"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:12 pm

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
TKA wrote:
Yes, the two next powerful fighters would be the ones best able to demonstrate a technique that largely eschews battle power.

I mean what? No, both of them are horrid choices. This is why we don't backseat write. Critique, or complain if you must, but don't backseat write.
Except Hit was fighter that relied more on techniques until he realized that technique doesn't mean shit against pure power.

Which kind of draws into question what even was the point of Hits arc as fighter?

He was a warrior that used unique tactics and abilities to get an upper hand, but literally everyone and their mother called him a scrub for doing so, yet, apparently, that's what Goku just found out he should be doing?

Its confusing.
In the case of Hit, I think the point that he was too reliance on his gimmick and didn't developed his skills elsewhere. Although, the manga did muddle the message since what Toyo did was make Hit a generic brawler until he used his trump card.

In fact, everyone in this tournament has just been 'brawlers', even Roshi who didn't used a lot of the tech he had fighting kid Goku or Tien.
In anime,they did the same just in a different way.In U6 tournament,hit was shown to be extremely adaptable character who even without using his “gimmicks” as some people put rapidly improved his power as well as fighting style.

Manga as you mentioned portrays him(and nearly everyone)as brawlers.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:32 pm

Hawk9211 wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
LightBing wrote: The Goku of chapter 39 did the same as Goku against Vegeta and Freeza. Left without options against an overwhelming force he goes for power even when it may wreck his body.
While Cell and Goku aren't the same, Cell like Goku saw the weakness of the Grades even schooling Trunks about it. Yet, when pushed to the edge against Gohan he does it regardless.

There's a context here, Goku's not a Mary Sue. You mention the grades, yet Goku makes the same mistake with SSJ3 instead of improving SSJ2 the following arc. Had Goku followed with his own logic of the previous arc he would have done what Trunks did in the Zamasu Arc.

Yes Goku's a genius which is the reason he get's Ultra Instinct when Beerus didn't for thousand of years. He also makes mistakes and needs help to there. Thing's aren't black and white there's a spectrum, you aren't either perfect or a dumbass.
The problem with this argument is that it makes it out as if technique on its own can beat more powerful foes, when that would be utterly absurd in every sense of storytelling. I like the way Laughingstockmedia put it in his recent video; it's like saying that Bruce can win a fight against The Flash due to having better martial arts technique. Like no, that would make no sense AT ALL. What's next, Daredevil beating Galactus because he knows how to wield a billy club and Galactus doesnt?! Technique doesn't mean shit in the face of a vast, and i mean VAST, physical difference. If the technique in question relies on the physicality of the user, it's utterly unreasonable for that person to even effect someone who is literally universes of leagues more physically powerful. Technique should only be a deciding factor when two opponents are relative to one another...much like in real life.
And this is fiction and also in fiction nothing is inherently good or bad it all depends on context and execution.You ever heard of mafuba,infinity gauntlet,heart of universe,magic,myriads of techniques,technologies and abilities that can overcome stronger or even vast physical differences aka hacks.
Yeah but those hacks aren't dependent on the user's physical capabilities. UI IS! Which is my point in that post. He isn't drawing the power to do UI from any external force, it's just him negating reaction times and predicting his opponents movements. Roshi isn't anywhere near close to being physically capable of moving at speeds required to dodge Jiren on any level. The problem with this "technique>power" trope is that at a point they begin to border on no limit fallacies. Like if Roshi is capable of pulling this off on Jiren, he'd be able to do this on any villain prior and possibly any villain in the future, especially if he had full blown UI.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:17 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:
reecehoward wrote: The problem with this argument is that it makes it out as if technique on its own can beat more powerful foes, when that would be utterly absurd in every sense of storytelling. I like the way Laughingstockmedia put it in his recent video; it's like saying that Bruce can win a fight against The Flash due to having better martial arts technique. Like no, that would make no sense AT ALL. What's next, Daredevil beating Galactus because he knows how to wield a billy club and Galactus doesnt?! Technique doesn't mean shit in the face of a vast, and i mean VAST, physical difference. If the technique in question relies on the physicality of the user, it's utterly unreasonable for that person to even effect someone who is literally universes of leagues more physically powerful. Technique should only be a deciding factor when two opponents are relative to one another...much like in real life.
And this is fiction and also in fiction nothing is inherently good or bad it all depends on context and execution.You ever heard of mafuba,infinity gauntlet,heart of universe,magic,myriads of techniques,technologies and abilities that can overcome stronger or even vast physical differences aka hacks.
Yeah but those hacks aren't dependent on the user's physical capabilities. UI IS! Which is my point in that post. He isn't drawing the power to do UI from any external force, it's just him negating reaction times and predicting his opponents movements. Roshi isn't anywhere near close to being physically capable of moving at speeds required to dodge Jiren on any level. The problem with this "technique>power" trope is that at a point they begin to border on no limit fallacies. Like if Roshi is capable of pulling this off on Jiren, he'd be able to do this on any villain prior and possibly any villain in the future, especially if he had full blown UI.
Roshi doesn’t have UI.Putting that aside I don’t know where UI is unbeatable comes from?Anime has already shown that it is not an auto win considering jiren kept up with it.It’s comparable to Korin and poppo’s training just on a bigger scale.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:29 pm

LightBing wrote: The Goku of chapter 39 did the same as Goku against Vegeta and Freeza. Left without options against an overwhelming force he goes for power even when it may wreck his body.
While Cell and Goku aren't the same, Cell like Goku saw the weakness of the Grades even schooling Trunks about it. Yet, when pushed to the edge against Gohan he does it regardless.

There's a context here, Goku's not a Mary Sue. You mention the grades, yet Goku makes the same mistake with SSJ3 instead of improving SSJ2 the following arc. Had Goku followed with his own logic of the previous arc he would have done what Trunks did in the Zamasu Arc.

Yes Goku's a genius which is the reason he get's Ultra Instinct when Beerus didn't for thousand of years. He also makes mistakes and needs help to there. Thing's aren't black and white there's a spectrum, you aren't either perfect or a dumbass.
Ya know, I love posts like this that use the original series to prove a point.
If Goku bulked up into a grade 3 form and slowed down, then yeah, it would be out of character, but this is Goku with nothing left to try.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:31 pm

Hawk9211 wrote:
reecehoward wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote: And this is fiction and also in fiction nothing is inherently good or bad it all depends on context and execution.You ever heard of mafuba,infinity gauntlet,heart of universe,magic,myriads of techniques,technologies and abilities that can overcome stronger or even vast physical differences aka hacks.
Yeah but those hacks aren't dependent on the user's physical capabilities. UI IS! Which is my point in that post. He isn't drawing the power to do UI from any external force, it's just him negating reaction times and predicting his opponents movements. Roshi isn't anywhere near close to being physically capable of moving at speeds required to dodge Jiren on any level. The problem with this "technique>power" trope is that at a point they begin to border on no limit fallacies. Like if Roshi is capable of pulling this off on Jiren, he'd be able to do this on any villain prior and possibly any villain in the future, especially if he had full blown UI.
Roshi doesn’t have UI.Putting that aside I don’t know where UI is unbeatable comes from?Anime has already shown that it is not an auto win considering jiren kept up with it.It’s comparable to Korin and poppo’s training just on a bigger scale.
I know it isn't UI. In Whis's own words "It's still a far cry", which only exacerbates the issue. Roshi's inferior technique is doing this. So just imagine the real thing. But even THEN, what is a true UI user going to do if they can't hurt their opponent?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:33 pm

reecehoward wrote: The problem with this argument is that it makes it out as if technique on its own can beat more powerful foes, when that would be utterly absurd in every sense of storytelling. I like the way Laughingstockmedia put it in his recent video; it's like saying that Bruce can win a fight against The Flash due to having better martial arts technique. Like no, that would make no sense AT ALL. What's next, Daredevil beating Galactus because he knows how to wield a billy club and Galactus doesnt?! Technique doesn't mean shit in the face of a vast, and i mean VAST, physical difference. If the technique in question relies on the physicality of the user, it's utterly unreasonable for that person to even effect someone who is literally universes of leagues more physically powerful. Technique should only be a deciding factor when two opponents are relative to one another...much like in real life.
That's something to take into consideration. Power has always been the most important factor in Dragon Ball and technique shouldn't surpass easily it bar exceptions.
You seem to be assuming Muten Roshi had the slightest chance against Jiren, even if he had Ultra Instinct. That's not the cause, even before "getting serious"(the panel with the look) Jiren put two hits on Muten Roshi. Jiren is not serious, it's obvious.

Now let's see how Ultra Instinct performs against Jiren in a serious fight and if it's benefits are logical. Maybe this auto-dodging makes Jiren have to exert himself much more to hit Goku and even when he hits him the damage is reduced. That could make a more even fight and it's believable. Goku's not stupidly weaker than Jiren, it's hard to determine at this point but in his augmented state last chapter he got a few hits in.

Better to wait and see instead of assuming it's an auto-win technique. Which if represented that way I'm with you calling it bullshit.

My prediction is that in attack mode, Ultra Instinct makes you hit harder because you don't have the brain in the way. So it will basically be a power up, except it's roots are in technique instead of a transformation.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:37 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote:
LightBing wrote: The Goku of chapter 39 did the same as Goku against Vegeta and Freeza. Left without options against an overwhelming force he goes for power even when it may wreck his body.
While Cell and Goku aren't the same, Cell like Goku saw the weakness of the Grades even schooling Trunks about it. Yet, when pushed to the edge against Gohan he does it regardless.

There's a context here, Goku's not a Mary Sue. You mention the grades, yet Goku makes the same mistake with SSJ3 instead of improving SSJ2 the following arc. Had Goku followed with his own logic of the previous arc he would have done what Trunks did in the Zamasu Arc.

Yes Goku's a genius which is the reason he get's Ultra Instinct when Beerus didn't for thousand of years. He also makes mistakes and needs help to there. Thing's aren't black and white there's a spectrum, you aren't either perfect or a dumbass.
Ya know, I love posts like this that use the original series to prove a point.
If Goku bulked up into a grade 3 form and slowed down, then yeah, it would be out of character, but this is Goku with nothing left to try.
But it still doesn't make sense in this scenario for him to NOT try to increase his power. I can see if he couldn't hit Jiren at all, but Jiren is literally standing in one spot and tanking Goku's hits. Goku's conclusion IS the most logical one in this case. He can't hurt Jiren, dodging Jiren isn't the issue at all. Roshi did all that for Jiren to just casually dodge him and knock him out of the ring. There was literally no point to the entire scene, especially the berating of Goku.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:38 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
batistabus wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Except Hit was fighter that relied more on techniques until he realized that technique doesn't mean shit against pure power.

Which kind of draws into question what even was the point of Hits arc as fighter?

He was a warrior that used unique tactics and abilities to get an upper hand, but literally everyone and their mother called him a scrub for doing so, yet, apparently, that's what Goku just found out he should be doing?

Its confusing.
You're ignoring the fact that Hit's "techniques" are gimmicks. He goes through his arc because Goku teaches him that his one-dimensional approach can't stand up to a true fighter with a competitive spirit. Migatte no Gokui is not a gimmick, it is the ultimate fighting method.
Then that could be said of literally of every other martial arts technique in the series, because, as has been consistently demonstrated, martial arts discipline doesn't mean anything against a vastly more powerful warrior. Thats something thats always been true.

Literally every principle that has been taught to Goku has been demonstrated to mean nothing against an opponent with greater power.

Saying somethings a gimmick, even though its just as valid, or even more valid than other techniques doesn't really say anything.
Let me explain this a different way.

Goku vs Hit:
>Hit, calmly, uses same "unbeatable" technique he's used without a challenge for centuries against Goku. It works at first.
>Goku ADAPTS, landing the first punch Hit has felt in centuries.
>Hit amps it up. He starts getting excited.
>Goku continues to think ahead and adapt.
>Goku is unsatisfied with winning under these conditions, surrenders.
>Hit, invigorated by the challenge, learns that he can get a lot stronger by working on fighting outside the use of Time-skip.
>He shows the fruits of his labor at the Top.

Okay. A gimmick is a ability that is very strong at first, but can be overcome when you find the "secret" to defeating it. Gimmicks allow weaker fighters an opportunity to take down a much stronger fighter if they are unable to problem solve quickly enough. Gimmicks are staples of Dragon Ball tournaments going back to the beginning. They are, in essence, little riddles that our heroes need to solve in order to progress in the tournament. The secret to overcoming Time-skip is predicting Hit's next move or powering up. Once Goku overcame Hit's gimmick, Hit didn't stand a chance. Hit didn't have an arsenal of other techniques or sufficient fighting ability to rely on after his one gimmick was overcome.

Yes, a lot of other techniques in Dragon Ball are gimmicks. Some techniques, like Kikoho, have huge drawbacks that make them impractical in the long run. Migatte no Gokui, on the other hand, has no riddle to solve. It is, as Hit might say, "true strength" that can only be defeated by a greater strength. By true strength, we're talking about a warriors mentality (adaptation to circumstances and mind games) as well as physical strength.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:51 pm

reecehoward wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote: Ya know, I love posts like this that use the original series to prove a point.
If Goku bulked up into a grade 3 form and slowed down, then yeah, it would be out of character, but this is Goku with nothing left to try.
But it still doesn't make sense in this scenario for him to NOT try to increase his power. I can see if he couldn't hit Jiren at all, but Jiren is literally standing in one spot and tanking Goku's hits. Goku's conclusion IS the most logical one in this case. He can't hurt Jiren, dodging Jiren isn't the issue at all. Roshi did all that for Jiren to just casually dodge him and knock him out of the ring. There was literally no point to the entire scene, especially the berating of Goku.
I was just talking about the Kaioken like form. The UI side is quite a bit different, but I guess Goku Is putting a lot of weight into Whis’ words, and he thinks if he manages to attain that it’s gonna be a win for him. Or he just knows that his current limitations on strength won’t allow him to beat Jiren in a straight up brawl, so he’ll use UI to get a win through ringing him
out or something. Honestly it’s just adds something to his current arsenal, so for Goku it can’t hurt. We know it’s quite a bit different than what Roshi had shown too, so maybe it does give a power increase.
Either way, Goku will have a lot of faith in Whis, so he probably does believe UI is like an automatic win.

Edit: posted a bit early. Now the reason for Roshi doing what he did does seem a bit strange, but I guess he wanted to teach Goku his ass pull as it may be the last lesson he could ever teach Goku, and he was hoping it may just improve him to give him one last push. Maybe he thought that he would show Goku this lesson and Goku would go above and beyond it in typical Goku fashion when the situation is getting dire.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:53 pm

LightBing wrote:
reecehoward wrote: The problem with this argument is that it makes it out as if technique on its own can beat more powerful foes, when that would be utterly absurd in every sense of storytelling. I like the way Laughingstockmedia put it in his recent video; it's like saying that Bruce can win a fight against The Flash due to having better martial arts technique. Like no, that would make no sense AT ALL. What's next, Daredevil beating Galactus because he knows how to wield a billy club and Galactus doesnt?! Technique doesn't mean shit in the face of a vast, and i mean VAST, physical difference. If the technique in question relies on the physicality of the user, it's utterly unreasonable for that person to even effect someone who is literally universes of leagues more physically powerful. Technique should only be a deciding factor when two opponents are relative to one another...much like in real life.
That's something to take into consideration. Power has always been the most important factor in Dragon Ball and technique shouldn't surpass easily it bar exceptions.
You seem to be assuming Muten Roshi had the slightest chance against Jiren, even if he had Ultra Instinct. That's not the cause, even before "getting serious"(the panel with the look) Jiren put two hits on Muten Roshi. Jiren is not serious, it's obvious.

Now let's see how Ultra Instinct performs against Jiren in a serious fight and if it's benefits are logical. Maybe this auto-dodging makes Jiren have to exert himself much more to hit Goku and even when he hits him the damage is reduced. That could make a more even fight and it's believable. Goku's not stupidly weaker than Jiren, it's hard to determine at this point but in his augmented state last chapter he got a few hits in.

Better to wait and see instead of assuming it's an auto-win technique. Which if represented that way I'm with you calling it bullshit.

My prediction is that in attack mode, Ultra Instinct makes you hit harder because you don't have the brain in the way. So it will basically be a power up, except it's roots are in technique instead of a transformation.
I know Roshi didn't, and Roshi know he didn't. The problem with it is that no one knows what UI truly does in u7 except for Whis and Beerus. So Roshi saying Goku only focuses on power, when the situation Goku is in actually requires power more than anything, makes no sense because Jiren isn't even using any type of discernible technique and is LETTING Goku hit him. That's my issue with it all. This entire scene loses it's point the moment Jiren decides he has enough of Roshi. It's still power>technique.

Other than that, I'm glad you can at least see where I'm coming from with this.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by reecehoward » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:03 pm

batistabus wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
batistabus wrote: You're ignoring the fact that Hit's "techniques" are gimmicks. He goes through his arc because Goku teaches him that his one-dimensional approach can't stand up to a true fighter with a competitive spirit. Migatte no Gokui is not a gimmick, it is the ultimate fighting method.
Then that could be said of literally of every other martial arts technique in the series, because, as has been consistently demonstrated, martial arts discipline doesn't mean anything against a vastly more powerful warrior. Thats something thats always been true.

Literally every principle that has been taught to Goku has been demonstrated to mean nothing against an opponent with greater power.

Saying somethings a gimmick, even though its just as valid, or even more valid than other techniques doesn't really say anything.
Let me explain this a different way.

Goku vs Hit:
>Hit, calmly, uses same "unbeatable" technique he's used without a challenge for centuries against Goku. It works at first.
>Goku ADAPTS, landing the first punch Hit has felt in centuries.
>Hit amps it up. He starts getting excited.
>Goku continues to think ahead and adapt.
>Goku is unsatisfied with winning under these conditions, surrenders.
>Hit, invigorated by the challenge, learns that he can get a lot stronger by working on fighting outside the use of Time-skip.
>He shows the fruits of his labor at the Top.

Okay. A gimmick is a ability that is very strong at first, but can be overcome when you find the "secret" to defeating it. Gimmicks allow weaker fighters an opportunity to take down a much stronger fighter if they are unable to problem solve quickly enough. Gimmicks are staples of Dragon Ball tournaments going back to the beginning. They are, in essence, little riddles that our heroes need to solve in order to progress in the tournament. The secret to overcoming Time-skip is predicting Hit's next move or powering up. Once Goku overcame Hit's gimmick, Hit didn't stand a chance. Hit didn't have an arsenal of other techniques or sufficient fighting ability to rely on after his one gimmick was overcome.

Yes, a lot of other techniques in Dragon Ball are gimmicks. Some techniques, like Kikoho, have huge drawbacks that make them impractical in the long run. Migatte no Gokui, on the other hand, has no riddle to solve. It is, as Hit might say, "true strength" that can only be defeated by a greater strength. By true strength, we're talking about a warriors mentality (adaptation to circumstances and mind games) as well as physical strength.
I can think of several logical ways to overcome an opponent with UI if I were writing this. Telekinesis, cryokinesis, omnidirectional blasts...There are definitely logical ways around it just based on the description of what it does. Idk if that would make it a gimmick, but there are other types of techniques that could potentially overcome it if opponents are on an equal power tier.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:11 pm

Koitsukai wrote:To move one from the Roshi thing for a moment:

Did Goku actually use blue kaioken? Krilin pretty much said so, but nobody made a big deal about it nor denied it, and also I thought kaioken blue was anime exclusive, even the mention of kaioken surprised me.
He didn't use Blue Kaioken. I've asked some Japanese translators and they said it was only compared to Kaioken. Krillin's statement just got translated poorly in Viz. He was only agreeing with Tenshinhan that it does put a toll on the body.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:59 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Koitsukai wrote:To move one from the Roshi thing for a moment:

Did Goku actually use blue kaioken? Krilin pretty much said so, but nobody made a big deal about it nor denied it, and also I thought kaioken blue was anime exclusive, even the mention of kaioken surprised me.
He didn't use Blue Kaioken. I've asked some Japanese translators and they said it was only compared to Kaioken. Krillin's statement just got translated poorly in Viz. He was only agreeing with Tenshinhan that it does put a toll on the body.
"It's basically Kaioken, but we're not saying it's Kaioken."
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:09 pm

reecehoward wrote:I can think of several logical ways to overcome an opponent with UI if I were writing this. Telekinesis, cryokinesis, omnidirectional blasts...There are definitely logical ways around it just based on the description of what it does. Idk if that would make it a gimmick, but there are other types of techniques that could potentially overcome it if opponents are on an equal power tier.
My point is not that MnG is unbeatable or unsuseptible to gimmicks. In your example, telekinesis is the gimmick. In Gurd's case, he can only stop time as long as he can hold his breath, or he can only paralyze people if he isn't moving himself. You solve the gimmick by working around those one-dimensional approaches.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:12 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:He didn't use Blue Kaioken. I've asked some Japanese translators and they said it was only compared to Kaioken. Krillin's statement just got translated poorly in Viz. He was only agreeing with Tenshinhan that it does put a toll on the body.
The English seems perfectly fine to me. Tenshinhan was only asking if it could be compared to Kaio-ken(Whis is the one who described its effects), and Kuririn only hooked onto the comparison. Questioning if it's like Kaio-ken tells you it's not Kaio-ken.

Hey, now that I'm replying to you, something you said before has stuck in my craw:
Then you haven't read enough Chinese novels or watched enough wuxia. In all cases, the main character starts off talentless, learns some moves from their masters, then surpasses those masters and learns new things from new masters. Even if the main character has surpassed his previous masters, he/she is reminded of certain moves and fundamentals later in the story by those very same masters. The lesson in the story is that no matter how high the main character goes, they can always learn something new, even from those he/she has surpassed, whether it is mental or physical. Goku is a character that is flawed. That is the point of the main character. A character has to be flawed in order for that character to improve. Goku never claimed to be 'perfect' and he says he doesn't want to be directly in the manga. In real life, people do regress to a previous state. People forget to train and they lose power. People forget moves they've learned before. It's foolish to put Goku on this pedestal as a perfect character that remembers everything he has ever learned and can never regress. Gohan regressed during the 7-year time skip yet he trained hard and overcame his previous state. Goku regressed a bit after the U6 tournament, enough to even get a scratch from a bullet.
There's a lot of disagreement I have with this. I don't want get into all of it, especially since I'm not doing you the courtesy of responding to your post in full. But could I get you to agree that not wanting Goku to have to relearn what we thought he already knew doesn't mean I want him to be flawless? He can have mastered everything he's been taught about fighting and still be incomplete because there's still yet more out there to learn.

And just as an aside, that bullet thing happened after Black, not the U6 tournament. Unless I missed/am forgetting something.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:28 pm

Simere wrote:The English seems perfectly fine to me. Tenshinhan was only asking if it could be compared to Kaio-ken(Whis is the one who described its effects), and Kuririn only hooked onto the comparison. Questioning if it's like Kaio-ken tells you it's not Kaio-ken.
It's Krillin's English that says, "The Kaioken? Now, after all this time? Will it even work?" - It's this part that was confusing and was ambiguous that led many readers to believe that Krillin confirmed that it was indeed the Kaioken. Goku himself didn't call it Kaioken though which almost always, he does. It's still ambiguous but I do not believe that he used the Kaioken.
Simere wrote: There's a lot of disagreement I have with this. I don't want get into all of it, especially since I'm not doing you the courtesy of responding to your post in full. But could I get you to agree that not wanting Goku to have to relearn what we thought he already knew doesn't mean I want him to be flawless? He can have mastered everything he's been taught about fighting and still be incomplete because there's still yet more out there to learn.

And just as an aside, that bullet thing happened after Black, not the U6 tournament. Unless I missed/am forgetting something.
Yes, you're right. The bullet thing happened after the Zamasu saga and before the ToP which is still after the U6 tournament. I just wasn't specific enough, my bad. My point was that Goku himself said that his skills were getting rusty. And sure, I can agree that "not wanting Goku to have to relearn what he was previously thought doesn't mean he's flawless". However, you must understand as a character, he is prone to forget or get rusty. Lots of moves in martial arts become obsolete when they aren't used often or are replaced by better moves. Goku most likely remembers all the fundamentals he's been taught but having a reminder of that wouldn't hurt, would it? Can you agree to that?
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Simere
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:34 pm

I can agree in theory it wouldn't hurt. I can't agree in the context of this execution that it didn't hurt.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:38 pm

the power of gohan may be the least import for me but ... this is his only fight that had and happened off-panel .. for all the time he was absent is not at all satisfactory. the one who had to face kelfa was goku ui not only by level of power, both had "magic" in their fight for their personalities in the anime with gohan really there is nothing.
what about roshi ... well at least he did something after standing without doing anything and taught something to goku that would be important depending on how you see it ...
I liked however how goku got the UI Omen in this version more as a technique and not as much as a transformation

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:59 pm

I agree that going for more power was a logical move on Goku's part, it's not like he was being outskilled by Jiren, what he needed really was pure power. Also, had a good laugh at Roshi acting like he was some kind of combat genius.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:26 am

In my opinion that last chapter (39) has been a complete disaster with a few qualities but the problem of these few qualities is that they work only if you haven't read the 42 DB volumes lol

And I was naive enough to get some big of new hope after 38 how wrong was I, Toyotaro you are really messing up now lol
Gohan with the Piccolo gi was about to fight Kefla, I was like ok this might be good, finally Gohan will get the respect he deserves and get some old school Gohan, well yeah a little bit but not for the most part, it was teased and there was a huge build up and what happens now, the fight happens in the ******* background like screw you Toto don't you ******** put Gohan's return on the background we've been waiting for that for how many years lol
Yes I had some expectations that were not met, but Toto you made teased us for it ffs lol

Also errr, Mystic Gohan trained less than 24hrs not even in the RoSaT nothing just basically some sparring with Piccolo (from what we know as there is no flashback) is now stronger than a Potala Fusion with Caulifla (I kindly remind she was match for Golden Freeza previous chapter lol) and Brolette lol ok we do not know really how strong Brolette is but she still nuked half of the contestants in the tournament, but fusion of both don't equal Gohan lol
I mean why not EXCEPT that it seriously jeopardizes the strength levels from the original manga lol
I mean I was 100% sure until now that Vegetto was stronger than Mystic Gohan am I right lol
So this means Gohan full potential would be more or less than Vegetto, sorry this doesn't make any kind of sense lol

Huge problem in this arc, ok the anime was taking too much time but can the manga even be more rushed, five pages for Gohan/Kefla battle, after 5 chapters we're already at UI lol
Speaking of UI lol, it's in my opinion retarded in the manga, an industrial carnage lol
Please someone lie to me and tell me Toriyama has nothing to do with that chapter lol
I've read better fanfics ffs lol

Jiren lost all his charisma, he was very well introduced but right now he's even more bland than in the anime, 17 is botched lol

So to get back to my first sentence, ok good to make a Roshi/Goku interaction but when Roshi tells Goku Goku is not a attentive student, I stop reading lol
I mean we are talking about a kid who could reproduce Roshi's Kamehameha (that Roshi took like 20 or 50 years to master) in the span of 5 seconds lol
We are talking about a dude who dropped education of his kids to go train, instead of working in a field and provide for his family prefers to go make push-ups at Kaio's place lol
And you are telling me that Goku, who's a genius, who assimilated the SSJG in 5 mns, the dude who beat all the masters he had in 2 days, the dude who at one point had such a high level of wisdom he could read minds by touching the forehead of someone, and that dude, Roshi tells me that dude is not attentive, sorry but this is complete bollocks lol

Yes you put a few flashbacks with the wind and all that but it has no sense at all, Goku mastered all his classes at lightspeed yeah except maybe UI lol

This is not even credible, how can one consider a single second that Goku could not think of dodging, SINCE WHEN does Goku NOT think when he fights, since when does he only rely on brute force lol
For reminder Goku has always beaten his foes because he has a better understanding of martial arts than them lol
Goku is a dude who at some point get above SSJ to drop it realizing it was slowing him down only by transforming (not even fighting) and then he thought all of his own of staying SSJ as in a natural state to get used to it and master it better, and you want to make me believe that dude only thinks about power and has no subtility in combat lol
The dude has 12 yo he would beat Roshi only by copying the techniques, and you tell me he's not a good student??? Ffs lol
Yes Goku will always remain a student of the Turtle school etc but this is not how you can tell that lol
Goku in DBS is like nothing happened after Vol 4 of DB, now in DBS to get stronger Goku only thinks of transformation I say no that's not who he is, nowhere in the original manga you can find something telling you that, for sure he likes to fight but he also always had greater reasons lol

Toyotaro you were supposed to be the chosen one, you're currently dying in the lava lol

As far as I'm concerned the whole Top is a disaster lol

At the limit I could have been satisfied with the fights only if the narrative gets screwed up, but ffs you make Gohan vs Kefla 5 pages, you make Vegeta vs Toppo in the background, you make Roshi vs ... Jiren lol
The idea could have been genius, but in the context it makes no sense lol

Why did UI work in the anime? Because it was in urgent state Goku was on the verge of death and his instinct allows him last second to reach that state, that was coherent with the Goku we know, he acquire techniques with his instinct because he's a fighting genius and really has it in the bllod, but in the manga, in this very chapter, you make Goku intellectualize UI, "omg thank you some Roshi hopefully you were there never I thought of dodging" I think I'm gonna cry lol
In the anime UI is a mental state of perfection of a fighter, attack and dodge instinctively, liberating power it's the climax of any fighter, the ultimate martial art, its meditation trance state, this worked lol
Here in the manga, it looks like some basics "hey just think of dodging you moron", god why this doesn't work for crying out loud lol

To get back to Gohan, only explanation we get is a one sentence Piccolo to Krillin "I just awoken his fighting spirit but he got stronger in power" and there it is literally "go **** yourself" lol
And omg, Goku "Wow I never knew Gohan was such a great fighter" uughh ........... really lol
Really? We are talking about the dude who sent his 9 yo child fight alone against Cell in his stead right lol

This chapter is one of the worst thing that ever happened to this franchise, here you have it: Dragon Ball in 2018 : Roshi teaches to Goku how to dodge lol

My last hope for the manga to save this arc is 100% gone, I warn you all if they **** up the Broly movie I'll go berserk lol

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