"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:53 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote:This i can agree with on some level. Unfortunately, another problem with Roshi doing this and matching up to Jiren is that in the hands of Goku, nobody om his level will be able to fight him unless they have ultra instinct themselves AND are as strong as he. Let's be honest, if there turns out to be a host of fighters with this skill it will end up becoming another "bargain sale".
Yeah, but we know Ultra Instinct is Goku exclusive. Since Beerus himself stated Goku got it before he did this chapter. The point of Roshi's similar skill was to hype UI up to astronomic levels.
Xeztin wrote: Super Saiyan was triggered by rage. Ultra Instinct is set off by separating thought and movement. These invisible principles attaining new forms works for DB.


I wonder if Broly's transformation is triggered by some sort of ultimate level of pain/agony.
Well we know particular emotions have something to do with Kale's berserker form, maybe Broly as well.
Which means that any foe in the future should never be able to challenge him in any way. If a bootleg version of UI gained Roshi the ability to dodge Jiren in any capacity, even if holding back, It will make it to where the only people who could challenge Goku are those with UI or those whose who's power and speed are VASTLY superior to his own, bring us back to the same problem a lot the guys here are pretending this solves: The end of over reliance on powerups and too many transformations(in the case of UI, it could very well become a bargain sale).
If jiren, who is only at the level of MUI goku can actually hit him, there is no need for opponents to have UI to beat the ever loving crap out of MUI goku. People who use the no limits fallacy usually get disapointed when they see an "almighty" technique or hax get outright outdone by something not as impressive.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:47 pm

Simere wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Simere wrote: Could you explain why you still think Goku was talking about UI in 35? My takeaway from this chapter was that he only ever intended to simply boost his power, not that he was under the impression that boosting his power would lead to UI.
Hit ask's Goku the meaning of overcoming the wall. Goku agrees that it's a transformation stronger than Blue.
Being stronger than SSB doesn't have to mean UI, though. The wall is something he felt inside himself. He knew he was on the verge of something. He didn't know how to get through "the wall" to reach it, but he knew it was there, and he knew he could get through it. I thought he knew what was on the other side—Migatte no Goku'i—the whole time, but this chapter seems to make clear he didn't. He apparently thought it was just a deeper well of power, like SSB2.
Except Jiren confirms that Goku overcame his wall when he reached UI. Goku wanted to grasp UI but he just didn't know how until his teacher reminded him! We had build up to UI being the next level since Goku monitoring Beerus displaying UI, Vegeta being schooled by Whis on learning UI; In that very lesson, Whis told Vegeta to stop "wasting movement." The exact same lesson Roshi reminded Goku of in which Popo told him about? Even in chapter 27 Goku asked Whis to teach him ahead of Vegeta in a more "advanced lesson" concerning "that thing." Which implies UI but Whis told him only way to get that was "back to the basics"! The same things Roshi was talking about!! Goku was talking random when surpassing Blue.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:54 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote:This i can agree with on some level. Unfortunately, another problem with Roshi doing this and matching up to Jiren is that in the hands of Goku, nobody om his level will be able to fight him unless they have ultra instinct themselves AND are as strong as he. Let's be honest, if there turns out to be a host of fighters with this skill it will end up becoming another "bargain sale".
Yeah, but we know Ultra Instinct is Goku exclusive. Since Beerus himself stated Goku got it before he did this chapter. The point of Roshi's similar skill was to hype UI up to astronomic levels.
Xeztin wrote: Super Saiyan was triggered by rage. Ultra Instinct is set off by separating thought and movement. These invisible principles attaining new forms works for DB.


I wonder if Broly's transformation is triggered by some sort of ultimate level of pain/agony.
Well we know particular emotions have something to do with Kale's berserker form, maybe Broly as well.
Which means that any foe in the future should never be able to challenge him in any way. If a bootleg version of UI gained Roshi the ability to dodge Jiren in any capacity, even if holding back, It will make it to where the only people who could challenge Goku are those with UI or those whose who's power and speed are VASTLY superior to his own, bring us back to the same problem a lot the guys here are pretending this solves: The end of over reliance on powerups and too many transformations(in the case of UI, it could very well become a bargain sale).
But UI is a power increase as well. Toriyama himself even notes if all the saiyans had Super Saiyan god, battle power would still vary. Everybody attaining UI does not mean they would be able to fight a serious Jiren equally. It's still about battle power at the end of the day.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:04 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote: Yeah, but we know Ultra Instinct is Goku exclusive. Since Beerus himself stated Goku got it before he did this chapter. The point of Roshi's similar skill was to hype UI up to astronomic levels.

Well we know particular emotions have something to do with Kale's berserker form, maybe Broly as well.
Which means that any foe in the future should never be able to challenge him in any way. If a bootleg version of UI gained Roshi the ability to dodge Jiren in any capacity, even if holding back, It will make it to where the only people who could challenge Goku are those with UI or those whose who's power and speed are VASTLY superior to his own, bring us back to the same problem a lot the guys here are pretending this solves: The end of over reliance on powerups and too many transformations(in the case of UI, it could very well become a bargain sale).
If jiren, who is only at the level of MUI goku can actually hit him, there is no need for opponents to have UI to beat the ever loving crap out of MUI goku. People who use the no limits fallacy usually get disapointed when they see an "almighty" technique or hax get outright outdone by something not as impressive.
I definitely agree. I already know how this is going to play out. I'm just trying to get the people who are justifying this Roshi thing with "technique over power" mantra, that this moment will be utterly undone by the next villain, if not by Jiren himself. I mean, it's possible that MUI Goku will shit on Jiren, Toyo tends to make antagonists very underwhelming imo. However, I don't see that happening with Broly in either movie ir manga. Broly's definitely going to hit UI Goku if they end up fighting, completely undoing this whole "technique over power", "more experienced" thing.

You need technique AND power. Dragonball for the most part was about having all of that. But technique over an overwhelming power should never be a thing. It's not a thing in real combat sports, it shouldn't be a thing here. If a kid with all the martial arts ability in the world were to come up against an average adult street fighter, that kid would be in a world of hurt. The adult is STILL physically superior and wouldn't require anything but brute strength to subdue a kid. Everytime the technique arguement is brought up, I chuckle with this thought in mind.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:25 pm

Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote: Yeah, but we know Ultra Instinct is Goku exclusive. Since Beerus himself stated Goku got it before he did this chapter. The point of Roshi's similar skill was to hype UI up to astronomic levels.

Well we know particular emotions have something to do with Kale's berserker form, maybe Broly as well.
Which means that any foe in the future should never be able to challenge him in any way. If a bootleg version of UI gained Roshi the ability to dodge Jiren in any capacity, even if holding back, It will make it to where the only people who could challenge Goku are those with UI or those whose who's power and speed are VASTLY superior to his own, bring us back to the same problem a lot the guys here are pretending this solves: The end of over reliance on powerups and too many transformations(in the case of UI, it could very well become a bargain sale).
But UI is a power increase as well. Toriyama himself even notes if all the saiyans had Super Saiyan god, battle power would still vary. Everybody attaining UI does not mean they would be able to fight a serious Jiren equally. It's still about battle power at the end of the day.
I know. At least with this you acknowledge that a power up is still needed for Goku to beat Jiren.

Ok, I'm going to try to articulate my issue with this a little bit more in depth. Jiren, so far in the manga, has not shown anything but the most basic of fighting ability. Goku, overall, STILL has better fighting technique than Jiren as far as displayed. The only thing he lacks in this version of the story IS the power to hurt him. If he was to get a traditional power up to his level, he'd be more than capable of beating him. This chapter insinuates that Goku needs UI to beat Jiren, but nothing Jiren has done thus far in this version that warrants auto-dodging to be the key to beating him. Goku has been able to land hits on him in Blue. So Roshi berating Goku really means nothing here in the context of the few scuffles Goku and Jiren have had. Goku needs power more than anything so far as been shown of Jiren.

Roshi dodging Jiren is bad on its own, but the fact that Jiren was able to just blitz right past him when he had enough and one shit him further solidifys it. Yes, it's cool to have UI for when Goku has his final showdown with Jiren here, but if Jiren is a shitty fighter in this version, which seems to be likely by Roshi even styling and finessing on a heavily suppressed Jiren, and UI gives Goku the physical power he needs to damage Jiren, then he will make quick work of him once he gets the full thing...which will be totally underwhelming whether it makes sense in context or not. So in any capacity, Toyo made Goku seem like a novice AND sets us up for Jiren getting punked by UI if Goku is able to use what Roshi did to Jiren's actual level of power and speed.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:26 pm

Miracles wrote:
Simere wrote:
Miracles wrote: Hit ask's Goku the meaning of overcoming the wall. Goku agrees that it's a transformation stronger than Blue.
Being stronger than SSB doesn't have to mean UI, though. The wall is something he felt inside himself. He knew he was on the verge of something. He didn't know how to get through "the wall" to reach it, but he knew it was there, and he knew he could get through it. I thought he knew what was on the other side—Migatte no Goku'i—the whole time, but this chapter seems to make clear he didn't. He apparently thought it was just a deeper well of power, like SSB2.
Except Jiren confirms that Goku overcame his wall when he reached UI.
Goku confirmed that beyond the wall was UI before he reached UI. That doesn't mean his goal was UI the entire time. Yeah, the manga's been building up to UI as the next level, but that still doesn't mean Goku knew it.

"What I need now is pure power!!"

"Even my SSB form can't keep up with him, so...I guess I need some kinda greater power?"

It's not until he's asked to think of something besides power that he remembers UI. Now, you seem to think that he thought power and UI were the same thing, but I don't see why.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:04 pm

Simere wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Simere wrote: Being stronger than SSB doesn't have to mean UI, though. The wall is something he felt inside himself. He knew he was on the verge of something. He didn't know how to get through "the wall" to reach it, but he knew it was there, and he knew he could get through it. I thought he knew what was on the other side—Migatte no Goku'i—the whole time, but this chapter seems to make clear he didn't. He apparently thought it was just a deeper well of power, like SSB2.
Except Jiren confirms that Goku overcame his wall when he reached UI.
Goku confirmed that beyond the wall was UI before he reached UI. That doesn't mean his goal was UI the entire time. Yeah, the manga's been building up to UI as the next level, but that still doesn't mean Goku knew it.

"What I need now is pure power!!"

"Even my SSB form can't keep up with him, so...I guess I need some kinda greater power?"

It's not until he's asked to think of something besides power that he remembers UI. Now, you seem to think that he thought power and UI were the same thing, but I don't see why.
U forgot the conclusion, that Goku himself confirmed UI was the wall he wanted to overcome to Jiren when he attained it. You assuming it is something else is simply out of context.
The whole point was Goku tried to access UI by power increase but it was through spiritual means, like Whis and the rest taught him on how to achieve it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:13 pm

Miracles wrote:
Simere wrote:
Miracles wrote: Except Jiren confirms that Goku overcame his wall when he reached UI.
Goku confirmed that beyond the wall was UI before he reached UI. That doesn't mean his goal was UI the entire time. Yeah, the manga's been building up to UI as the next level, but that still doesn't mean Goku knew it.

"What I need now is pure power!!"

"Even my SSB form can't keep up with him, so...I guess I need some kinda greater power?"

It's not until he's asked to think of something besides power that he remembers UI. Now, you seem to think that he thought power and UI were the same thing, but I don't see why.
U forgot the conclusion, that Goku himself confirmed This was the wall he needed to overcome to Jiren.
The whole point was Goku tried to access UI by power increase but it was through spiritual means, like Whis and the rest taught him on how to achieve it.
I'm not forgetting. That was my first sentence. I'm saying what was behind the wall was UI, but he didn't know that when he said it in 35. He didn't know it until the middle of 39.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

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Another round of account strikes have been issued against accounts from the last dozen or so pages of interactions, on both sides of the various arguments.

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Start taking a moment to reply to reread your posts before you press submit, and think about how you phrased things if you don't want future infractions.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:21 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote: Which means that any foe in the future should never be able to challenge him in any way. If a bootleg version of UI gained Roshi the ability to dodge Jiren in any capacity, even if holding back, It will make it to where the only people who could challenge Goku are those with UI or those whose who's power and speed are VASTLY superior to his own, bring us back to the same problem a lot the guys here are pretending this solves: The end of over reliance on powerups and too many transformations(in the case of UI, it could very well become a bargain sale).
But UI is a power increase as well. Toriyama himself even notes if all the saiyans had Super Saiyan god, battle power would still vary. Everybody attaining UI does not mean they would be able to fight a serious Jiren equally. It's still about battle power at the end of the day.
I know. At least with this you acknowledge that a power up is still needed for Goku to beat Jiren.

Ok, I'm going to try to articulate my issue with this a little bit more in depth. Jiren, so far in the manga, has not shown anything but the most basic of fighting ability. Goku, overall, STILL has better fighting technique than Jiren as far as displayed. The only thing he lacks in this version of the story IS the power to hurt him. If he was to get a traditional power up to his level, he'd be more than capable of beating him. This chapter insinuates that Goku needs UI to beat Jiren, but nothing Jiren has done thus far in this version that warrants auto-dodging to be the key to beating him. Goku has been able to land hits on him in Blue. So Roshi berating Goku really means nothing here in the context of the few scuffles Goku and Jiren have had. Goku needs power more than anything so far as been shown of Jiren.

Roshi dodging Jiren is bad on its own, but the fact that Jiren was able to just blitz right past him when he had enough and one shit him further solidifys it. Yes, it's cool to have UI for when Goku has his final showdown with Jiren here, but if Jiren is a shitty fighter in this version, which seems to be likely by Roshi even styling and finessing on a heavily suppressed Jiren, and UI gives Goku the physical power he needs to damage Jiren, then he will make quick work of him once he gets the full thing...which will be totally underwhelming whether it makes sense in context or not. So in any capacity, Toyo made Goku seem like a novice AND sets us up for Jiren getting punked by UI if Goku is able to use what Roshi did to Jiren's actual level of power and speed.
Goku didn't look like a novice, he just needed to be reminded of his teachings. Goku definitely couldn't outmaneuver Jiren whenever he attacked, so he needed a lesson from Roshi on not wasting movement [the same thing whis stated]. You thinking UI will make quick work of Jiren since Jiren has yet to even power up AT ALL in the manga is also a bad idea. Nothing has changed it's still a battle power game.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:32 pm

Simere wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Simere wrote: Goku confirmed that beyond the wall was UI before he reached UI. That doesn't mean his goal was UI the entire time. Yeah, the manga's been building up to UI as the next level, but that still doesn't mean Goku knew it.

"What I need now is pure power!!"

"Even my SSB form can't keep up with him, so...I guess I need some kinda greater power?"

It's not until he's asked to think of something besides power that he remembers UI. Now, you seem to think that he thought power and UI were the same thing, but I don't see why.
U forgot the conclusion, that Goku himself confirmed This was the wall he needed to overcome to Jiren.
The whole point was Goku tried to access UI by power increase but it was through spiritual means, like Whis and the rest taught him on how to achieve it.
I'm not forgetting. That was my first sentence. I'm saying what was behind the wall was UI, but he didn't know that when he said it in 35. He didn't know it until the middle of 39.
No, Goku even told Hit that overcoming the wall was the only way that Jiren could be defeated back in chapter 35. He isn't just talking a random wall but something specific. Then in this current chapter, you have Whis even commenting on Goku's random power efforts trying to overcome his wall as not what was needed to do so. A precursor to what Roshi would state later. Then mentions the wall may be too high for Goku at this point. So are you going to say even Whis is confirming Goku's "wall" is a random power up too? Then you have Jiren confirming UI is that wall [referenced back in ch. 35] Goku needed to overcome and that nothing is left on the table for him and Goku said "right." Saying Goku didn't know what he was aiming for back then when the theme of his wall is continued till this chapter ending with UI.
Last edited by Miracles on Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:18 pm

Miracles wrote:
Simere wrote:
Miracles wrote: U forgot the conclusion, that Goku himself confirmed This was the wall he needed to overcome to Jiren.
The whole point was Goku tried to access UI by power increase but it was through spiritual means, like Whis and the rest taught him on how to achieve it.
I'm not forgetting. That was my first sentence. I'm saying what was behind the wall was UI, but he didn't know that when he said it in 35. He didn't know it until the middle of 39.
No, Goku even told Hit that overcoming the wall was the only way that Jiren could be defeated back in chapter 35. He isn't just talking a random wall but something specific.
Then in this current chapter you have Whis even commenting on Goku's random power efforts trying to overcome his wall is not what was needed to do so.Then comments and states the wall may be too high for Goku at this point. So are you going to say even Whis is confirming Goku's "wall" is a random power up too? Then you have Jiren confirming this is the wall Goku needed and that nothing is left on the table for him and Goku said right. I'm sorry but you are reaching here saying Goku didn't know what he was aiming for back then when the theme of his wall is continued till this chapter ending with UI.
What about that line to Jiren says he was talking about something specific? The implication we all took at the time was that he was talking about UI, but this chapter shows our assumption was wrong.

I think between our two positions yours is the one that requires more reading into. The plaintext says Goku thought he merely needed to power up, and my takeaway is that Goku was merely trying to power up. You're adding on to that that he thought power was the same thing as UI, or the method by which to reach it.

And I wouldn't say that about Whis "confirming" because I'm not arguing that the wall was ever a random powerup, nor does it matter what Whis knows or not. It doesn't matter what Jiren "confirms", either, or what Goku said after the fact. Again, "the wall" is not one thing. There was a point where Super Saiyan was the wall. Where Super Saiyan 2 was. The only thing Goku knew was that it existed; he didn't know what it was or how to get there. The method he tried, power, was not the right answer. When clued in to the right answer he immediately gets there. There? Ultra Instinct.

The theme was Goku trying to get through the wall, not get to Ultra Instinct. There's a difference. We know what he was striving for was UI, but he didn't.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:24 pm

Simere wrote:
Miracles wrote:
Simere wrote: I'm not forgetting. That was my first sentence. I'm saying what was behind the wall was UI, but he didn't know that when he said it in 35. He didn't know it until the middle of 39.
No, Goku even told Hit that overcoming the wall was the only way that Jiren could be defeated back in chapter 35. He isn't just talking a random wall but something specific.
Then in this current chapter you have Whis even commenting on Goku's random power efforts trying to overcome his wall is not what was needed to do so.Then comments and states the wall may be too high for Goku at this point. So are you going to say even Whis is confirming Goku's "wall" is a random power up too? Then you have Jiren confirming this is the wall Goku needed and that nothing is left on the table for him and Goku said right. I'm sorry but you are reaching here saying Goku didn't know what he was aiming for back then when the theme of his wall is continued till this chapter ending with UI.
What about that line to Jiren says he was talking about something specific? The implication we all took at the time was that he was talking about UI, but this chapter shows our assumption was wrong.

I think between our two positions yours is the one that requires more reading into. The plaintext says Goku thought he merely needed to power up, and my takeaway is that Goku was merely trying to power up. You're adding on to that that he thought power was the same thing as UI, or the method by which to reach it.

And I wouldn't say that about Whis "confirming" because I'm not arguing that the wall was ever a random powerup, nor does it matter what Whis knows or not. It doesn't matter what Jiren "confirms", either, or what Goku said after the fact. Again, "the wall" is not one thing. There was a point where Super Saiyan was the wall. Where Super Saiyan 2 was. The only thing Goku knew was that it existed; he didn't know what it was or how to get there. The method he tried, power, was not the right answer. When clued in to the right answer he immediately gets there. There? Ultra Instinct.

The theme was Goku trying to get through the wall, not get to Ultra Instinct. There's a difference. We know what he was striving for was UI, but he didn't.
If Goku didn't know what the wall was why did he say it's the only option for everyone to defeat Jiren? He knew what the wall was, he just didn't know how to overcome. This is where Roshi comes in to show him the way.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:30 pm

Miracles wrote:If Goku didn't know what the wall was why did he say it's the only option for everyone to defeat Jiren? He knew what the wall was, he just didn't know how to attain it. This is where Roshi comes in to show him the way.
Because he just got beaten easily and knows he's not strong enough, and he thinks teaming up wouldn't do the trick either, but he feels he can get stronger; if he can get stronger then maybe he would be strong enough to beat Jiren. Thus it's the only option.

Where Roshi comes in is to remind him of the fact that there's other avenues to strength besides power.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:06 pm

Simere wrote:
Miracles wrote:If Goku didn't know what the wall was why did he say it's the only option for everyone to defeat Jiren? He knew what the wall was, he just didn't know how to attain it. This is where Roshi comes in to show him the way.
Because he just got beaten easily and knows he's not strong enough, and he thinks teaming up wouldn't do the trick either, but he feels he can get stronger; if he can get stronger then maybe he would be strong enough to beat Jiren. Thus it's the only option.

Where Roshi comes in is to remind him of the fact that there's other avenues to strength besides power.
If UI wasn't something Goku was thinking about since chapter 35, why say yes to Jiren's question about finally overcoming his wall he was preaching about whenneedlessly powering up against Jiren to attain it?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:30 pm

Miracles wrote:You still lack context and keep assuming. If UI wasn't something Goku was thinking about since chapter 35, why confirm to Jiren this was the wall he was preaching about when needlessly powering up to attain it?
Well, first of all, he said "probably". What am I assuming? He would say that because it's true. That doesn't change in what I'm saying. Imagine like a...math problem. I know the problem has an answer, but nothing I'm trying is getting me any closer to it. Suddenly I realize this solution I've been ignoring will work, and the problem is solved. The problem—the wall—was always the same. My lack of knowledge of the answer was always the same. The only thing that changed was how I tried to solve it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:00 pm

Simere wrote:
Miracles wrote:You still lack context and keep assuming. If UI wasn't something Goku was thinking about since chapter 35, why confirm to Jiren this was the wall he was preaching about when needlessly powering up to attain it?
Well, first of all, he said "probably". What am I assuming? He would say that because it's true. That doesn't change in what I'm saying. Imagine like a...math problem. I know the problem has an answer, but nothing I'm trying is getting me any closer to it. Suddenly I realize this solution I've been ignoring will work, and the problem is solved. The problem—the wall—was always the same. My lack of knowledge of the answer was always the same. The only thing that changed was how I tried to solve it.
Your math problem comparison doesn't work cause Goku already knew the answer [UI] to his problem but didn't know how to achieve it. This was proved when Goku concluded with "right" after Jiren stated that there is "nothing left on the table for him." Meaning, both Goku and Jiren conclude in that state [UI] the wall is overcome.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:07 pm

Miracles wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Miracles wrote: But UI is a power increase as well. Toriyama himself even notes if all the saiyans had Super Saiyan god, battle power would still vary. Everybody attaining UI does not mean they would be able to fight a serious Jiren equally. It's still about battle power at the end of the day.
I know. At least with this you acknowledge that a power up is still needed for Goku to beat Jiren.

Ok, I'm going to try to articulate my issue with this a little bit more in depth. Jiren, so far in the manga, has not shown anything but the most basic of fighting ability. Goku, overall, STILL has better fighting technique than Jiren as far as displayed. The only thing he lacks in this version of the story IS the power to hurt him. If he was to get a traditional power up to his level, he'd be more than capable of beating him. This chapter insinuates that Goku needs UI to beat Jiren, but nothing Jiren has done thus far in this version that warrants auto-dodging to be the key to beating him. Goku has been able to land hits on him in Blue. So Roshi berating Goku really means nothing here in the context of the few scuffles Goku and Jiren have had. Goku needs power more than anything so far as been shown of Jiren.

Roshi dodging Jiren is bad on its own, but the fact that Jiren was able to just blitz right past him when he had enough and one shit him further solidifys it. Yes, it's cool to have UI for when Goku has his final showdown with Jiren here, but if Jiren is a shitty fighter in this version, which seems to be likely by Roshi even styling and finessing on a heavily suppressed Jiren, and UI gives Goku the physical power he needs to damage Jiren, then he will make quick work of him once he gets the full thing...which will be totally underwhelming whether it makes sense in context or not. So in any capacity, Toyo made Goku seem like a novice AND sets us up for Jiren getting punked by UI if Goku is able to use what Roshi did to Jiren's actual level of power and speed.
Goku didn't look like a novice, he just needed to be reminded of his teachings. Goku definitely couldn't outmaneuver Jiren whenever he attacked, so he needed a lesson from Roshi on not wasting movement [the same thing whis stated]. You thinking UI will make quick work of Jiren since Jiren has yet to even power up AT ALL in the manga is also a bad idea. Nothing has changed it's still a battle power game.
What I am saying is this, yes UI will help, but it isn't necessary in this situation if he can just get to his level of power and speed. As I stated already, if he can regress himself to the level where Roshi can finesse him with a bootleg UI, that's indicative of the fact that Jiren himself may not be a talented martial artist in that capacity. Goku wasting movement isn't even a problem if Jiren is just plain old stronger and faster. He's just throwing out single punches and nailing Goku, something that he'd be able to dodge with a regular old speed boost. I hate to have to bring the anime in this, but there, it was pretty evident that he'd need something more to get around those glare punches he was doing.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:26 pm

Miracles wrote:Your math problem comparison doesn't work cause Goku already knew the answer [UI] to his problem but didn't know how to achieve it. This was proved when Goku concluded with "right" after Jiren stated that there is "nothing left on the table for him." Meaning, both Goku and Jiren conclude in that state [UI] the wall is overcome.
How is that proof? "Confirming" it after the fact doesn't speak at all to his prior knowledge of what it was he was seeking. Of course you're going to know what the mystery flavor is after you've tasted it. Of course you're going to know what's behind door number one after you've opened it. Of course you're going to know what your gift is after you've unwrapped it.

"He knew the answer was 42 all along. How do I know he knew? Because he said after he solved it was 42."

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeztin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:01 pm

I think at the end of the day if every character in DB had MUI the one with the strongest base would win. It doesn’t matter how much you can dodge if you can’t deal a damaging blow. I think a revalation in DB would be to stop relying on power ups and transformations and more on making their normal state stronger. If transformations are some multiplier or additive to the base than obviously the base is the most important state of all. Jiren didn’t need or really rely on transformations. Broly is probably going to be a prime example of that, if he’s stomping SSJ Vegeta/Goku in his normal state. Though base states don’t sell transformations do so we’ll probably never see that.

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