"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:48 am

TheMikado wrote:
Draconic wrote:Are people really starting to shit on Toriyama and his manga for the sake of THIS garbage fire of a manga maybe looking a bit better? What the fuck?
Toriyama is world famous primarily for a very specific portion of his work, and not even his manga.
Specifically the Dragonball “Z” anime which as the user above you points out is primarily surrounding a VERY specific section of his work.

Let’s not act like Toriyama created his works in a vacuum and everything he touched was gold. I enjoy the original Dragonball run but it was nowhere as popular nor remembered. Toriyama really only has the level of world-wide recognition he has today primarily due to the “Z” anime.
Dragon Ball is the third highest selling manga ever and the Z-anime is it's adaptation, most of it's greatest moments being recreated shot by shot from his work. His manga also inspired a good chunck of modern Shonen mangakas, most rising up to success as well. Also, he worked closely with the anime staff anyway, to varying degrees, as that's well documented, beyond being the show's 'author' anyway.

It's fine to give Toriyama's editors the credit they deserve, it means they were great at their jobs. But the crafting of designing characters, writing dialogue and drawing intense action scenes for a weekly comic is no small feat, especially to the level of quality Dragon Ball presents.

To disociate Dragon Ball's success from Toriyama is incredibly stupid, as the charisma the franchise has is all due to his artistic sensibilities and fuck anyone who does it. I know it's hip to shit on Toriyama because - he didn't want his inker to fill in hair lulz he doesn't pay taxes ze sukker Minus iz abomination wah - but his work, talent and sleepless nights are seen on page.

And if you really want to go there as to present that as any kind of argument, this manga is only succesful because of the anime, anyway. There's 0 promotion for it, the volumes sell decent for what it is (but not spectacularly well) and nothing introduced in it makes it further than the page because no one outside of a handful of hardcores give a shit about it. But it's called Dragon Ball Super, so it has brand recognition and that's enough.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:43 am

Draconic wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Draconic wrote:Are people really starting to shit on Toriyama and his manga for the sake of THIS garbage fire of a manga maybe looking a bit better? What the fuck?
Toriyama is world famous primarily for a very specific portion of his work, and not even his manga.
Specifically the Dragonball “Z” anime which as the user above you points out is primarily surrounding a VERY specific section of his work.

Let’s not act like Toriyama created his works in a vacuum and everything he touched was gold. I enjoy the original Dragonball run but it was nowhere as popular nor remembered. Toriyama really only has the level of world-wide recognition he has today primarily due to the “Z” anime.
Dragon Ball is the third highest selling manga ever and the Z-anime is it's adaptation, most of it's greatest moments being recreated shot by shot from his work. His manga also inspired a good chunck of modern Shonen mangakas, most rising up to success as well. Also, he worked closely with the anime staff anyway, to varying degrees, as that's well documented, beyond being the show's 'author' anyway.

It's fine to give Toriyama's editors the credit they deserve, it means they were great at their jobs. But the crafting of designing characters, writing dialogue and drawing intense action scenes for a weekly comic is no small feat, especially to the level of quality Dragon Ball presents.

To disociate Dragon Ball's success from Toriyama is incredibly stupid, as the charisma the franchise has is all due to his artistic sensibilities and fuck anyone who does it. I know it's hip to shit on Toriyama because - he didn't want his inker to fill in hair lulz he doesn't pay taxes ze sukker Minus iz abomination wah - but his work, talent and sleepless nights are seen on page.

And if you really want to go there as to present that as any kind of argument, this manga is only succesful because of the anime, anyway. There's 0 promotion for it, the volumes sell decent for what it is (but not spectacularly well) and nothing introduced in it makes it further than the page because no one outside of a handful of hardcores give a shit about it. But it's called Dragon Ball Super, so it has brand recognition and that's enough.
There is no disassociation between Toriyama and Dragonball. Your argument is that because Dragonball is successful anything Toriyama touches will automatically be made better. There’s no evidence to support this, Toriyama has done many projects outside of the main Dragonball series but none have been the runaway success that Dragonball was. That’s the point. The original manga chapters pre-Saiyan while successfully and popular particularly in Japan are far away from being the most purchased internationally. Again in the entire body of Toriyamas work Dragonball and again a very specific aspect of it uniquely successful.

Attempting to imply Dragonballs success automatically equals Toriyamas success in any project is disingenuous and propping up the artist rather than the artwork, it’s not different than fashion brand names where because it carries a label there is some automatic high intrinsic value where there isn’t any or shouldn’t be attributed.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:25 am

Where the fuck did I imply that? You said Toriyama isn't successful because of the manga but because of the adaptation of the later half of his story, which is false and the original post was me bewildered at the length people go to defend the Super manga (which Toriyama is involved in and i still find shit).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:27 am

TheMikado wrote: There is no disassociation between Toriyama and Dragonball.
BrolySSJL wrote:Do not forget that Dragon Ball original manga is amazing not for Toriyama... it was for its editor: Yū Kondō. Of course Toriyama was pretty good with the development of the history, drawing,... but the real genious here was Yū Kondō.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:34 am

Draconic wrote:Where the fuck did I imply that? You said Toriyama isn't successful because of the manga but because of the adaptation of the later half of his story, which is false and the original post was me bewildered at the length people go to defend the Super manga (which Toriyama is involved in and i still find shit).
This is what I said which is true:

“Toriyama is world famous primarily for a very specific portion of his work, and not even his manga.
Specifically the Dragonball “Z” anime which as the user above you points out is primarily surrounding a VERY specific section of his work.

Let’s not act like Toriyama created his works in a vacuum and everything he touched was gold. I enjoy the original Dragonball run but it was nowhere as popular nor remembered. Toriyama really only has the level of world-wide recognition he has today primarily due to the “Z” anime.”

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:35 am

Simere wrote:
TheMikado wrote: There is no disassociation between Toriyama and Dragonball.
BrolySSJL wrote:Do not forget that Dragon Ball original manga is amazing not for Toriyama... it was for its editor: Yū Kondō. Of course Toriyama was pretty good with the development of the history, drawing,... but the real genious here was Yū Kondō.
I'm speaking for my post which he was replying to, not anyone else’s.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:47 am

TheMikado wrote:
Simere wrote:
TheMikado wrote: There is no disassociation between Toriyama and Dragonball.
BrolySSJL wrote:Do not forget that Dragon Ball original manga is amazing not for Toriyama... it was for its editor: Yū Kondō. Of course Toriyama was pretty good with the development of the history, drawing,... but the real genious here was Yū Kondō.
I'm speaking for my post which he was replying to, not anyone else’s.
He was replying to the post I quoted, then you responded to him with what's frankly non-sequitur. He's probably confused why you're making the conversation into something it wasn't.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:56 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
Rakurai wrote: Toriyama has been done with DB for a long time now, he's only getting pulled back cause corporate penny pinchers keep asking him to.
I wouldn’t say that. From the interviews I remember around BoG he basically forced himself in, and wanted DB to be portrayed how he believed it should. DB Evolution appears to have influenced his return, as that was a point of note around BoG. Toriyama definitely doesn’t like putting much work in, but he most definitely hasn’t been done with DB for a long time.

He even complained about the Super anime and said in that interview “so it seems that Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can’t leave it alone”. He definitely likes DB enough now, and has stated so.
"A long time now" might've been an exaggeration. The way he's been involved in the production of Super suggests to me that he wants to pass on the DB torch to somebody else, and phase himself out. He put in very little towards the anime and he's supervising Toyotaro on his story and art instead of helping him create the story.

His editors brought him in for the new Super movie and even suggested Broly, a highly popular icon in the DB franchise, as the main focus of it. If that's not penny-pinching, then I don't know what is.

His half-assed reasons for doing things pertaining to DB don't scream to me that he wants to actively create new stories. Lol, I'd be surprised if he even remembered half of the content he's put out back in the 90s. His new stories would probably contradict itself all the time or retcon shit.
Draconic wrote:Are people really starting to shit on Toriyama and his manga for the sake of THIS garbage fire of a manga maybe looking a bit better? What the fuck?
You may be misunderstanding me.

By DB manga he's released most recently, I meant DB Minus. Which in my eyes is a total abomination and a slap to a good story which was the Bardock special. No real good reason why it had to be done either.

Super manga is definitely better than that piece of garbage, though I am not pleased that it includes Minus in its continuity.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:10 am

Draconic wrote:Where the fuck did I imply that? You said Toriyama isn't successful because of the manga but because of the adaptation of the later half of his story, which is false and the original post was me bewildered at the length people go to defend the Super manga (which Toriyama is involved in and i still find shit).
The DB brand, and Toriyama by extent, is internationally successful because of the Z anime. That cannot be denied.

People remember Dragon Ball Z, not Dragon Ball (even though the original Japanese manga in its serialization was simply called Dragon Ball). Funimation and other international licensors started dubbing and airing with the DBZ part of the story. DB Kai started off with the Raditz saga, not with Goku meeting Bulma. Most of the merchandise and games put out today focus on the latter half of the story, Goku's adult life.

People don't remember Dragon Ball for Budokai Tenkaichis and searching for Dragon Balls across the desert, snowlands, and forests. They remember DB for Saiyans, Super Saiyans, power levels, and the shallow-constructed villains with no ears.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:29 am

Simere wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Simere wrote:
I'm speaking for my post which he was replying to, not anyone else’s.
He was replying to the post I quoted, then you responded to him with what's frankly non-sequitur. He's probably confused why you're making the conversation into something it wasn't.
What? How would you even know which post he was specifically referencing if he didn’t quote it. I can again speak directly because he quoted my post and there was a back and forth exchange, your inferring your point based on mind reading. It looks like his statement was a post to the forum thread and not at any particular person so I’m not sure how your connecting these makes sense. It doesn’t even follow the chronology order in which the conversation occurred. He didn’t bring up disassociation until he was directly quoting my posts so most people would assume that would be a criticism of the posts he quoting rather than picking out another post he didn’t directly reference.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:24 am

TheMikado wrote:I can again speak directly because he quoted my post and there was a back and forth exchange, your inferring your point based on mind reading. It looks like his statement was a post to the forum thread and not at any particular person so I’m not sure how your connecting these makes sense. It doesn’t even follow the chronology order in which the conversation occurred. He didn’t bring up disassociation until he was directly quoting my posts so most people would assume that would be a criticism of the posts he quoting rather than picking out another post he didn’t directly reference.
Yes, it was phrased towards the thread, but only two people had posted things that fit the criteria of his comment: Rakurai and BrolySSJL. He was maybe annoyed by Rakurai's comments, but BrolySSJL was specifically talking about the original manga, and his reply was right below. In his response to you he's fixated on BrolySSJL's editor argument, showing what really roused his ire. Meanwhile, in your responses to him you're saying his argument is everything Toriyama does is gold when he didn't say anything like that.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:24 am

Rakurai wrote:
Jaco isn't even on the same level of charm as DB, it's not even the same genre as DBZ. If you found it delightful and funny then great and I'm sorry for assuming, but it's more akin to Dr. Slump than DB, and I can say Dr. Slump is genuinely more funny than Jaco because I've read both. Dr. Slump doesn't hold a candle to DB let alone DBZ, which is the main product which has gained international popularity and is a huge commercial success. Not DB, not Dr. Slump and certainly not Jaco. Manga is both story and art, his modern art style wouldn't appeal to most fans and his stories are of the quality that leads to BoG, RoF, and DB Minus nowadays, barring Broly since it is yet to be released. Again, these stories are decent at best if only because of Toei's involvement and the only DB manga story he's released and made alone most recently is frankly shit.

DB Minus is an abomination and I do not exaggerate. It was pointless and ruins a good story that was the original Bardock TV special. It shows nothing new or special about the Saiyans, contradicts the original manga, makes Goku's kind and gentle personality less interesting cause of Gine and soft Bardock, and the tie in to Jaco had zero relevance, hell Grandpa Gohan's appearance in Jaco was irrelevant and nothing but a cameo. The only reason I can see it being made was so it could make Jaco sell better given it has the DB brand and people will gobble DB shit up. Hell Jaco itself contradicts the original manga since Bulma finished up university whereas Bulma met Goku while she was on summer break before going back to school.

So yes I firmly believe Toriyama himself wouldn't make the story better, only worse due to his modern art style which is not fit for DB and his storyboarding which isn't any more interesting or appealing than the DBAF fanfiction I've read from Toyble or even YoungJiJi. Toriyama has been done with DB for a long time now, he's only getting pulled back cause corporate penny pinchers keep asking him to.
Are we discussing Mr. Toriyama writing a manga or an anime he didn't made? Because yes DBZ is based on the Dragon Ball manga but he didn't made it.

Also commercial success it's the same as quality. Super is the best example we can give, it's making all it's holders tons of money while it's a very poor product for the most part.

The evolution of his style has always been present, his characters used to be much more chubby to point out the most obvious. Had Mr.Toriyama never stopped drawing Dragon Ball this is how the characters would look now, it's a very weird commentary to make. Specially when you're talking about DBZ which had various animators, it's style floating around from episode to episode.

If you believe that, sure I respect that agreeing or not. But then make sure to respect my opinion and not quote me starting with "no I suspect you wouldn't". Both of us can't be proved wrong or right, there's really nothing else to say.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hawk9211 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:53 am

BrolySSJL wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:
BrolySSJL wrote:Do not forget that Dragon Ball original manga is amazing not for Toriyama... it was for its editor: Yū Kondō. Of course Toriyama was pretty good with the development of the history, drawing,... but the real genious here was Yū Kondō. He had the following ideas:

-Saiyans
-The super saiyan
-Raditz and Gohan
-Ozaru Vegeta
-Space travels
-The comeback of the Red Ribbon.
...

Kondō was the editor of Toriyama between the beggining of Piccolo Daimaoh and the ending of the Cell arc. The best part of the entire DB franchiste. It's not coincidence.
Oh,look another post filled with ignorance and baseless assumptions.Torishima was his editor till 23 world tournament,kondō over took in Saiyan saga.Some of these ideas are confirmed to be from toriyama.
Any sources?

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Y%C5%AB_Kond%C5%8D
Dragon ball wiki is an abomination of site which puts english dub as it's own version,don't ever link that site for discussion.This site is the most reliable english site for interviews and other content like that.This site has nearly all of the interviews of pretty much everything dragon ball.Go to the main page and click the translation.Toriyama's best editor was torishima who is also known as the man behind the success of dragon ball.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:30 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Draconic wrote:Are people really starting to shit on Toriyama and his manga for the sake of THIS garbage fire of a manga maybe looking a bit better? What the fuck?
You may be misunderstanding me.

By DB manga he's released most recently, I meant DB Minus. Which in my eyes is a total abomination and a slap to a good story which was the Bardock special. No real good reason why it had to be done either.

Super manga is definitely better than that piece of garbage, though I am not pleased that it includes Minus in its continuity.
I guess that's fair. The pre-final chapter of the Zamasu arc is indeed better than Minus alone, not to mention it's other highlights.

Hell, I don't even agree with the notion the manga would be better if he was the one writing and drawing it. He's way too old to be able to put out something of high quality with ultimatums and such. Manga isn't an easy medium and it takes a toll even on the greatest, even in their prime.

What would be better is him actually providing fully detailed outlines, not the barebone ones of recent. Let the anime staff spice them up with some of their stuff, let Toyotaro spice them up with his and we'd probably get something greater than what we had till now.

But really, taking away his credit for actually creating, writing and drawing one of the most successful mangas of all time (which isn't his only success either, but that's another subject) is going waaay to far, no matter what you think of his modern output or him as a person.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:40 pm

Draconic wrote:Are people really starting to shit on Toriyama and his manga for the sake of THIS garbage fire of a manga maybe looking a bit better? What the fuck?
The quality and effort Toriyama put into his original manga is nothing short of amazing and inspiring which is why it's the face and influence of the modern manga era.
Draconic wrote:Dragon Ball is the third highest selling manga ever.
According to Wikipedia it's the second with 360 million copies followed by Naruto in the 3rd place with 235 million.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheMikado » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:30 pm

Simere wrote:
TheMikado wrote:I can again speak directly because he quoted my post and there was a back and forth exchange, your inferring your point based on mind reading. It looks like his statement was a post to the forum thread and not at any particular person so I’m not sure how your connecting these makes sense. It doesn’t even follow the chronology order in which the conversation occurred. He didn’t bring up disassociation until he was directly quoting my posts so most people would assume that would be a criticism of the posts he quoting rather than picking out another post he didn’t directly reference.
Yes, it was phrased towards the thread, but only two people had posted things that fit the criteria of his comment: Rakurai and BrolySSJL. He was maybe annoyed by Rakurai's comments, but BrolySSJL was specifically talking about the original manga, and his reply was right below. In his response to you he's fixated on BrolySSJL's editor argument, showing what really roused his ire. Meanwhile, in your responses to him you're saying his argument is everything Toriyama does is gold when he didn't say anything like that.
Again you’re attempting to mind read, you’re inferring that he was annoyed to begin with and then trying to direct it at a specific user.

As far as my response it was general statement of caution to not think Toriyama is beyond criticism. His specific comments were about the criticisms being levied again Toriyama and my response what that he isn’t above criticism and every thing he touches is a success. I wasn’t trying to refute anything other than to state that Toriyama isn’t infallible and that his involvement doesn’t automatically guarantee DB levels of success which is what the thread was currently discussing.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:43 pm

prince212 wrote:This corrections are really good , toriyama touch up is geniusly great , the final page was amazing, one of my favorites in t.o.p manga arc
Image
It must hurt all those who said Toriyama doesn't really check his story and contribute.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kudo6000 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:08 pm

Miracles wrote:It must hurt all those who said Toriyama doesn't really check his story and contribute.
Who's thought that? It's been a pretty well known fact that Toriyama provides contribution to Super, even to people who don't necessarily favor the manga.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:22 pm

kudo6000 wrote:
Miracles wrote:It must hurt all those who said Toriyama doesn't really check his story and contribute.
Who's thought that? It's been a pretty well known fact that Toriyama provides contribution to Super, even to people who don't necessarily favor the manga.
Many said so...Early on...

"Oh I bet Toriyama doesn't even read the scripts/storyboard, etc"
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:31 pm

Miracles wrote:
kudo6000 wrote:
Miracles wrote:It must hurt all those who said Toriyama doesn't really check his story and contribute.
Who's thought that? It's been a pretty well known fact that Toriyama provides contribution to Super, even to people who don't necessarily favor the manga.
Many said so...Early on...

"Oh I bet Toriyama doesn't even read the scripts/storyboard, etc"
Internet was full of memes and gifs of toriyama reactions to manga chapter 39 jiren vs roshi 3 panels fight .
What happened in this community after some illegal spoilers came before viz released the chapter was ridiculously stupid, I’m glad some of the youtubers that made reviews before the chapter was officially translated now are having a bad time .
That serves them well .
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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