"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:50 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:Everything I just mentioned - from Whis discussing how brain signals inhibit speed to Whis explicitly stating that UI can take on any foe - was stated word-for-word in the story.

If Jiren can hit a mastered Ultra Instinct Goku with no explanation, that's a Toei problem for not adhering to Whis' description.
You are simply taking that statement by Whis far too literally.(again) He doesn't literally mean that this is an auto-win mechanic that makes it impossible for you to be hit. Such a thing would remove any tension from the fight knowing one fighter cannot possibly be hit. Beerus was using UI during the Destoyer's Rumble or whatever, and I guarantee you right now that Jiren vs UI Goku in the manga will involve Jiren being able to hit Goku because otherwise it would remove any semblance of interest in the fight. Ultra Instinct is an amazing technique/form that allows you to do things that you otherwise wouldn't be able to do, like dodge enemies that you wouldn't be able to dodge under normal circumstances. It is not, nor was even said in the manga that it allowed you to never be hit a single time. Vegeta simply said he would be able to take on any enemy and Whis agreed with him. Your body moving on it's own allows for massively improved dodging, but it doesn't(or shouldn't) bypass literally any power gap.

Even so, Roshi doesn't actually even have Ultra Instinct. If he doesn't have it, and this is "a far cry from it" then what is even the purpose of actually attaining Ultra Instinct if you can dodge literally every single attack with something that only resembles it?
Power scaling is obviously important, but it's not going to apply to every single situation in the story
Yes, actually it does. Power scaling literally establishes almost all tension within the stories of Dragon Ball and gives a sense of hopelessness when characters are being overpowered of course. The entire series of DBZ(or the latter half of the original manga) showcased literally every single fight being decided by power. If the deciding factor is not power, it needs to be portrayed in a cohesive and believable way. Roshi randomly being able to use something akin to Ultra Instinct is most certainly not an example of this.
emperior wrote: Also, please stop with this condescending attitude already.
Yeah that isn't going to stop anytime soon. He is constantly condescending and I think people may have to accept that he is going to use phrases like "this is basic fucking logic" in an attempt to degrade people opposing him.
JazzMazz wrote:I think people more than understand what UI is, it’s just that Roshi shouldn’t have even a bootleg version of UI. That’s more the problem I have.
I don't believe UI is meant to be an instant "auto-win" mechanic that bypasses any difference in power including a difference of quintillions of times. And even if it was, Roshi does not have UI so this should not apply to him.

User avatar
ekrolo2
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7854
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:27 am
Location: Split, Croatia

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:54 pm

PFM18 wrote:Yeah fair enough. I guess I didn't realize it was as pronounced of a difference in the eyes prior to this. But aren't those eyes often just indication of a character fighting seriously? Like the larger eyes are a result of the character being more relaxed?
They typically are but Goku and his family have a very specific design choice concerning the eyes:
Image
They're always drawn with one side of them open IE without a line there, regardless if they're relaxed or serious. However, once SS forms start showing up, they're always fully outlined, even in Grade 4:
Image

This change can also be seen with pre and post Ultimate Gohan already provided in the previous images.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 797
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:55 pm

I really liked Roshi this chapter. Teaching a lesson to Goku and finally making him understand how to beat Jiren.

However, Gohan vs Kefla sucked. Gohan's whole "Fighting as a earthling" talk lacks weight when 90% of the fight was off screen and all we see is he and Kefla defeating each other. Talking about off screen fights, Vegeta vs Toppo being nothing but a couple panels scattered around the chapters of them beating each other sucks.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
batistabus
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1649
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Western Massachusetts

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:56 pm

JazzMazz wrote:I think people more than understand what UI is, it’s just that Roshi shouldn’t have even a bootleg version of UI. That’s more the problem I have.
I think Toyotaro is drawing from Kame-sen'nin's title.

User avatar
shadowfox87
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:09 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:56 pm

lord turbo wrote:Original DB was about power levels as well. The things Goku learned from Korin served to power him up greatly where he goes from getting his ass aeverely to handed to him by Tao to him severely handing Tao's ass to him.

Except it was just that, Toriyama's poor writing doesn't change that as Goku continues to fight the same with wasted movements when he meets Mr. Popo and apparently stays the same for Whis to repeat the same flaws. I Guess Goku simply doesn't understand what he's told or shown or just doesn't listen.
Toriyama's writing wasn't poor. It's just poorly interpreted by fans. Dragon Ball was founded on the core principle of an adventure martial arts story based on Journey to the West. Toriyama was a huge martial arts fan. Goku learns something new from each master. As I said previously, Goku learned about minimizing unnecessary movements from trying to catch Korin. In fact, Roshi had to do the same thing after he climbed Korin's tower. Goku isn't perfect. When he met Mr. Popo, he learned to refine again his movements by attaching a bell on his clothes and move without making a sound - so that he can be "quiet as the sky" and "faster than lightning". Goku beat Tao Pai not just through gaining more power by climbing Korin's tower but also minimizing unnecessary movements.

As DBZ went on, Goku had to overcome the power gap between him and his opponents. Freeza was immensely powerful and regardless of what he knew about martial arts, he needed power to inflict any damage. Freeza and Vegeta didn't even know how to sense ki when they first met Goku. The truth is that the martial arts taught on Earth was advanced given that a universal being such as Freeza didn't know how to control his own ki. As DBZ went on, power became the theme and Goku had to overcome more power gaps. In the process, some of the old fundamentals of martial arts like movement got lost. He relied on power.

Now, we are revisiting those very same core principles of martial arts. Instead of Goku just increasing his power, he will break his limits by achieving Ultra Instinct. UI is not simply increased speed and power. It is exactly as Whis said - the ability subconsciously dodge anything. By moving correctly, he can aim at critical points which cause more damage than normal. Goku will not gain more power than Jiren. Roshi wasn't moving faster than Jiren to dodge those punches. He was anticipating and moving out of the way before the punches were thrown. Jiren is fighting a fly. A fly can be annoying temporarily but ultimately, it is defeated which is exactly what happened. Technique and power are BOTH important.

This is a good direction for the future of DB if we want fights with better choreography, strategy, and technique rather than a guy just screaming, powering up, and having more transformations.
lord turbo wrote:Yet, that is what they do anyway, what do you think Vegeta went back in the time chamber for against SSR Black?
That has nothing to do with zenkai. Vegeta spent a year in the ROSAT training. Goku and Vegeta can still get stronger through training. I'm saying that they've reached their limits from zenkai. That is, they don't just get a free increase in power after every fight anymore. This was stated during the Zamasu arc when Black got a zenkai but Vegeta didn't.
lord turbo wrote:That was a theme since Goku and Kruririn needed to train/power up for the 21st Budokai, Red Ribbon arc, 22nd Budokai, Demon King Piccolo, and 23rd Budokai sagas.
Goku and Krillin got stronger through training of course, but if you watched any Dragon Ball at all, you'll know that there was several techniques and strategies used during those fights. The best examples are in the 21st, 22nd, and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokais. All of this was became less apparent in DBZ as it became more about power and that is fine because Goku needed to achieve Super Saiyan and higher levels. Now, he has enough transformations. He needs to focus on technique. It's not like he's going to stop training but without UI, he won't break his limits.
lord turbo wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
There's nothing to really disagree. It's been shown in real life. In UFC, Royce Gracie fought many opponents that were more than 3x his size. This was before UFC had any weight divisions. He won 3 UFCs in a row, using submissions and holds. Every martial art style and fighter was present during the first UFCs. It is after this, that people realized the utility of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu which is based on grappling and not striking. It didn't matter how powerful a person's punches and kicks were, if they were choked out or gotten into an arm bar. Today, almost every MMA fighter practices BJJ before competing or they are considered very idiotic.
lord turbo wrote:That's what Dragon Ball does so I don't quite get what you are trying to say here.
That's what Dragon Ball is for you. Not for me. For me, I loved the original Dragon Ball, with martial arts and technique. I enjoyed the fighting choreography. Later, in DBZ, I enjoyed it less as it became more about power and transformations. I'm glad that they are revisiting the core foundations of what laid DB.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3072
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:00 pm

1. Roshi dodging Jiren was plausible cause Roshi demonstrated movement that Goku couldn't and Jiren was obviously laxed while attacking Roshi. Evidenced by the panel showing Jiren's eye's more focused KOing "UI Roshi."

2. Goku's character was not shot. But a development. It's true, Goku always powered up to a new form or gathered more power to beat his opponent. Roshi reminded him of the spiritual aspect of his teachings which Goku totally forgot [Besides Ki sensing]. By remembering these specific teachings he was able to tap into UI which is much better than the anime's random power struggle approach.

3. I do not like the fact that Gohan could rival Kefla. However, Kale's base was stated to pack more punch than Caulifla's SSJ and the fusion highlighted kale's power and caulifla's battle sense mix. Don't know how much of a jump the Potara would bring from that combination so it isn't safe to assume where Gohan's power is from this showing.

reecehoward
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:52 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:01 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: It doesn't require strength, but it most definitely requires speed and agility far out of the realm of Roshi when dodging against someone of Jiren's level.
emperior wrote: Yeah it’s definitely easy to dodge something moving at speeds you can’t physically react to.
I'm gonna stop you both right there.

This, again, is an issue of people fundamentally missing the entire purpose of Ultra Instinct, its role in the story, why it was introduced, and how it works.

Whis clearly specified that a person's movement speed is hindered by their brain-processing signals, and training the body to move on its own overcomes that limitation. Those signals = reaction times. Without those signals, conscious perception wouldn't exist. Therefore, Ultra Instinct bypasses reaction times. As bizarre as that might sound to some folks, that's the main idea behind UI's whole concept. It's literally an auto-dodge mechanic in every possible sense of the word; that's also why Whis specifically said it could evade any threat. Roshi developed a half-baked pseudo equivalent, so the same principle applies for however long he can keep it up.

What does that tell you?

Jiren could be a quintillion times stronger, faster, godlier, sexier, cooler AND more chad than Roshi and it's not going to count for shit if Roshi has the DB equivalent of holding down the square button in Final Fantasy XV. Which he does, because that's what Ultra Instinct is. Because that's what the material says it is. Because that's what the goddamn writers tried to convey to you people in the movies, the anime, and the manga: ALL THREE formats. Imagine that!

So please, please spare me all this tripe about power scaling when the whole technique was designed to throw it out from the very beginning while it's in use (unless both parties are using it, I guess). Power scaling is obviously important, but it's not going to apply to every single situation in the story, nor does Toyotaro want it to. Nor does Toriyama want it to. Nor do I want it to. As long as there are explanations for the outliers, I'm fine with it, and guess what? There were explanations for the outliers.
This is the epitome of a no-limits fallacy. I just have a bad feeling that you are going to have to eat these words if Jiren ends up hitting UI Goku in the manga OR Broly ends up tagging UI Goku in the movie and manga version. Remember this conversation, because I surely will.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:04 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Yeah fair enough. I guess I didn't realize it was as pronounced of a difference in the eyes prior to this. But aren't those eyes often just indication of a character fighting seriously? Like the larger eyes are a result of the character being more relaxed?
They typically are but Goku and his family have a very specific design choice concerning the eyes:
Image
They're always drawn with one side of them open IE without a line there, regardless if they're relaxed or serious. However, once SS forms start showing up, they're always fully outlined, even in Grade 4:
Image

This change can also be seen with pre and post Ultimate Gohan already provided in the previous images.
Yeah I gotcha, good point. It appears the eyes may be the more distinctive feature of the two but the merged bang is definitely iconic for Ultimate Gohan and I think it should have been included here.

User avatar
batistabus
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1649
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Western Massachusetts

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:17 pm

I'm really not sure if I have the energy to keep doing this month after month. I got an especially big kick out of the typical context-less, knee-jerk reactions this month, but even after all the haters should be eating their words, people seem more inclined to double down than ever. This chapter had just about everything I want from the DBS manga, although I wish we had just a little more from the Gohan x Kafla fight.

Is there a DBS manga discord or something? Healthy debate is fine, but when we can't even agree on what Dragon Ball is on a fundamental level, how can we have a good-faith discussion? Maybe I just need a break.
Last edited by batistabus on Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
prince212
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 790
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: wild west

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:18 pm

shadowfox87 wrote: the original Dragon Ball, with martial arts and technique. I enjoyed the fighting choreography. Later, in DBZ, I enjoyed it less as it became more about power and transformations. I'm glad that they are revisiting the core foundations of what laid DB.
Me too :thumbup:
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

User avatar
Kokonoe
Not Banned
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kokonoe » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:35 pm

Gohan matching Kefla makes sense to me, I actually felt personally Kefla being as strong as Ultra Instinct Goku was really out there so her being around Gohan's level is about right I'd say.
batistabus wrote:I'm really not sure if I have the energy to keep doing this month after month. I got an especially big kick out of the typical context-less, knee-jerk reactions this month, but even after all the haters should be eating their words, people seem more inclined to double down than ever. This chapter had just about everything I want from the DBS manga, although I wish we had just a little more from the Gohan x Kafla fight.

Is there a DBS manga discord or something? Healthy debate is fine, but when we can't even agree on what Dragon Ball is on a fundamental level, how can we have a good-faith discussion? Maybe I just need a break.
Yeah like all I mentioned earlier in this thread was that this reminded me of reading Dragon Ball and it made me happy then two people got upset with that statement that someone could possibly have such an opinion lol. I made some snarky responses back in retaliation, but I'm not sure if VegitoEX was also including the people being rude to me in his warning.

That said, I don't think there is a DBS Manga Discord. I operate a pretty sizeable Nintendo Discord and we chat about the manga sometimes but we're not dedicated to it though we talk about Dragon Ball a lot despite that.

User avatar
prince212
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 790
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: wild west

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:16 pm

batistabus wrote:I'm really not sure if I have the energy to keep doing this month after month. I got an especially big kick out of the typical context-less, knee-jerk reactions this month, but even after all the haters should be eating their words, people seem more inclined to double down than ever. This chapter had just about everything I want from the DBS manga, although I wish we had just a little more from the Gohan x Kafla fight.

Is there a DBS manga discord or something? Healthy debate is fine, but when we can't even agree on what Dragon Ball is on a fundamental level, how can we have a good-faith discussion? Maybe I just need a break.
I hear ya ! Too much anger that I really don’t fully understand why that much .. I’m planning on a break too , this makes me angry, not in a bad way , but in the way it’s not nice to read most of the people calling garbage something that I enjoy .
So it’s not fun , ... guess what , I’m out of here , I’ll try because this is not making me any good or joy .
This is a goodbye, I know nobody cares , but I’m educated, have fun you guys
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

User avatar
Marlowe89
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 1926
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:30 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:27 pm

reecehoward wrote: This is the epitome of a no-limits fallacy.
Don't shoot the messenger. Shoot Whis for saying it could avoid anything. He'll dodge your bullet, being a UI user and all, but that's where you should be aiming the gun. :wink:

Seriously, though: I feel like there's an awful lot of nitpicking just to dance around the point the series is trying to make. If Ultra Instinct emphasizes that power levels aren't the be-all and end-all, that's because it's supposed to emphasize that. If Whis says that speed is limited by one's electrical impulses and then insinuates the technique to be an alternative, that's because it's supposed to be an alternative. If Roshi has an ability similar to Ultra Instinct and its principles, he's more than likely not going to be bound by typical reaction times while utilizing it because its sister technique isn't either. These aren't radical conclusions, buddy.

Whether people find the explanation satisfying is their prerogative, but you can't say one wasn't provided.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

CriticalThinker
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:56 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by CriticalThinker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:30 pm

The reason why I don't post in this thread much anymore is due to the constant fighting that goes on. I've noticed that there are some posters in this thread who get pretty defensive when other posters don't speak well of the manga and will go after them. Not that there's anything wrong with wanting to defend something you like but some posters due tend to go overboard and it can be kind of annoying. Then you got posters who aren't that big into the manga that come into the thread and egg on those more defensive posters and what ensues is a fight that spans for several pages. Despite all that though this thread is still one of the better threads to discuss the manga, as I've lurked on other forums which are far worse and toxic than this one. Sorry for going off topic just wanted to throw in my Five cents.

To go back on track though, I'm betting we will have Toppo vs Vegeta concluded next chapter and I'm also betting that Toppo will go God and Vegeta will go ssbe. Dyspo will probably be knocked out next chapter as well by 17.

User avatar
Kokonoe
Not Banned
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kokonoe » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:32 pm

The Roshi bit reminded me of this in the original where Krillin uses his movement to get a temporary upper hand over Nappa.

https://youtu.be/I1r7XlBORj4?t=37s

Brilliant writing tbh.

User avatar
Kenneth La Torre
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1584
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Florida

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:37 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: It doesn't require strength, but it most definitely requires speed and agility far out of the realm of Roshi when dodging against someone of Jiren's level.
emperior wrote: Yeah it’s definitely easy to dodge something moving at speeds you can’t physically react to.
I'm gonna stop you both right there.

This, again, is an issue of people fundamentally missing the entire purpose of Ultra Instinct, its role in the story, why it was introduced, and how it works.

Whis clearly specified that a person's movement speed is hindered by their brain-processing signals, and training the body to move on its own overcomes that limitation. Those signals = reaction times. Without those signals, conscious perception wouldn't exist. Therefore, Ultra Instinct bypasses reaction times. As bizarre as that might sound to some folks, that's the main idea behind UI's whole concept. It's literally an auto-dodge mechanic in every possible sense of the word; that's also why Whis specifically said it could evade any threat. Roshi developed a half-baked pseudo equivalent, so the same principle applies for however long he can keep it up.

What does that tell you?

Jiren could be a quintillion times stronger, faster, godlier, sexier, cooler AND more chad than Roshi and it's not going to count for shit if Roshi has the DB equivalent of holding down the square button in Final Fantasy XV. Which he does, because that's what Ultra Instinct is. Because that's what the material says it is. Because that's what the goddamn writers tried to convey to you people in the movies, the anime, and the manga: ALL THREE formats. Imagine that!

So please, please spare me all this tripe about power scaling when the whole technique was designed to throw it out from the very beginning while it's in use (unless both parties are using it, I guess). Power scaling is obviously important, but it's not going to apply to every single situation in the story, nor does Toyotaro want it to. Nor does Toriyama want it to. Nor do I want it to. As long as there are explanations for the outliers, I'm fine with it, and guess what? There were explanations for the outliers.
This is the epitome of a no-limits fallacy. I just have a bad feeling that you are going to have to eat these words if Jiren ends up hitting UI Goku in the manga OR Broly ends up tagging UI Goku in the movie and manga version. Remember this conversation, because I surely will.
Itll die down once new opponents without UI start to crap on UI goku.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:39 pm

CriticalThinker wrote:To go back on track though, I'm betting we will have Toppo vs Vegeta concluded next chapter and I'm also betting that Toppo will go God and Vegeta will go ssbe. Dyspo will probably be knocked out next chapter as well by 17.
Well we already have the sequence where Toppo rips off his shirt and declares himself a GoD candidate. In the anime, that was the point when we see him turn into a GoD and it was already stated that SSBE is an anime only transformation. So I think that happening is unlikely to say the least
reecehoward wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: It doesn't require strength, but it most definitely requires speed and agility far out of the realm of Roshi when dodging against someone of Jiren's level.
emperior wrote: Yeah it’s definitely easy to dodge something moving at speeds you can’t physically react to.
I'm gonna stop you both right there.

This, again, is an issue of people fundamentally missing the entire purpose of Ultra Instinct, its role in the story, why it was introduced, and how it works.

Whis clearly specified that a person's movement speed is hindered by their brain-processing signals, and training the body to move on its own overcomes that limitation. Those signals = reaction times. Without those signals, conscious perception wouldn't exist. Therefore, Ultra Instinct bypasses reaction times. As bizarre as that might sound to some folks, that's the main idea behind UI's whole concept. It's literally an auto-dodge mechanic in every possible sense of the word; that's also why Whis specifically said it could evade any threat. Roshi developed a half-baked pseudo equivalent, so the same principle applies for however long he can keep it up.

What does that tell you?

Jiren could be a quintillion times stronger, faster, godlier, sexier, cooler AND more chad than Roshi and it's not going to count for shit if Roshi has the DB equivalent of holding down the square button in Final Fantasy XV. Which he does, because that's what Ultra Instinct is. Because that's what the material says it is. Because that's what the goddamn writers tried to convey to you people in the movies, the anime, and the manga: ALL THREE formats. Imagine that!

So please, please spare me all this tripe about power scaling when the whole technique was designed to throw it out from the very beginning while it's in use (unless both parties are using it, I guess). Power scaling is obviously important, but it's not going to apply to every single situation in the story, nor does Toyotaro want it to. Nor does Toriyama want it to. Nor do I want it to. As long as there are explanations for the outliers, I'm fine with it, and guess what? There were explanations for the outliers.
This is the epitome of a no-limits fallacy. I just have a bad feeling that you are going to have to eat these words if Jiren ends up hitting UI Goku in the manga OR Broly ends up tagging UI Goku in the movie and manga version. Remember this conversation, because I surely will.
It's pretty much inevitable that one or both of the things you mentioned will happen. However, I don't suspect him to actually "eat his words" he is going to find some convoluted explanation to defend Toyotaro regardless of what happens in the future.
Miracles wrote: I do not like the fact that Gohan could rival Kefla. However, Kale's base was stated to pack more punch than Caulifla's SSJ and the fusion highlighted kale's power and caulifla's battle sense mix. Don't know how much of a jump the Potara would bring from that combination so it isn't safe to assume where Gohan's power is from this showing.
Potara should yield a very large jump but for any of this to make sense then it must have been a marginal increase if any.(In and of itself that doesn't make sense but it needs to in order for this to fit together) For this potara boost to remain consistent with others, it would have to be a several fold boost and Gohan couldn't possibly be weaker than Goku after fighting evenly with Kefla. Since it was stated Gohan still hasn't surpassed Goku despite his performance against Kefla, we have to assume Kefla received next to nothing of a boost over Kale.

User avatar
MatureGambino
Newbie
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:13 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MatureGambino » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:04 pm

batistabus wrote:I'm really not sure if I have the energy to keep doing this month after month. I got an especially big kick out of the typical context-less, knee-jerk reactions this month, but even after all the haters should be eating their words, people seem more inclined to double down than ever. This chapter had just about everything I want from the DBS manga, although I wish we had just a little more from the Gohan x Kafla fight.

Is there a DBS manga discord or something? Healthy debate is fine, but when we can't even agree on what Dragon Ball is on a fundamental level, how can we have a good-faith discussion? Maybe I just need a break.
Yeah it's probably best to take a break. When the hate is so lopsided all over the Web (even wishing for Toyotaro to be fired) there is almost no point in engaging which is why I hardly post in here during the release of new chapters.

I didn't mind this chapter or Muten Roshi using his years of martial arts experience to momentarily maneuver around Jiren. My only gripe is that Gohan vs. Kefla & Vegeta vs. Toppo shouldn't have been regulated to background status and had more panels.

reecehoward
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:52 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:06 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:


I'm gonna stop you both right there.

This, again, is an issue of people fundamentally missing the entire purpose of Ultra Instinct, its role in the story, why it was introduced, and how it works.

Whis clearly specified that a person's movement speed is hindered by their brain-processing signals, and training the body to move on its own overcomes that limitation. Those signals = reaction times. Without those signals, conscious perception wouldn't exist. Therefore, Ultra Instinct bypasses reaction times. As bizarre as that might sound to some folks, that's the main idea behind UI's whole concept. It's literally an auto-dodge mechanic in every possible sense of the word; that's also why Whis specifically said it could evade any threat. Roshi developed a half-baked pseudo equivalent, so the same principle applies for however long he can keep it up.

What does that tell you?

Jiren could be a quintillion times stronger, faster, godlier, sexier, cooler AND more chad than Roshi and it's not going to count for shit if Roshi has the DB equivalent of holding down the square button in Final Fantasy XV. Which he does, because that's what Ultra Instinct is. Because that's what the material says it is. Because that's what the goddamn writers tried to convey to you people in the movies, the anime, and the manga: ALL THREE formats. Imagine that!

So please, please spare me all this tripe about power scaling when the whole technique was designed to throw it out from the very beginning while it's in use (unless both parties are using it, I guess). Power scaling is obviously important, but it's not going to apply to every single situation in the story, nor does Toyotaro want it to. Nor does Toriyama want it to. Nor do I want it to. As long as there are explanations for the outliers, I'm fine with it, and guess what? There were explanations for the outliers.
This is the epitome of a no-limits fallacy. I just have a bad feeling that you are going to have to eat these words if Jiren ends up hitting UI Goku in the manga OR Broly ends up tagging UI Goku in the movie and manga version. Remember this conversation, because I surely will.
Itll die down once new opponents without UI start to crap on UI goku.
I'm hip. We all know it's bound to happen. The Broly movie is likely to already do it.lol

User avatar
batistabus
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1649
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Western Massachusetts

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:19 pm

Anyway, here are my thoughts for now.

15 minutes left in the ToP
Really glad we're only getting time updates every few chapters. With the amount of fighters we have left, this seems like plenty of time to resolve everything. Hopefully Toyotaro doesn't make the same mistake as the anime, where the in-universe time went totally out the window for the finale.

Gohan vs Kafla
Wish this was longer, but only because I really enjoyed what we were seeing. The short bit of choreography was cool, and the dialogue was really doing it for me.

It totally blows my mind that people seem to be having a hard time with "I don't [turn Super Saiyan] anymore. No need to rely. I chose to keep evolving as a human, not a Saiyan. I'm not relying on my Saiyan blood anymore". Plain as day, Gohan is talking about his Elder Kaioshin unlock. Saying he chose to evolve as a human is a flowery way of describing the ability to tap into his power without the need for transformation. This is not new information. He is not renouncing his Saiyan heritage. He is not ignorant of the fact that his power comes largely from his Saiyan blood. He is simply saying he can fight without transforming, which makes him feel more in-touch with his non-transforming Earthling comrades. Everything aside, this line is just badass.

Kafla's concession is really a huge point of progression from where Califla started. It may be in part due to Kale's modesty, but it was still a nice point of progression.

Universe 6's erasure
Subtle and impactful. By far the most emotional loss of the tournament, and rightfully so. Perfectly executed.

Vegeta vs Toppo
Their fight is mostly amounting to scenery, which I'm perfectly fine with at this point. I've seen people take issue with Toppo saying "A potential god cannot lose to a lesser being!" Seriously? He's right...a god of destruction should not lose to a human. For Toppo to take pride in maintaining that distinction is honorable and in-character.

Goku vs Jiren & Kame-sen'nin
Have we seen Goku so desperate in the DBS manga? Not since Beerus has Goku been so hopelessly outclassed by an opponent. Resorting to a Kaioken-esque technique is something that Goku understands isn't sustainable, but he's throwing at at the wall just to gain footing against Jiren.

Kame-sen'nin's contributions really tie together a lot of things in this arc. It justifies his appearance, it shows that he has valuable wisdom despite being long-surpassed in strength by everyone around him, and serves as a much better mechanic for tapping into Migatte no Gokui than the alternative. One of my biggest issues with the DBS anime is how preachy many of the characters are. Toei takes it to One Piece levels at times, and that's just not a Dragon Ball thing. Kame-sen'nin is one of the few characters that will lecture, and Toyotaro handled the tone very well (potentially due to Toriyama's direct supervision). The reason that Kame-sen'nin's pseudo-Migatte no Gokui works for me is because he is a Sen'nin. These sort of ideas exist in the Chinese mythology that Dragon Ball is based on, so I totally buy that the invincible sage would be capable of some version of it.

Based on user comments, you'd think Kame-sen'nin had Jiren at the brink of death. Dodging for 2 seconds is hardly worth all the fuss. If Toyotaro had any idea about how much drama this would stir up, but chose to do it anyway, perhaps he's more in sync with Toriyama's way of thinking than I had originally suspected.

If seen some complaints about "I was the worst apprentice who never listened", which might be fair. I don't remember Goku disobeying Kame-sen'nin, but he certainly disobeyed Kaio on several occasions. I guess Goku just got done listening to a lecture on all of the things he wasn't remembering from his training, so I guess that could be what he's referring to.

Migatte no Gokui - Omen
A proper omen, at that. Just a taste. The fact that it was so short-lived will only serve to make the fully mastered form more impactful. Despite really cool animation, the anime blew its load on Omen, making it indistinguishable from the final version in practice. I will say, I don't love the surprised expression, but that's the nitpickiest of nitpicks.
Last edited by batistabus on Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply