrote:
One reference I rarely see mentioned is Vegeta using the same attack he killed Nappa with on Cabba. In my opinion it's the best reference in all of Super because it's not just an homage but it connects to the character progression and how the same action now means something radically different from before.

Lately I haven't caught many reused panels. Toyotarõ abused this and I don't enjoy it because it mostly screams lack of confidence and/or creativity in it's insertion. Hopefully he's doing it less and it's just not me failing to see it.
If it was still happening frequently, you’d definitely hear it in this thread lol
Dbzk1999 wrote:It’s not hard to tell what fight you described though. Goku didn’t beat the shit out of Jiren when he first transformed,
Thanks for the correction. He had a semi even fight with Frieza after Frieza got serious for real this time. He didn’t beat the shit out of Frieza either if we’re gonna be super literal. They’re the same fight, my guy.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by superfan2024 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:53 pm

Such a pointless argument you guys are having up there...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:09 pm

So how bout that Gohan vs Kefla

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:39 pm

It's time for Gohan to shine and use all if any tricks or trump cards. Logically, Kefla should roflstomp him, but Gohan can do something to annoy Kefla in the meantime.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:16 pm

When do you think UI will be introduced ? In the anime it was introduced in Omen 20 episodes before the final fight and mastered one was achieved yet the manga is nearing the end with no signs of it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:27 pm

sintzu wrote:When do you think UI will be introduced ? In the anime it was introduced in Omen 20 episodes before the final fight and mastered one was achieved yet the manga is nearing the end with no signs of it.
I'm assuming we're just getting 128 and on for UI
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:29 pm

I wonder if Toyotaro will grow a pair and be edgy while drawing the beatdown Gohan will give to Kefla
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:42 pm

Noah wrote:I wonder if Toyotaro will grow a pair and be edgy while drawing the beatdown Kefla will give to Gohan
Fixed.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:56 pm

Noah wrote:I wonder if Toyotaro will grow a pair and be edgy while drawing the beatdown Gohan will give to Kefla
Yeah I don't know about this one....Gohan shouldn't beat Kefla but you never know with Toyotaro

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:31 pm

Are you guys seriously doubting of the Saiyan with highest potential (said by Vegeta himself) of the Universe 7?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:32 pm

Noah wrote:I wonder if Toyotaro will grow a pair and be edgy while drawing the beatdown Gohan will give to Kefla
Guro is some dark shit, my man.
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