"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:04 pm

JazzMazz wrote:I think that simply raises the question that since those characters added nothing to the story Toyo wanted to tell, why did he include them in the first place, since them existing as a part of the story literally did nothing for the story besides halt it in the screen time they were given?
See, I don't think this is a particularly difficult thing to understand: these characters being fully fleshed out characters isn't needed for the story. Them being obstacles is needed for the story being told. Let me use an example:

We don't need to know the backstory of every uruk-hai character from Lord of the Rings, and giving them backstories and personalities, as well as wants and desires is essentially a waste of time given what their role is. That role is to be an obstacle for the heroes to overcome, as well as being a menacing tangible threat, since Sauron isn't a physical being that a viewer/reader can fully wrap their head around.

These characters serve a similar role. They're there to show that there are fully-lived-in universes out there, they're obstacles for the heroes to overcome, and they're there to show why our heroes are our heroes—what makes our heroes special.

This is such a basic writing trope that I didn't think we'd still be talking about it months later. Not every character introduced will be a rich character who plays an essential, one-of-a-kind role. Characters serve a story, and some characters serve a story well by being disposable.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:35 am

Green_Goblin wrote:I was so disappointed that we didn't saw all the contestants' eliminations in the Tournament of Power. Here is how I would have depict it:
  • Dr. Rota - Could've been eliminated by Katopesla (at least he'll be good in doing something) before he's able to demonstrate his special ability.
    Narirama - Could've been taken out by Hit and Cabba (instead of Basil who's erased by this point).
    Viara - Could've been taken out by Shosa and Majora using a tactic (instead of Andorids 17 and 18 just spamming ki blasts at him till he "had enough" and defuncts).
    Majora - Will be going down with Viara, as his and Shosa's combined strength are not enough and requires a "sacrifice" to pull the robot out.
    Monna - Could've been taken out by SSJ Caulifla and Botamo.
    Caway - Could've been eliminated by Dr. Paparoni.
    Vikal - Could've been eliminated by Maji-Kayo.
    Lilibeu - Could've been elminated by Kunshi.
    Hermila - Could've been eliminated by Kahseral.
    Nigrisshi - Could've avoided fighting LSSJ Kale by attacking Gohan who'll stomp him off.
I actually don't see the point of these changes. Not from the perspective of 'these are tertiary characters, they don't need significant spotlight' but these changes don't even expand on them in any significant way.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Green_Goblin » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:01 am

TKA wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote: I don't think u r in a position to preach. Anyone. Anything.
Because I don't remember the names of fodder characters that add nothing to the story?
I originally didn't intended to answer this troll comment but since it embarked a debate here, here are my 2 cents for ur question about these minor characters who indeed had a role as story elements in the Tournament of Power plot/tale:
  • Dr. Rota - A comic-relief character with an allegedly Medical-special ability that entitled him a "Doctor". Mostly created to be the next meme of the community.
    Narirama - Was one of Universe 3's trump cards only to be taken out early in the Tournament, by the combined force of Hit and Basil. Well, mostly Hit who was the strongest rival of Goku by this point in the franchise.
    Viara - Was used to give Andorids 17 and 18 a "siblings moment" and to demonstrate their infinite energy supply.
    Majora - Was served to give Krillin and Android 18 an option for a "married couple team up to victory over a stronger opponent".
    Monna - Was used to be Cabba's kick-off to Super Saiyan 2.
    Caway - Was used to hype Roshi's achievements of winning against "multiversal level fighters" despite being weaker than them. And as his next sexual harrasment victim.
    Vikal - Was used to demonstrate the high social rank/status of the Magical Girls/Kamikaze Fireballs in Universe 2.
    Lilibeu - Was used to demonstrate that if one snooze it, she/he'll lose it in this kind of a battle royale.
    Hermila - Was the "tactical villain" of Tien's elimination episode. He was responsible of being a major mysterious threat for most of the fighters in the arena despite being weaker than most of them.
    Nigrisshi - Was misused. Was supposed to be one of Universe 3 top dogs, but was taken out by a single kick from BASE Cabba for some bizzare reason. The biggest disappointement of the ToP for me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:01 pm

Green_Goblin wrote: I originally didn't intended to answer this troll comment but since it embarked a debate here, here are my 2 cents for ur question about these minor characters who indeed had a role as story elements in the Tournament of Power plot/tale:
  • Dr. Rota - A comic-relief character with an allegedly Medical-special ability that entitled him a "Doctor". Mostly created to be the next meme of the community.
    Narirama - Was one of Universe 3's trump cards only to be taken out early in the Tournament, by the combined force of Hit and Basil. Well, mostly Hit who was the strongest rival of Goku by this point in the franchise.
    Viara - Was used to give Andorids 17 and 18 a "siblings moment" and to demonstrate their infinite energy supply.
    Majora - Was served to give Krillin and Android 18 an option for a "married couple team up to victory over a stronger opponent".
    Monna - Was used to be Cabba's kick-off to Super Saiyan 2.
    Caway - Was used to hype Roshi's achievements of winning against "multiversal level fighters" despite being weaker than them. And as his next sexual harrasment victim.
    Vikal - Was used to demonstrate the high social rank/status of the Magical Girls/Kamikaze Fireballs in Universe 2.
    Lilibeu - Was used to demonstrate that if one snooze it, she/he'll lose it in this kind of a battle royale.
    Hermila - Was the "tactical villain" of Tien's elimination episode. He was responsible of being a major mysterious threat for most of the fighters in the arena despite being weaker than most of them.
    Nigrisshi - Was misused. Was supposed to be one of Universe 3 top dogs, but was taken out by a single kick from BASE Cabba for some bizzare reason. The biggest disappointement of the ToP for me.
A comment that disagrees with you is not a "troll comment," guy. You would probably do well to remember that.

And I don't see how any of that adds anything of value to the story. In fact, all of that actively makes the story worse because for all of that to be conveyed, you need to devote time to it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:38 pm

Green_Goblin wrote:I was so disappointed that we didn't saw all the contestants' eliminations in the Tournament of Power. Here is how I would have depict it:
[spoiler]Dr. Rota - Could've been eliminated by Katopesla (at least he'll be good in doing something) before he's able to demonstrate his special ability.
Narirama - Could've been taken out by Hit and Cabba (instead of Basil who's erased by this point).
Viara - Could've been taken out by Shosa and Majora using a tactic (instead of Andorids 17 and 18 just spamming ki blasts at him till he "had enough" and defuncts).
Majora - Will be going down with Viara, as his and Shosa's combined strength are not enough and requires a "sacrifice" to pull the robot out.
Monna - Could've been taken out by SSJ Caulifla and Botamo.
Caway - Could've been eliminated by Dr. Paparoni.
Vikal - Could've been eliminated by Maji-Kayo.
Lilibeu - Could've been elminated by Kunshi.
Hermila - Could've been eliminated by Kahseral.
Nigrisshi - Could've avoided fighting LSSJ Kale by attacking Gohan who'll stomp him off.[/spoiler]
It could been better, I agree. But as I said on other thread: the fault of viewers not caring about anyone in this arc besides U6, U7 and U11 is on the script. I would enjoy if these characters were proper developed and not just be random nobodies that are just there to be wasted, for this tournament stakes a lot of thing could've been better.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:26 pm

Noah wrote:It could been better, I agree. But as I said on other thread: the fault of viewers not caring about anyone in this arc besides U6, U7 and U11 is on the script
But the script doesn't want you to care about anyone else? The manga literally has only focused on these universes. Everything else is just part of the setting.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:01 am

TKA wrote:
Noah wrote:It could been better, I agree. But as I said on other thread: the fault of viewers not caring about anyone in this arc besides U6, U7 and U11 is on the script
But the script doesn't want you to care about anyone else? The manga literally has only focused on these universes. Everything else is just part of the setting.
I think it's really obvious why they have so many fighters.

1. To establish that Goku is the best fighter in all of the universes(kinda).
2. If they didn't require so many fighters, then Goku wouldn't have had to recruit Frieza and 17 out of necessity. Do you really think that if the ToP was 5 fighters then he'd pick Vegeta, 17, Frieza, and Roshi?

That's why all of there are 8 universes fighting with 10 fighters each. It's not because all 80 of them matter.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:56 am

TKA wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:I think that simply raises the question that since those characters added nothing to the story Toyo wanted to tell, why did he include them in the first place, since them existing as a part of the story literally did nothing for the story besides halt it in the screen time they were given?
See, I don't think this is a particularly difficult thing to understand: these characters being fully fleshed out characters isn't needed for the story. Them being obstacles is needed for the story being told. Let me use an example:

We don't need to know the backstory of every uruk-hai character from Lord of the Rings, and giving them backstories and personalities, as well as wants and desires is essentially a waste of time given what their role is. That role is to be an obstacle for the heroes to overcome, as well as being a menacing tangible threat, since Sauron isn't a physical being that a viewer/reader can fully wrap their head around.

These characters serve a similar role. They're there to show that there are fully-lived-in universes out there, they're obstacles for the heroes to overcome, and they're there to show why our heroes are our heroes—what makes our heroes special.

This is such a basic writing trope that I didn't think we'd still be talking about it months later. Not every character introduced will be a rich character who plays an essential, one-of-a-kind role. Characters serve a story, and some characters serve a story well by being disposable.
I have expressed my problems with this arc a number of times and imo a lot of problems like pacing,unimportant characters etc. would have been solved if they had set up some of these universes before.They didn't so we ended up with too subpar versions.Anime trys to be infinity war without the setup and manga is just bland,uninteresting and uncreative.

You could say stories like greedy dog,thirsty crow etc. don't need elaborate plots and such things which I agree with,but don't expect me to praise it.I'll just read it,at the most say okay and then forget about it.

The problem with manga contestants is that all of them outside saruman,sauron etc. are all uruk hai and no they are not threatening.They don't really bring anything that we have not seen before nor they do it an interesting way.One of the things I liked in anime was one of roshi's fights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axRwM7DAszQ
Sure it isn't perfect,but it brings something new.A unique fighter that fits with theme going on in it's universe and highlights roshi experience and wisdom.

There doesn't seem to be any trolls,those big elephants,spiders etc just uruk hai and saruman,sauron etc.The only reason I am not complaining that much is because I have already talked about it numerous times and it seems that toyotaro has to start broly by the next month.
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Ganos:I wanted to play a slightly larger role.
We are also getting more information about top participants in the next volume.
prince212 wrote:Looks like we are gonna have more information about t.o.p participants. Good :thumbup:

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All of this tells me some characters would not be disposable if manga was weekly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:05 am

Green_Goblin wrote:Majora - Was served to give Krillin and Android 18 an option for a "married couple team up to victory over a stronger opponent".
That was Shosa not Majora. Majora was the blind fox that was defeated by Krillin's dirty tactics.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Raphael_Z » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:44 am

Noah wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote:I was so disappointed that we didn't saw all the contestants' eliminations in the Tournament of Power. Here is how I would have depict it:
[spoiler]Dr. Rota - Could've been eliminated by Katopesla (at least he'll be good in doing something) before he's able to demonstrate his special ability.
Narirama - Could've been taken out by Hit and Cabba (instead of Basil who's erased by this point).
Viara - Could've been taken out by Shosa and Majora using a tactic (instead of Andorids 17 and 18 just spamming ki blasts at him till he "had enough" and defuncts).
Majora - Will be going down with Viara, as his and Shosa's combined strength are not enough and requires a "sacrifice" to pull the robot out.
Monna - Could've been taken out by SSJ Caulifla and Botamo.
Caway - Could've been eliminated by Dr. Paparoni.
Vikal - Could've been eliminated by Maji-Kayo.
Lilibeu - Could've been elminated by Kunshi.
Hermila - Could've been eliminated by Kahseral.
Nigrisshi - Could've avoided fighting LSSJ Kale by attacking Gohan who'll stomp him off.[/spoiler]
It could been better, I agree. But as I said on other thread: the fault of viewers not caring about anyone in this arc besides U6, U7 and U11 is on the script. I would enjoy if these characters were proper developed and not just be random nobodies that are just there to be wasted, for this tournament stakes a lot of thing could've been better.
Who did readers' care about during the Buu Saga tournament? The Z Fighters + Kaioshin or about everyone including Babidi's fodder and the Battle Royale fodder?

Who did reader's care about during the EoZ tournament? The Z Fighters + Uub or about everyone including the fodder that Kid Pan one-shotted?

Tournament fodder is always there to be wasted and the ToP is no exception. Only SOME of the fighters from U6 and U11 matter (plus the Z Fighters). The rest was always meant to be fodder/gag characters.

If anything, the anime wasted WAY TOO MANY episodes focusing on fodder vs. fodder fights and giving irrelevant characters like Krillin and Tien their "moments to shine". Those episodes could've been used to fully flesh out Jiren/Toppo/Dyspo's personalities and backstory but no, the anime decided to waste those episodes on fodder.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:56 am

Raphael_Z wrote:Who did readers' care about during the Buu Saga tournament? The Z Fighters + Kaioshin or about everyone including Babidi's fodder and the Battle Royale fodder? Who did reader's care about during the EoZ tournament? The Z Fighters + Uub or about everyone including the fodder that Kid Pan one-shotted? Tournament fodder is always there to be wasted and the ToP is no exception. Only SOME of the fighters from U6 and U11 matter (plus the Z Fighters). The rest was always meant to be fodder/gag characters.
Uh, so you're comparing local Tournaments which the prize is money to a Battle Royale where a bunch of people fight for their sole survival?

Seems you missed my point, my gripe is about the arc in general: introducing a lot of characters to do nothing with them, we're talking about lifes and universes being erased here, in both medias is treated like a game which few share sympathy to the wasted ones.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:23 am

Noah wrote:
Raphael_Z wrote:Who did readers' care about during the Buu Saga tournament? The Z Fighters + Kaioshin or about everyone including Babidi's fodder and the Battle Royale fodder? Who did reader's care about during the EoZ tournament? The Z Fighters + Uub or about everyone including the fodder that Kid Pan one-shotted? Tournament fodder is always there to be wasted and the ToP is no exception. Only SOME of the fighters from U6 and U11 matter (plus the Z Fighters). The rest was always meant to be fodder/gag characters.
Uh, so you're comparing local Tournaments which the prize is money to a Battle Royale where a bunch of people fight for their sole survival?

Seems you missed my point, my gripe is about the arc in general: introducing a lot of characters to do nothing with them, we're talking about lifes and universes being erased here, in both medias is treated like a game which few share sympathy to the wasted ones.
Fair enough. While both versions certainly share that problem, I think the Manga does a far better job of making some of these characters more likable. I really, really despise the anime version, and the moments that do work are completely overshadowed by how sloppy the storytelling is. The manga is working with shit, and somehow making it readable.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:53 pm

My Thoughts on Ch 39.

The biggest gripe I had with the chapter was that Gohan and Kefla got off paneled. I think half - 2/3 of the chapter should have been on them. Focusing on their interactions and showcasing how strong gohan was at the start of the battle and his rapid growth. I didn't really mind the Roshi vs Jiren brief spar, Jiren clearly has to hold back in order to avoid killing the old man, roshi then shows off some cool martial arts abilities that temporarily allow him to survive but in the end he gets one shotted out. I very much disliked how UIO form came to be, wasn't a fan of the genki dama in the anime either. I wish goku had broken his limits trying to survive a power impact from jiren. I would have ended the chapter with Omen Goku staring off with Jiren , wasn't a big fan of it running out before a single punch could be thrown.
I'm glad toyotaro used the whole saiyan improvement ability on gohan , he didn't get any of that in the actual ToP in the anime version unlike the other 5 saiyans who were present.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Green_Goblin » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:30 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
Green_Goblin wrote:Majora - Was served to give Krillin and Android 18 an option for a "married couple team up to victory over a stronger opponent".
That was Shosa not Majora. Majora was the blind fox that was defeated by Krillin's dirty tactics.
Both Android 18 and Krillin had traded blows with Majora. Here is how it should've been phrased:

Dr. Rota - A comic-relief character with an allegedly Medical-special ability that entitled him a "Doctor". Mostly created to be the next meme of the community.
Narirama - Was one of Universe 3's trump cards only to be taken out early in the Tournament, by the combined force of Hit and Basil. Well, mostly Hit who was the strongest rival of Goku by this point in the franchise.
Viara - Was used to give Andorids 17 and 18 a "siblings moment" and to demonstrate their infinite energy supply.
Majora - Was served to give Krillin and Android 18 an option for a "married couple team up to victory over a stronger opponent". Also was used as a "call-back" to the Krillin vs. Bacterian gag fight.
Monna - Was used to be Cabba's kick-off to Super Saiyan 2.
Caway - Was used to hype Roshi's achievements of winning against "multiversal level fighters" despite being weaker than them. And as his next sexual harrasment victim.
Vikal - Was used to demonstrate the high social rank/status of the Magical Girls/Kamikaze Fireballs in Universe 2.
Lilibeu - Was used to demonstrate that if one snooze it, she/he'll lose it in this kind of a battle royale.
Hermila - Was the "tactical villain" of Tien's elimination episode. He was responsible of being a major mysterious threat for most of the fighters in the arena despite being weaker than most of them.
Nigrisshi - Was misused. Was supposed to be one of Universe 3 top dogs, but was taken out by a single kick from BASE Cabba for some bizzare reason. The biggest disappointement of the ToP for me.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:09 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:My Thoughts on Ch 39.

The biggest gripe I had with the chapter was that Gohan and Kefla got off paneled. I think half - 2/3 of the chapter should have been on them. Focusing on their interactions and showcasing how strong gohan was at the start of the battle and his rapid growth. I didn't really mind the Roshi vs Jiren brief spar, Jiren clearly has to hold back in order to avoid killing the old man, roshi then shows off some cool martial arts abilities that temporarily allow him to survive but in the end he gets one shotted out. I very much disliked how UIO form came to be, wasn't a fan of the genki dama in the anime either. I wish goku had broken his limits trying to survive a power impact from jiren. I would have ended the chapter with Omen Goku staring off with Jiren , wasn't a big fan of it running out before a single punch could be thrown.
I'm glad toyotaro used the whole saiyan improvement ability on gohan , he didn't get any of that in the actual ToP in the anime version unlike the other 5 saiyans who were present.
I agree that Toyo should have spent more time on Gohan vs Kefla. The obvious solution would have been...

Chapter 37: 1/2 Frieza vs U6 Saiyans, 1/2 Kale going berserk.

Chapter 38: 1/2 Kale vs Pride Troopers, 1/2 Kefla wrecking u11 and fighting Gohan.

Chapter 39: Exactly the same.

I think Chapter 39 was supposed to show what was happening with all of the main fights. Goku was getting more and more desperate as he failed to do any kind of meaningful damage to Jiren. Toppo and Vegeta were starting to get seriously battle damaged. Gohan and Kefla were completely evenly matched. This would have worked if the beginning of Gohan vs Kefla was shown at all.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Analytical Delusion » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:18 pm

I'm pleasantly surprised we got to see UI Omen. Hope we see it again before the complete version, looks great.

Open questions for whoever wants to answer:

1) How many more chapters left to wrap up this arc (including wish/epilogue)?
2) Do you think the manga will include Vegeta's Blue Evolution form?
3) Do you think the manga will include Toppo's God form?

Any other predictions would be welcome too.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:24 pm

Analytical Delusion wrote:I'm pleasantly surprised we got to see UI Omen. Hope we see it again before the complete version, looks great.

Open questions for whoever wants to answer:

1) How many more chapters left to wrap up this arc (including wish/epilogue)?
2) Do you think the manga will include Vegeta's Blue Evolution form?
3) Do you think the manga will include Toppo's God form?

Any other predictions would be welcome too.
1) 2 more chapters for this arc to finish up

2 and 3 ) I don't think SSBE and GoD Form will be in the manga, Toppo and Vegeta are evenly matched for the most part as is, don't see what a new form would really accomplish story wise in this scenario. GoD i believe was an anime exclusive form and it worked for that story cause Toppo got messed up by 17 and Freeza and needed a higher power. SSBE as we know from Megumi Ishitani was an anime original form. It was intended to close the kaioken gap. I think Vegeta will just end up beating Toppo in a slugfest.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:39 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Again, you're missing the point entirely. The point is that Roshi is over 300 years old and has only been practicing martial arts.
And yet Goku surpasses Roshi's master arts experience and knowledge in 1/50th that time.
shadowfox87 wrote:The manga went out of its way to remind you all of the direct quotes from Goku's masters about movement. The DB manga has always been about martial arts
It also goes out his way to show you Goku either mastering or exceeding said said martial arts skills.
shadowfox87 wrote:Movement is part of this. Regardless of how talented Goku may be in terms of fighting, he is not perfect.
And yet the story says he is numerous times. Toyotaro's writing is bad here for the simple fact he takes the same approach Toriyama takes, 1 step forward and two steps backwards regression to show progression.
shadowfox87 wrote:Since you want me to do your homework for you, I will. I've told you repeatedly that Goku beat Tao Pai Pai not just because of increased strength or speed, but because of movement that he learned from Korin.
You literally proved my point, Goku shrugged off all of Tao's attacks and proceeds to beat the crap out of him with superior speed and strength that's too much for Tao to handle, the end. None of that takes fighting skills when you're oppenent is inferior to you.
shadowfox87 wrote:Then you haven't read enough Chinese novels or watched enough wuxia. In all cases, the main character starts off talentless, learns some moves from their masters, then surpasses those masters and learns new things from new masters.
I read and seen enough from that genre, the difference is they are not as poorly written as Dragon Ball as far as coherence in the protaganists fighting prowess for the narrative is concerned. Again, Goku being flawed is one thing, the problem is regressing a character to a previous state to repeat lessons he already learned/mastered/improved on. That's not progression, that's going in a circles, the sign of incompetent writing.
shadowfox87 wrote:I too want a story that is internally consistent. However, no story is perfect and without flaws. The author will make mistakes. We use headcanon where we can to explain some mistakes.
I didn't say anything about wanting a perfect or flawless story, I'm saying don't go in circles for fake progression due to lacking creativity, be internally coherent with the narrative, not nonsensical just because you hit writer's block.
shadowfox87 wrote:So even after you're given the official power levels stating they are equal, you refuse to believe it because you want to believe that the person with the higher power level always wins and that technique is not important.
I don't take secondary sources that contradict the primary source material.
shadowfox87 wrote:So here, I did the homework again for you, Chapter 132, Goku vs Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan uses 4 arms against Goku and Goku in response moves his arms fast as if they were 8 arms.
Wow, just wow, you post examples of Goku moving twice as fast as Tenshinhan and walking the dog all over him as an example of equal power level?
shadowfox87 wrote:Tenshinhan is surprised and commends Goku that he is a remarkable boy. He goes on to say that when he goes head-to-head versus Goku, he's always at a disadvantage. Gee I wonder why? You're going to say that it's because Goku is superior in 'power level'. I'm going to say it is because of better technique. Tenshinhan however not once stated that Goku is superior in power.
Read between the lines, Goku is shown faster and stronger than Tien who gets shutdown at every turn, anything Tien does Goku does simply better.
shadowfox87 wrote:Then Tenshinhan plans to use the Kihoho, which has enough destructive power to kill Goku and destroy the ring. He doesn't want to kill Goku though and tells him to dodge. By dodging it, Goku would get ring out. None of this implies that Tenshinhan is weaker than Goku, but that he's trying another strategy.
Tien uses the Kikoho because he's all out options, he lacks the speed, strength, and fighting skills to compete with Goku or force him out so he has to rely on a pure power move for.a ring out.
shadowfox87 wrote:Could he have faced Goku head-on? Maybe.
Doing your homework for you, no, by Tien's own admission he opted not to take Goku head-on as he was too much for him.
shadowfox87 wrote:But if there's a better strategy that can secure him the win, then why not use it? If this was a real fight with no ring, Tenshinhan already has enough destructive power to kill Goku.
Because he's desperate to win, using a move that generates a higher power level defeats your argument of "fighting skills totally matter many".
shadowfox87 wrote:Even with Tenshinhan depleted of his energy after using the Kihoho, he can still deflect and/or absorb Goku's Super Kamehameha in the air. Goku has no choice but to fire the Kamehameha backwards to propel himself and hit Tenshinhan. If this is not strategy, I'm not sure what it is. If you think that this entire fight was just some brawl without any technique, you are definitely not watching the same show I am.
All I saw was Goku use his Kamehameha to propel himself (a simple and basic move Roshi and Goku have used before) at a level of speed and strength too much for Tien to handle as he knocks him clean out with a headbutt.
shadowfox87 wrote:We're back to you believing that technique doesn't matter and that people just punch the crap out of each other in Dragon Ball.
No, I just don't believe in your rose tinted/revisionist version of DB.
shadowfox87 wrote:Power gaps in Dragon Ball were much smaller than they were in DBZ. Kami had a power level of 220 as per the Weekly Shonen Jump, the magazine in which the Dragon Ball manga was published (Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/list/).
I couldn't careless about flawed secondary sources that contradict the manga.
shadowfox87 wrote:This was an old Kami. King Piccolo with his youth restored had a battle power of 260, higher than Kami. You thought that '260' referred to old Piccolo. This is incorrect.
So this is what talking to a brick wall feels like... yeah, no, Kami is far stronger than young Demon King Piccolo, old Piccolo utterly wrecked Goku with less than half his battle power and the Goku that killed Demon Piccolo was called utter weak thrash in comparison to Mr. Popo who stated Kami is way stronger than him.

This should be clear when Kami finger flick Goku's full force punch like he wad a mere fly with ease. Those pl make zero sense when you realize Tien matched weighted clothing Goku during the 23rd Budokai that was stated far stronger than he was against demon Piccolo (260), yet Tien is weaker at 250 at the beginning of Z? So much for lolworthy power levels that heavily contradict the source material.
shadowfox87 wrote:Goku beat Piccolo by doing exactly what you just said. He used the Kamehameha to propel him and used all the ki in his fists to punch a hole through Piccolo. This again, is not because Goku had a higher battle power than King Piccolo.
It is, a heavily wounded Goku in a direct clash of might against Demon Piccolo completely broke through his defenses and punched a giant gaping hole through him as if he was made out of toilet tissue. The same kind of power he used to demon Piccolo had zero effect on the much stronger Mr. Popo and Kami.
shadowfox87 wrote:It's the same way as if someone got hit by a Kienzan from a fighter that is weaker. A Kienzan has the ki concentrated into a sharp point so that it can cut.
Not the same, the kienzan ignores power level differences, Goku merely concentrated all his remaining power into his fist to oneshot demon Piccolo.
shadowfox87 wrote:I'll say it again. The power gap in Dragon Ball is much smaller than in DBZ and that is a fact.
Again, you can say it as much as you want, you would still be dead wrong as that's not the point, huge gaps in power as in one-shotting the weaker character still existed in DB.
shadowfox87 wrote:It's a fact because you prove it mathematically. Even though I said DB, you go on to mention opponents in DBZ...?? Everyone in DB had a battle power of less than 1000. The gap therefore, is not "huge". A gap between Freeza (120 million) and Goku initially (3 million) is a lot more than any gap in DB. The gap between Goku (90,000) and Ginyu (120k) is nothing. Raditz, Nappa, Dodoria, Zarbon, all of them not a huge gap. I'm talking about HUGE gaps where Goku had to use power to overcome his foes like turning into a Super Saiyan.
Oh really now? You make this way to easy, its clear you have zero idea what gaps/difference means between characters are you are terribly off the mark. Since you like to like to use numbers so much lets do some basic observation.

Raditz with a pl slightly over a Saibaimen (1200) vs angry Gohan's headbutt (1307) and Piccolo's attack (1330). That is a gap of 8.916% and 10.83% which is enough to 1-2 shot Raditz. Saibaimen (1200) vs Tien (1830), a 52.5% gap in power, Tien wins with a single elbow.

Piccolo (3.5k) vs Nappa (4k), a 14.285% gap in power. Nappa literally oneshots Piccolo with a single elbow. Gihan at 981 can't see the movements of a saibaimen at 1.2k fighting Yamcha with his eyes, that's a gap of 22.324%, Vegeta (playing around at 18k) is shown and stated too much for Kaioken Goku (16k), that's a gap of 12.5%, Vegeta (24k) effortlessly toys with and oneshots Kiwi (18k) I'm a single blow, a gap of 33.333%.

Vegeta (24k) is too fast and strong for Dodoria (22k) to handle and oneshot kills him in a single blow, that's a gap of 9%, Vegeta (24k) vs Zarbon (23k) ends up with Zarbon getting utterly humilated by Vegeta, a gap of 4.347%. Monster Zarbon (under 30k) beats the crap out of Vegeta (24k), a gap less than 25%.

Gohan and Kuririn at 1.5k oneshot Freeza's men that laugh off pl at 1k, a gap of 50%, Vegeta (30k) vs Recoome (under 60k per Ginyu's estimate), a gap less than 100%, Goku (90k) easily toys with Jeice, Burter (two-shots), and Recoome (one-shots) who are under 60k, that's a gap over 50%.

Ginyu (120k) vs Goku (90k), Ginyu can break Goku in half once he has his hands around him, a gap of 33.333% (equal to the gap between Vegeta's 24k vs Kiwi's 18k), Goku's Kaioken (180k) vs Ginyu's (120k), gap 33.333%, Freeza (120 million) vs SSJ Goku (150 million), gap of 25%.

Now, lets compare these to the gaps in original DB.

Tien (180) vs Roshi (139), a gap of 29.496%, Goku (180) vs. Old Piccolo (under 260 even though he's over twice Goku's level in the source material), a gap less than 44.444%, Goku (260) vs Drum (above Tien at 180) equals Drum oneshot killed with a gap less than 44.444% between them.

Weighted clothing Goku (far above 260) vs Chichi (130) during 23rd Budokai, she's oneshotted with a gap way over 2-fold between them.Roshi (139) vs Crane (120), a gap of 15.833%, cyborg Tao (210) vs Ten (less than 260) equals Tao utterly oneshotted with gap of less than 23.8%

As you can see most of the gaps in original DB are higher than most the gaps in Z.
shadowfox87 wrote:Technique is useless if you don't have sufficient power and speed. Of course. I never said it isn't. The whole point of DBZ was for Goku to overcome power gaps to beat Freeza, Cell, and Buu because he needed power. That isn't the point here.
No, your poor and lack of argument was that power gaps that made fighting skills worthless didn't exist in DB (which they do).
shadowfox87 wrote:The point is, that technique is also a VERY important factor in a fight.
Only when fighters are close in level (which is what I've been stating repeatedly the whole time that you constantly ignore).
shadowfox87 wrote:You and I have made a bet. I bet that he will not surpass Jiren in power in this fight. Whis himself said that the wall that Goku must break is not power. The only way for him to surpass his limits now is through UI or mastery of self-movement and this will NOT be worthless even if Goku has less power and speed than Jiren.
Not quite, if you are game I bet you $100.00 Goku will simply become faster and stronger when he uses UI against Jiren while you say that UI will not give a boost.
shadowfox87 wrote:This is anticipation and predicting movements. The entire premise of this show is not power and speed.
You do realize Jiren was holding back and simply raised his power level to easily oneshot "not UI" Roshi right.
shadowfox87 wrote:If it is, I'm not even sure why you even watch this show given that you think that Toriyama is a terrible writer.
Don't put words I never said in my mouth, I said Toriyama is an incompetent writer when it comes to progression/growth which he constantly goes in circles with his characters which is true, not that he's a terrible writer in general, its called constructive criticism, perhaps you have heard of it?
shadowfox87 wrote:And again, that is the whole point of the story. Yes, he's been trying to do that since day 1, that is THE point!
Not trying to, already did.
shadowfox87 wrote:Goku is still evolving and just because he's been doing that since day 1, it doesn't mean he's reached the end.
Yes, Goku is evolving his power level as a fighter, he peaked as a martial artist with Mr. Popo and Kami, Toriyama fooling you with his circular progression doesn't change that.
shadowfox87 wrote:Again, he met opponents in DBZ where he had to overcome the power gap. He did so and continued to do so.
*sighs*

My issue with you is that this existed in DB as well, you are letting your nostalgia blind you with a rose tinted version of DB that never existed.
shadowfox87 wrote:However, he can't this time with Jiren. He simply cannot overcome the power gap with Jiren and hence, the only way to break the wall is through UI. Goku directly showed you in the manga of him trying to power up and break his limit. Whis directly stated that is not the correct way to break the wall.
Watch this be hilariously and predictably contradicted when Goku raises his power level with white hair UI to compete against Jiren.
shadowfox87 wrote:It seems I'm repeating myself over and over. Again, if the power gap is tremendously large, no matter what technique you have, it may not work. However, we've seen that characters who are significantly weaker still win against those that are stronger via technique. Ginyu uses the Body Change technique. Akuuman can explode the heart of any fighter with evil.
Those are not fighting skills/techniques, those are gimmicks (similar to the kienzan) that ignore power level differences, not an example of a significantly weaker fighter beating a significantly stronger fighrer with "fighting skills" like you claimed.
shadowfox87 wrote:Missing the point again. SSJ Grade 3 Trunks never beat Perfect Cell. That is the point. He had greater power but lacked speed.
I'm not missing the point, you're just using terrible examples. SSG3 Trunks lacked the speed to beat a highly suppressed, even if his speed matched proportionally to his strengt Cell would simply raise his power level and casually wreck Trunks like he did SSG2 Vegeta.
shadowfox87 wrote:Raditz was defeated by two fighters that were weaker than him. He was defeated by their coordination.
Wrong, Raditz was beaten by Angry Gohan who had a higher power level than him, then he was held in place by a severely beaten, wounded, and exhausted Goku for Piccolo to oneshot kill them with that attack that was higher than Fresh Raditz, don't twist what actually happened.
shadowfox87 wrote:Kid Buu vs South Kaioshin is not a non-sensical anime filler.
I couldn't careless about nonsensical anime filler.
shadowfox87 wrote:It's in the manga! East Kaioshin directly states that North and West were killed by Buu. Then South Kaioshin put up the greatest fight but was absorbed.
lol, Shin never stated South Kaioshin put up the greatest fight, he stated he was the strongest of them and got absorbed by Buu, everything else you made up and never took place in the manga.
shadowfox87 wrote:Lol, and now you say that DBS is trying to "pretend" the rules of DB are different than before. They are trying to write a story where it's not just about screaming, transformations, and power-ups.
Then write a completely different series, not insult the audience's intelligence by trying to poorly and retroactively change the internal mechanics of the series with laughable writing. If you don't like it, then write your own story.
shadowfox87 wrote:We are back to the exact same subject that I already answered before.
Not, we are back at the same subject you failed to overcome, repeatedly.
shadowfox87 wrote:You can mathematically cannot disprove that there are smaller power gaps in DB compared to DBZ. You simply cannot. Prove it if you can.
I already did by comparing direct power differences between fighters in original DB to Z, huge gaps existed in DB too, you're simply wrong or are just too stubborn to admit it.
shadowfox87 wrote:All power levels in DB are below 1000. The power gaps in DBZ are immensely large and Freeza was the first opponent to give this large power gap. This is not "dishonest, false, and ignorant", but actual fact that can be proven via mathematics.
Again, all you've shown me is that you have zero idea what differences/gaps in power between characters is to the point elementary math eludes you. Like I said before, that's being intellectually dishonest, false, and just plain ignorant.
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Bergamo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:00 am

@lord turbo

Martial arts skill =/= Martial arts experience
Just because Goku is better than Roshi at fighting doesn't mean he automatically knows all of the same techniques. Do you really think Goku could do hypnosis at a moments notice?
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:12 am

Oh, look it's lord turbo, back again, replying to my post weeks later. I guess I'll wait another 3 weeks for you to reply again. You don't need to read all of it. Just read the part in blue.
lord turbo wrote:And yet Goku surpasses Roshi's master arts experience and knowledge in 1/50th that time.
Of course Goku surpasses Roshi's martial arts. He's the main character. He learned the Kamehameha when it took Roshi 50 years. This is STILL consistent. Roshi watches Roshi once and he's able to replicate the movement. People are having a problem with Goku learning UI when Hakaishin after millions of years, could not. Yet, these principles of martial arts, are in Goku's mind since the beginning of DB.
lord turbo wrote:It also goes out his way to show you Goku either mastering or exceeding said said martial arts skills.
It goes to remind you (since you forgot), that Goku had several masters that focused on "movement". Goku at some point, learned all of it, and Goku basically had a "Eureka" moment. Roshi asked Goku, "What does strength mean to you?" Is it power? Is that what Vegeta and Freeza taught you? Goku tried to overcome Jiren in power and FAILED. Whis said that is also NOT the way to overcome his wall. Then, Roshi showed him there's more than one way to fight an opponent. That was the point. This is what martial arts is. Otherwise, just go to the gym and workout. Forget about martial arts.
lord turbo wrote:You literally proved my point, Goku shrugged off all of Tao's attacks and proceeds to beat the crap out of him with superior speed and strength that's too much for Tao to handle, the end. None of that takes fighting skills when you're oppenent is inferior to you.
Even after finding the manga chapters, showing you that Goku reading Tao's movements matter, you still fail to understand. It's literally right in front of your yes. Strength is always a component, but so is movement. If you can't understand that, then there's no point discussing this farther
lord turbo wrote:Wow, just wow, you post examples of Goku moving twice as fast as Tenshinhan and walking the dog all over him as an example of equal power level?
You have a warped idea of 'power' in your head. Speed and power are not always equal. Battle power is measured by ki. I had already quoted Toriyama's interview before. In the word of Dragon Ball, the body has physical limitations. Hence, the only way to raise power is through ki. Just by raising ki however, doesn't proportionally raise power and speed also. You can have higher speed with lower ki or vice versa. Trunks Super Saiyan Grade 3 is a prime example of this. Goku showed he had superior speed to Tenshinhan. He beat Tenshinhan's technique. If Goku is superior in power, then why can Tenshinhan tank Goku's most powerful Super Kamehameha? They are equal, both of them can tank each other's Kamehameha. Yet, Tenshinhan's Kihoho still has more destructive power and can kill Goku why? Same reason I told you before. Techniques matter. Mutaito invented the Kikoho a long time ago and Shen learned it, who taught Tenshinhan. It uses vital energy and hence, it can trump Goku.
lord turbo wrote:All I saw was Goku use his Kamehameha to propel himself (a simple and basic move Roshi and Goku have used before) at a level of speed and strength too much for Tien to handle as he knocks him clean out with a headbutt.
Yea... "simple and basic move". Propelling yourself using a Kamehameha to hit Tenshinhan took everyone by surprise. Goku and Tenshinhan were both dropping but Tenshinhan had Bukujutsu. Goku had no options left and it was implied he was going to shoot it at Tenshinhan. This time, Goku didn't use the Kamehameha to prevent a ring out. He used the propelling force to launch him towards Tenshinhan. This is called strategy.
lord turbo wrote:No, I just don't believe in your rose tinted/revisionist version of DB.
Yes, so you prefer your black tinted version where DB is all about power, transformations, screaming and people beating the crap out of each other. Who cares about technique? This ain't Naruto right?
lord turbo wrote:This should be clear when Kami finger flick Goku's full force punch like he wad a mere fly with ease. Those pl make zero sense when you realize Tien matched weighted clothing Goku during the 23rd Budokai that was stated far stronger than he was against demon Piccolo (260), yet Tien is weaker at 250 at the beginning of Z? So much for lolworthy power levels that heavily contradict the source material.
Mutaito did the mafuba to trap Piccolo Daimou in the rice cooker for centuries. During that time, Kami was training when Piccolo Daimou was not. However, when they split, they were exactly the same battle power. Then, as they grew older, battle power also declined. Piccolo Daimou restored his youth and got a little stronger to 260. Kami, at this time, was not given an official power level in the Daizenshuu. Rather, his battle power was given at the time when Raditz arrived in DBZ, during the Saiyan saga. Hence, five years past since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. In that time, perhaps Kami did not train as he trusted Goku to protect the Earth, so his power declined. This same logic, is the same for Tenshinhan. It's unknown what he did during the 5-year gap. There was no motivation to train as there were no new threats or any tournaments. After Piccolo destroyed the entire stage, the 24th Tenkaichi Budokai wasn't held until 11 years later.
lord turbo wrote:It is, a heavily wounded Goku in a direct clash of might against Demon Piccolo completely broke through his defenses and punched a giant gaping hole through him as if he was made out of toilet tissue. The same kind of power he used to demon Piccolo had zero effect on the much stronger Mr. Popo and Kami.
Popo dodged that punch. He did not block it. Using a kamehameha to propel himself, will give him more momentum for that punch. This is just physics. So even if their battle powers are equal, Goku used all his ki to propel himself in one short burst against Piccolo. The punch he used against Kami was just a normal punch. The one he used against Popo was the punch that defeated Piccolo.
lord turbo wrote:Not the same, the kienzan ignores power level differences, Goku merely concentrated all his remaining power into his fist to oneshot demon Piccolo.
Kienzan doesn't ignore power level differences. There are times when even the Kienzan will not work. For example, Krillin threw a Kienzan at Perfect Cell's neck. Focusing all the ki into a sharp point or blade, is able to cut, most things. This is the case even if the person who made that Kienzan is much weaker. Eventually, power gap does catch up though. At the same time, it is understood why the Kienzan works. Why Krillin could cut off the tail of a 2nd form Freeza.
lord turbo wrote:Raditz with a pl slightly over a Saibaimen (1200) vs angry Gohan's headbutt (1307) and Piccolo's attack (1330). That is a gap of 8.916% and 10.83% which is enough to 1-2 shot Raditz. Saibaimen (1200) vs Tien (1830), a 52.5% gap in power, Tien wins with a single elbow.
It's because Raditz (1500) had a small power gap between Gohan's headbutt (1307), that some damage was done, enough to break Raditz armor at least. Piccolo's makkankosappo again, is an attack that pierces because its energy is focused. He missed the first time and the second time, his power was even greater. Of course Tenshinhan, with a 1.5x power gap would win against a Saibamen in a single blow.
lord turbo wrote:Gihan at 981 can't see the movements of a saibaimen at 1.2k fighting Yamcha with his eyes, that's a gap of 22.324%
What the heck does Gohan's battle power of 981 have anything to do with him following the movements of Yamcha vs Saibaman's fight? This again, is you assuming that higher battle power means they automatically can sense ki and move faster. Gohan following a fight with his eyes comes with battle experience. He has to train to do this. Fourth Form Freeza could not sense Goku's ki at the very start yet his battle power is over 3 million suppressed.
lord turbo wrote:As you can see most of the gaps in original DB are higher than most the gaps in Z.
You did a good job on this, so I'll commend you on it. :clap: However, what this shows is basically that the power gaps are inconsistent at times and "power" should not be the only basis for determining a fight, which has been the point of my argument from the start. There are many other aspects in a fight than just battle power. Relying on just power alone is the mistake that people made when using a scouter.

This also shows that some power gaps are higher in DBZ than DB and some in DB higher than DBZ. In fact, if you take the maximum power gap from what you listed in DBZ (52.5%) is greater than the maximum in DB (44.4%). It only shows that the gaps are not that reliable in determining how the fight will go, but more of a probability measure that the higher the gap, the more advantage the fighter with great power has.
lord turbo wrote:Not quite, if you are game I bet you $100.00 Goku will simply become faster and stronger when he uses UI against Jiren while you say that UI will not give a boost.
Faster maybe, Not stronger. The UI technique so far, in the manga is subconsciously dodging any attack. By doing so, Goku can avoid Jiren's attacks and keep hitting Jiren with his own attacks. Even if Goku's attacks are weaker, hitting the same place multiple times or hitting vital points, can do more damage. If a kid keeps punching you in the stomach a 100 times, you do feel it after a while. Without any conscious thoughts interfering with Goku's movements, he is faster in terms of reaction time. In terms of pure speed, Jiren would still be faster. A way to measure this would be to have UI Goku and Jiren race each other. The person who wins has higher pure speed. Whereas, a test for reaction time would be, where UI Goku and Jiren have to press a button when a light turns from red to green. The person who presses the button faster, has higher reaction time. So in these two cases, I'm saying Jiren wins the race but UI Goku presses the button faster. They are two completely different things. This is also why Flash, one of the fastest characters in the DC universe, would still lose a fight versus Slade who can predict where Flash will be, trip him, and win the fight.
lord turbo wrote:You do realize Jiren was holding back and simply raised his power level to easily oneshot "not UI" Roshi right.
Jiren didn't need to raise his power level. Roshi lasted for 2 seconds, surprising Jiren. Jiren did his best not to kill Roshi and karate chopped him. Jiren simply increased his speed. It's the same thing with Hit's Time Lag. The 'lag' simply delays Jiren's speed and makes him slower. He only needs to increase his speed to overcome the lag. Roshi in the end, was embarrassed but he hoped that he showed Goku something.
lord turbo wrote:Yes, Goku is evolving his power level as a fighter, he peaked as a martial artist with Mr. Popo and Kami, Toriyama fooling you with his circular progression doesn't change that.
Goku evolves, not just with a mere battle power. The battle power is a mode of measurement that is easy for the audience to gauge. However, Goku's skills are evolving as he learns new techniques as well. He is also gaining more wisdom and battle experience. All these things matter, not just a battle power.
lord turbo wrote:Watch this be hilariously and predictably contradicted when Goku raises his power level with white hair UI to compete against Jiren.
The anime showed this. We'll see if the manga does the same thing. If the manga does, then I'll admit defeat that they that the story isn't consistent and that UI is also a power-up not just a technique or state of mind.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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