"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Pannaliciour]

Watch jiren eliminate both of them before they can get their fight started

Gohan won't be eliminated by Kefla or Jiren because i thought Toriyama wrote the script of each z fighter who get eliminated. In the anime it was Dyspo i think

Not really. Tien and 18 got eliminated by different opponents in the manga.

Really? I thought the staff of the anime said in a interview that Akira wrote who eliminated the Z fighters one for one.

[potat_lasaro]

Gohan won't be eliminated by Kefla or Jiren because i thought Toriyama wrote the script of each z fighter who get eliminated. In the anime it was Dyspo i think

Not really. Tien and 18 got eliminated by different opponents in the manga.

Really? I thought the staff of the anime said in a interview that Akira wrote who eliminated the Z fighters one for one.

I don't remember the exact interview but I know what you're talking about since they used Piccolo losing as an example. But what Toriyama probably wrote in the outline for Gohan is "he has a battle where he has to use his wits and strength while teaming up with another U7 teammate. In the end he realizes the only way to win is sacrifice himself so his teammate knocks both Gohan and his opponent off the fighting stage".

Personally I don't want Gohan to get knocked off yet (especially since Roshi is still there and I want him to make the final five for U7 due to bias), but I wouldn't be surprised if they turn Gohan vs Kefla into the Dyspo vs Gohan and Freeza fight from the anime when it comes to how it ends.

[Big Black Sayian]

I can see Gohan sacrificing his self against Kefla just like the Dyspo in the anime

[MyNiggaGoku]

On another topic, I think I found an interesting tidbit while I was reading chapter 31. In the panel where the TV broadcaster says that the people Cell killed were brought to life, we can see the rich man 1st form Cell absorbed.

I don't know if that was mentioned before, but it's very nice to see Toyo adding such details to the story.

[Green_Goblin]

On another topic, I think I found an interesting tidbit while I was reading chapter 31. In the panel where the TV broadcaster says that the people Cell killed were brought to life, we can see the rich man 1st form Cell absorbed.

I don't know if that was mentioned before, but it's very nice to see Toyo adding such details to the story.

NICE! I hadn't paid attention to that while reading the chapter originally! Yeah, Toyotaro is known for paying attention for these details and giving easter eggs of it from time to time. Just look at Mr. Satan's suit in that very chapter, it was taken from [/same suit he wore in] Dragon Ball GT.

[Marlowe89]

Hold the phone. This is what people were losing their marbles over?

Let's break this down.

Ultra Instinct is an advanced martial arts technique that makes all power gaps irrelevant. No, seriously; that's literally its entire purpose. Roshi, a martial arts master with 300 years of experience under his belt, managed to obtain an imperfect bootleg version of Ultra Instinct. Therefore, Roshi can dodge and fight Jiren for a brief period of time. Baaasic fucking logic. Anyone who paid attention to those descriptions shouldn't have an issue with this from a power scaling standpoint because, contrary to popular belief, it makes sense. From a thematic standpoint, I guess it's more debatable.

Gohan was explicitly said to have battle potential surpassing that of Goku and Vegeta, god forms included, in Chapter 6. Goku explained that some Potara gains can be minimal or even diminishing back when he mulled over fusing with Mr. Satan in the original manga. The gap between Caulifla and Kale is significant, and Vados said that Kefla possesses Kale's raw power combined with Caulifla's prowess. Kale might not even be stronger than Golden Freeza if he was honest about not taking her seriously. It's more vague than it should be, but these guys can exist virtually anywhere on the scale. Therefore, Gohan can fight on par with Kefla. Also makes sense.

So why all the temper tantrums? Was it worth going on all these hilariously cartoonish tirades and demanding the author be fired over some out-of-context scans? If several consecutive months of this community almost constantly blowing shit out of proportion and acting comically obtuse over "inconsistencies" (?????) that turned out to be clarified after the chapter's release won't teach us to forego those kneejerk reactions, I don't know what will. There wasn't a single thing this month that wasn't foreshadowed or thoroughly explained, just like every other chapter.

I'm not surprised. I'm not even mad. Just disappointed, embarrassed, and also mildly amused that after all this time, a lot of the fandom still apparently has no clue what Ultra Instinct is. On the flipside, we got some top tier memes out of this awful debacle at least.

[ekrolo2]

Hold the phone. This is what people were losing their marbles over?

Let's break this down.

Ultra Instinct is an advanced martial arts technique that makes all power gaps irrelevant. No, seriously; that's literally its entire purpose. Roshi, a martial arts master with 300 years of experience under his belt, managed to obtain an imperfect bootleg version of Ultra Instinct. Therefore, Roshi can dodge and fight Jiren for a brief period of time. Baaasic fucking logic. Anyone who paid attention to those descriptions shouldn't have an issue with this from a power scaling standpoint because, contrary to popular belief, it makes sense. From a thematic standpoint, I guess it's more debatable.

Gohan was explicitly said to have battle potential surpassing that of Goku and Vegeta, god forms included, in Chapter 6. Goku explained that some Potara gains can be minimal or even diminishing back when he mulled over fusing with Mr. Satan in the original manga. The gap between Caulifla and Kale is significant, and Vados said that Kefla possesses Kale's raw power combined with Caulifla's prowess. Kale might not even be stronger than Golden Freeza if he was honest about not taking her seriously. It's more vague than it should be, but these guys can exist virtually anywhere on the scale. Therefore, Gohan can fight on par with Kefla. Also makes sense.

So why all the temper tantrums? Was it worth going on all these hilariously cartoonish tirades and demanding the author be fired over some out-of-context scans? If several consecutive months of this community almost constantly blowing shit out of proportion and acting comically obtuse over "inconsistencies" (?????) that turned out to be clarified after the chapter's release won't teach us to forego those kneejerk reactions, I don't know what will. There wasn't a single thing this month that wasn't foreshadowed or thoroughly explained, just like every other chapter.

I'm not surprised. I'm not even mad. Just disappointed, embarrassed, and also mildly amused that after all this time, a lot of the fandom still apparently has no clue what Ultra Instinct is. On the flipside, we got some top tier memes out of this awful debacle at least.

Honestly? I really like what's done with UI here. It makes the technique something more than another power up, it's got to do with your personality & state of mind over how much shit you can blow up. I regret some of my own snide comments about this development on Twitter now.

Bonus points for Goku actually being a little introspective for once too. His line about being a bad student will probably piss people off too but he really isn't a good one: he follows Roshi's lesson of living life to the fullest but not really the other one about punishing evil wherever you find it, certainly not as he's gotten older.

[Dragon Wukong]

I really liked this chapter. All the call-backs to old DB dialogue as a means to help Goku unlock Ultra Instinct, culminating in Roshi briefly having a go at Jiren, was pretty damn great.

My only regret is Kale/Gohan didn't get a longer fight. Maybe it'll be longer in the volume like Vegito vs Zamasu. I give the chapter a 8/10.

[MajinMan]

Judging from how people were freaking out over this chapter, I was expecting it to be extremely bad. After reading, while I didn’t think it was good at all, it wasn’t the shitstorm I thought it would be.

Let me get to my main problem with this chapter: Kefla vs Gohan. Honestly, what the hell is this? Is this a fight? Because this might be the least interesting fight I have seen in Dragon Ball in a while. Gohan just shows up, takes on this threat thats been building up for the past two chapters or so, and... nothing. This is the lamest shit I have seen so far in this arc. And to top it all off, Kefla literally sucked off U7 before she got wringed out, going all “I guess it was fate to die to you strong U7 guys hehe.” Then we end it with a quick deletion of U6. Just end this damn arc already, it’s not worth anyones time.

Now the Roshi thing I expected to be worse than it was. It wasn’t really bad at all. I liked Goku recalling all his teachers and learning that the way he’s been fighting hasn’t been efficient. Roshi dodging and blocking Jiren is a little too much, but the message was clear. I also really like Roshi so I might be biased. I also liked how Roshi took out Kahseral.

Vegeta vs Toppo is basically the side show, so nothing to really say about that.

And finally, Ultra Instinct. It was... brief. Didn’t really do anything. Does not compare to the excitement of the anime version at all. Kind of a big let down. What’s the point of him accessing the form for 2 pages and then losing it right away? It built zero hype for the form. Wouldn’t it be better to at least have Goku throw a punch before he loses it? All that criticism aside, I liked the way he got it in the manga, being inspired by Roshi. It’s a nice change compared to the anime version.

I’ve come to accept that the manga version of this arc just doesn’t do it for me at all. I used to think people were crazy when they said the US arc was the worst in the series (the anime version is in my top 8 arcs), but I can now say that the manga version of this arc is in my bottom 3. It’s just so incredibly boring and rushed.

[OLKv3]

Wow amazing chapter as always, Toyotaro owning the shit anime once again!

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

This is such a mixed bag for me.

How do you end off last chapter with readers looking forward to Gohan vs Kafla and then barely show off that fight in this chapter? Also, Gohan says "I choose to keep evolving as a human, not a Saiyan. I'm not relying on my Saiyan blood anymore." ...Okay...?

Goku vs Jiren feels like a whole lotta nothing happening in the manga. It's such a boring fight. It honestly feels like they're having some light sparring rather than an actual battle for their universes. I'd hate to go into a whole anime vs manga thing, but Goku vs Jiren in the anime felt huge. It felt completely different to all the other battles in the ToP. I don't know if it's because Toyotaro's having trouble in creating a sense of scale, but there's just something missing here. There's no excitement at all. Maybe that's because I've already seen most of this through the anime.

I love that moment where Goku's recalling the things he's been taught by all his mentors, and that it took Roshi to remind him. But I'm sorry, I do not buy Roshi being able to dodge some of Jiren's attacks just because of his knowledge in martial arts. This is Jiren we're talking about here, the most powerful mortal warrior these characters have ever come across. How does Jiren manage to make Hit look like a total bitch but has some trouble trying to attack Roshi?

Now, Ultra Instinct. I like Goku's speech leading up to the transformation... but that's about it. Being able to tap into the form just from some advice? What?? Again with the anime comparison (I'm sorry), but Goku had to tank a fucking Genki Dama and survive a goddamn black hole just to be able to tap into Ultra Instinct Omen for the first time. I get that Toyotaro wants to do things differently, but this just didn't do it for me. Also, we barely saw the form in action.

Don't really know what to think of this chapter. Didn't hate it. Didn't like it.

[Cetra]

Anyone who paid attention to those descriptions shouldn't have an issue with this from a power scaling standpoint because, contrary to popular belief, it makes sense.

No, it does not. Jiren was even good enough to cancel out the entire auto-dodge of Completed Ultra-Instinct so that Goku was not able to 100% of the time make all attacks of Jiren useless so Jiren is obviously good enough to at least be comparable to Ultra-Instinct using Fighters like Goku . If the manga Jiren cannot keep up with this at all, not even a pseudo-Ultra Instinct then this is a farce of a "strongest mortal of all time" - no matter how much he "holds back". Even Freeza kept up with SSJ Goku for a while.

[mute_proxy]

Anyone who paid attention to those descriptions shouldn't have an issue with this from a power scaling standpoint because, contrary to popular belief, it makes sense.

No, it does not. Jiren was even good enough to cancel out the entire auto-dodge of Completed Ultra-Instinct so that Goku was not able to 100% of the time make all attacks of Jiren useless so Jiren is obviously good enough to at least be comparable to Ultra-Instinct. If the manga Jiren cannot keep up with this at all, not even a pseudo-Ultra Instinct then this is a farce of a "strongest mortal of all time" - no matter how much he "holds back". Even Freeza kept up with SSJ Goku for a while.

Stongest =/= fastest

[Cetra]

Stongest =/= fastest

I never said that so that comment was totally unnecessary. It also does not matter if he is not the fastest (if that is even true; who would actually think Freeza was slower than Baata), because he nonetheless made Completed Ultra-Instinct "not at all 100% auto-dodge" and kept up with Goku before Goku got really pissed and all that Jiren could do simply because of the overkill character that he is.

[TKA]

Fucking A!

Toyotaro gets dragonball. Not just the spirit of it, but also the world-building. I love how they pointed out why the Kaioken is flawed, because Goku has never really benefited from its usage except that one time with Nappa (and he could've beaten Nappa without it).

The Universe 6 sendoff only worked because Champa and Kafla were so well-characterized beforehand, so when they started acting "out of character," here, that tells the reader how forlorn the conclusion is. Great work on that front.

Also, great callback to the whole Namek/Saiyan arc with Roshi and the scouter thing. The Earth characters always had a spiritual aspect to their ki that allowed them to triumph in those arcs where the aliens used technology to gauge strength. Roshi specifically mentioning Vegeta and Frieza was a nice touch, since powering up is all those two care about, with spirituality being damned. And then the callbacks to all of Goku's other teachers to justify this lesson: fucking A!

And that's an okay reference to the anime's iteration of the fake Ultra Instinct without all the fluff and filler.

The only negative I can see is last chapter's cliffhanger was Gohan squaring up with Kafla, but the bulk of that fight happened mostly offscreen here.

Overall, a fantastic chapter.

[VegettoEX]

Wow amazing chapter as always, Toyotaro owning the shit anime once again!

This is not a worthwhile contribution, and a strike has been issued against your account. Account strikes add up to temporary/permanent bans, which revoke access to the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website.

And because it unfortunately needs to be stated, account strikes are never issued for opinions; they are issued in cases of flagrant disregard for the community guidelines, which all members agreed to (twice) prior to registration. You are allowed to dislike things; you do, however, have to actually explain why if you are going to take the time to make a post.

Strive for something more. Antagonistic drive-by comments are not welcome, and strikes will be issued liberally.

Stongest =/= fastest

Likewise, this in and of itself is not a worthwhile post.

[Zamasu55]

Did... did Goku really use Kaiohken?

[ekrolo2]

Did... did Goku really use Kaiohken?

No, he just tried to forcibly power up similar to Kale.

[IM21]

Ok, people were really shitting way too much before the translation. I also don't like some of the things but its not as bad as some people were saying. The biggest problem I have is that the Gohan vs Kefla was 5 pages. Wtf Toyo?! You don't tease the fight last month just to make it ofscreen. I hope he makes more pages for the volume release like he did with the Vegito vs Zamasu. This arc is getting really boring to me, the same was in the anime. At first I was hoping it would last long, but now I am all for it to end in the next 3 months.

[JazzMazz]

Was hoping for a really solid chapter, didn't get that sadly.

These chapter is awful, and displays a fundamental lack of understanding of storytelling and Dragonball and its characters in general.

Things I liked, Champa's realization his going to be erased was nice.

Thats about it.

The Gohan vs Kefla fight not being shown in its entirety, really diminishes whatever grand build up or point there was whatso-ever for focusing on the universe 6 Saiyans, not to mention, it makes everything that came prior feel extremely forced, almost like he was treating the universe 6 Saiyans as a plot device to get rid of the other characters, before getting rid of them in one of the lamest fights in the series, partly because its not even shown. Due to that, there is no real emotional pay off for the finale, it doesn't really characterize either fighter particularly well.

I'm going to say it, I didn't enjoy the Roshi glorification in the anime, and I think its even worse here, and not by any small margin either, its infinitely worse. Roshi doesn't have, and shouldn't have anything to teach Goku, his simple message about living life was the most important message of his training, and the most actual growth aspect of this training was carrying the shells. Outside of that, Roshi doesn't have anything to offer. His an inferior teacher to guys like Karin, Popo, Kaio and Whis and Goku is a far more skilled martial artists then Roshi, even when it comes to things like fighting sense and movement(those were things that were mainly elaborated upon in Popo's training).
Roshi shouldn't be having any sort of hand to hand with Jiren whatsoever. Not only does he not have the movement skills that Goku learnt from better masters, but its also been shown that even with those skills, someone who is far stronger can overcome that sort of gap, thats why Raditz was able to instantly punk Goku in the Saiyan arc, in spite all his training that made him a more skilled martial artist than Roshi.

Which brings us to the biggest problem with this chapter in my opinion, Goku's characterization. For some reason, Goku has absolutely devolved into this more power sterotype fighter that people constantly mock him for being, even though his not. Goku is not a guy that needs to be re-taught the very fundamentals, his more than aware of them, and even in previous arcs of this manga has shown to be an extremely competent fighter that utilized this fundamental idea's to his advantage. For example, out predicting the time-skip, or using ones energies in bursts, or using ones energy in the most efficient way possible are all teachings that go as far back as Popo. Goku just all of a sudden forgetting these basic fundamentals just screams to me of Toyo just wanting to chuck in a neat reference to his past teachers and glorify Roshi for some reason.

Goku is not a bad student, if anything, his the greatest prodigy(with the exception of Gohan) in the series. He not only surpassed all his prior masters, but perfected there key techniques better than they did, and thats a pretty constant theme across Goku's journey.

Overall, think this is most fan fictiony chapter to ever be released, and it has killed a lot of my hopes about Toyotaro telling a more effective story now that the Battle Royale is over. Hell, its even bought into question for me if Toyo actually understands Dragonball and its characters.

Overall, really awful chapter, didn't appreciate hardly any of the creative decisions made. Took one of my least favourite aspects from the anime and bloated it out of control.

Well, hope next chapter is better.