"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:57 pm

People are acting like Roshi himself taught Ultra Instinct to Goku. Can't people receive advice, specially in a extreme situation like this?
If your teacher gives you advice on how to study after you passed his grade do you tell him to piss off because "he shouldn't be able to teach you anything"?

Roshi tells Goku to recall 20 plus years of training to try and find an solution to the problem he has been trying to answer ever since he found out about Jiren; no probably since he's been training under Whis. He's giving perspective for Goku to find answer that only he can uncover because of all his experience.

Likewise for Goku when pushed to the edge goes for an answer that under normal circumstances he wouldn't give. Have you even been in a tight spot and did something stupid or the only thing you could think off? Is Goku supposed not be human and make no mistakes?
Freaking Cell dissed Trunks for increasing his power while losing speed and did the same thing when Gohan was kicking his ass!

Characters aren't perfect beings they are supposed to be flawed. Had Goku come up to Jiren at the start and said power was his solution I would be all over Toyotarõ. But after fighting Jiren for a while and going nowhere, we see in the previous panel before powering up Goku hurt and sweating realizing this was his limit. There's a situation people have to recognize.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:02 pm

Miracles wrote:Exactly. It's like Full power Blue being a carry on of Full power Super Saiyan from the Cell saga.
The Cell Arc? You mean the one where Goku specifically pointed out that just swelling up your ki like that for raw power was a bad move?
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Soul Breaker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:04 pm

jplaya2023 wrote:goku is being drawn wrong in this chapter he only get's skinny using ssj red
He's not being drawn wrong. That's Toyotaro's version of the form, which is, more in line with Toriyama's 'version'.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:06 pm

Okay. This chapter was bullshit. But it's still better than anime.

Roshi evading Jiren was REALLY dumb, but Goku achieving UI Sign this way is MUCH better than being blasted by his own genki dama and appearing with UI out of nowhere. This was actually nice throwback with all Goku's teachers appearing and that even now Goku still learned something.

Gohan being able to touch Kefla was REALLY dumb, but still better than her being beaten by Goku who once again got UI for no reason. Her character was portrayed much better in manga and much more likeable. I never cared for her in anime, she was a bit annoying, but in manga i actually would like her to survive a bit longer.

So yeah, this chapter was nowhere as bad as people say. It only had issues with power levels but other than that it was interesting.

I honestly don't mind Kefla being nerfed in manga. The only problem is that Kale could fight Golden Frieza and Kefla should be way stronger than her.
If Kale was weaker then it would be actually good. Gohan at least got really relevant opponent in manga so it's better that he fought Kefla instead of Goku.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:20 pm

lord turbo wrote: I strongly disagree, DB has always mainly been about power levels so I'm going to nip this revisionist hidtory about this series in the bud. First, Roshi already stated in the narrative he had nothing to teach Goku or Kuririn since they were already well-adapted martial artist, his training consisted entirely of strength increasing and nothing else.

Roshi even stated that Goku has far surpasswd him as a martial artist and that he has nothing left to teach him. This is a problem with Toriyama's DB on a whole since the character of Goku peaked as a super mystical kung fu martial artist when he was trained by Mr. Popo, every since then Toriyama hit a ceiling and had nowhere else to take Goku creatively so he has him forget the things he mastered and further improved, the character goes in a circle in progression and even gets new flaws retroactively added to him that he did not possess beforehand to further push this silly narrative.

Whis's training is identical to Korin and Mr. Popo's training beat for beat. Skills only mattered when opponents where near equal in stats, but Toriyama has such a hard on for exaggerated power levels he focuses entirely on making the next big nad several times stronger than the last as some empty attempt.pf escalation to make the series more exciting even though he peaked there when he had Roshi nuke the moon, lol.

If fighting skills/techniques actually mattered this would have been shown with Tao Pai Pai vs Goku, yet it wasn't and the main point was Goku meeded to get stronger, not better as a fighter to beat Tao. This thing with Roshi in my opinion is just nonsensical jibberish that really doesn't understand the basic theme and logic of DB as a whole.

Its far too late to try an pretend skills/techniques matter at this point in the series.
Actually, the concept of power levels wasn't even introduced until DBZ because of scouters. Then guidebooks went back and told us the power levels of characters during Dragon Ball. The original Dragon Ball was about martial arts. Goku did in fact learn things from Korin before his fight with Tao Pai Pai. This involved catching Korin and this helped him minimize unnecessary movements. It wasn't just climbing the tower and getting stronger. Goku and Vegeta have reached their saturation points for zenkai. They aren't going to break their limits now just by raising their power level. They do need to focus on technique. In DBZ, it made sense that the series focused on Goku going through the Super Saiyan levels because he needed to close the power gap between him and his opponents, otherwise regardless of his technique, he wouldn't be able to do any damage. However, now, it is backwards. He does need to revisit some fundamentals. It happens to real martial artists in real life including MMA fighters who win several competitions and they train their body a lot, only to lose later on. Then, they revisit fundamentals and get back their rhythm. If you want DB to continue down the path of just higher power level means you win the fight, then that's going to be a boring show. Toriyama never wanted this.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:21 pm

I can't believe most of Gohan v Kefla was fucking off panel!

I heard it mentioned when the chapter was being leaked but I didn't think it was this bad.

Yup and more character assassination for Goku so he can 'grow' again... to think that at one point Goku had no kanji/symbols on his gi as he had surpassed the need for a martial arts master.

And I find it hilarious that Roshi '300 years of martial arts experience lol' wasn't useful at any point during the Z portion of the manga until he's been wanked to high heaven recently :lol:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Venus » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:36 pm

Easily one of the worst chapters of the manga...

While I like Roshi the most of all the human cast, I hate what happened in this chapter, if Roshi was capable to last so long against Jiren it makes you wonder why he didn't fight against Freeza, Cell or Buu.

The way how Goku attained UI was pure bullshit, I mean it's not like if having a Genki-dama backfired at you is any better but come on, also I didn't like how Goku was able to talk while in that state, the best about it in the anime was that Goku remained silent all the time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:42 pm

Bergamo wrote:It's interesting that the chapter closest to the anime's power scaling is the one that gets the most hate.
-Gohan is blue tier in the anime and that's fine.
-Gohan defeats a slightly above blue tier opponent and that's awful.
-Jiren takes an entire episode to knock out base Vegeta and fails twice and that's fine.
-Jiren takes four pages to defeat Roshi and that's horrible.
No, people didn't like Gohan competing with a SSB Goku. Did ya see the Dragon Ball Super Strength Thread at the time?

Did you entirely miss the reaction to the episode where Jiren eliminates Vegeta? I don't believe you did. People disliked that so much they were attacking Toshio on Twitter. That doesn't fall under the definition of "fine".

People say the anime is better than the manga. Others say the manga is better than the anime. I too have my preference, but honestly, in my eyes, both the anime and the manga haven't been very great with regards to this arc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:46 pm

emperior wrote:Which absolutely makes sense. Those foes were probably that strong exactly because they were martial artists. Even Raditz was telling Goku he would need more training to keep up with him.
Freeza was keeping up with Goku even after he turned into a Super Saiyan.
Goku beat Piccolo because he was a slightly better martial artist and played his cards better, as they were equal power-wise.
I always thought so too, which is why it was nice to get confirmation on it from the anime.
LightBing wrote:People are acting like Roshi himself taught Ultra Instinct to Goku. Can't people receive advice, specially in a extreme situation like this?
If your teacher gives you advice on how to study after you passed his grade do you tell him to piss off because "he shouldn't be able to teach you anything"?

Roshi tells Goku to recall 20 plus years of training to try and find an solution to the problem he has been trying to answer ever since he found out about Jiren; no probably since he's been training under Whis. He's giving perspective for Goku to find answer that only he can uncover because of all his experience.

Likewise for Goku when pushed to the edge goes for an answer that under normal circumstances he wouldn't give. Have you even been in a tight spot and did something stupid or the only thing you could think off? Is Goku supposed not be human and make no mistakes?
Freaking Cell dissed Trunks for increasing his power while losing speed and did the same thing when Gohan was kicking his ass!

Characters aren't perfect beings they are supposed to be flawed. Had Goku come up to Jiren at the start and said power was his solution I would be all over Toyotarõ. But after fighting Jiren for a while and going nowhere, we see in the previous panel before powering up Goku hurt and sweating realizing this was his limit. There's a situation people have to recognize.
Goku's flawed in any other number of ways besides this. Goku's understanding of fighting is supposed to be his virtue. Even in a stressful situation, yes, I'd expect him to be able to know what does and doesn't work, and not lose his grip like Cell did. Also, we didn't see Goku try anything else other than power, so I don't know how you can say that wasn't his plan the entire time. And it's a problem in and of itself that Goku was able to fight Jiren for so long without anything changing.

Roshi didn't simply advise Goku to think about the situation and come up with an answer. That would be fine. He didn't even hint at the answer, which wouldn't be fine but would still be better. No, he flat out gave him the answer. That's not a teacher helping you study. Yeah, Goku still had to have the talent to follow through, but after you just established he lacks fight IQ I'm not exactly thrilled by that.

So, he's the worst apprentice ever? He wasn't already trying to maximize his movements, as a master of martial arts should and as he was previously taught? He hasn't been honing his spirit, a princple of controlling ki and getting stronger? He wasn't already trying to master Whis's teachings, which he's been training at for years?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:50 pm

Venus wrote:Easily one of the worst chapters of the manga...

While I like Roshi the most of all the human cast, I hate what happened in this chapter, if Roshi was capable to last so long against Jiren it makes you wonder why he didn't fight against Freeza, Cell or Buu.

The way how Goku attained UI was pure bullshit, I mean it's not like if having a Genki-dama backfired at you is any better but come on, also I didn't like how Goku was able to talk while in that state, the best about it in the anime was that Goku remained silent all the time.
Roshi last so long ? Is that a joke ? He was knocked out at the very first contact.
Attaining point of Ultra instinct... I can’t see a better option, tell me one better .. all of them are gonna be fictional , don’t look for sense in a fictional comic world .
Ultra instinct lasting few seconds was bad , so bad , but I guess is on the plot to the final master of the form .
And keeps the hype for the next chapter , most likely somebody has to save goku right now , at that it’s gonna be freeza
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:51 pm

Does anyone know by chance how many chapters we have left?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:56 pm

CriticalThinker wrote:Does anyone know by chance how many chapters we have left?
I think 2 chapters to the end of the tournament.. the reason is the 15 min stated at the beginning of this last chapter, and it seems that every chapters covers 5 min . So we have 10 min remaining aprox.
September: toppo dyspo vegeta out
October : final clash
November: wishes and after tournament
December : brodick
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:58 pm

LightBing wrote:People are acting like Roshi himself taught Ultra Instinct to Goku. Can't people receive advice, specially in a extreme situation like this?
If your teacher gives you advice on how to study after you passed his grade do you tell him to piss off because "he shouldn't be able to teach you anything"?

Roshi tells Goku to recall 20 plus years of training to try and find an solution to the problem he has been trying to answer ever since he found out about Jiren; no probably since he's been training under Whis. He's giving perspective for Goku to find answer that only he can uncover because of all his experience.

Likewise for Goku when pushed to the edge goes for an answer that under normal circumstances he wouldn't give. Have you even been in a tight spot and did something stupid or the only thing you could think off? Is Goku supposed not be human and make no mistakes?
Freaking Cell dissed Trunks for increasing his power while losing speed and did the same thing when Gohan was kicking his ass!

Characters aren't perfect beings they are supposed to be flawed. Had Goku come up to Jiren at the start and said power was his solution I would be all over Toyotarõ. But after fighting Jiren for a while and going nowhere, we see in the previous panel before powering up Goku hurt and sweating realizing this was his limit. There's a situation people have to recognize.
You're missing the point. No ones bagging on GOku for needing advice, it's because that in order for Goku to require this specific advice, Toyo had to retroactively regress Goku's character and force him to forget all the lessons he's learned when he wouldn't be such a good fighter if he hadn't learned these lessons. It makes Goku look like an inexperienced clown who thought swelling his raw power was a good idea on it's own. It's a textbook example of doing away with traits of another character, making them look stupid for the sake of making a different character look good. Especially when it's Roshi teaching Goku things that Goku himself has already taught others.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:04 pm

People keep throwing around Roshi's 300 years of "experience" despite the fact that dude was a hermit for YEARS before Goku came around added to the fact that King Piccolo was the only big bad he factually has encountered. This speaks volumes to how much more actual experience Goku has over him. Goku has faced beings from all over the multiverse on top of mastering styles and techniques from all over the multiverse. It is beyond my realm of understanding (maybe I'm just a dumbass) how people can keep giving some kind of excuse for Roshi when Roshi is easily the least skilled of all of Goku's masters, along with having faced opponents that couldn't dream of moving fast enough for whatever crude version of UI would be required to dodge even a fraction of a percentage of Jiren's level of physical ability.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:04 pm

prince212 wrote: I think 2 chapters to the end of the tournament.. the reason is the 15 min stated at the beginning of this last chapter, and it seems that every chapters covers 5 min . So we have 10 min remaining aprox.
September: toppo dyspo vegeta out
October : final clash
November: wishes and after tournament
December : brodick
Pretty close to the end I see, thanks for the info. Hopefully Toyo is able to nail the last few fights and ending.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:11 pm

Kanassa wrote:
LightBing wrote:People are acting like Roshi himself taught Ultra Instinct to Goku. Can't people receive advice, specially in a extreme situation like this?
If your teacher gives you advice on how to study after you passed his grade do you tell him to piss off because "he shouldn't be able to teach you anything"?

Roshi tells Goku to recall 20 plus years of training to try and find an solution to the problem he has been trying to answer ever since he found out about Jiren; no probably since he's been training under Whis. He's giving perspective for Goku to find answer that only he can uncover because of all his experience.

Likewise for Goku when pushed to the edge goes for an answer that under normal circumstances he wouldn't give. Have you even been in a tight spot and did something stupid or the only thing you could think off? Is Goku supposed not be human and make no mistakes?
Freaking Cell dissed Trunks for increasing his power while losing speed and did the same thing when Gohan was kicking his ass!

Characters aren't perfect beings they are supposed to be flawed. Had Goku come up to Jiren at the start and said power was his solution I would be all over Toyotarõ. But after fighting Jiren for a while and going nowhere, we see in the previous panel before powering up Goku hurt and sweating realizing this was his limit. There's a situation people have to recognize.
You're missing the point. No ones bagging on GOku for needing advice, it's because that in order for Goku to require this specific advice, Toyo had to retroactively regress Goku's character and force him to forget all the lessons he's learned when he wouldn't be such a good fighter if he hadn't learned these lessons. It makes Goku look like an inexperienced clown who thought swelling his raw power was a good idea on it's own. It's a textbook example of doing away with traits of another character, making them look stupid for the sake of making a different character look good. Especially when it's Roshi teaching Goku things that Goku himself has already taught others.
That is the crux of the issue.

It simplifies Goku's character to being a person who focuses solely on strength to win a battle rather than taking account strategy, cunning and other tactics. It's made even worse by the fact that Goku himself lambasted the idea of focusing on nothing but power to win a fight during the Cell arc and by the fact that in Super itself Goku has won fight when focuses on other tactics beyond how strong he can get or how hard he can hit.

This chapter made Goku look like a novice in martial arts, when in reality, he's the most naturally gifted and adaptable fighter in all of Dragon Ball. Seriously, the writing of Goku annoyed me so much in Chapter 39. I honestly think it borders on character assassination.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:25 pm

Simere wrote:Goku's flawed in any other number of ways besides this. Goku's understanding of fighting is supposed to be his virtue. Even in a stressful situation, yes, I'd expect him to be able to know what does and doesn't work, and not lose his grip like Cell did. Also, we didn't see Goku try anything else other than power, so I don't know how you can say that wasn't his plan the entire time. And it's a problem in and of itself that Goku was able to fight Jiren for so long without anything changing.

Roshi didn't simply advise Goku to think about the situation and come up with an answer. That would be fine. He didn't even hint at the answer, which wouldn't be fine but would still be better. No, he flat out gave him the answer. That's not a teacher helping you study. Yeah, Goku still had to have the talent to follow through, but after you just established he lacks fight IQ I'm not exactly thrilled by that.

So, he's the worst apprentice ever? He wasn't already trying to maximize his movements, as a master of martial arts should and as he was previously taught? He hasn't been honing his spirit, a princple of controlling ki and getting stronger? He wasn't already trying to master Whis's teachings, which he's been training at for years?
He did the exact same thing against Vegeta and Freeza, wreck his body when nothing else works because the opponent is far too strong.
He did something similar against Pure Boo by using a form which is detrimental and not attaining victory when he should. Goku's incredibly flawed, which doesn't take away from his batle genius but it exists and it's not sporadic.
You' are right that we aren't shown much but it's implied he did all he could think off.

Dragon Ball never entered into great detail about martials arts so it's difficult not to mesh everything together but the context here is Ultra Instinct. A technique Beerus doesn't dominate, it may sound simple but it isn't. Goku isn't a dumbass for not solving a problem most Hakaishin weren't able to solve and if they are like Beerus they may have been receiving training for thousands of years!
Kanassa wrote:You're missing the point. No ones bagging on GOku for needing advice, it's because that in order for Goku to require this specific advice, Toyo had to retroactively regress Goku's character and force him to forget all the lessons he's learned when he wouldn't be such a good fighter if he hadn't learned these lessons. It makes Goku look like an inexperienced clown who thought swelling his raw power was a good idea on it's own. It's a textbook example of doing away with traits of another character, making them look stupid for the sake of making a different character look good. Especially when it's Roshi teaching Goku things that Goku himself has already taught others.
I see no regression. In the fight we don't see Goku rejecting previous teachings. They simply weren't enough against Jiren and when pushed against the wall he went for last resort measure which he tried before(see my answer above).
Ultra Instinct is the compound of all the previous teachings together, Goku needed Muten Roshi to give perspective to understand and with that mindset answer the question himself. Which isn't was simple as how it seems. Like I said not even Beerus has mastered this bloody technique.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:31 pm

HeroR wrote:
The thing that stands out is Toyo contradicted himself. Even in the Super manga, Goku is shown to be a master by how he outsmarted Botamo instead of going to his full power, figures out how to counter Hit’s Time-Skip, did a baby version of the Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan switching technique, figured out how to completely mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and even came up with the idea to learn the Evil Containment Wave to be an immortal.

Yet somehow ‘Goku only focus on power and needs his old master to show him the way’. Like, what? Who is Toyo’s editor?
This is in no way a contradiction. That's Goku using his brain in combat to figure out how to deal with his opponents' abilities.

In this fight, Goku knows he can't overcome Jiren unless he powers up. He knows there's a barrier between them, and is trying to get past that. He's trying to raise his battle power to push past his limits.

That's pretty consistent with the Goku Toyotaro has written. He's perceptive enough to see that there is a problem, but not insightful enough to instantly figure out a solution. He didn't instantly figure out how to complete Super Saiyan Blue, nor did he instantly figure out how to deal with Hit, nor did he instantly come up with the Mafuba strategy.

Relax and let the story play out.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by NormalHero » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:34 pm

So, the heart of cards concept is in dragon ball now. Very nice toriyama.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Meshack » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:36 pm

TKA wrote:
HeroR wrote:
The thing that stands out is Toyo contradicted himself. Even in the Super manga, Goku is shown to be a master by how he outsmarted Botamo instead of going to his full power, figures out how to counter Hit’s Time-Skip, did a baby version of the Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan switching technique, figured out how to completely mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and even came up with the idea to learn the Evil Containment Wave to be an immortal.

Yet somehow ‘Goku only focus on power and needs his old master to show him the way’. Like, what? Who is Toyo’s editor?
This is in no way a contradiction. That's Goku using his brain in combat to figure out how to deal with his opponents' abilities.

In this fight, Goku knows he can't overcome Jiren unless he powers up. He knows there's a barrier between them, and is trying to get past that. He's trying to raise his battle power to push past his limits.

That's pretty consistent with the Goku Toyotaro has written. He's perceptive enough to see that there is a problem, but not insightful enough to instantly figure out a solution. He didn't instantly figure out how to complete Super Saiyan Blue, nor did he instantly figure out how to deal with Hit, nor did he instantly come up with the Mafuba strategy.

Relax and let the story play out.
Ikr. It’s like the people criticizing Toyotarou don’t even read themselves and just see snipits of what they wanna see

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