You mean a character consistently stated and shown to have unnatural genius talent as a fighter? The same one that learns or master techniques that take others years to do by comparison by seeing said move done only once? Are we even discussing the same show at this poiny anymore?shadowfox87 wrote:You expect a fighter to master something in three days which took Roshi in three years?
So which is it, did Goku master none wasted movements or not, since according to Mr. Popo he did not and according to the latest DBS chapter Goku never listens or learns a damn thing from his masters so Goku literally beat the crap out of Tao Pai Pai from being simply faster and stronger and nothing else, something I've been stating repeatedly which you have zero counter or answer for I might add.shadowfox87 wrote:Umm ok. You realize that Korin was only just the preliminary step. Each new master adds another layer of training to Goku's arsenal. Mr. Popo's training of being "quiet as the sky" and "quicker than lightning" was part of this.
I'm saying Toriyama is incompetent because he constantly has Goku regressed to a previous state he's already shown and stated to mastered, hell, he takes it a step further and improves on said teachings. Toriyama is creatively bankrupt since he has no logical means of showing progression for Goku since he peaked entirely with Mr. Popo and Kami's training so he must retcon new flaws that Goku never had to give some vain and empty attempt the character is moving forward when all he does is take one step forward and two steps backwards. If an author has to do that constantly then yes, I fully believe they are inept in creating a solid, consistent, and coherent narrative for the world they are building.shadowfox87 wrote:I don't really understand why you think Toriyama is incompetent if Goku has to continually learn from his masters.
You got it all wrong my friend, I want a story that is internally consistent with created lore, rules, and mechanics it establushed for it's world, not incoherent jibberish that doesn't mesh with the rest of the series because the author(s) creatively hit a block in writing.shadowfox87 wrote:That's part of the story. Would you rather have a story where the main character knows everything and just beats all his enemies effortlessly?
But Goku did not anticipate anything about Tao, he simply overwhelmed him with greater strength and speed, that's it. This isn't an opinion, this is flat out visually shown and said in the actual narrative with Tao and Upa commenting Goku's current level is far different than it was when he (Tao) easily thrashed him earlier.shadowfox87 wrote:Speed and power mean nothing if you don't control it. Just speed by itself doesn't give the ability to land a punch. What Goku learned from Korin is to anticipate.
Again, it feels like you are discussing some completely different version of DB that does not exist for everyone else.
Retroactive power levels from a secondary source such as the Daizenshiu does not trump the mian source material. Tenshinhan outright stated Goku was superior to his own level in every sense of the world, not equals. Tenshinhan couldn't handle Goku's power level so he had to settle for ring out instead.shadowfox87 wrote:Umm no? The official power levels of DB are out even today. Tenshinhan and Goku had a power level of 180 during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.
By technique you mean punching the crap out of each other, sure, what really happened was that Goku doinh chip damage and wearing Piccolo down through sheer attrition, attrition that makes no sense once I think about it since he concentrated all his remaining power and punched a giant gaping hole through Piccolo that he cod no block int he slightesr bite, ergo Goku was significantly stronger than Demon Piccolo during that exchange.shadowfox87 wrote:The only way to overcome each other hence was through technique. Goku and King Piccolo both had a power level of 260.
Speaking of power levels the 260 one makes no sense since old Piccolo easily demolished Goku who is said to be 180 with less than half his battle power. That would make the younger and more powerful Demon Piccolo much higher than 360 in BP, that's above weighted clothing Goku and Piccolo at the beginning of Z even though weighted clothing Goku during the 23rd Budokai was stated stronger than he was when he killed young Demon Piccolo years ago.
Only if you ignore pre-Roshi training Goku to 21st Budokai Roshi, Tao Pai Pai, 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan, Drum, Demon King Piccolo, Mr. Popo, Kami, 23rd Budokai Piccolo, Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, Dodoria/Zarbon, Ginyu Force, and Captin Ginyu, sure, Goku never once encountered an opponent with a huge power gap between them.shadowfox87 wrote:Goku didn't meet opponents with a huge power gap until DBZ where he met Freeza.
Original DB =/= rose tinted glasses/revisionist history.shadowfox87 wrote:If you prefer a show where fighters just scream, get more powerful, and transform like most of DBZ, then be my guest. The original DB was not like this.
Lets raise the stakes and put some money on this, do you have something like paypal? I bet $50.00 of what I said happens over what you said will happen.shadowfox87 wrote:Then let us wait and watch.
Thing is, such a thing is worthless if you don't have the power and speed to back it up with, otherwise you get wasted like Roshi did.shadowfox87 wrote:My theory is that UI is not a boost in speed or power. It's a state of mind where one can subconsciously move the body to dodge any attack - mastery of self-movement, exactly as Whis said.
You mean what he has been doing through out the entire series from day 1? You do know that Goku ran into this very dilemma durinh the Android saga when Vegeta and company got their asses badly handed to them by 17 and 18. He chased after something beyond SSJ and he did this by training. Vegeta and Trunks discovered SSG2 amd SSG3 against Semi-Perfect Cell, Goku discovered FPSS and taught that to Gohan, all four of the saiyan characters came out leaps and bounds beyond what they were before entering the time chamber.shadowfox87 wrote:Of course, they will continue to train to get stronger. Nobody said that was going to change. However, when breaking a "wall", it's not through more training. One has to realize what is lacking in their ability and overcome that. Goku has to reach beyond just power and become a true martial artist.
Probably not since Goku peaked at the pinnacle of super-gifted prodigy martial artist since his training with Mr. Popo and Kami, that's why additional ttaining afterwards has always focused on strength gains since there's nothing else to learn since like Yuri Boyka Goku is by fsr the most complete fighter in the world that is until he's constantly regressed by Toriyama that is.shadowfox87 wrote:If Goku will train in the ROSAT with weights, etc., of course he will get stronger, but will he become a better fighter? Will have learned any new techniques? This is again the same analogy between a bodybuilder and a martial artist.
You don't need technique if yoy have overwhelming power has shown by Mr. Popo punking Goku with ease and Kami finger flicking Goku's full force punch like he's a mere bug, and the modt definite being Angry Gohan headbutting Raditz with a BP higher than his own critically injuring him to the point je's subdued by a severely beaten and weakened Goku only to be killed by Piccolo's stronger attack.shadowfox87 wrote:As I said before, both power and technique are important. If your power is not high enough, regardless of the technique, you will not be able to inflict damage.
SSG3 Trunks never beat Perfect Cell, as mentioned above Raditz was defeated by superior firepower, superior power with Akuuman, Kid Buu vs South Kaioshin is non-sensical anime filler, and the rest are from the DBS ToP trying to pretend the rules of DB are somehoe different than before whole contradicting themselves at the same time in the same saga.shadowfox87 wrote:There has been enough examples already stated in this thread of weaker opponents defeating stronger ones from DB to DBZ. Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks vs Perfect Cell, Raditz vs Goku & Piccolo, Gamisaras, Akuuman, Dyspo, Kid Buu vs South Kaioshin, etc.
I actually don't be we are getting it anyway, hell, we already have it now with more to come with Toriyama's "creative" new forms.shadowfox87 wrote:If you want Super Saiyan Power Rangers, then be my guest.
DB is primarily based on Wuxia style stories that features highly exaggerated supernatural martial arts nonsense you see in series like HnK/FotNS or Saint Seiya but to the extreme. Despite that, it doesn't change what I originally said which is...shadowfox87 wrote:I gave you a real life example based on martial arts. Dragon Ball was based on the core principle of adventure, fantasy, martial arts.
Real life =/= greatly exaggerated mystical super powered kung fu.
Correction, the Pilaf Saga is loosely (emphasis on the world loosely) based on JttW, not all of DB though.shadowfox87 wrote:The original story is based on "Journey to the West".
Come on man, what I said was not subjective in the least bit and is simply the none sugar coated truth. What you said about huge power gaps only existing when Freeza came on board and being absent in original DB is intellectually dishonest, false, and ignorant.shadowfox87 wrote:It's not objective. Your perspective and mine are both subjective. It's a fact that in the original Dragon Ball, there was a lot of martial arts, tactics, and technique.
Now you're just putting words I never said in my mouth.shadowfox87 wrote:You can ignore that and just say that DBZ is all about power, screaming, and transformations so to be consistent, DBS should continue down that path.