lord turbo wrote:What you said changes absolutely nothing about what I said, in fact, its even worst since Goku learned and mastered what Korin taught him only to immediately forget it hours later when he confronts Mr. Popo. That's why I said Toriyama is a poor writer or maybe incompetent is probably a better word to use?
You expect a fighter to master something in three days which took Roshi in three years? Umm ok. You realize that Korin was only just the preliminary step. Each new master adds another layer of training to Goku's arsenal. Mr. Popo's training of being "quiet as the sky" and "quicker than lightning" was part of this. I don't really understand why you think Toriyama is incompetent if Goku has to continually learn from his masters. That's part of the story. Would you rather have a story where the main character knows everything and just beats all his enemies effortlessly?
lord turbo wrote:Goku beat the crap out of Tao by being stronger and faster, that's undeniable no?
Speed and power mean nothing if you don't control it. Just speed by itself doesn't give the ability to land a punch. What Goku learned from Korin is to anticipate. Goku spent hours trying to catch Korin and it didn't work. He couldn't figure it out. Just being faster alone is not enough, but what Goku did was anticipate where Korin would be and then jump there. A person without prior martial arts training or knowledge may watch this show and will say, "Goku just beat the crap out of Tao", ignoring all the martial arts training and technique behind it.
lord turbo wrote:That's ignorant to say since the same theme existed in DB, you're just blindly ignoring them to push this false vision of DB you see in your head. This was true for Goku from 21st Budokai Roshi, to Tao Pai Pai, to Grandpa Gohan, to 22nd Budokai Tien, to demong king Piccolo, to Mr. Popo, to Kami, to 23rd budokai Piccolo, to Raditz, to Nappa, and to Vegeta. This is somethibg that happens in each saga of DB yet you are trying to paint the picture of this only occuring with Freeza which is blatantly false.
Umm no? The official power levels of DB are out even today. Tenshinhan and Goku had a power level of 180 during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. The only way to overcome each other hence was through technique. Goku and King Piccolo both had a power level of 260. Power is always a component of training. However, it's unwise to ignore technique which is the very foundation of what martial arts is about. If you only care about power, might as well just become a body builder and just lift weights. Goku didn't meet opponents with a huge power gap until DBZ where he met Freeza. This is where the theme of DBZ switched to Super Saiyan transformations and overcoming more power gaps. The primary focus of the original Dragon Ball was technique, not power. If you prefer a show where fighters just scream, get more powerful, and transform like most of DBZ, then be my guest. The original DB was not like this.
lord turbo wrote:I can guarantee you UI will make Goku much faster and stronger than before since this is the main theme and consistency with DB.
Then let us wait and watch. My theory is that UI is not a boost in speed or power. It's a state of mind where one can subconsciously move the body to dodge any attack - mastery of self-movement, exactly as Whis said.
lord turbo wrote:
I meant to say when Goku and Vegeta hit a wall they simply train to jump over said wall or use whatever plot device to achieve the same result.
Of course, they will continue to train to get stronger. Nobody said that was going to change. However, when breaking a "wall", it's not through more training. One has to realize what is lacking in their ability and overcome that. Goku has to reach beyond just power and become a true martial artist. If Goku will train in the ROSAT with weights, etc., of course he will get stronger, but will he become a better fighter? Will have learned any new techniques? This is again the same analogy between a bodybuilder and a martial artist.
lord turbo wrote:
Sure, when the much stronger fighter hikds back to the level of the weaker fight or characters are near equal stats, when they aren't we get 21st Budokai Roshi vs Kuririn, Tao Pai Pai vs Goku (Round 1), Goku vs. The Mummy, Goku vs Tambourine, old Piccolo vs Goku, Goku vs Drum, Goku first Mr. Popo, and Kami finger flicking Goku's full force punch like he's a mere bug.
As I said before, both power and technique are important. If your power is not high enough, regardless of the technique, you will not be able to inflict damage. There has been enough examples already stated in this thread of weaker opponents defeating stronger ones from DB to DBZ. Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks vs Perfect Cell, Raditz vs Goku & Piccolo, Gamisaras, Akuuman, Dyspo, Kid Buu vs South Kaioshin, etc.
lord turbo wrote:
White haired UI is just another transformation in an excessively long line of forms, we still have super saiyan recolor brown, orange, purple, and rainbow edition to go through in the future.
If you want Super Saiyan Power Rangers, then be my guest.
lord turbo wrote:Real life =/= greatly exaggerated mystical super powered kung fu, agree to disagree.
I gave you a real life example based on martial arts. Dragon Ball was based on the core principle of adventure, fantasy, martial arts. The original story is based on "Journey to the West". You can even use the genre of "wuxia" which is more related to Dragon Ball. In all cases of "wuxia" stories, the main character is a weak, skinny person that is trying to increase their cultivation (ki). At the same time, the main character learns new techniques to add to their arsenal. It's not simply just an increase in ki.
lord turbo wrote:That's what DB is for anyone being objective with no bias. You can love DB all you want, that's not what I'm discussing though. What I am stating is strongly disapproving of this whole rose tinted view and revisionist history of original DB in play.
It's not objective. Your perspective and mine are both subjective. It's a fact that in the original Dragon Ball, there was a lot of martial arts, tactics, and technique. You can ignore that and just say that DBZ is all about power, screaming, and transformations so to be consistent, DBS should continue down that path.