"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:13 pm

batistabus wrote:I don't have the enthusiasm nor the energy to fight every single battle I encounter anymore, so I'll just work on giving my two cents and letting the little things go.
That's certainly the best approach. Don't make the same mistake I'm making right now where I'm actively engaging all the shit-flinging and trying to address certain individuals who, in my opinion, dramatically overreact to things that they don't have the full context for. That's not to say that there aren't some perfectly valid criticisms of the manga, or hell, this very chapter, but some people take it way further than it ever needed to go (like demanding that an author be fired, for example). The trick is to recognize the dishonesty and ignore it; advice that I need to work on following myself. Fandoms will be fandoms.

It's funny, because I was so caught up in this stuff that I haven't even posted my thoughts on the actual chapter yet. Even funnier is the fact they're not as positive as they were for most previous chapters in the tournament: I think Toyotaro made some rather major missteps this month.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeztin » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:17 pm

Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote: Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
Which in and of itself is stupid in terms of the way most power ups work in Dragonball. If Goku gets a new form, aside from rare exceptions, he would have gotten a speed boost anyway that would allow him to fight at Jiren's level. UI SHOULD only be about instinctual movement, maximizing his reactions and utilize the full capacity of his combat speed. Even without THAT though, had he just gotten a regular transformation that brought him to Jiren's level, he'd likely still have an advantage with other techniques.
Super Saiyan was triggered by rage. Ultra Instinct is set off by separating thought and movement. These invisible principles attaining new forms works for DB.


I wonder if Broly's transformation is triggered by some sort of ultimate level of pain/agony.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Omniboy » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:29 pm

... Not really sure. Everybody already went over the problems with Goku's character throughout this chapter, so I won't repeat it, but the solution to this problem is simple: Have Gohan pair up with Master Roshi to take on Kelfa. Roshi can be both a teacher to Gohan (instead of to Goku) as well as a teammate, aiding him along the way with Master Roshi being the brains and Gohan being the brawns. Seeing as to how Gohan never paired up with him this would have been great, and perhaps could have been his best chapter of the tournament so far. The worst thing about this is that Toyo built Caulifla and Kale up for 3 chapters, finally fusing them, only send them out in the most anti-climatic way. I know people are saying that Toyo is being rushed, and I agree, but he could have still found a way to eliminate all 3 of them in one single chapter without rushing Kefla of all people.

To be honest however, I don't have much of any problem with Roshi using a very weak UI. In fact I agree with Marlowe89 on how the mechanic of it works. I mean Beerus was also using some version of it when he was fighting against the other GoDs, and Whis described it as: "His body can sense attacks and make decisions to dodge them." Apparently people mistook that for Beerus being the strongest GoD for despite it being an obvious foreshadow to UI. Some people take the arm wrestling thing with the rat as some indicator of Beerus being among the strongest, which now that I think about seems so silly. Beerus also states it as a technique rather than than going "WOW!!! His power has risen incredibly," or "He's has become as powerful as a GOD," or some other generic reaction line. Maybe Toyo should have better explained it in this chapter, as well how and when Roshi attained this technique. I will just have to see how they explain Goku's UI later on in the upcoming chapters, I guess.

This chapter was just... disappointing. I hope he make the next few better. Depending on how much time he is given. That being said, a lot of people are overreacting. Seriously... firing him? Should all of the anime staff be fired because I didn't like their story?

His art seems to be getting better by the way.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Raphael_Z » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:01 am

Kanassa wrote:
Raphael_Z wrote:It could be because Kefla is unable to "unlock" Kale's Legendary Saiyan Powers. Imagine for a second that Goku and Mr. Satan had fused during the Boo Saga. Would anyone be surprised that Mr. Gotan (Mr. Saku?) is unable to turn SSJ3 and is actually weaker than Goku pre-fusion?
Yes, because that would make no sense on how Potara fusions work unless Satan was in some sort of weird special condition before hand. 100 + 1 is still a plus even if it's low.
Wasn't Merged Zamasu falling apart and becoming a Hulk-like monster because the Goku Black half couldn't handle the immortal aspect of the Zamasu half?

I can definitely imagine Toyotaro justifying Gohan being equal to Kefla by saying that Kefla wasn't able to fully access Kale's Legendary Super Saiyan form (of which we know nothing about its origins in the Toriyama canon).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cetra » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:13 am

Raphael_Z wrote: Wasn't Merged Zamasu falling apart and becoming a Hulk-like monster because the Goku Black half couldn't handle the immortal aspect of the Zamasu half?

I can definitely imagine Toyotaro justifying Gohan being equal to Kefla by saying that Kefla wasn't able to fully access Kale's Legendary Super Saiyan form (of which we know nothing about its origins in the Toriyama canon).
The manga did not care about the mortality state of the fusion components. Also it is something completely different because two mortality states lead to something paradoxical. In case of Kafla we just have two powers fusing. There is never anything said about "y is incompatible with x and thus z cannot use x's benefits fully". There is no rule for that mentioned.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The gr » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:05 am

The Manga went rock bottom again.
    I didn't cared for Gohan vs Kefla or Goku vs Jiren and I mentioned in a thread that I don't mind Goku being motivated to trigger UI but it could have been done better because is pointless having Roshi doing a prototype version cuz Beerus just did that in the exhibition.
      I really have no hope for next month because I know the Manga will find a way to screws thing up.
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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by Kanassa » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:36 am

      Raphael_Z wrote:
      Kanassa wrote:
      Raphael_Z wrote:It could be because Kefla is unable to "unlock" Kale's Legendary Saiyan Powers. Imagine for a second that Goku and Mr. Satan had fused during the Boo Saga. Would anyone be surprised that Mr. Gotan (Mr. Saku?) is unable to turn SSJ3 and is actually weaker than Goku pre-fusion?
      Yes, because that would make no sense on how Potara fusions work unless Satan was in some sort of weird special condition before hand. 100 + 1 is still a plus even if it's low.
      Wasn't Merged Zamasu falling apart and becoming a Hulk-like monster because the Goku Black half couldn't handle the immortal aspect of the Zamasu half?

      I can definitely imagine Toyotaro justifying Gohan being equal to Kefla by saying that Kefla wasn't able to fully access Kale's Legendary Super Saiyan form (of which we know nothing about its origins in the Toriyama canon).
      Merged Zamasu had a unique situation of being incompatible in some ways. None of these were in the measure of power. It would make no sense for a fusion of two beings having one subtract power instead of adding it together just because one is weaker.
      When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by obiwan23s » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:13 am

      I think the manga version of the Tournament of Power is doing a good job addressing the stamina and power scaling problems that the anime had. I've heard a few people say that Gohan should not have been on the same level as Kefla but I think those people are paying too much attention to the fact that the anime put her on the same level as Goku. Kale and Caulifla have not been able to use Super Saiyan for all that long. Fusing into Kefla should put them slightly above Gotenks, but still nowhere near Vegito. Gohan's full power "mystic" form was supposed to be able to take out Super Boo, who Gotenks was not able to beat. I thought the manga did a great job not making Kefla overpowered.

      The writing is a little more balanced with Universe 7 not having to be featured eliminating practically everyone like they did in the anime. Part of that is Kale getting a bunch of eliminations on her own but it feels more like a battle royale story should in the manga. I hope Goku vs Jiren remains more or less the same, and I've really grown to like the Goku & Freeza teamup the anime did to give #17 the win. I hope that isn't changed but we'll have to wait and see.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by reecehoward » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:16 am

      obiwan23s wrote:I think the manga version of the Tournament of Power is doing a good job addressing the stamina and power scaling problems that the anime had. I've heard a few people say that Gohan should not have been on the same level as Kefla but I think those people are paying too much attention to the fact that the anime put her on the same level as Goku. Kale and Caulifla have not been able to use Super Saiyan for all that long. Fusing into Kefla should put them slightly above Gotenks, but still nowhere near Vegito. Gohan's full power "mystic" form was supposed to be able to take out Super Boo, who Gotenks was not able to beat. I thought the manga did a great job not making Kefla overpowered.

      The writing is a little more balanced with Universe 7 not having to be featured eliminating practically everyone like they did in the anime. Part of that is Kale getting a bunch of eliminations on her own but it feels more like a battle royale story should in the manga. I hope Goku vs Jiren remains more or less the same, and I've really grown to like the Goku & Freeza teamup the anime did to give #17 the win. I hope that isn't changed but we'll have to wait and see.
      No one has to compare the manga to the anime to think that something is off about Gohan stepping to Kefla. The fact that just a couple of chapters ago she was rag-dolling Golden Frieza and he himself implies he'd have to take her seriously or something to that effect, already is enough info to put her within batting range of that tier. Then add to the effect that she was able to momentarily gain momentum on Mssb Goku...with her only getting much stronger in the next chapter to the point if eliminating 4 universes with ease, this all implies she's hella strong and at least in the realm of power with the big dogs. Your mileage may vary on just where in that tier she stands. THEN she fuses with Caulifla, which would multiply her power many times over. Even a lowball multiplier of Kale's displayed power would put her on par with mssb tier. You don't need the anime to figure out why this is wonky for Gohan to be at that level with just regular gravity training and Piccolo...

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by HeroR » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:29 pm

      Kanassa wrote:
      Raphael_Z wrote:
      Kanassa wrote: Yes, because that would make no sense on how Potara fusions work unless Satan was in some sort of weird special condition before hand. 100 + 1 is still a plus even if it's low.
      Wasn't Merged Zamasu falling apart and becoming a Hulk-like monster because the Goku Black half couldn't handle the immortal aspect of the Zamasu half?

      I can definitely imagine Toyotaro justifying Gohan being equal to Kefla by saying that Kefla wasn't able to fully access Kale's Legendary Super Saiyan form (of which we know nothing about its origins in the Toriyama canon).
      Merged Zamasu had a unique situation of being incompatible in some ways. None of these were in the measure of power. It would make no sense for a fusion of two beings having one subtract power instead of adding it together just because one is weaker.
      To add, that was the anime. Merged Zamasu didn't have this issue in the manga. Also, nothing in the manga states that Kelfa was falling apart, unlike anime Merged Zamasu who was literally melting.
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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by The Monkey King » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:10 pm

      I think Toyo peaked with MSSJB Goku vs F. Zamasu

      [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

      It's a shame because I was really had somewhat high expectations for how he was going to portray the ToP

      But right now I have zero confidence in him.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by BrolySSJL » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:16 pm

      The Monkey King wrote:I think Toyo peaked with MSSJB Goku vs F. Zamasu

      [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

      It's a shame because I was really had somewhat high expectations for how he was going to portray the ToP

      But right now I have zero confidence in him.
      Zamasu arc in the manga is totally gorgeous, the best in Dragon Ball since the end of the original manga. I think the problem with ToP in the manga is that Jump, his editor or anyone else want to close this arc in a few months (before the release of the new film) and for that this arc is a little rushed. It's the only explanation when the last arc was phantastic.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:19 pm

      The Monkey King wrote:I think Toyo peaked with MSSJB Goku vs F. Zamasu

      [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

      It's a shame because I was really had somewhat high expectations for how he was going to portray the ToP

      But right now I have zero confidence in him.
      After rereading the entire arc very recently, it's pretty surprising how well the whole thing holds up.
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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:30 pm

      reecehoward wrote:
      Miracles wrote:
      reecehoward wrote:Which in and of itself is stupid in terms of the way most power ups work in Dragonball. If Goku gets a new form, aside from rare exceptions, he would have gotten a speed boost anyway that would allow him to fight at Jiren's level. UI SHOULD only be about instinctual movement, maximizing his reactions and utilize the full capacity of his combat speed. Even without THAT though, had he just gotten a regular transformation that brought him to Jiren's level, he'd likely still have an advantage with other techniques.
      Super Saiyan was triggered by rage. Ultra Instinct is set off by separating thought and movement. These invisible principles attaining new forms works for DB.
      TheOne wrote:
      And where exactly was this “spiritual tranquility” that was necessary when Roshi fought King Piccolo? Roshi could’ve definitely used some raw power right there instead of dying using the mafuba. Just because he uses tranquility does not mean that his body is physically capable of keeping up with Jiren.

      I get what they’re trying to do but there are better ways of accomplishing the goal without contradicting previous DB and Z logic. It really does make me wonder if any of these people working there really watched/read the series. Maybe they were casual fans. Toriyama forgot that he even had a Broly series.
      Popo: "Be as tranquil as the heavens and quick as a bolt from the blue."
      The technique Roshi used did in fact increase his speed/movement, etc.
      The moves were so strong Goku even wondered how Roshi could move like that.
      So whatever speed/reaction Roshi did at that moment was indeed at a high level.

      As for Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, he was wide open after Roshi danced on him and possibly Roshi was going for a vital point. So it's natural to block and protect a weak spot.
      Pannaliciour wrote:
      Still doesn't explain why Jiren could not hit Roshi and why he had to block Roshi's attack.


      Look I always said its a kid show so dont be hard on it. But come on Roshi is like kid Goku strength. We are talking about GoD or above Tier opponent. Why didn"t Roshi pull this technique against the freeza Soldiers?
      Cause Roshi was too busy teaching Krillin about having confidence in seeing his opponent after viewing some incredible ones before. I admit, I thought it wasn't a good idea to have Roshi demonstrate the dance moves against Jiren. Should of done it against a pride trooper. Just like I thought it was a bad idea for Gohan matching a potara without any explanation. It reminds me of Tienshinhan being able to subdue big lip Cell with Kikoho. DB has these kinds of moments. However, Roshi's innate skill allowed him to move well with heavy hitters. So much so, Goku was impressed and Beerus even thought it was UI he was using out there. The point...Whatever Roshi did put his movement ability at a high level.
      This i can agree with on some level. Unfortunately, another problem with Roshi doing this and matching up to Jiren is that in the hands of Goku, nobody om his level will be able to fight him unless they have ultra instinct themselves AND are as strong as he. Let's be honest, if there turns out to be a host of fighters with this skill it will end up becoming another "bargain sale".
      Yeah, but we know Ultra Instinct is Goku exclusive. Since Beerus himself stated Goku got it before he did this chapter. The point of Roshi's similar skill was to hype UI up to astronomic levels.
      Xeztin wrote:
      Miracles wrote:
      reecehoward wrote:Which in and of itself is stupid in terms of the way most power ups work in Dragonball. If Goku gets a new form, aside from rare exceptions, he would have gotten a speed boost anyway that would allow him to fight at Jiren's level. UI SHOULD only be about instinctual movement, maximizing his reactions and utilize the full capacity of his combat speed. Even without THAT though, had he just gotten a regular transformation that brought him to Jiren's level, he'd likely still have an advantage with other techniques.
      Super Saiyan was triggered by rage. Ultra Instinct is set off by separating thought and movement. These invisible principles attaining new forms works for DB.


      I wonder if Broly's transformation is triggered by some sort of ultimate level of pain/agony.
      Well we know particular emotions have something to do with Kale's berserker form, maybe Broly as well.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:36 pm

      The gr wrote:The Manga went rock bottom again.
        I didn't cared for Gohan vs Kefla or Goku vs Jiren and I mentioned in a thread that I don't mind Goku being motivated to trigger UI but it could have been done better because is pointless having Roshi doing a prototype version cuz Beerus just did that in the exhibition.
          I really have no hope for next month because I know the Manga will find a way to screws thing up.
          Even tho Goku seen Beerus use UI he still needed to understand the principle of it. Roshi made him remember the fundamentals behind UI via his training. It was not pointless.

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          Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

          Post by Simere » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:55 pm

          Miracles wrote:
          Pannaliciour wrote:And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?
          Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
          Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
          Could you explain why you still think Goku was talking about UI in 35? My takeaway from this chapter was that he only ever intended to simply boost his power, not that he was under the impression that boosting his power would lead to UI.

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          Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

          Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:13 pm

          Simere wrote:
          Miracles wrote:
          Pannaliciour wrote:And why was Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, when full power (kind of kaio ken) ssj blue Goku didn't hurt him?
          Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
          Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
          Could you explain why you still think Goku was talking about UI in 35? My takeaway from this chapter was that he only ever intended to simply boost his power, not that he was under the impression that boosting his power would lead to UI.
          Hit ask's Goku the meaning of overcoming the wall. Goku agrees that it's a transformation stronger than Blue.

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          Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

          Post by TKA » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:22 pm

          reecehoward wrote: No one has to compare the manga to the anime to think that something is off about Gohan stepping to Kefla. The fact that just a couple of chapters ago she was rag-dolling Golden Frieza and he himself implies he'd have to take her seriously or something to that effect
          '
          Yes. She was "ragdolling" him because he was suppressing his power enough to not kill them and was beating them around pretty easily. Then, out of nowhere, Kale becomes super strong and takes him with his guard down. Goku then came in and had no trouble dealing with her. Kale only managed to get a single punch through Goku's defenses (but it didn't actually hit because Frieza knocked Goku out of the way). Then in the next chapter, Kale, at full power, rammed into Vegeta and it did no damage to him and only knocked him away in the first place because she caught him offguard.

          None of the top-tier fighters in the tournament were shaken by Kale. Vegeta even instantly sees the weakness in her form.

          THEN it was stated pretty damn clearly that her power level was sinking like a stone the longer she kept fighting. You're ignoring a lot of context to make your statements.
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          Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

          Post by Simere » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:35 pm

          Miracles wrote:
          Simere wrote:
          Miracles wrote: Sigh, we would have less confrontations if people would actually be careful to read the story. In chapter 35 Goku admitted UI was a wall,like a transformation that would make him gain more power beyond MSSB.
          Roshi was simply telling Goku this chapter it's not all about raw power. Mastering oneself, the spiritual aspect is also necessary. Same thing Whis was preaching.
          Could you explain why you still think Goku was talking about UI in 35? My takeaway from this chapter was that he only ever intended to simply boost his power, not that he was under the impression that boosting his power would lead to UI.
          Hit ask's Goku the meaning of overcoming the wall. Goku agrees that it's a transformation stronger than Blue.
          Being stronger than SSB doesn't have to mean UI, though. The wall is something he felt inside himself. He knew he was on the verge of something. He didn't know how to get through "the wall" to reach it, but he knew it was there, and he knew he could get through it. I thought he knew what was on the other side—Migatte no Goku'i—the whole time, but this chapter seems to make clear he didn't. He apparently thought it was just a deeper well of power, like SSB2.

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          Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

          Post by reecehoward » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:44 pm

          Miracles wrote:
          reecehoward wrote:
          Miracles wrote: Super Saiyan was triggered by rage. Ultra Instinct is set off by separating thought and movement. These invisible principles attaining new forms works for DB.

          Popo: "Be as tranquil as the heavens and quick as a bolt from the blue."
          The technique Roshi used did in fact increase his speed/movement, etc.
          The moves were so strong Goku even wondered how Roshi could move like that.
          So whatever speed/reaction Roshi did at that moment was indeed at a high level.

          As for Jiren blocking Roshi's attack, he was wide open after Roshi danced on him and possibly Roshi was going for a vital point. So it's natural to block and protect a weak spot.


          Cause Roshi was too busy teaching Krillin about having confidence in seeing his opponent after viewing some incredible ones before. I admit, I thought it wasn't a good idea to have Roshi demonstrate the dance moves against Jiren. Should of done it against a pride trooper. Just like I thought it was a bad idea for Gohan matching a potara without any explanation. It reminds me of Tienshinhan being able to subdue big lip Cell with Kikoho. DB has these kinds of moments. However, Roshi's innate skill allowed him to move well with heavy hitters. So much so, Goku was impressed and Beerus even thought it was UI he was using out there. The point...Whatever Roshi did put his movement ability at a high level.
          This i can agree with on some level. Unfortunately, another problem with Roshi doing this and matching up to Jiren is that in the hands of Goku, nobody om his level will be able to fight him unless they have ultra instinct themselves AND are as strong as he. Let's be honest, if there turns out to be a host of fighters with this skill it will end up becoming another "bargain sale".
          Yeah, but we know Ultra Instinct is Goku exclusive. Since Beerus himself stated Goku got it before he did this chapter. The point of Roshi's similar skill was to hype UI up to astronomic levels.
          Xeztin wrote:
          Miracles wrote:
          Super Saiyan was triggered by rage. Ultra Instinct is set off by separating thought and movement. These invisible principles attaining new forms works for DB.


          I wonder if Broly's transformation is triggered by some sort of ultimate level of pain/agony.
          Well we know particular emotions have something to do with Kale's berserker form, maybe Broly as well.
          Which means that any foe in the future should never be able to challenge him in any way. If a bootleg version of UI gained Roshi the ability to dodge Jiren in any capacity, even if holding back, It will make it to where the only people who could challenge Goku are those with UI or those whose who's power and speed are VASTLY superior to his own, bring us back to the same problem a lot the guys here are pretending this solves: The end of over reliance on powerups and too many transformations(in the case of UI, it could very well become a bargain sale).

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