"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:59 am

Bergamo wrote:1. Goku isn't a dummy that relies 100% on power, but he isn't exactly a technical fighter either.
Technical fighting isn't in the showy techniques people like to label as "tactics", it's in the basics of things like angling and positioning and movement. We had every reason before this chapter to think Goku was a master of fundamentals.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:01 am

JazzMazz wrote:
batistabus wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:I think people more than understand what UI is, it’s just that Roshi shouldn’t have even a bootleg version of UI. That’s more the problem I have.
I think Toyotaro is drawing from Kame-sen'nin's title.
That's not an in-story explanation for why Roshi was able to do things he did this chapter.
I think its also worth noting, that Dragonball is literally a series filled with characters whose official titles are that of gods, having a title doesn't mean much.
Miracles wrote:1. Roshi dodging Jiren was plausible cause Roshi demonstrated movement that Goku couldn't and Jiren was obviously laxed while attacking Roshi. Evidenced by the panel showing Jiren's eye's more focused KOing "UI Roshi."

2. Goku's character was not shot. But a development. It's true, Goku always powered up to a new form or gathered more power to beat his opponent. Roshi reminded him of the spiritual aspect of his teachings which Goku totally forgot [Besides Ki sensing]. By remembering these specific teachings he was able to tap into UI which is much better than the anime's random power struggle approach.

3. I do not like the fact that Gohan could rival Kefla. However, Kale's base was stated to pack more punch than Caulifla's SSJ and the fusion highlighted kale's power and caulifla's battle sense mix. Don't know how much of a jump the Potara would bring from that combination so it isn't safe to assume where Gohan's power is from this showing.
1. Thats the problem, Roshi instory is a less advanced martial artist than Goku and there should be no way that Roshi should be capable of showcasing movement that Goku wasn't not only capable of, but far exceeding in every respect.

2. Goku is more than aware that power isn't everything, how the hell do you think they defeated Raditz? Or Piccolo in the 23rd? even the instantenous movement Kamehameha against Cell, or even just completed Super Saiyan, or even completed Blue. Or the majority of his other fights in the series.

Goku has tried methods of merely powering up before, and in pretty much all cases they have had negative results(20 times Kaio-ken, Super Saiyan 3). Goku more than anyone understands that power isn't a good trade off for everything else, he as a fighter shouldn't need to be reminded of that fact, because he already understands that perfectly well.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a throwback to past training, but simply recalling that past training being the impetus for Goku achieving UI, with no effort or struggle, makes the transformation come out of left field, is stupidly vague, but also cheapens how easily the form is achieved.
Everything you mentioned has nothing to do with the spiritual aspects of martial arts which is what Roshi was reminding Goku of, resembling UI. This lesson logically propelled Goku to tap into UI.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:03 am

Simere wrote:
Bergamo wrote:1. Goku isn't a dummy that relies 100% on power, but he isn't exactly a technical fighter either.
Technical fighting isn't in the showy techniques people like to label as "tactics", it's in the basics of things like angling and positioning and movement. We had every reason before this chapter to think Goku was a master of fundamentals.
Except for the fact that Goku asked Whis to give him a special lesson on Ultra Instinct and Whis told Goku that he still needs to work on the basics. Goku has been characterized as a bad student and someone who loses sight of the basics since the beginning of the arc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:06 am

Bergamo wrote:
HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: In this chapter yes, but in literally every other chapter of even this manga, Goku is completely competent and utilizes the methods his learned in intelligent manners. If he was all power like people are suggesting, he wouldn't have been able to out predict Hit's timeskip, beat Botamo using strategy, learn the destruction technique, complete and master SSB learn the destruction technique and so forth and so on. My point is, even in the manga, Goku hasn't lost sight of the importance of strategy and technique, which is what makes Goku's diminution into an inept moron who gets schooled by his retired former master who didn't even master the ability to ki sense an opponents movements and relies on his eyes all the more jarring.

EDIT: Also, self movement, or hell, even the use of less movements was never something Roshi taught Goku, or even something he mastered to Goku or even Tien and Kuririn's level.
That and UI at least for Goku is a transformation just like Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So the whole 'stop relying on transformations', falls really flat. It isn't like UI alone can overcome Jiren since all that will do is allow Goku to dodge until he gets tired.
Just because Ultra Instinct turns Goku's hair white, doesn't mean it's not a technique. Whis uses UI and he doesn't have the silver eyes, so obviously UI is not necessarily a transformation.
That isn't what I said. For Goku, UI is a transformation that gives Goku access to a technique. So the whole 'not relying on transformations' doesn't work in Goku's case because he clearly transforms to used UI.
Bergamo wrote:
Simere wrote:
Bergamo wrote:1. Goku isn't a dummy that relies 100% on power, but he isn't exactly a technical fighter either.
Technical fighting isn't in the showy techniques people like to label as "tactics", it's in the basics of things like angling and positioning and movement. We had every reason before this chapter to think Goku was a master of fundamentals.
Except for the fact that Goku asked Whis to give him a special lesson on Ultra Instinct and Whis told Goku that he still needs to work on the basics. Goku has been characterized as a bad student and someone who loses sight of the basics since the beginning of the arc.

We don't know what the special lessons were, you're assuming it is UI. And this is a flaw Goku suddenly picked up in this arc when he previously never had this issue. This is an extremely common mistake made by fanfic writers and even some professional writers. Given a character a flaw that wasn't seen previously for the sake of drama or to tell a particular story. Like Marty Mcfly suddenly gaining the Berserk Button of being called Chicken when he didn't have this issue in the first movie. In the commentary for Back to the Future II, the directors reference this and says they wished they included this flaw in the first movie.
Last edited by HeroR on Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:07 am

JazzMazz wrote:
batistabus wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:I think people more than understand what UI is, it’s just that Roshi shouldn’t have even a bootleg version of UI. That’s more the problem I have.
I think Toyotaro is drawing from Kame-sen'nin's title.
That's not an in-story explanation for why Roshi was able to do things he did this chapter.
I think its also worth noting, that Dragonball is literally a series filled with characters whose official titles are that of gods, having a title doesn't mean much.
Miracles wrote:1. Roshi dodging Jiren was plausible cause Roshi demonstrated movement that Goku couldn't and Jiren was obviously laxed while attacking Roshi. Evidenced by the panel showing Jiren's eye's more focused KOing "UI Roshi."

2. Goku's character was not shot. But a development. It's true, Goku always powered up to a new form or gathered more power to beat his opponent. Roshi reminded him of the spiritual aspect of his teachings which Goku totally forgot [Besides Ki sensing]. By remembering these specific teachings he was able to tap into UI which is much better than the anime's random power struggle approach.

3. I do not like the fact that Gohan could rival Kefla. However, Kale's base was stated to pack more punch than Caulifla's SSJ and the fusion highlighted kale's power and caulifla's battle sense mix. Don't know how much of a jump the Potara would bring from that combination so it isn't safe to assume where Gohan's power is from this showing.
1. Thats the problem, Roshi instory is a less advanced martial artist than Goku and there should be no way that Roshi should be capable of showcasing movement that Goku wasn't not only capable of, but far exceeding in every respect.

2. Goku is more than aware that power isn't everything, how the hell do you think they defeated Raditz? Or Piccolo in the 23rd? even the instantenous movement Kamehameha against Cell, or even just completed Super Saiyan, or even completed Blue. Or the majority of his other fights in the series.

Goku has tried methods of merely powering up before, and in pretty much all cases they have had negative results(20 times Kaio-ken, Super Saiyan 3). Goku more than anyone understands that power isn't a good trade off for everything else, he as a fighter shouldn't need to be reminded of that fact, because he already understands that perfectly well.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a throwback to past training, but simply recalling that past training being the impetus for Goku achieving UI, with no effort or struggle, makes the transformation come out of left field, is stupidly vague, but also cheapens how easily the form is achieved.
Well said. There was no struggle or effort which was the worst part to me

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:11 am

HeroR wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
HeroR wrote:
That and UI at least for Goku is a transformation just like Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So the whole 'stop relying on transformations', falls really flat. It isn't like UI alone can overcome Jiren since all that will do is allow Goku to dodge until he gets tired.
Just because Ultra Instinct turns Goku's hair white, doesn't mean it's not a technique. Whis uses UI and he doesn't have the silver eyes, so obviously UI is not necessarily a transformation.
That isn't what I said. For Goku, UI is a transformation that gives Goku access to a technique. So the whole 'not relying on transformations' doesn't work in Goku's case because he clearly transforms to used UI.
That's in the anime. It's very possible that in the manga the transformation is purely aesthetic.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:12 am

Bergamo wrote:Except for the fact that Goku asked Whis to give him a special lesson on Ultra Instinct and Whis told Goku that he still needs to work on the basics. Goku has been characterized as a bad student and someone who loses sight of the basics since the beginning of the arc.
No, not except for. Ultra Instinct is something on an entirely different level than anything he's been taught previously.

I don't care if he's been portrayed badly since the beginning of the arc that I'm saying has deviated from what's been established. You can't say this is bad, it's been bad from the start! I don't even know what you're talking about, though. Getting rusty? Losing to Toppo? That's where I'd invoke LightBing's defense of this chapter. Even the best slip up. It doesn't all of a sudden mean they were unskilled idiots all along.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:16 am

Bergamo wrote: That's in the anime. It's very possible that in the manga the transformation is purely aesthetic.
Goku's eyes changed color and the completed form gives him silver hair, it's a transformation. It makes no sense to change Goku's look if it was just a technique over just given him an aura like Kaioken.
Last edited by HeroR on Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:20 am

Simere wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Except for the fact that Goku asked Whis to give him a special lesson on Ultra Instinct and Whis told Goku that he still needs to work on the basics. Goku has been characterized as a bad student and someone who loses sight of the basics since the beginning of the arc.
No, not except for. Ultra Instinct is something on an entirely different level than anything he's been taught previously.

I don't care if he's been portrayed badly since the beginning of the arc that I'm saying has deviated from what's been established. You can't say this is bad, it's been bad from the start! I don't even know what you're talking about, though. Getting rusty? Losing to Toppo? That's where I'd invoke LightBing's defense of this chapter. Even the best slip up. It doesn't all of a sudden mean they were unskilled idiots all along.
Moving goalposts much. You said that before this chapter we had no reason to believe that Goku doesn't need to practice the fundamentals, and I provided you with an example. "Well it's bad anyway" isn't an argument.

Goku gets stronger by getting new transformations->Goku doesn't have any more saiyan transformations->Goku needs a technique->A character from pre-transformation era dragon ball reminds Goku to remember how he got so far in the first place
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:22 am

PFM18 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
batistabus wrote: I think Toyotaro is drawing from Kame-sen'nin's title.
That's not an in-story explanation for why Roshi was able to do things he did this chapter.
I think its also worth noting, that Dragonball is literally a series filled with characters whose official titles are that of gods, having a title doesn't mean much.
Miracles wrote:1. Roshi dodging Jiren was plausible cause Roshi demonstrated movement that Goku couldn't and Jiren was obviously laxed while attacking Roshi. Evidenced by the panel showing Jiren's eye's more focused KOing "UI Roshi."

2. Goku's character was not shot. But a development. It's true, Goku always powered up to a new form or gathered more power to beat his opponent. Roshi reminded him of the spiritual aspect of his teachings which Goku totally forgot [Besides Ki sensing]. By remembering these specific teachings he was able to tap into UI which is much better than the anime's random power struggle approach.

3. I do not like the fact that Gohan could rival Kefla. However, Kale's base was stated to pack more punch than Caulifla's SSJ and the fusion highlighted kale's power and caulifla's battle sense mix. Don't know how much of a jump the Potara would bring from that combination so it isn't safe to assume where Gohan's power is from this showing.
1. Thats the problem, Roshi instory is a less advanced martial artist than Goku and there should be no way that Roshi should be capable of showcasing movement that Goku wasn't not only capable of, but far exceeding in every respect.

2. Goku is more than aware that power isn't everything, how the hell do you think they defeated Raditz? Or Piccolo in the 23rd? even the instantenous movement Kamehameha against Cell, or even just completed Super Saiyan, or even completed Blue. Or the majority of his other fights in the series.

Goku has tried methods of merely powering up before, and in pretty much all cases they have had negative results(20 times Kaio-ken, Super Saiyan 3). Goku more than anyone understands that power isn't a good trade off for everything else, he as a fighter shouldn't need to be reminded of that fact, because he already understands that perfectly well.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a throwback to past training, but simply recalling that past training being the impetus for Goku achieving UI, with no effort or struggle, makes the transformation come out of left field, is stupidly vague, but also cheapens how easily the form is achieved.
Well said. There was no struggle or effort which was the worst part to me
That's the point tho. UI was a call back to being poised and tranquil....lol Goku wasn't suppose to struggle. Like TOEI with it's random power resistance UI gain.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:23 am

UI Omen and MUI obviously impart physical changes to Goku and that will be present even in the manga. Beerus never mastered UI which is why he didn't have the aura or the physical changes. Whis wasn't using MUI either against Goku and Vegeta. So yes, it's a technique and a transformation even in the manga. Only difference is that the manga explains it better as Whis states it is a state of mind, where one can subconsciously dodge any attack. It's not an increase in speed and power. It's self-movement literally. So the defensive UI is easy to understand since it is just dodging. The offensive part comes into play because it allows one to attack at critical points on the opponent's body like vital points and pressure points. Doing this will result in even more damage than normal. It's consistent with the explanation of UI I wrote in my sig.

UI should activate when Goku is pushed to the corner which he was in both the anime and manga. In the anime, it took a Spirit Bomb to initially activate it, then being beaten up by Kefla, and then finally again after being beaten up by Jiren. In the manga, it's being beaten up by Jiren AFTER he has observed Roshi's movements. Both make sense to me.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Raphael_Z » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:28 am

HeroR wrote:
Raphael_Z wrote:
Cursemark505 wrote: People were not fine with Gohan raising his power to blue tier in the anime. The complaints about the power scaling was at an all time high around that time.
Kefla is not "slightly " above blue tier. Kale alone was knocking around Golden Freeza and was about to get the upper hand on Goku and Kefla is many times stronger.


Many people were not fine with that Vegeta episode either and you know it.
It should not have taken Jiren any number of pages to defeat Roshi.

I honestly don't know how some of you can continuously find excuses to defend this mess. You're all free to like it for whatever reason but I don't know how or why some manga fans convince themselves that this makes any sense...
Manga Kefla is weaker than Manga Legendary Super Saiyan Kale, it makes sense total sense if you ask me:

Kid Buu is wild uncontrolled power but the fusion (technically absorption but it's the same concept) of him and the Kaioshin resulted in Fat Buu who is WEAKER than Kid Buu but has better control on his power. I would say that Manga Kefla is probably between Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga) level and Super Saiyan God (Red hair) level and so is TOP Gohan.

Manga Golden Frieza seems to be weaker than his Anime counterpart too although I do think that he would have found a way to beat Manga Kefla.

And Jiren...well, he was just curious to see what Roshi was doing. Jiren's not even at .001% of his full power/speed at this point. What surprised me is that Vegeta is completely wiping the floor with Toppo. I wonder if Toppo will get eliminated next chapter without transforming.
It was stated last chapter that Kelfa was stronger than Kale. And why would a fusion be weaker than their counterpart?
It could be because Kefla is unable to "unlock" Kale's Legendary Saiyan Powers. Imagine for a second that Goku and Mr. Satan had fused during the Boo Saga. Would anyone be surprised that Mr. Gotan (Mr. Saku?) is unable to turn SSJ3 and is actually weaker than Goku pre-fusion?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:30 am

Raphael_Z wrote:It could be because Kefla is unable to "unlock" Kale's Legendary Saiyan Powers. Imagine for a second that Goku and Mr. Satan had fused during the Boo Saga. Would anyone be surprised that Mr. Gotan (Mr. Saku?) is unable to turn SSJ3 and is actually weaker than Goku pre-fusion?
Yes, because that would make no sense on how Potara fusions work unless Satan was in some sort of weird special condition before hand. 100 + 1 is still a plus even if it's low.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:31 am

Bergamo wrote:Moving goalposts much. You said that before this chapter we had no reason to believe that Goku doesn't need to practice the fundamentals, and I provided you with an example. "Well it's bad anyway" isn't an argument.
You tried equating Migatte no Goku'i with fundamentals, and you brought up one example of him losing because of a poor tactical decision coming off being rusty to prove he's a historically bad fighter(actually, no you didn't, you vaguely referenced something I had to fill in the blanks for). I addressed your examples.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:37 am

Kanassa wrote:
Raphael_Z wrote:It could be because Kefla is unable to "unlock" Kale's Legendary Saiyan Powers. Imagine for a second that Goku and Mr. Satan had fused during the Boo Saga. Would anyone be surprised that Mr. Gotan (Mr. Saku?) is unable to turn SSJ3 and is actually weaker than Goku pre-fusion?
Yes, because that would make no sense on how Potara fusions work unless Satan was in some sort of weird special condition before hand. 100 + 1 is still a plus even if it's low.
Also, anyone can become Super Saiyan as long as you have Saiyan blood. A fusion of Goku and Satan would make him a hybrid.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:09 am

shadowfox87 wrote: Toriyama was a huge martial arts fan. Goku learns something new from each master. As I said previously, Goku learned about minimizing unnecessary movements from trying to catch Korin. In fact, Roshi had to do the same thing after he climbed Korin's tower. Goku isn't perfect. When he met Mr. Popo, he learned to refine again his movements by attaching a bell on his clothes and move without making a sound - so that he can be "quiet as the sky" and "faster than lightning". Goku beat Tao Pai not just through gaining more power by climbing Korin's tower but also minimizing unnecessary movements.
Toriyama was a fan of martial arts, but not a huge one. He just liked watching Jackie Chan’s movies.
The training Goku did with Popo you mention was anime-only. Goku beat Tao because he got stronger through climbing the tower and increased his battle power through his training with Korin. Battle power isn’t your bench press, it’s a combination of all fighting related skills including raw strength of course.
shadowfox87 wrote:As DBZ went on, Goku had to overcome the power gap between him and his opponents. Freeza was immensely powerful and regardless of what he knew about martial arts, he needed power to inflict any damage. Freeza and Vegeta didn't even know how to sense ki when they first met Goku. The truth is that the martial arts taught on Earth was advanced given that a universal being such as Freeza didn't know how to control his own ki. As DBZ went on, power became the theme and Goku had to overcome more power gaps. In the process, some of the old fundamentals of martial arts like movement got lost. He relied on power.
It was never stated or implied once that Goku had lost the basics of movement in the Z portion of the manga. This is just your headcanon to justify Toyotaro’s piss poor writing. If Goku had lost the basics, his battle power would have decreased and he wouldn’t have been able to land a finger on Popo anymore.
I would also theorize how Kami’s ki control training wasn’t an Earthling thing, but a Namekian one. In fact no Earthling, including Roshi, was able to manipulate their ki like Kami and Popo could. Later on we see on Namek how the Namekians can control the ki in the same way as Goku and co., who have all trained under Kami, and Gohan who trained under Piccolo.
Goku also learned how to sense Ki as soon as he recovered from drinking the Ultra Divine Water, which is basically proof that at some level, for some reason, it becomes easier to gain this ability. In fact Vegeta picked it up immediately without no one telling him how to do it, and Freeza too “sensed” Goku was coming when Goku was kilometres away.
shadowfox87 wrote:This is a good direction for the future of DB if we want fights with better choreography, strategy, and technique rather than a guy just screaming, powering up, and having more transformations.
I wouldn’t mind this switch but it cannot happen now, and not like this. It could happen once everyone has UI, as we don’t know how a battle between two UI users plays out but it will probably stay strength-based and Toyotaro will have to follow what Toriyama writes.
shadowfox87 wrote: That's what Dragon Ball is for you. Not for me. For me, I loved the original Dragon Ball, with martial arts and technique. I enjoyed the fighting choreography. Later, in DBZ, I enjoyed it less as it became more about power and transformations. I'm glad that they are revisiting the core foundations of what laid DB.
DBZ isn’t that different from DB in the fights. The original Dragon Ball may have had more grounded, and possibly better choreography, but power was still the deciding factor in the battles, although techniques did indeed play a part, especially in fights where the two fighters were very close in terms of power. DB battles were probably written better and focused more on each character intelligence as fighters and their techniques, but it also showed how these fighters were stronger than the others exactly because they had better understanding of the fights, better techniques, were faster and stronger. In the end, the winner was always decided based on who was stronger. It was just that most of the times the gap was small and so it was difficult to know exactly who was the best until the fight was over. Not a single time did a weaker character beat a stronger one, except in Baba’s tournament where she brought some fighters who used tricks to win.
Even in the Z part the battle smartness played a part in the fights. In fact, it was in Z where we saw weaker characters winning through their smartness, as it happened with Raditz, with Vegeta, with Zarbon... Cell and Buu would have been done for a few times by weaker characters if it weren’t for their regeneration.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hawk9211 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:15 am

emperior wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote: Toriyama was a huge martial arts fan. Goku learns something new from each master. As I said previously, Goku learned about minimizing unnecessary movements from trying to catch Korin. In fact, Roshi had to do the same thing after he climbed Korin's tower. Goku isn't perfect. When he met Mr. Popo, he learned to refine again his movements by attaching a bell on his clothes and move without making a sound - so that he can be "quiet as the sky" and "faster than lightning". Goku beat Tao Pai not just through gaining more power by climbing Korin's tower but also minimizing unnecessary movements.
Toriyama was a fan of martial arts, but not a huge one. He just liked watching Jackie Chan’s movies.
The training Goku did with Popo you mention was anime-only. Goku beat Tao because he got stronger through climbing the tower and increased his battle power through his training with Korin. Battle power isn’t your bench press, it’s a combination of all fighting related skills including raw strength of course.
shadowfox87 wrote:As DBZ went on, Goku had to overcome the power gap between him and his opponents. Freeza was immensely powerful and regardless of what he knew about martial arts, he needed power to inflict any damage. Freeza and Vegeta didn't even know how to sense ki when they first met Goku. The truth is that the martial arts taught on Earth was advanced given that a universal being such as Freeza didn't know how to control his own ki. As DBZ went on, power became the theme and Goku had to overcome more power gaps. In the process, some of the old fundamentals of martial arts like movement got lost. He relied on power.
It was never stated or implied once that Goku had lost the basics of movement in the Z portion of the manga. This is just your headcanon to justify Toyotaro’s piss poor writing. If Goku had lost the basics, his battle power would have decreased and he wouldn’t have been able to land a finger on Popo anymore.
I would also theorize how Kami’s ki control training wasn’t an Earthling thing, but a Namekian one. In fact no Earthling, including Roshi, was able to manipulate their ki like Kami and Popo could. Later on we see on Namek how the Namekians can control the ki in the same way as Goku and co., who have all trained under Kami, and Gohan who trained under Piccolo.
Goku also learned how to sense Ki as soon as he recovered from drinking the Ultra Divine Water, which is basically proof that at some level, for some reason, it becomes easier to gain this ability. In fact Vegeta picked it up immediately without no one telling him how to do it, and Freeza too “sensed” Goku was coming when Goku was kilometres away.
shadowfox87 wrote:This is a good direction for the future of DB if we want fights with better choreography, strategy, and technique rather than a guy just screaming, powering up, and having more transformations.
I wouldn’t mind this switch but it cannot happen now, and not like this. It could happen once everyone has UI, as we don’t know how a battle between two UI users plays out but it will probably stay strength-based and Toyotaro will have to follow what Toriyama writes.
shadowfox87 wrote: That's what Dragon Ball is for you. Not for me. For me, I loved the original Dragon Ball, with martial arts and technique. I enjoyed the fighting choreography. Later, in DBZ, I enjoyed it less as it became more about power and transformations. I'm glad that they are revisiting the core foundations of what laid DB.
DBZ isn’t that different from DB in the fights. The original Dragon Ball may have had more grounded, and possibly better choreography, but power was still the deciding factor in the battles, although techniques did indeed play a part, especially in fights where the two fighters were very close in terms of power. DB battles were probably written better and focused more on each character intelligence as fighters and their techniques, but it also showed how these fighters were stronger than the others exactly because they had better understanding of the fights, better techniques, were faster and stronger. In the end, the winner was always decided based on who was stronger. It was just that most of the times the gap was small and so it was difficult to know exactly who was the best until the fight was over. Not a single time did a weaker character beat a stronger one, except in Baba’s tournament where she brought some fighters who used tricks to win.
Even in the Z part the battle smartness played a part in the fights. In fact, it was in Z where we saw weaker characters winning through their smartness, as it happened with Raditz, with Vegeta, with Zarbon... Cell and Buu would have been done for a few times by weaker characters if it weren’t for their regeneration.
I will only address the martial arts part:
viewtopic.php?t=31707
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:25 am

Bergamo wrote:
Simere wrote:
Bergamo wrote:1. Goku isn't a dummy that relies 100% on power, but he isn't exactly a technical fighter either.
Technical fighting isn't in the showy techniques people like to label as "tactics", it's in the basics of things like angling and positioning and movement. We had every reason before this chapter to think Goku was a master of fundamentals.
Except for the fact that Goku asked Whis to give him a special lesson on Ultra Instinct and Whis told Goku that he still needs to work on the basics. Goku has been characterized as a bad student and someone who loses sight of the basics since the beginning of the arc.
You say it like it's a good thing.
Noah wrote:Why? Sure the chapter was terrible, but this scene was okay, I guess.
No, it was awful. I don't understand the people who sit here and claim with a straight face that it was a good scene, or that it was "subtle" and "nuanced." There was no emotional weight to it. Vados sits there like "oh that just happened" and Beerus reacts as if a nuisance just died, "oh, Champa died? That guy was a douche anyway." How the fuck is it nuanced when nobody gives a shit about his death and how is it subtle when Champa literally goes on a rant before he dies? Toyotaro legitimately cannot write anything properly at this point. None of his scenes have any sort of impact because of his dumb expressions and the lack of weight in the reactions.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rebel Instinct » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:19 am

batistabus wrote:I'm really not sure if I have the energy to keep doing this month after month. I got an especially big kick out of the typical context-less, knee-jerk reactions this month, but even after all the haters should be eating their words, people seem more inclined to double down than ever. This chapter had just about everything I want from the DBS manga, although I wish we had just a little more from the Gohan x Kafla fight.

Is there a DBS manga discord or something? Healthy debate is fine, but when we can't even agree on what Dragon Ball is on a fundamental level, how can we have a good-faith discussion? Maybe I just need a break.
MatureGambino said it best, if the madness is getting you down, you ought to take a break. I did. Other than one comment a couple days ago, I haven't posted here in ages because of the fandom's continual spiral into insanity as time goes on. I still peruse through the forums to keep up to date on what's going on, but I've effectively stopped actually interacting almost entirely. Seeing your comment about taking a break compelled me to actually say something about my own experience.

I hit my personal limit back during the V-Jump cover tracing fiasco when I saw people on Twitter saying they thought it'd be funny if Toyotaro committed suicide out of shame and that "that's what he deserves for ruining the manga". I was so appalled that I basically disengaged with the fandom entirely right then and there. How could I possibly feel good being a part of a fandom capable of saying such horrific things? Over such petty anime vs. manga tribalism? Now people like Hail Zeon have been practically bullied out of the fandom, prominent members of the community are openly spreading misinformation based on leaks and even here on Kanzenshuu the manga discussion thread has to be locked every month because people can't control themselves around leaks, the strength discussion thread now has to be locked too just to contain the outrage and the mods are actually entertaining a thread calling for Toyotaro to be fired? How could anyone see this as a healthy fandom or that any of this is okay?

There just comes a point where you realize it's better to walk away, that things have reached a point where nothing more can be said and you're hurting yourself more by staying and trying to continue a civil dialogue with people who refuse to listen to you and hate everything you love. We're talking about people so polarized that they seek to utterly destroy a harmless alternate take on Super and would literally rather see a man lose his livelihood than allow it to even coexist with the version they like. That said, don't let my pessimism talk you out of sticking around if that's what you ultimately feel like doing. Opinion pieces and reviews from people like you are always nice to see and give like-minded readers a break from the overwhelming hate and knee-jerk outrage. If you stick around, maybe consider just writing reviews like you did earlier in the thread? Put your thoughts out there in the aether to get it out of your head and don't stress yourself out replying if people start screaming at you and henpecking your opinions. I ran out of energy for these sorts of things long ago and you're a far better man than I for staying around as long as you have. Anecdotally, I'm seeing more and more people dropping out of the community over the toxicity (or at the very least, considering it) and it breaks my heart to see it - especially coming from people whose insight I respect.

If you ultimately decide to take a break, i fully understand and wish you all the best. Discussing Dragon Ball these days is exhausting. I'll miss reading your measured opinions and thoughtful commentary.
prince212 wrote:I hear ya ! Too much anger that I really don’t fully understand why that much .. I’m planning on a break too , this makes me angry, not in a bad way , but in the way it’s not nice to read most of the people calling garbage something that I enjoy .
So it’s not fun , ... guess what , I’m out of here , I’ll try because this is not making me any good or joy .
This is a goodbye, I know nobody cares , but I’m educated, have fun you guys
I care. I care when decent posters like yourself feel so burnt out by the community that they feel the need to leave. i care when opinions get so hostile and intolerant that the community starts to fall apart. I'm sorry things have gotten to this point and you haven't been able to enjoy being here lately. You''re a good one prince. Take care, I'll see you around. :thumbup:

As far as my opinions on the chapter go, others like Rakurai, Marlowe89, batistabus, LightBing and Zephyr have all already said everything I would have said. Like I mentioned above, I no longer have the energy to fight with people over this series anymore. It just isn't worth the headache. The people set on hating it and spreading that hate will not stop because of anything I have to say and the ones who still enjoy it will likely continue to do so. I still enjoy the manga and I enjoyed this chapter too. Gohan vs.Kefla could've a little longer, but oh well. I'm not sticking around to argue with anyone about it. To all the people out there who still love the manga, whether you're still here keeping at it or have already abandoned ship, I love ya. I'll be reading your positive comments from afar. Keep on keepin' on. Peace out. :wave:
The post-Super fandom has ruined my love for Dragon Ball.
LightBing wrote:Most of what's going on here isn't speculation, it's judgment's and conclusions. It's the reason why the manga thread is closed, it's the reason why VegettoEX warned people not to do what they are doing a few pages ago.

It's people riveting on their chance to feel validated in their opinion; to attack the "manga fans" whatever that means to prove themselves. My assumption is that everyone here is a Dragon Ball fan, capable of having discussions as equals and not segregate ourselves in little sectors trying to be the "superior faction" ignoring arguments, politeness and even common sense(like having all the information at hand).

Clearly I am mistaken.

I wish we were having fun making up theories or cracking up jokes.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:30 am

Rebel Instinct wrote:I no longer have the energy to fight with people over this series anymore.
Gah, I figured that's why you left. A shame, since I quite enjoyed reading your contributions.
Simere wrote: Technical fighting isn't in the showy techniques people like to label as "tactics", it's in the basics of things like angling and positioning and movement. We had every reason before this chapter to think Goku was a master of fundamentals.
I get what you're saying, but I don't agree. I know a thing or two about later sequels retconning things that change the perception of events from older entries. Take the new Disney-led Star Wars movies, for example, but I digress. What Toyotaro did here wasn't a hard retcon. He never had Roshi say Goku had always done this, just that Goku lost sight of it in this particular case. And he's 100% right.

In cases like the Saiyans, Namek, and Cell, raising your power level is the right choice. No amount of tranquility could overcome the massive gap in power (as demonstrated by Roshi getting clobbered by Jiren). Goku isn't a "scrublord"; he just needed outside advice this one time from someone who is centuries-older than him. It's not an issue.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

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