"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Pannaliciour » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:39 pm

Miracles wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Why is this chapter telling us to rely on technique instead of power (Roshi)? Dudee, without a power boost your technique is worthless in dragon-world. How will Goku (if he manage to have UI) defeat Jiren if he only can dodge his punches but not hurt him? Thats a contradiction. This kind of technique what Roshi is referring to is only effective if your power-level is close of that of your opponent.

For example: In this chapter there was a panel that showed Goku succesfully hit Jiren but it didn't hurt him. The problem in previous chapters of the saga wasn't that Goku could not hit Jiren or could not dodge Jiren, but that the power difference is to big to actually do something.

But then out of no where there is Roshi telling is to rely on technique (especially the dodging-technique). I am like: dodging was never the problem to beat Jiren, but hurting him. Therefore with this technique there also should be a power boost otherwise its either bad writing or uneffective.

Even in the anime Goku received a power boost when attaining UI.

And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?
Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
Still doesn't explain why Jiren could not hit Roshi and why he had to block Roshi's attack.

Look I always said its a kid show so dont be hard on it. But come on Roshi is like kid Goku strength. We are talking about GoD or above Tier opponent. Why didn"t Roshi pull this technique against the freeza Soldiers?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheOne » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:46 pm

Miracles wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Why is this chapter telling us to rely on technique instead of power (Roshi)? Dudee, without a power boost your technique is worthless in dragon-world. How will Goku (if he manage to have UI) defeat Jiren if he only can dodge his punches but not hurt him? Thats a contradiction. This kind of technique what Roshi is referring to is only effective if your power-level is close of that of your opponent.

For example: In this chapter there was a panel that showed Goku succesfully hit Jiren but it didn't hurt him. The problem in previous chapters of the saga wasn't that Goku could not hit Jiren or could not dodge Jiren, but that the power difference is to big to actually do something.

But then out of no where there is Roshi telling is to rely on technique (especially the dodging-technique). I am like: dodging was never the problem to beat Jiren, but hurting him. Therefore with this technique there also should be a power boost otherwise its either bad writing or uneffective.

Even in the anime Goku received a power boost when attaining UI.

And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?
Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
And where exactly was this “spiritual tranquility” that was necessary when Roshi fought King Piccolo? Roshi could’ve definitely used some raw power right there instead of dying using the mafuba. Just because he uses tranquility does not mean that his body is physically capable of keeping up with Jiren.

I get what they’re trying to do but there are better ways of accomplishing the goal without contradicting previous DB and Z logic. It really does make me wonder if any of these people working there really watched/read the series. Maybe they were casual fans. Toriyama forgot that he even had a Broly series.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Pannaliciour » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:46 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote: And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?
That's like asking why is fourth form Freeza dodging Piccolo, Krillin, and Gohan's attack during the Namek saga? The reason why fighters block or dodge at all is because that is the proper way to fight regardless of who your opponent is. This is martial arts. You can't get overconfident and then get lazy to not dodge/block. If some old man just started charging at your face, are you going to let him hit you? Let's say if a baby were to try to punch your face, would you let it hit you? Your natural reaction is to avoid or block it.[
Thats a contraction, because why was Jiren supressed on the first place and didn't he just tap Roshi out immediately? Or was Jiren overconfident?

Btw Freeza didn't block when Nail attacked him?

Cell didn't block when Hercule attacked him.

Cell didn't block when Krillin attackes him

Cell 2d form didn't block when adroid 16 attacked him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:54 pm

Pannaliciour wrote: Thats a contraction, because why was Jiren supressed on the first place and didn't he just tap Roshi out immediately? Or was Jiren overconfident?
I've said this already numerous times in this thread but I guess it gets lost. An old man is suddenly charging at Jiren who as Kahseral has pointed out, has a "power level as low as dirt". If Jiren even uses an ounce of his power, he can kill Roshi and then be disqualified. Roshi is essentially a fly and a fly can be annoying temporarily but it is eventually defeated (unless you're Saitama). Roshi lasted for 2 seconds until he was karate chopped by Jiren. Roshi didn't move faster than Jiren to dodge those punches. The whole point of that was to show the importance of "movement" in martial arts. That, even a fighter as weak as Roshi with proper movement can make a difference. He anticipated and predicted those punches to move out of the way as Korin taught him hundreds of years ago. Jiren could've just blown Roshi away with just a ki wave of his hand alternatively. As strong as Jiren is, he knows about ki control. If Whis can hold the wings of a bee in RoF, Jiren can certainly hold back enough to knock out an old geezer without killing him. Jiren is a martial artist and a good martial artist doesn't get lazy and just stand there to let opponents attack his face, etc. Blocking and dodging are habits.
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Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
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Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Pannaliciour » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:03 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote: Thats a contraction, because why was Jiren supressed on the first place and didn't he just tap Roshi out immediately? Or was Jiren overconfident?
I've said this already numerous times in this thread but I guess it gets lost. An old man is suddenly charging at Jiren who as Kahseral has pointed out, has a "power level as low as dirt". If Jiren even uses an ounce of his power, he can kill Roshi and then be disqualified. Roshi is essentially a fly and a fly can be annoying temporarily but it is eventually defeated (unless you're Saitama). Roshi lasted for 2 seconds until he was karate chopped by Jiren. Roshi didn't move faster than Jiren to dodge those punches. The whole point of that was to show the importance of "movement" in martial arts. That, even a fighter as weak as Roshi with proper movement can make a difference. He anticipated and predicted those punches to move out of the way as Korin taught him hundreds of years ago. Jiren could've just blown Roshi away with just a ki wave of his hand alternatively. As strong as Jiren is, he knows about ki control. If Whis can hold the wings of a bee in RoF, Jiren can certainly hold back enough to knock out an old geezer without killing him. Jiren is a martial artist and a good martial artist doesn't get lazy and just stand there to let opponents attack his face, etc. Blocking and dodging are habits.
2 panels earlierer he didn't block against Goku's punch.

You sir are speaking like you have created Jiren and Roshi. Like you know how things work, without proper facts. You are just assuming. I come with facts, my facts are based of observation in the manga. You are guessing.

There is no point in talking to you. If you are capable of defending this.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kokonoe » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:09 pm

Pannaliciour wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote: Thats a contraction, because why was Jiren supressed on the first place and didn't he just tap Roshi out immediately? Or was Jiren overconfident?
I've said this already numerous times in this thread but I guess it gets lost. An old man is suddenly charging at Jiren who as Kahseral has pointed out, has a "power level as low as dirt". If Jiren even uses an ounce of his power, he can kill Roshi and then be disqualified. Roshi is essentially a fly and a fly can be annoying temporarily but it is eventually defeated (unless you're Saitama). Roshi lasted for 2 seconds until he was karate chopped by Jiren. Roshi didn't move faster than Jiren to dodge those punches. The whole point of that was to show the importance of "movement" in martial arts. That, even a fighter as weak as Roshi with proper movement can make a difference. He anticipated and predicted those punches to move out of the way as Korin taught him hundreds of years ago. Jiren could've just blown Roshi away with just a ki wave of his hand alternatively. As strong as Jiren is, he knows about ki control. If Whis can hold the wings of a bee in RoF, Jiren can certainly hold back enough to knock out an old geezer without killing him. Jiren is a martial artist and a good martial artist doesn't get lazy and just stand there to let opponents attack his face, etc. Blocking and dodging are habits.
Woww you really believe that? There is no point in talking to you. If you are capable of defending this.
It's time to stop getting so emotionally invested into fictional media to where you make responses like this. It's really unwarranted how any person making logical arguments or showing their approval of this chapter is being met with ignorant and rude behavior.

If you have no argument to contend with his argument then that's on you, not him. He made his point very clear. These random bits of rudeness are unnecessary.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:16 pm

Pannaliciour wrote: 2 panels earlierer he didn't block against Goku's punch.

You sir are speaking like you have created Jiren and Roshi. Like you know how things work, without proper facts. You are just assuming. I come with facts, my facts are based of observation in the manga. You are guessing.

There is no point in talking to you. If you are capable of defending this.
In martial arts, a fighter is free to block or dodge. It's really irrelevant that if Jiren chose to dodge Goku's punch that he wouldn't block a subsequent attack. In a fight, you do whatever you want to plan your next move. This is not based on assumption, but the actual principle in martial arts. If you want to talk about facts, use the entire Dragon Ball manga from 21st to 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai where fighters dodge and block interchangeably. Blocking a move doesn't mean it is going to hurt if you don't block it. A good martial artist should always block or dodge. Even if a baby tried to punch your face or an insect, you will react and either block or dodge. This is habit.

If you don't want to talk to me, then that's your choice lol.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:28 pm

emperior wrote:As an experienced fighter and hero, he should know the right amount of power to use to beat an opponent without killing.
You're either not understanding my point or not realizing that that is my point.

Like Kasheral, Jiren was accounting for Roshi's power. Like Kahseral, he wasn't accounting for Roshi's UI-esque movement trick. Like Kahseral, Jiren isn't omniscient. Everything that Roshi accomplished during this chapter was dependent on their lack of knowledge, because neither of them are familiar with Ultra Instinct or anything that would incorporate a similar principle. Roshi took advantage of that. Afterwards, Jiren adjusted his level further to compensate.

Like, I seriously don't know how the manga could have expressed this more eloquently than it did. Jiren, suppressed to a level appropriate for fighting Roshi, would have instantly one-shot him if the latter didn't possess this technique. We know this because... well, Jiren cleanly took him out with a single tap. That's exactly what happened.
emperior wrote: It’s only manga fans who ceaselessly defend it without ever criticising a single aspect of it.
I criticize the manga every month, bro. I don't know of a single user here who hasn't critiqued Toyotaro at least once. This is exactly what I meant when I previously tried to discourage you from engaging in these silly fan wars -- it accomplishes nothing, and only serves to make these discussions less conducive than they should be.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by FortuneSSJ » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:26 pm

-Chapter 39-

Toyotaro's writing skills just hit the bottom again with this chapter.

No matter the intention Roshi should never be able to dodge Jiren's punches. Even for someone like me that doesn't care about power levels, that was offensive and underwhelms Jiren.
How the hell I'm supposed to be impressed when someone stronger like Vegeta/Goku dodge his attacks now, when Roshi of all people did it?! Something like this would only make sense if it was closely after 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc. Right now the gap is too big between Roshi and the others, it's ridiculous. A retired old man just dodged the strongest mortal punches. No matter how much Jiren was holding back, this shouldn't have happened. I don't know what's more stupid here. The fact that Toyotaro thought this was a good idea or that Toriyama looked to his storyboard and approved this. WTF??! :roll:

Ultimate Gohan and SSJ (SSJ2?) Kefla double KO each other was also something I didn't like. My favourite DBS fight is Goku vs Caulifla/Kale/Kefla and not having that here is just heartbreaking. That means Ultimate Gohan was enough to solo Anilaza, because Berserker Kale did it and Kefla is much stronger. I'm not even surprised Kefla doesn't have any flashy attacks, considering how generic the fights have been in the manga. The developers would have a hard time creating the moveset for DBS characters in videogames, if they used the manga as main source.

I also don't see why Gohan fanboys say he finally got redeemed. There's nothing better in the manga than his fight against Goku and U6 Namekians in the anime.

Toyotaro humiliating newer characters in order to make the old characters shine is another problem. What's up with Kefla attitude saying she couldn't defeat a single saiyan and she wasn't a match to the almighty Universe 7?! She comes out as a weakling by saying that. It was the same thing with Hit in the beginning of ToP. He said he wouldn't lose to Goku this time, but he never lost to him in the first place. Same thing when Goku Black was humiliated by Vegeta twice, Merged Zamasu by SSB Vegettto / MSBB Goku and Caulifla by Cabba. Toyotaro was this tendency of making the newer characters come out as losers in favor to the older characters and I really don't like that.

Just like all the other Universes not even Universe 6 erasure was emotional, but I have been thinking and I can't remember any emotional scene in this manga...

Ultra Instinct Omen is worse here. Goku doesn't have his bland almost emotionless expression and he's skinny. Now I don't know if he's skinny because he still didn't mastered it or UI will be skinny in the manga, because Toriyama's UI design is nothing more than a recolor of his SSG design...

Oh well, just another chapter that shows the anime version is better than the manga.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:31 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Toriyama's writing wasn't poor. It's just poorly interpreted by fans. Dragon Ball was founded on the core principle of an adventure martial arts story based on Journey to the West. As I said previously, Goku learned about minimizing unnecessary movements from trying to catch Korin.
What you said changes absolutely nothing about what I said, in fact, its even worst since Goku learned and mastered what Korin taught him only to immediately forget it hours later when he confronts Mr. Popo. That's why I said Toriyama is a poor writer or maybe incompetent is probably a better word to use?
shadowfox87 wrote:Goku beat Tao Pai not just through gaining more power by climbing Korin's tower but also minimizing unnecessary movements.
Goku beat the crap out of Tao by being stronger and faster, that's undeniable no?
shadowfox87 wrote:As DBZ went on, Goku had to overcome the power gap between him and his opponents.
That's ignorant to say since the same theme existed in DB, you're just blindly ignoring them to push this false vision of DB you see in your head. This was true for Goku from 21st Budokai Roshi, to Tao Pai Pai, to Grandpa Gohan, to 22nd Budokai Tien, to demong king Piccolo, to Mr. Popo, to Kami, to 23rd budokai Piccolo, to Raditz, to Nappa, and to Vegeta. This is somethibg that happens in each saga of DB yet you are trying to paint the picture of this only occuring with Freeza which is blatantly false.

Like I said before, thos was a problem with DB from day 1.
shadowfox87 wrote:Goku will not gain more power than Jiren.
I can guarantee you UI will make Goku much faster and stronger than before since this is the main theme and consistency with DB.
shadowfox87 wrote:That has nothing to do with zenkai. Vegeta spent a year in the ROSAT training.
I meant to say when Goku and Vegeta hit a wall they simply train to jump over said wall or use whatever plot device to achieve the same result.
shadowfox87 wrote:Goku and Krillin got stronger through training of course, but if you watched any Dragon Ball at all, you'll know that there was several techniques and strategies used during those fights.
Sure, when the much stronger fighter hikds back to the level of the weaker fight or characters are near equal stats, when they aren't we get 21st Budokai Roshi vs Kuririn, Tao Pai Pai vs Goku (Round 1), Goku vs. The Mummy, Goku vs Tambourine, old Piccolo vs Goku, Goku vs Drum, Goku first Mr. Popo, and Kami finger flicking Goku's full force punch like he's a mere bug.
shadowfox87 wrote:Now, he has enough transformations.
White haired UI is just another transformation in an excessively long line of forms, we still have super saiyan recolor brown, orange, purple, and rainbow edition to go through in the future.
shadowfox87 wrote:There's nothing to really disagree. It's been shown in real life.
Real life =/= greatly exaggerated mystical super powered kung fu, agree to disagree.
shadowfox87 wrote:That's what Dragon Ball is for you. Not for me.
That's what DB is for anyone being objective with no bias. You can love DB all you want, that's not what I'm discussing though. What I am stating is strongly disapproving of this whole rose tinted view and revisionist history of original DB in play.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:40 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Noah wrote:Why? Sure the chapter was terrible, but this scene was okay, I guess.
No, it was awful. I don't understand the people who sit here and claim with a straight face that it was a good scene, or that it was "subtle" and "nuanced." There was no emotional weight to it. Vados sits there like "oh that just happened" and Beerus reacts as if a nuisance just died, "oh, Champa died? That guy was a douche anyway." How the fuck is it nuanced when nobody gives a shit about his death and how is it subtle when Champa literally goes on a rant before he dies? Toyotaro legitimately cannot write anything properly at this point. None of his scenes have any sort of impact because of his dumb expressions and the lack of weight in the reactions.
While I do agree a lot with this thought and believe that the anime did better when Champa said farewell to Beerus, I don't see how in the manga it was out of character at all, I mean besides his wish in the U6 arc, Beerus never showed any affection to Champa in both medias. I could agree it was he was very insensitive to his own brother, but that could be expected due their relationship.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:46 pm

Noah wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Noah wrote:Why? Sure the chapter was terrible, but this scene was okay, I guess.
No, it was awful. I don't understand the people who sit here and claim with a straight face that it was a good scene, or that it was "subtle" and "nuanced." There was no emotional weight to it. Vados sits there like "oh that just happened" and Beerus reacts as if a nuisance just died, "oh, Champa died? That guy was a douche anyway." How the fuck is it nuanced when nobody gives a shit about his death and how is it subtle when Champa literally goes on a rant before he dies? Toyotaro legitimately cannot write anything properly at this point. None of his scenes have any sort of impact because of his dumb expressions and the lack of weight in the reactions.
While I do agree a lot with this thought and believe that the anime did better when Champa said farewell to Beerus, I don't see how in the manga it was out of character at all, I mean besides his wish in the U6 arc, Beerus never showed any affection to Champa in both medias. I could agree it was he was very insensitive to his own brother, but that could be expected due their relationship.
Wasting his wish on his brother obviously proves Beerus cares about Champa. That's enough to infer they may bicker but still care about each-other like typical brothers. Beerus acting like some random nobody died is out-od-character when you take into account what he did at the end of the U6 arc. This is Beerus, a petty mass murderer, not a character who's nice on a daily basis.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:25 pm

lord turbo wrote:What you said changes absolutely nothing about what I said, in fact, its even worst since Goku learned and mastered what Korin taught him only to immediately forget it hours later when he confronts Mr. Popo. That's why I said Toriyama is a poor writer or maybe incompetent is probably a better word to use?
You expect a fighter to master something in three days which took Roshi in three years? Umm ok. You realize that Korin was only just the preliminary step. Each new master adds another layer of training to Goku's arsenal. Mr. Popo's training of being "quiet as the sky" and "quicker than lightning" was part of this. I don't really understand why you think Toriyama is incompetent if Goku has to continually learn from his masters. That's part of the story. Would you rather have a story where the main character knows everything and just beats all his enemies effortlessly?
lord turbo wrote:Goku beat the crap out of Tao by being stronger and faster, that's undeniable no?
Speed and power mean nothing if you don't control it. Just speed by itself doesn't give the ability to land a punch. What Goku learned from Korin is to anticipate. Goku spent hours trying to catch Korin and it didn't work. He couldn't figure it out. Just being faster alone is not enough, but what Goku did was anticipate where Korin would be and then jump there. A person without prior martial arts training or knowledge may watch this show and will say, "Goku just beat the crap out of Tao", ignoring all the martial arts training and technique behind it.
lord turbo wrote:That's ignorant to say since the same theme existed in DB, you're just blindly ignoring them to push this false vision of DB you see in your head. This was true for Goku from 21st Budokai Roshi, to Tao Pai Pai, to Grandpa Gohan, to 22nd Budokai Tien, to demong king Piccolo, to Mr. Popo, to Kami, to 23rd budokai Piccolo, to Raditz, to Nappa, and to Vegeta. This is somethibg that happens in each saga of DB yet you are trying to paint the picture of this only occuring with Freeza which is blatantly false.
Umm no? The official power levels of DB are out even today. Tenshinhan and Goku had a power level of 180 during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. The only way to overcome each other hence was through technique. Goku and King Piccolo both had a power level of 260. Power is always a component of training. However, it's unwise to ignore technique which is the very foundation of what martial arts is about. If you only care about power, might as well just become a body builder and just lift weights. Goku didn't meet opponents with a huge power gap until DBZ where he met Freeza. This is where the theme of DBZ switched to Super Saiyan transformations and overcoming more power gaps. The primary focus of the original Dragon Ball was technique, not power. If you prefer a show where fighters just scream, get more powerful, and transform like most of DBZ, then be my guest. The original DB was not like this.
lord turbo wrote:I can guarantee you UI will make Goku much faster and stronger than before since this is the main theme and consistency with DB.
Then let us wait and watch. My theory is that UI is not a boost in speed or power. It's a state of mind where one can subconsciously move the body to dodge any attack - mastery of self-movement, exactly as Whis said.
lord turbo wrote: I meant to say when Goku and Vegeta hit a wall they simply train to jump over said wall or use whatever plot device to achieve the same result.
Of course, they will continue to train to get stronger. Nobody said that was going to change. However, when breaking a "wall", it's not through more training. One has to realize what is lacking in their ability and overcome that. Goku has to reach beyond just power and become a true martial artist. If Goku will train in the ROSAT with weights, etc., of course he will get stronger, but will he become a better fighter? Will have learned any new techniques? This is again the same analogy between a bodybuilder and a martial artist.
lord turbo wrote: Sure, when the much stronger fighter hikds back to the level of the weaker fight or characters are near equal stats, when they aren't we get 21st Budokai Roshi vs Kuririn, Tao Pai Pai vs Goku (Round 1), Goku vs. The Mummy, Goku vs Tambourine, old Piccolo vs Goku, Goku vs Drum, Goku first Mr. Popo, and Kami finger flicking Goku's full force punch like he's a mere bug.
As I said before, both power and technique are important. If your power is not high enough, regardless of the technique, you will not be able to inflict damage. There has been enough examples already stated in this thread of weaker opponents defeating stronger ones from DB to DBZ. Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks vs Perfect Cell, Raditz vs Goku & Piccolo, Gamisaras, Akuuman, Dyspo, Kid Buu vs South Kaioshin, etc.
lord turbo wrote: White haired UI is just another transformation in an excessively long line of forms, we still have super saiyan recolor brown, orange, purple, and rainbow edition to go through in the future.
If you want Super Saiyan Power Rangers, then be my guest.
lord turbo wrote:Real life =/= greatly exaggerated mystical super powered kung fu, agree to disagree.
I gave you a real life example based on martial arts. Dragon Ball was based on the core principle of adventure, fantasy, martial arts. The original story is based on "Journey to the West". You can even use the genre of "wuxia" which is more related to Dragon Ball. In all cases of "wuxia" stories, the main character is a weak, skinny person that is trying to increase their cultivation (ki). At the same time, the main character learns new techniques to add to their arsenal. It's not simply just an increase in ki.
lord turbo wrote:That's what DB is for anyone being objective with no bias. You can love DB all you want, that's not what I'm discussing though. What I am stating is strongly disapproving of this whole rose tinted view and revisionist history of original DB in play.
It's not objective. Your perspective and mine are both subjective. It's a fact that in the original Dragon Ball, there was a lot of martial arts, tactics, and technique. You can ignore that and just say that DBZ is all about power, screaming, and transformations so to be consistent, DBS should continue down that path.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kudo6000 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:25 pm

Horrible chapter. The impressive choreography for Gohan vs Kafla wasn’t enough to save it, either. Toyotarou doesn’t give enough redemption points for this manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:16 pm

This chapter has officially settled things for me. I can now safely say that despite its many problems, I preferred the anime version of this arc over what the manga has been giving us so far. It’s bad enough that the previous chapter gave us such anticlimactic ends for the other universes, but Universe 6’s elimination also felt rather underwhelming. I realize that in some ways, it’s unfair to compare how the anime handles these kinds of things versus the manga, since the manga isn’t aided by music and voice acting, but Kefla’s elimination felt like a cheap after thought. She didn’t go out with a bang. It also doesn’t help that while the anime showed that Vegeta was personally affected by Cabba’s erasure, the manga didn’t have him react to it at all.

With that being said, despite my problems, the whole thing with Roshi dodging Jiren’s attacks didn’t bother me all that much. It is a little weird that Toyatoro decided to give him a big moment against Jiren of all people, but I guess I can sort of see the rationale in having him be the one who helps bring out UI, considering that he was arguably Goku’s most prominent mentor in the series.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ahill1 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:32 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Noah wrote:and Goku who trained with him and more powerful masters (before Whis) had never show a small glimpse of this technique
They absolutely have discussed this kind of concept before. They even go out of their way to remind you right there in the chapter itself with just a few of the countless times it's been brought up in the history of the franchise:

Image

All of that stuff references actual conversations from the original series where the same basic principles were being discussed. Ultra Instinct is a wholly consistent concept based on previous material. Sure, it's not by name, but I think part of the point of what they're going for here: all roads seem to lead to this end-point in martial arts.

I have a lot of issues with a lot of what's going on in Super overall, both in anime and manga form including a ton of the surrounding context in this chapter itself, but Ultra Instinct and its rollout as a concept is in no way one of those issues.
I don't know whether I like it though... whilst I have yet to read the full chapter and not just see images spread out in the internet, does that imply Goku temporarily forgot to incorporate/integrate Kami's teachings when fighting? I know that Goku did still employ such when dodging Tenshinhan in the 23rd Budokai, and I always thought such was a teaching that Goku embraced for all of his subsequent fights, hence not liking the possible idea of Goku just not taking them into account until Kame-Sen'nin mentioned it again.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:00 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Why is this chapter telling us to rely on technique instead of power (Roshi)? Dudee, without a power boost your technique is worthless in dragon-world. How will Goku (if he manage to have UI) defeat Jiren if he only can dodge his punches but not hurt him? Thats a contradiction. This kind of technique what Roshi is referring to is only effective if your power-level is close of that of your opponent.

For example: In this chapter there was a panel that showed Goku succesfully hit Jiren but it didn't hurt him. The problem in previous chapters of the saga wasn't that Goku could not hit Jiren or could not dodge Jiren, but that the power difference is to big to actually do something.

But then out of no where there is Roshi telling is to rely on technique (especially the dodging-technique). I am like: dodging was never the problem to beat Jiren, but hurting him. Therefore with this technique there also should be a power boost otherwise its either bad writing or uneffective.

Even in the anime Goku received a power boost when attaining UI.

And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?
Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
Which in and of itself is stupid in terms of the way most power ups work in Dragonball. If Goku gets a new form, aside from rare exceptions, he would have gotten a speed boost anyway that would allow him to fight at Jiren's level. UI SHOULD only be about instinctual movement, maximizing his reactions and utilize the full capacity of his combat speed. Even without THAT though, had he just gotten a regular transformation that brought him to Jiren's level, he'd likely still have an advantage with other techniques.
Super Saiyan was triggered by rage. Ultra Instinct is set off by separating thought and movement. These invisible principles attaining new forms works for DB.
TheOne wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Why is this chapter telling us to rely on technique instead of power (Roshi)? Dudee, without a power boost your technique is worthless in dragon-world. How will Goku (if he manage to have UI) defeat Jiren if he only can dodge his punches but not hurt him? Thats a contradiction. This kind of technique what Roshi is referring to is only effective if your power-level is close of that of your opponent.

For example: In this chapter there was a panel that showed Goku succesfully hit Jiren but it didn't hurt him. The problem in previous chapters of the saga wasn't that Goku could not hit Jiren or could not dodge Jiren, but that the power difference is to big to actually do something.

But then out of no where there is Roshi telling is to rely on technique (especially the dodging-technique). I am like: dodging was never the problem to beat Jiren, but hurting him. Therefore with this technique there also should be a power boost otherwise its either bad writing or uneffective.

Even in the anime Goku received a power boost when attaining UI.

And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?
Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
And where exactly was this “spiritual tranquility” that was necessary when Roshi fought King Piccolo? Roshi could’ve definitely used some raw power right there instead of dying using the mafuba. Just because he uses tranquility does not mean that his body is physically capable of keeping up with Jiren.

I get what they’re trying to do but there are better ways of accomplishing the goal without contradicting previous DB and Z logic. It really does make me wonder if any of these people working there really watched/read the series. Maybe they were casual fans. Toriyama forgot that he even had a Broly series.
Popo: "Be as tranquil as the heavens and quick as a bolt from the blue."
The technique Roshi used did in fact increase his speed/movement, etc.
The moves were so strong Goku even wondered how Roshi could move like that.
So whatever speed/reaction Roshi did at that moment was indeed at a high level.

As for Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, he was wide open after Roshi danced on him and possibly Roshi was going for a vital point. So it's natural to block and protect a weak spot.
Pannaliciour wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Why is this chapter telling us to rely on technique instead of power (Roshi)? Dudee, without a power boost your technique is worthless in dragon-world. How will Goku (if he manage to have UI) defeat Jiren if he only can dodge his punches but not hurt him? Thats a contradiction. This kind of technique what Roshi is referring to is only effective if your power-level is close of that of your opponent.

For example: In this chapter there was a panel that showed Goku succesfully hit Jiren but it didn't hurt him. The problem in previous chapters of the saga wasn't that Goku could not hit Jiren or could not dodge Jiren, but that the power difference is to big to actually do something.

But then out of no where there is Roshi telling is to rely on technique (especially the dodging-technique). I am like: dodging was never the problem to beat Jiren, but hurting him. Therefore with this technique there also should be a power boost otherwise its either bad writing or uneffective.

Even in the anime Goku received a power boost when attaining UI.

And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?
Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
Still doesn't explain why Jiren could not hit Roshi and why he had to block Roshi's attack.


Look I always said its a kid show so dont be hard on it. But come on Roshi is like kid Goku strength. We are talking about GoD or above Tier opponent. Why didn"t Roshi pull this technique against the freeza Soldiers?
Cause Roshi was too busy teaching Krillin about having confidence in seeing his opponent after viewing some incredible ones before. I admit, I thought it wasn't a good idea to have Roshi demonstrate the dance moves against Jiren. Should of done it against a pride trooper. Just like I thought it was a bad idea for Gohan matching a potara without any explanation. It reminds me of Tienshinhan being able to subdue big lip Cell with Kikoho. DB has these kinds of moments. However, Roshi's innate skill allowed him to move well with heavy hitters. So much so, Goku was impressed and Beerus even thought it was UI he was using out there. The point...Whatever Roshi did put his movement ability at a high level.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:36 pm

Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote: Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
Which in and of itself is stupid in terms of the way most power ups work in Dragonball. If Goku gets a new form, aside from rare exceptions, he would have gotten a speed boost anyway that would allow him to fight at Jiren's level. UI SHOULD only be about instinctual movement, maximizing his reactions and utilize the full capacity of his combat speed. Even without THAT though, had he just gotten a regular transformation that brought him to Jiren's level, he'd likely still have an advantage with other techniques.
Super Saiyan was triggered by rage. Ultra Instinct is set off by separating thought and movement. These invisible principles attaining new forms works for DB.
TheOne wrote:
Miracles wrote: Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
And where exactly was this “spiritual tranquility” that was necessary when Roshi fought King Piccolo? Roshi could’ve definitely used some raw power right there instead of dying using the mafuba. Just because he uses tranquility does not mean that his body is physically capable of keeping up with Jiren.

I get what they’re trying to do but there are better ways of accomplishing the goal without contradicting previous DB and Z logic. It really does make me wonder if any of these people working there really watched/read the series. Maybe they were casual fans. Toriyama forgot that he even had a Broly series.
Popo: "Be as tranquil as the heavens and quick as a bolt from the blue."
The technique Roshi used did in fact increase his speed/movement, etc.
The moves were so strong Goku even wondered how Roshi could move like that.
So whatever speed/reaction Roshi did at that moment was indeed at a high level.

As for Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, he was wide open after Roshi danced on him and possibly Roshi was going for a vital point. So it's natural to block and protect a weak spot.
Pannaliciour wrote:
Miracles wrote: Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
Still doesn't explain why Jiren could not hit Roshi and why he had to block Roshi's attack.


Look I always said its a kid show so dont be hard on it. But come on Roshi is like kid Goku strength. We are talking about GoD or above Tier opponent. Why didn"t Roshi pull this technique against the freeza Soldiers?
Cause Roshi was too busy teaching Krillin about having confidence in seeing his opponent after viewing some incredible ones before. I admit, I thought it wasn't a good idea to have Roshi demonstrate the dance moves against Jiren. Should of done it against a pride trooper. Just like I thought it was a bad idea for Gohan matching a potara without any explanation. It reminds me of Tienshinhan being able to subdue big lip Cell with Kikoho. DB has these kinds of moments. However, Roshi's innate skill allowed him to move well with heavy hitters. So much so, Goku was impressed and Beerus even thought it was UI he was using out there. The point...Whatever Roshi did put his movement ability at a high level.
This i can agree with on some level. Unfortunately, another problem with Roshi doing this and matching up to Jiren is that in the hands of Goku, nobody om his level will be able to fight him unless they have ultra instinct themselves AND are as strong as he. Let's be honest, if there turns out to be a host of fighters with this skill it will end up becoming another "bargain sale".

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:45 pm

Rebel Instinct wrote:snip
I appreciate it. Thanks to everyone else who chimed in. I'm glad your break helped, and I look forward to reading your posts again.

I think a large part of it has to do with social media, not just Kanzenshuu. No matter where I go online, I feel like I can't escape this sort of thing. I don't have the enthusiasm nor the energy to fight every single battle I encounter anymore, so I'll just work on giving my two cents and letting the little things go. Either way, I don't appreciate it when people constantly complain without making a change, so I'll leave it at that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:59 pm

I admit that Roshi's pep talk was nice, but his intervention was like 6 arcs too late.
I had a better feeling with that spoiler last week than after reading the whole chapter. Gohan vs Kefla seems like an awesome fight to narrow it down to "oh it looks like it's almost over" and not even explaining how did Gohan do all that, and the kyoudai's goodbye was nothing special, actually nothing at all (as always in the manga)

And UI? man, I just hope kansei migatte no gokui makes up for this.

Overall, I still feel disappointed but the Roshi thing wasn't as bad as it seemed, and Vegeta vs Toppo looks good.

oh, was that blue kaioken? Krillin said so but just a couple of days ago some Toei dude said kaioken and dark blue Vegeta were anime only, so... ?

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