"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:29 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:You expect a fighter to master something in three days which took Roshi in three years?
You mean a character consistently stated and shown to have unnatural genius talent as a fighter? The same one that learns or master techniques that take others years to do by comparison by seeing said move done only once? Are we even discussing the same show at this poiny anymore?
shadowfox87 wrote:Umm ok. You realize that Korin was only just the preliminary step. Each new master adds another layer of training to Goku's arsenal. Mr. Popo's training of being "quiet as the sky" and "quicker than lightning" was part of this.
So which is it, did Goku master none wasted movements or not, since according to Mr. Popo he did not and according to the latest DBS chapter Goku never listens or learns a damn thing from his masters so Goku literally beat the crap out of Tao Pai Pai from being simply faster and stronger and nothing else, something I've been stating repeatedly which you have zero counter or answer for I might add.
shadowfox87 wrote:I don't really understand why you think Toriyama is incompetent if Goku has to continually learn from his masters.
I'm saying Toriyama is incompetent because he constantly has Goku regressed to a previous state he's already shown and stated to mastered, hell, he takes it a step further and improves on said teachings. Toriyama is creatively bankrupt since he has no logical means of showing progression for Goku since he peaked entirely with Mr. Popo and Kami's training so he must retcon new flaws that Goku never had to give some vain and empty attempt the character is moving forward when all he does is take one step forward and two steps backwards. If an author has to do that constantly then yes, I fully believe they are inept in creating a solid, consistent, and coherent narrative for the world they are building.
shadowfox87 wrote:That's part of the story. Would you rather have a story where the main character knows everything and just beats all his enemies effortlessly?
You got it all wrong my friend, I want a story that is internally consistent with created lore, rules, and mechanics it establushed for it's world, not incoherent jibberish that doesn't mesh with the rest of the series because the author(s) creatively hit a block in writing.
shadowfox87 wrote:Speed and power mean nothing if you don't control it. Just speed by itself doesn't give the ability to land a punch. What Goku learned from Korin is to anticipate.
But Goku did not anticipate anything about Tao, he simply overwhelmed him with greater strength and speed, that's it. This isn't an opinion, this is flat out visually shown and said in the actual narrative with Tao and Upa commenting Goku's current level is far different than it was when he (Tao) easily thrashed him earlier.

Again, it feels like you are discussing some completely different version of DB that does not exist for everyone else.
shadowfox87 wrote:Umm no? The official power levels of DB are out even today. Tenshinhan and Goku had a power level of 180 during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.
Retroactive power levels from a secondary source such as the Daizenshiu does not trump the mian source material. Tenshinhan outright stated Goku was superior to his own level in every sense of the world, not equals. Tenshinhan couldn't handle Goku's power level so he had to settle for ring out instead.
shadowfox87 wrote:The only way to overcome each other hence was through technique. Goku and King Piccolo both had a power level of 260.
By technique you mean punching the crap out of each other, sure, what really happened was that Goku doinh chip damage and wearing Piccolo down through sheer attrition, attrition that makes no sense once I think about it since he concentrated all his remaining power and punched a giant gaping hole through Piccolo that he cod no block int he slightesr bite, ergo Goku was significantly stronger than Demon Piccolo during that exchange.

Speaking of power levels the 260 one makes no sense since old Piccolo easily demolished Goku who is said to be 180 with less than half his battle power. That would make the younger and more powerful Demon Piccolo much higher than 360 in BP, that's above weighted clothing Goku and Piccolo at the beginning of Z even though weighted clothing Goku during the 23rd Budokai was stated stronger than he was when he killed young Demon Piccolo years ago.
shadowfox87 wrote:Goku didn't meet opponents with a huge power gap until DBZ where he met Freeza.
Only if you ignore pre-Roshi training Goku to 21st Budokai Roshi, Tao Pai Pai, 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan, Drum, Demon King Piccolo, Mr. Popo, Kami, 23rd Budokai Piccolo, Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, Dodoria/Zarbon, Ginyu Force, and Captin Ginyu, sure, Goku never once encountered an opponent with a huge power gap between them.
shadowfox87 wrote:If you prefer a show where fighters just scream, get more powerful, and transform like most of DBZ, then be my guest. The original DB was not like this.
Original DB =/= rose tinted glasses/revisionist history.
shadowfox87 wrote:Then let us wait and watch.
Lets raise the stakes and put some money on this, do you have something like paypal? I bet $50.00 of what I said happens over what you said will happen.
shadowfox87 wrote:My theory is that UI is not a boost in speed or power. It's a state of mind where one can subconsciously move the body to dodge any attack - mastery of self-movement, exactly as Whis said.
Thing is, such a thing is worthless if you don't have the power and speed to back it up with, otherwise you get wasted like Roshi did.
shadowfox87 wrote:Of course, they will continue to train to get stronger. Nobody said that was going to change. However, when breaking a "wall", it's not through more training. One has to realize what is lacking in their ability and overcome that. Goku has to reach beyond just power and become a true martial artist.
You mean what he has been doing through out the entire series from day 1? You do know that Goku ran into this very dilemma durinh the Android saga when Vegeta and company got their asses badly handed to them by 17 and 18. He chased after something beyond SSJ and he did this by training. Vegeta and Trunks discovered SSG2 amd SSG3 against Semi-Perfect Cell, Goku discovered FPSS and taught that to Gohan, all four of the saiyan characters came out leaps and bounds beyond what they were before entering the time chamber.
shadowfox87 wrote:If Goku will train in the ROSAT with weights, etc., of course he will get stronger, but will he become a better fighter? Will have learned any new techniques? This is again the same analogy between a bodybuilder and a martial artist.
Probably not since Goku peaked at the pinnacle of super-gifted prodigy martial artist since his training with Mr. Popo and Kami, that's why additional ttaining afterwards has always focused on strength gains since there's nothing else to learn since like Yuri Boyka Goku is by fsr the most complete fighter in the world that is until he's constantly regressed by Toriyama that is.
shadowfox87 wrote:As I said before, both power and technique are important. If your power is not high enough, regardless of the technique, you will not be able to inflict damage.
You don't need technique if yoy have overwhelming power has shown by Mr. Popo punking Goku with ease and Kami finger flicking Goku's full force punch like he's a mere bug, and the modt definite being Angry Gohan headbutting Raditz with a BP higher than his own critically injuring him to the point je's subdued by a severely beaten and weakened Goku only to be killed by Piccolo's stronger attack.
shadowfox87 wrote:There has been enough examples already stated in this thread of weaker opponents defeating stronger ones from DB to DBZ. Super Saiyan Grade 3 Trunks vs Perfect Cell, Raditz vs Goku & Piccolo, Gamisaras, Akuuman, Dyspo, Kid Buu vs South Kaioshin, etc.
SSG3 Trunks never beat Perfect Cell, as mentioned above Raditz was defeated by superior firepower, superior power with Akuuman, Kid Buu vs South Kaioshin is non-sensical anime filler, and the rest are from the DBS ToP trying to pretend the rules of DB are somehoe different than before whole contradicting themselves at the same time in the same saga.
shadowfox87 wrote:If you want Super Saiyan Power Rangers, then be my guest.
I actually don't be we are getting it anyway, hell, we already have it now with more to come with Toriyama's "creative" new forms.

https://i.imgtc.com/WcXBwE3.jpg
shadowfox87 wrote:I gave you a real life example based on martial arts. Dragon Ball was based on the core principle of adventure, fantasy, martial arts.
DB is primarily based on Wuxia style stories that features highly exaggerated supernatural martial arts nonsense you see in series like HnK/FotNS or Saint Seiya but to the extreme. Despite that, it doesn't change what I originally said which is...

Real life =/= greatly exaggerated mystical super powered kung fu.
shadowfox87 wrote:The original story is based on "Journey to the West".
Correction, the Pilaf Saga is loosely (emphasis on the world loosely) based on JttW, not all of DB though.
shadowfox87 wrote:It's not objective. Your perspective and mine are both subjective. It's a fact that in the original Dragon Ball, there was a lot of martial arts, tactics, and technique.
Come on man, what I said was not subjective in the least bit and is simply the none sugar coated truth. What you said about huge power gaps only existing when Freeza came on board and being absent in original DB is intellectually dishonest, false, and ignorant.
shadowfox87 wrote:You can ignore that and just say that DBZ is all about power, screaming, and transformations so to be consistent, DBS should continue down that path.
Now you're just putting words I never said in my mouth.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Spider-Man » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:39 pm

Well I can say anything since most of the user in this thread summed up my thoughts on this: Boring and Ridiculous so I don't want to sound like broken record here.
    However I want to add that Vegeta or Hit could have fulfilled the concept of a prototype UI far better than Roshi IMO.
      So overall this chapter blows because it has nothing interesting going on and I don't really think a good climax would save this arc at this point.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by dragon boss z » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:56 pm

      Spider-Man wrote:So overall this chapter blows because it has nothing interesting going on and I don't really think a good climax would save this arc at this point.
      Eh, I think if it finishes strong the arc will be fine. Looking back at it most the chapters of the ToP arc were good.
      The pre tournament chapters 27-32 were all pretty good. That's 6 chapter right there.
      The start of the tournament was good showing the chaotic nature of a battle royal, and the Frost and Frieza stuff was good. That's another 2.
      Then there was the Hit and Goku vs Jiren fight, I agree this should have been better. It didn't seem that epic and kind of fell flat.
      The chapter after that was mostly the other universes vs universe 7. Not exiting, but serviceable and needed. I would say it was average.
      Then was the Frieza vs saiyans chapter. This was probably the best chapter of the tournament for me so far.
      The next chapter with Kale knockign out all the universe was too much imo.
      Finally the current chapter which had the big problem of barely showing Gohan vs Kefla, which was a real let down, and the Roshi thing was stupid.
      So when you add everything up that's 10 average to good chapters and 3 disappointing chapters, 1 of which was really only disappointing due to the pacing (the one where Kale knocks 3 universes out in seconds).
      I think the biggest problem with the manga version of this arc so far is how disappointing the Jiren fights have been. If they can really make the fight with Jiren epic in the finale I think the arc as a whole will be good, but if the finale is more of just Jiren back handing people in a boring manner, then ya the arc will be kind of bad.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:18 pm

      lord turbo wrote:You mean a character consistently stated and shown to have unnatural genius talent as a fighter? The same one that learns or master techniques that take others years to do by comparison by seeing said move done only once? Are we even discussing the same show at this poiny anymore?
      Again, you're missing the point entirely. The point is that Roshi is over 300 years old and has only been practicing martial arts. The manga went out of its way to remind you all of the direct quotes from Goku's masters about movement. The DB manga has always been about martial arts. Movement is part of this. Regardless of how talented Goku may be in terms of fighting, he is not perfect. He can still learn from his teachers no matter how old he is or how strong he is. What you're saying is what Jiren said EXACTLY to Goku - that he shouldn't be learning anything from his masters at this point. Goku responds saying that he's going to continue to learn forever and he doesn't want to be 'perfect'. Even as old as Roshi is, he still learned something from him, even if it is just reminding Goku of something he learned a long time ago.
      lord turbo wrote:So which is it, did Goku master none wasted movements or not, since according to Mr. Popo he did not and according to the latest DBS chapter Goku never listens or learns a damn thing from his masters so Goku literally beat the crap out of Tao Pai Pai from being simply faster and stronger and nothing else, something I've been stating repeatedly which you have zero counter or answer for I might add.
      lord turbo wrote:But Goku did not anticipate anything about Tao, he simply overwhelmed him with greater strength and speed, that's it. This isn't an opinion, this is flat out visually shown and said in the actual narrative with Tao and Upa commenting Goku's current level is far different than it was when he (Tao) easily thrashed him earlier.

      Again, it feels like you are discussing some completely different version of DB that does not exist for everyone else.
      Since you want me to do your homework for you, I will. I've told you repeatedly that Goku beat Tao Pai Pai not just because of increased strength or speed, but because of movement that he learned from Korin. You wanted proof of this right since you believe all that matters is power? Here you go:
      [spoiler]Image
      Source: Chapter 90[/spoiler]
      The fight initially begins with Goku dodging Tao's punch and then countering. Tao is surprised and says that Goku wasn't doing anything like this 3 days ago.
      [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
      During this fight, Tao is still able to hurt Goku. Goku even says it in the manga and there are many times when Tao lands hits. Goku eventually allows Tao to hurt him so that he can read his movements.
      [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
      Upon doing so, Goku gets back up and says that he has read all of Tao's "movements". Hence, Goku did learn to anticipate Tao's movements. Obviously, we aren't reading / watching the same DB. I'm a martial artist in real life. For me, choreography is very important. It's like chess. The fight I watched of Goku vs Tao for the first time, was one of the best fights I've seen on screen. It wasn't just a wrestling match or some brawl where they are just hitting each other. It was carefully planned attacks.

      Everything he learned all the way up to defeating King Piccolo were nothing compared to Mr. Popo. Did he master all the movements from Korin in 3 days? He was able to catch Korin in 3 days. It doesn't mean he's mastered everything is to know in martial arts with regards to movement. He didn't know how to sense ki at that point. He met Mr. Popo who taught him how to be as 'quick as lightning' while being 'quiet as the sky'. These two are fundamental in Goku's core training.

      If Goku meets a new master that teaches him movement, does that mean that he didn't master or learn the previous stuff? Whis now is telling Goku and Vegeta to master self-movement. Too much time is being wasted in them thinking consciously and telling the body to move. Hence, in order to move quicker, they have to move subconsciously. Mr. Popo, Korin, Roshi, etc. all shared similar principles and implied that in martial arts that all these roads lead to this end - UI.
      lord turbo wrote:I'm saying Toriyama is incompetent because he constantly has Goku regressed to a previous state he's already shown and stated to mastered, hell, he takes it a step further and improves on said teachings. Toriyama is creatively bankrupt since he has no logical means of showing progression for Goku since he peaked entirely with Mr. Popo and Kami's training so he must retcon new flaws that Goku never had to give some vain and empty attempt the character is moving forward when all he does is take one step forward and two steps backwards. If an author has to do that constantly then yes, I fully believe they are inept in creating a solid, consistent, and coherent narrative for the world they are building.
      Then you haven't read enough Chinese novels or watched enough wuxia. In all cases, the main character starts off talentless, learns some moves from their masters, then surpasses those masters and learns new things from new masters. Even if the main character has surpassed his previous masters, he/she is reminded of certain moves and fundamentals later in the story by those very same masters. The lesson in the story is that no matter how high the main character goes, they can always learn something new, even from those he/she has surpassed, whether it is mental or physical. Goku is a character that is flawed. That is the point of the main character. A character has to be flawed in order for that character to improve. Goku never claimed to be 'perfect' and he says he doesn't want to be directly in the manga. In real life, people do regress to a previous state. People forget to train and they lose power. People forget moves they've learned before. It's foolish to put Goku on this pedestal as a perfect character that remembers everything he has ever learned and can never regress. Gohan regressed during the 7-year time skip yet he trained hard and overcame his previous state. Goku regressed a bit after the U6 tournament, enough to even get a scratch from a bullet.
      lord turbo wrote:You got it all wrong my friend, I want a story that is internally consistent with created lore, rules, and mechanics it establushed for it's world, not incoherent jibberish that doesn't mesh with the rest of the series because the author(s) creatively hit a block in writing.
      I too want a story that is internally consistent. However, no story is perfect and without flaws. The author will make mistakes. We use headcanon where we can to explain some mistakes. In other cases, no amount of headcanon will explain it and it will be a plot hole. There are plot holes in Dragon Ball. Nobody is saying they aren't. The concept of 'movement' however is internally consistent. The manga goes out of its way to remind you of instances where Goku learned about movement from his masters. There are several inconsistencies in Dragon Ball, but UI is not one of them.
      lord turbo wrote:Retroactive power levels from a secondary source such as the Daizenshiu does not trump the mian source material. Tenshinhan outright stated Goku was superior to his own level in every sense of the world, not equals. Tenshinhan couldn't handle Goku's power level so he had to settle for ring out instead.
      So even after you're given the official power levels stating they are equal, you refuse to believe it because you want to believe that the person with the higher power level always wins and that technique is not important. So here, I did the homework again for you, Chapter 132, Goku vs Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan uses 4 arms against Goku and Goku in response moves his arms fast as if they were 8 arms. Tenshinhan is surprised and commends Goku that he is a remarkable boy. He goes on to say that when he goes head-to-head versus Goku, he's always at a disadvantage. Gee I wonder why? You're going to say that it's because Goku is superior in 'power level'. I'm going to say it is because of better technique. Tenshinhan however not once stated that Goku is superior in power.
      [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

      Then Tenshinhan plans to use the Kihoho, which has enough destructive power to kill Goku and destroy the ring. He doesn't want to kill Goku though and tells him to dodge. By dodging it, Goku would get ring out. None of this implies that Tenshinhan is weaker than Goku, but that he's trying another strategy. Could he have faced Goku head-on? Maybe. But if there's a better strategy that can secure him the win, then why not use it? If this was a real fight with no ring, Tenshinhan already has enough destructive power to kill Goku.
      [spoiler]ImageImageImage[/spoiler]

      Even with Tenshinhan depleted of his energy after using the Kihoho, he can still deflect and/or absorb Goku's Super Kamehameha in the air. Goku has no choice but to fire the Kamehameha backwards to propel himself and hit Tenshinhan. If this is not strategy, I'm not sure what it is. If you think that this entire fight was just some brawl without any technique, you are definitely not watching the same show I am.
      [spoiler]ImageImage[/spoiler]
      lord turbo wrote:By technique you mean punching the crap out of each other, sure, what really happened was that Goku doinh chip damage and wearing Piccolo down through sheer attrition, attrition that makes no sense once I think about it since he concentrated all his remaining power and punched a giant gaping hole through Piccolo that he cod no block int he slightesr bite, ergo Goku was significantly stronger than Demon Piccolo during that exchange.

      Speaking of power levels the 260 one makes no sense since old Piccolo easily demolished Goku who is said to be 180 with less than half his battle power. That would make the younger and more powerful Demon Piccolo much higher than 360 in BP, that's above weighted clothing Goku and Piccolo at the beginning of Z even though weighted clothing Goku during the 23rd Budokai was stated stronger than he was when he killed young Demon Piccolo years ago.
      We're back to you believing that technique doesn't matter and that people just punch the crap out of each other in Dragon Ball. Power gaps in Dragon Ball were much smaller than they were in DBZ. Kami had a power level of 220 as per the Weekly Shonen Jump, the magazine in which the Dragon Ball manga was published (Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/list/). This was an old Kami. King Piccolo with his youth restored had a battle power of 260, higher than Kami. You thought that '260' referred to old Piccolo. This is incorrect. Kami and Piccolo Daimou were one in the same, just different from age. In fact, when Piccolo Daimou died and created the egg that spawned Piccolo Jr., Piccolo was able to obtain even higher strength than Kami himself. Why is that? Because he trained. He already had the memories and power of Piccolo Daimou. He trained more and obtained a higher power while Kami remained exactly the same as he was.

      Goku beat Piccolo by doing exactly what you just said. He used the Kamehameha to propel him and used all the ki in his fists to punch a hole through Piccolo. This again, is not because Goku had a higher battle power than King Piccolo. It is because he focused his attack. It's the same way as if someone got hit by a Kienzan from a fighter that is weaker. A Kienzan has the ki concentrated into a sharp point so that it can cut.
      lord turbo wrote:Only if you ignore pre-Roshi training Goku to 21st Budokai Roshi, Tao Pai Pai, 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan, Drum, Demon King Piccolo, Mr. Popo, Kami, 23rd Budokai Piccolo, Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, Dodoria/Zarbon, Ginyu Force, and Captin Ginyu, sure, Goku never once encountered an opponent with a huge power gap between them.
      I'll say it again. The power gap in Dragon Ball is much smaller than in DBZ and that is a fact. It's a fact because you prove it mathematically. Even though I said DB, you go on to mention opponents in DBZ...?? Everyone in DB had a battle power of less than 1000. The gap therefore, is not "huge". A gap between Freeza (120 million) and Goku initially (3 million) is a lot more than any gap in DB. The gap between Goku (90,000) and Ginyu (120k) is nothing. Raditz, Nappa, Dodoria, Zarbon, all of them not a huge gap. I'm talking about HUGE gaps where Goku had to use power to overcome his foes like turning into a Super Saiyan.
      lord turbo wrote:Thing is, such a thing is worthless if you don't have the power and speed to back it up with, otherwise you get wasted like Roshi did.
      Technique is useless if you don't have sufficient power and speed. Of course. I never said it isn't. The whole point of DBZ was for Goku to overcome power gaps to beat Freeza, Cell, and Buu because he needed power. That isn't the point here. The point is, that technique is also a VERY important factor in a fight. Goku has met Jiren who he cannot surpass in power no matter what. You and I have made a bet. I bet that he will not surpass Jiren in power in this fight. Whis himself said that the wall that Goku must break is not power. The only way for him to surpass his limits now is through UI or mastery of self-movement and this will NOT be worthless even if Goku has less power and speed than Jiren. This was the whole point of Roshi demonstrating what he did. UI is not an increase in speed and power. What Roshi used is NOT UI. Roshi did NOT move faster than Jiren to dodge those punches. This is anticipation and predicting movements. The entire premise of this show is not power and speed. If it is, I'm not even sure why you even watch this show given that you think that Toriyama is a terrible writer.
      lord turbo wrote: You mean what he has been doing through out the entire series from day 1? You do know that Goku ran into this very dilemma durinh the Android saga when Vegeta and company got their asses badly handed to them by 17 and 18. He chased after something beyond SSJ and he did this by training. Vegeta and Trunks discovered SSG2 amd SSG3 against Semi-Perfect Cell, Goku discovered FPSS and taught that to Gohan, all four of the saiyan characters came out leaps and bounds beyond what they were before entering the time chamber.
      And again, that is the whole point of the story. Yes, he's been trying to do that since day 1, that is THE point! Goku is still evolving and just because he's been doing that since day 1, it doesn't mean he's reached the end. Reaching higher levels of transformations is NOT technique but power. Again, he met opponents in DBZ where he had to overcome the power gap. He did so and continued to do so. However, he can't this time with Jiren. He simply cannot overcome the power gap with Jiren and hence, the only way to break the wall is through UI. Goku directly showed you in the manga of him trying to power up and break his limit. Whis directly stated that is not the correct way to break the wall.
      lord turbo wrote:Probably not since Goku peaked at the pinnacle of super-gifted prodigy martial artist since his training with Mr. Popo and Kami, that's why additional ttaining afterwards has always focused on strength gains since there's nothing else to learn since like Yuri Boyka Goku is by fsr the most complete fighter in the world that is until he's constantly regressed by Toriyama that is.
      You think just like Jiren does. Jiren believes that he can't learn anything from his masters anymore and makes fun of Goku for still learning something from Roshi. Goku has not reached the pinnacle of all martial arts. He does NOT know everything and is still learning. The additional training with Whis in BOTH the anime and manga, is NOT focused on strength gains. Whis has said numerous times to both Goku and Vegeta that they need to fix their movement and learn UI. That has been the single most recurring theme since DBS started. Goku is NOT complete. He's still evolving and he will never be complete or perfect.
      lord turbo wrote:You don't need technique if yoy have overwhelming power has shown by Mr. Popo punking Goku with ease and Kami finger flicking Goku's full force punch like he's a mere bug, and the modt definite being Angry Gohan headbutting Raditz with a BP higher than his own critically injuring him to the point je's subdued by a severely beaten and weakened Goku only to be killed by Piccolo's stronger attack.
      It seems I'm repeating myself over and over. Again, if the power gap is tremendously large, no matter what technique you have, it may not work. However, we've seen that characters who are significantly weaker still win against those that are stronger via technique. Ginyu uses the Body Change technique. Akuuman can explode the heart of any fighter with evil. There are instances of people with higher power beating those with lower power and also those with lower power beating those with higher power via wits, strategy, or technique.
      lord turbo wrote:SSG3 Trunks never beat Perfect Cell, as mentioned above Raditz was defeated by superior firepower, superior power with Akuuman, Kid Buu vs South Kaioshin is non-sensical anime filler, and the rest are from the DBS ToP trying to pretend the rules of DB are somehoe different than before whole contradicting themselves at the same time in the same saga.
      Missing the point again. SSJ Grade 3 Trunks never beat Perfect Cell. That is the point. He had greater power but lacked speed. Raditz was defeated by two fighters that were weaker than him. He was defeated by their coordination. Kid Buu vs South Kaioshin is not a non-sensical anime filler. It's in the manga! East Kaioshin directly states that North and West were killed by Buu. Then South Kaioshin put up the greatest fight but was absorbed. Lol, and now you say that DBS is trying to "pretend" the rules of DB are different than before. They are trying to write a story where it's not just about screaming, transformations, and power-ups. If you don't like it, then write your own story.
      lord turbo wrote:Come on man, what I said was not subjective in the least bit and is simply the none sugar coated truth. What you said about huge power gaps only existing when Freeza came on board and being absent in original DB is intellectually dishonest, false, and ignorant.
      We are back to the exact same subject that I already answered before. You can mathematically cannot disprove that there are smaller power gaps in DB compared to DBZ. You simply cannot. Prove it if you can. All power levels in DB are below 1000. The power gaps in DBZ are immensely large and Freeza was the first opponent to give this large power gap. This is not "dishonest, false, and ignorant", but actual fact that can be proven via mathematics.
      DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
      Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
      Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
      Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by TKA » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:38 pm

      Spider-Man wrote:However I want to add that Vegeta or Hit could have fulfilled the concept of a prototype UI far better than Roshi IMO..
      Yes, the two next powerful fighters would be the ones best able to demonstrate a technique that largely eschews battle power.

      I mean what? No, both of them are horrid choices. This is why we don't backseat write. Critique, or complain if you must, but don't backseat write.
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      You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by JazzMazz » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:14 am

      TKA wrote:
      Spider-Man wrote:However I want to add that Vegeta or Hit could have fulfilled the concept of a prototype UI far better than Roshi IMO..
      Yes, the two next powerful fighters would be the ones best able to demonstrate a technique that largely eschews battle power.

      I mean what? No, both of them are horrid choices. This is why we don't backseat write. Critique, or complain if you must, but don't backseat write.
      Except Hit was fighter that relied more on techniques until he realized that technique doesn't mean shit against pure power.

      Which kind of draws into question what even was the point of Hits arc as fighter?

      He was a warrior that used unique tactics and abilities to get an upper hand, but literally everyone and their mother called him a scrub for doing so, yet, apparently, that's what Goku just found out he should be doing?

      Its confusing.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by batistabus » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:23 am

      JazzMazz wrote:
      TKA wrote:Yes, the two next powerful fighters would be the ones best able to demonstrate a technique that largely eschews battle power.

      I mean what? No, both of them are horrid choices. This is why we don't backseat write. Critique, or complain if you must, but don't backseat write.
      Except Hit was fighter that relied more on techniques until he realized that technique doesn't mean shit against pure power.

      Which kind of draws into question what even was the point of Hits arc as fighter?

      He was a warrior that used unique tactics and abilities to get an upper hand, but literally everyone and their mother called him a scrub for doing so, yet, apparently, that's what Goku just found out he should be doing?

      Its confusing.
      You're ignoring the fact that Hit's "techniques" are gimmicks. He goes through his arc because Goku teaches him that his one-dimensional approach can't stand up to a true fighter with a competitive spirit. Migatte no Gokui is not a gimmick, it is the ultimate fighting method.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by JazzMazz » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:44 am

      batistabus wrote:
      JazzMazz wrote:
      TKA wrote:Yes, the two next powerful fighters would be the ones best able to demonstrate a technique that largely eschews battle power.

      I mean what? No, both of them are horrid choices. This is why we don't backseat write. Critique, or complain if you must, but don't backseat write.
      Except Hit was fighter that relied more on techniques until he realized that technique doesn't mean shit against pure power.

      Which kind of draws into question what even was the point of Hits arc as fighter?

      He was a warrior that used unique tactics and abilities to get an upper hand, but literally everyone and their mother called him a scrub for doing so, yet, apparently, that's what Goku just found out he should be doing?

      Its confusing.
      You're ignoring the fact that Hit's "techniques" are gimmicks. He goes through his arc because Goku teaches him that his one-dimensional approach can't stand up to a true fighter with a competitive spirit. Migatte no Gokui is not a gimmick, it is the ultimate fighting method.
      Then that could be said of literally of every other martial arts technique in the series, because, as has been consistently demonstrated, martial arts discipline doesn't mean anything against a vastly more powerful warrior. Thats something thats always been true.

      Literally every principle that has been taught to Goku has been demonstrated to mean nothing against an opponent with greater power.

      Saying somethings a gimmick, even though its just as valid, or even more valid than other techniques doesn't really say anything.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by HeroR » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:47 am

      JazzMazz wrote:
      TKA wrote:
      Spider-Man wrote:However I want to add that Vegeta or Hit could have fulfilled the concept of a prototype UI far better than Roshi IMO..
      Yes, the two next powerful fighters would be the ones best able to demonstrate a technique that largely eschews battle power.

      I mean what? No, both of them are horrid choices. This is why we don't backseat write. Critique, or complain if you must, but don't backseat write.
      Except Hit was fighter that relied more on techniques until he realized that technique doesn't mean shit against pure power.

      Which kind of draws into question what even was the point of Hits arc as fighter?

      He was a warrior that used unique tactics and abilities to get an upper hand, but literally everyone and their mother called him a scrub for doing so, yet, apparently, that's what Goku just found out he should be doing?

      Its confusing.
      In the case of Hit, I think the point that he was too reliance on his gimmick and didn't developed his skills elsewhere. Although, the manga did muddle the message since what Toyo did was make Hit a generic brawler until he used his trump card.

      In fact, everyone in this tournament has just been 'brawlers', even Roshi who didn't used a lot of the tech he had fighting kid Goku or Tien.
      Kanassa wrote:
      precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
      Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by Koitsukai » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:19 am

      To move one from the Roshi thing for a moment:

      Did Goku actually use blue kaioken? Krilin pretty much said so, but nobody made a big deal about it nor denied it, and also I thought kaioken blue was anime exclusive, even the mention of kaioken surprised me.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:40 am

      Koitsukai wrote:To move one from the Roshi thing for a moment:

      Did Goku actually use blue kaioken? Krilin pretty much said so, but nobody made a big deal about it nor denied it, and also I thought kaioken blue was anime exclusive, even the mention of kaioken surprised me.
      He didn’t use kaioken he overloaded himself so much that his body was damaged similar to manga kale.
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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by The Monkey King » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:05 am

      The Goku of chapter 39 would've thought USSJ was a good idea.

      Image

      "Yeah I'm totally ready to beat Cell!" :lol:
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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by Ki Breaker » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:46 am

      The Monkey King wrote: "Yeah I'm totally ready to beat Cell!" :lol:
      Picked up Freeza and Vegeta's bad habits, ChiChi was right, shouldn't have let him hang around bad company :lol:
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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by LightBing » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:28 am

      The Monkey King wrote:The Goku of chapter 39 would've thought USSJ was a good idea.
      The Goku of chapter 39 did the same as Goku against Vegeta and Freeza. Left without options against an overwhelming force he goes for power even when it may wreck his body.
      While Cell and Goku aren't the same, Cell like Goku saw the weakness of the Grades even schooling Trunks about it. Yet, when pushed to the edge against Gohan he does it regardless.

      There's a context here, Goku's not a Mary Sue. You mention the grades, yet Goku makes the same mistake with SSJ3 instead of improving SSJ2 the following arc. Had Goku followed with his own logic of the previous arc he would have done what Trunks did in the Zamasu Arc.

      Yes Goku's a genius which is the reason he get's Ultra Instinct when Beerus didn't for thousand of years. He also makes mistakes and needs help to there. Thing's aren't black and white there's a spectrum, you aren't either perfect or a dumbass.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by reecehoward » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:09 am

      TKA wrote:
      Spider-Man wrote:However I want to add that Vegeta or Hit could have fulfilled the concept of a prototype UI far better than Roshi IMO..
      Yes, the two next powerful fighters would be the ones best able to demonstrate a technique that largely eschews battle power.

      I mean what? No, both of them are horrid choices. This is why we don't backseat write. Critique, or complain if you must, but don't backseat write.
      How does UI eschew battle power when all Jiren did was raise his speed up (his battle power) to dodge and chop Roshi right off of the stage, thus making Roshi's supposed point moot.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:14 am

      LightBing wrote:
      The Monkey King wrote:The Goku of chapter 39 would've thought USSJ was a good idea.
      The Goku of chapter 39 did the same as Goku against Vegeta and Freeza. Left without options against an overwhelming force he goes for power even when it may wreck his body.
      While Cell and Goku aren't the same, Cell like Goku saw the weakness of the Grades even schooling Trunks about it. Yet, when pushed to the edge against Gohan he does it regardless.

      There's a context here, Goku's not a Mary Sue. You mention the grades, yet Goku makes the same mistake with SSJ3 instead of improving SSJ2 the following arc. Had Goku followed with his own logic of the previous arc he would have done what Trunks did in the Zamasu Arc.

      Yes Goku's a genius which is the reason he get's Ultra Instinct when Beerus didn't for thousand of years. He also makes mistakes and needs help to there. Thing's aren't black and white there's a spectrum, you aren't either perfect or a dumbass.
      Goku also forgot Roshi & Popo's lesson about not getting arrogant because someone above you will always exist in the BoG film and that's not even going into the myriad of ways Goku's behavior repeats itself.
      When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by TKA » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:17 am

      The Monkey King wrote:The Goku of chapter 39 would've thought USSJ was a good idea.

      Image

      "Yeah I'm totally ready to beat Cell!" :lol:
      If he only had 15 minutes to come up with a way to beat Cell, sure.

      Seems like you're forgetting the key component here is time. Because he has time is literally the only way Super Saiyan Grade 4 could come about.
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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by reecehoward » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:19 am

      LightBing wrote:
      The Monkey King wrote:The Goku of chapter 39 would've thought USSJ was a good idea.
      The Goku of chapter 39 did the same as Goku against Vegeta and Freeza. Left without options against an overwhelming force he goes for power even when it may wreck his body.
      While Cell and Goku aren't the same, Cell like Goku saw the weakness of the Grades even schooling Trunks about it. Yet, when pushed to the edge against Gohan he does it regardless.

      There's a context here, Goku's not a Mary Sue. You mention the grades, yet Goku makes the same mistake with SSJ3 instead of improving SSJ2 the following arc. Had Goku followed with his own logic of the previous arc he would have done what Trunks did in the Zamasu Arc.

      Yes Goku's a genius which is the reason he get's Ultra Instinct when Beerus didn't for thousand of years. He also makes mistakes and needs help to there. Thing's aren't black and white there's a spectrum, you aren't either perfect or a dumbass.
      The problem with this argument is that it makes it out as if technique on its own can beat more powerful foes, when that would be utterly absurd in every sense of storytelling. I like the way Laughingstockmedia put it in his recent video; it's like saying that Bruce can win a fight against The Flash due to having better martial arts technique. Like no, that would make no sense AT ALL. What's next, Daredevil beating Galactus because he knows how to wield a billy club and Galactus doesnt?! Technique doesn't mean shit in the face of a vast, and i mean VAST, physical difference. If the technique in question relies on the physicality of the user, it's utterly unreasonable for that person to even effect someone who is literally universes of leagues more physically powerful. Technique should only be a deciding factor when two opponents are relative to one another...much like in real life.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:58 am

      reecehoward wrote: How does UI eschew battle power when all Jiren did was raise his speed up (his battle power) to dodge and chop Roshi right off of the stage, thus making Roshi's supposed point moot.
      Ultra Instinct anticipates all movement, but it depends on a well trained body and sharpness to make one able to avoid super fast blows. It shouldn’t be an autowin, since the body has its limits and his foe may have higher bulk to compensate, but it’s a extreme skill that should dramatically increase his chances of victory.
      shadowfox87 wrote:*snip*
      Excellent breakdown. Good to know you’re a martial artist as well.

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      Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

      Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:03 pm

      reecehoward wrote:
      LightBing wrote:
      The Monkey King wrote:The Goku of chapter 39 would've thought USSJ was a good idea.
      The Goku of chapter 39 did the same as Goku against Vegeta and Freeza. Left without options against an overwhelming force he goes for power even when it may wreck his body.
      While Cell and Goku aren't the same, Cell like Goku saw the weakness of the Grades even schooling Trunks about it. Yet, when pushed to the edge against Gohan he does it regardless.

      There's a context here, Goku's not a Mary Sue. You mention the grades, yet Goku makes the same mistake with SSJ3 instead of improving SSJ2 the following arc. Had Goku followed with his own logic of the previous arc he would have done what Trunks did in the Zamasu Arc.

      Yes Goku's a genius which is the reason he get's Ultra Instinct when Beerus didn't for thousand of years. He also makes mistakes and needs help to there. Thing's aren't black and white there's a spectrum, you aren't either perfect or a dumbass.
      The problem with this argument is that it makes it out as if technique on its own can beat more powerful foes, when that would be utterly absurd in every sense of storytelling. I like the way Laughingstockmedia put it in his recent video; it's like saying that Bruce can win a fight against The Flash due to having better martial arts technique. Like no, that would make no sense AT ALL. What's next, Daredevil beating Galactus because he knows how to wield a billy club and Galactus doesnt?! Technique doesn't mean shit in the face of a vast, and i mean VAST, physical difference. If the technique in question relies on the physicality of the user, it's utterly unreasonable for that person to even effect someone who is literally universes of leagues more physically powerful. Technique should only be a deciding factor when two opponents are relative to one another...much like in real life.
      And this is fiction and also in fiction nothing is inherently good or bad it all depends on context and execution.You ever heard of mafuba,infinity gauntlet,heart of universe,magic,myriads of techniques,technologies and abilities that can overcome stronger or even vast physical differences aka hacks.
      Why power levels are important?
      The genre and roots of dragon ball

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