"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:19 pm

LightBing wrote:
Are we discussing Mr. Toriyama writing a manga or an anime he didn't made? Because yes DBZ is based on the Dragon Ball manga but he didn't made it.

Also commercial success it's the same as quality. Super is the best example we can give, it's making all it's holders tons of money while it's a very poor product for the most part.

The evolution of his style has always been present, his characters used to be much more chubby to point out the most obvious. Had Mr.Toriyama never stopped drawing Dragon Ball this is how the characters would look now, it's a very weird commentary to make. Specially when you're talking about DBZ which had various animators, it's style floating around from episode to episode.

If you believe that, sure I respect that agreeing or not. But then make sure to respect my opinion and not quote me starting with "no I suspect you wouldn't". Both of us can't be proved wrong or right, there's really nothing else to say.
Okay, fair enough. I did say I was sorry for assuming.

The evolution of his artstyle went from being very round and chubby as you put it to very chiseled and lean by the time of the Namek saga. There was a clear evolution of his artstyle, and that adopted in Jaco as well as most of his modern designs are only a regression. Now he could've been made to draw his characters that way back during serialization but at least the characters began looking better and more detailed. You don't have to look past his drawings of kid Goku to see this.

Chapter 29 Kid Goku

1996 Daizenshuu Kid Goku

DB Minus Goku

You can't tell me this is how he would've turned out had he continued Dragon Ball in the long run. The artstyle simply isn't consistent.

Yes I was referring to the Z portion of the manga in our discussion. People remember the Dragon Ball manga for Z too, not for the first half of the story. How many people can actually recall the events of the first part of Dragon Ball just as good if not better than DBZ? Most forums also focus on Z/GT/Super, whether it be manga or anime, not OG. But you're right, success =/= quality. Although we can leave DB Minus (and Jaco imo) out of either of those two categories.
Draconic wrote: I guess that's fair. The pre-final chapter of the Zamasu arc is indeed better than Minus alone, not to mention it's other highlights.

Hell, I don't even agree with the notion the manga would be better if he was the one writing and drawing it. He's way too old to be able to put out something of high quality with ultimatums and such. Manga isn't an easy medium and it takes a toll even on the greatest, even in their prime.

What would be better is him actually providing fully detailed outlines, not the barebone ones of recent. Let the anime staff spice them up with some of their stuff, let Toyotaro spice them up with his and we'd probably get something greater than what we had till now.

But really, taking away his credit for actually creating, writing and drawing one of the most successful mangas of all time (which isn't his only success either, but that's another subject) is going waaay to far, no matter what you think of his modern output or him as a person.
I'm not taking him away from that. I just think that he should step down and let others continue his legacy while he provides advice and feedback to them. He is and will always be credited with the success of the DB manga and contributing several character designs for the anime, including films and GT, which I think are absolutely fantastic. But from his most recent stories it's clear he's run out of original ideas or at least hasn't taken his expanded multiverse anywhere interesting. I mean, with 12 universes, a parallel Saiyan planet, and a mortal who became stronger than a GoD, we're still getting Broly and possibly Gogeta.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:40 pm

Jesus Christ.

What is even going on in this thread? Now we're shitting on Akira Toriyama? The level of myopic you need to be to not see how this franchise is garbage without him is—I can't find words to describe it. Maybe getting Battle of Gods, whichever version of Super you like and Resurrection F has numbed you all to where this franchise was when AT divorced himself from it.

GT. Endless re-releases because nobody can come up with anything that sticks. Heroes scraping the bottom of the barrel. Random transformations thrown on random characters in lieu of development and actual story-crafting. Shitty characters emerging in video games and the like because AT isn't around to design.

That's where we're coming from. This franchise doesn't need Toriyama/Toriyama doesn't play a key role to its success? The years of 1995-2013 show that notion is ill-conceived at best and completely worthless at worst.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Simere » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:41 pm

TheMikado wrote: Again you’re attempting to mind read, you’re inferring that he was annoyed to begin with and then trying to direct it at a specific user.
Fine. I guess it's just a coincidence he keeps arguing against the idea of editors and taking credit away from Toriyama in making Dragon Ball what it is, while BrolySSJL was the only one doing that. I'll reign in my great leaps of logic in the future.
As far as my response it was general statement of caution to not think Toriyama is beyond criticism. His specific comments were about the criticisms being levied again Toriyama and my response what that he isn’t above criticism and every thing he touches is a success. I wasn’t trying to refute anything other than to state that Toriyama isn’t infallible and that his involvement doesn’t automatically guarantee DB levels of success which is what the thread was currently discussing.
It was specifically about criticizing Toriyama and his work on Dragon Ball in order to make Dragon Ball Super look better. This isn't a condemnation extended to all types of criticism, and says nothing about Toriyama having the Midas touch. If you were generally giving an unneeded cautionary warning, and not trying to specifically refute his argument, why were you quoting him and why did you say:
Your argument is that because Dragonball is successful anything Toriyama touches will automatically be made better.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:06 pm

Doctor. wrote:Would be better if Toriyama corrected more often, though.
It actually would be better if Torishima was still there to avoid the sh*t Toriyama/Toyotaro do with the storytelling.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:25 pm

I would guess that Toriyama's draft said something along the lines of "Gohan has comparable strength to Goku" and "Gohan seeks a different way to evolve his strength"

I hope that leads to greater relevance for Gohan going forward, even being 3rd fiddle is fine

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:36 pm

TKA wrote:Jesus Christ.

What is even going on in this thread? Now we're shitting on Akira Toriyama? The level of myopic you need to be to not see how this franchise is garbage without him is—I can't find words to describe it. Maybe getting Battle of Gods, whichever version of Super you like and Resurrection F has numbed you all to where this franchise was when AT divorced himself from it.

GT. Endless re-releases because nobody can come up with anything that sticks. Heroes scraping the bottom of the barrel. Random transformations thrown on random characters in lieu of development and actual story-crafting. Shitty characters emerging in video games and the like because AT isn't around to design.

That's where we're coming from. This franchise doesn't need Toriyama/Toriyama doesn't play a key role to its success? The years of 1995-2013 show that notion is ill-conceived at best and completely worthless at worst.
Nobody is shitting on Toriyama for his work on the original DB.

I am shitting on Toriyama for DB Minus, his modern art style that's not fit for DB continuations, and dull outline going into Super as well as into the upcoming film. Which is perfectly reasonable to do so.

GT? Arguably the same or better than the Super anime in terms of quality and consistency. It's just that nowadays, the fandom has this stigma of backing away from anything that's not originally designed or developed by Toriyama, labeling things as 'canon' or 'non-canon.' I've read DB fanfiction that is just as good as Super in many ways, but it'll never become as widely known or popular because it's not 'canon.'

Anyways. Moving on back to the manga. I hope that UI Goku (not Omen) isn't a strength-wise power-up, and Goku rather hits Jiren's weak spots or regions where his ki is least concentrated in for maximal effect. Something that doesn't involve requiring a ridiculous power-up as is expected to defeat a much stronger antagonist.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:44 pm

prince212 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
kudo6000 wrote:
Who's thought that? It's been a pretty well known fact that Toriyama provides contribution to Super, even to people who don't necessarily favor the manga.
Many said so...Early on...

"Oh I bet Toriyama doesn't even read the scripts/storyboard, etc"
Internet was full of memes and gifs of toriyama reactions to manga chapter 39 jiren vs roshi 3 panels fight .
What happened in this community after some illegal spoilers came before viz released the chapter was ridiculously stupid, I’m glad some of the youtubers that made reviews before the chapter was officially translated now are having a bad time .
That serves them well .
Some people might have believed the memes, but those making the memes were likely just doing it for satirical fun.

However, I was seriously pissed off at that Geekdom clown for shitting on the chapter based on leaked scans with no context. And he still put up a review before the chapter was officially translated in English. Seriously talk about pre-emptive knee-jerk stupidity right there. Ugh, this is why I hate DB Youtubers in general.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:47 pm

Clearly the best way to consume the manga is to make knee jerk reactions based on 4 untranslated leaked pages :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by prince212 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:38 am

Noah wrote:
It actually would be better if Torishima was still there to avoid the sh*t Toriyama/Toyotaro do with the storytelling.
I’m not sure if editors get that involve with the storytelling , I thought the were more story planners and advisers ( kinda what toriyama is supposed to be slightly doing ..) , but anyways , wasn’t that the first editor of toriyama that didn’t want goku to grow ? Was he involved in how toriyama write the story or in what was in the story?..
Still yeah , this franchise needs a better guide , named it whatever , and seems to be easy staying on the other side , but .. it’s a big risk for a sequel series with not too much to gain and big reputation to lose .
But I wish they’ll take mayor story changes , and to be honest they already made the hardest job by creating universes, destruction gods, Zeno, alternative timelines .., they just need to develop what they did.
Anime cancelled and broly movie just put all this new things down , but I hope they are able to connect every piece on place ..
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HipMasterDan » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:27 am

Noah wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Would be better if Toriyama corrected more often, though.
It actually would be better if Torishima was still there to avoid the sh*t Toriyama/Toyotaro do with the storytelling.
Editors don't control how the story goes. It's more like a suggestion. If a creator wanted to cause a lot a controversy around his work and the editor suggested that would be a terrible choice, It's the creator who gets the final say.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HipMasterDan » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:38 am

BlueVegerot wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
BlueVegerot wrote:

Toyotaro traced but your worship of a dbtuber is weak
Your post is weak. If you think that "worship" means agreeing with someone, then half of the goddam world is deities. Ajay knows what he's talking about, so he has way more credibility than the average dude when it comes to this stuff. You wouldn't say that you worship a doctor is you agree with his medical point of view rather than a random guy's, would you?
PsionicWorrior wrote: I am sorry but this "proof" does not hold enough water for me, reply to the arguments I backed if you have a problem with that cheers lol
Why don't you add a couple more "lols" in there? And no, I won't reply to your arguments, because unlike everyone else, I don't pretend that I'm somehow more knowledgeable of this stuff. If multiple dudes who can actually draw (the PROFESSIONAL artist and Ajay) said that it's a trace, then everyone else has to just shut up and accept it because they have no way of disproving it with their very limited knowlege. What even is the point of arguing about it, if you don't know what the hell you're talking about unlike the oppsite side of view. You just make yourself look ignorant

The fact that you felt the need to bring up a youtuber in an obvious argument shows how weak your post is. Its like you are offended that a few people don't agree with the great animeajay. Get outta here you sheep. "muh youtubers" "muh professional artists".

Whats next bringing up geekdom when someone disagrees with you about an in universe thing?

"i can't believe people still think ssj grade 4 is stronger than ssj despite what geekdom101 says".

Stop using youtubers as a crutch and make your points on your own
You don't understand, we have to listen to what someone says and treat it as law. You and your silly myths about "opinions". Unless your a YouTuber, you can't choose what you want to think.

(I'm being sarcastic. I'm pointing this out because I'm notorious for being misinterpreted on other platforms)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:48 am

Noah wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Would be better if Toriyama corrected more often, though.
It actually would be better if Torishima was still there to avoid the sh*t Toriyama/Toyotaro do with the storytelling.
Toriyama said Torishima liked what he wrote for Resurrection F so... :think:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:54 am

Torishima's the guy who said it should have ended at Freeza so we wouldn't have women and geezers fighting.

Torishima can stay as far away from DB as humanly possible.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:44 am

Saiga wrote:Torishima's the guy who said it should have ended at Freeza so we wouldn't have women and geezers fighting.
That wasn't the reason, he said if it ended at Freeza Toriyama could've created a 3rd hit manga to sit alongside Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball. Although I'm extremely happy Toriyama didn't end things on Namek, the nearly 200 chapters it took to tell the Cell and Buu arcs could've resulted in a new hit manga so Torishima is justified in thinking that.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:00 am

TKA wrote:Jesus Christ.

What is even going on in this thread? Now we're shitting on Akira Toriyama? The level of myopic you need to be to not see how this franchise is garbage without him is—I can't find words to describe it. Maybe getting Battle of Gods, whichever version of Super you like and Resurrection F has numbed you all to where this franchise was when AT divorced himself from it.

GT. Endless re-releases because nobody can come up with anything that sticks. Heroes scraping the bottom of the barrel. Random transformations thrown on random characters in lieu of development and actual story-crafting. Shitty characters emerging in video games and the like because AT isn't around to design.

That's where we're coming from. This franchise doesn't need Toriyama/Toriyama doesn't play a key role to its success? The years of 1995-2013 show that notion is ill-conceived at best and completely worthless at worst.
Thanks TKA! This is similar to what happens to Star Wars now as well!
I am happy that Toriyama returned to Dragon Ball. Well, Super had issues in art and animation department and in writers adapting some stuff, but overall, I loved BoG storyline - it brought something fresh and new into the formula we were used to. I liked Ressurection F. Of course, after having Freeza ressurected and shown many times in what is actually filler and sidequest stuff, leaves a little bitter taste in mouth,
but I liked the Hell idea, I liked Freeza's transformation. I liked the SSJB mechanics being build upon SSG from BoG and perfecting it, returning to the original SSJ form and not stocking numbers and growing hair to infinite realms. It is true that the blue hair had to grow on me and I would like more if the original SSG stayed with some update, as I liked the sleek god-like design and it being basically Goku in base form and SSJ being obsolete - well :)) I liked the foray into Universe 6, Zamasu arc and the Tournament, which was tad longer than I wanted and too much of weird designs in the mix.
But I really loved return of Trunks and other stuff. You can argue that it is fanservice, but with the movies and Super, I really felt like watching continuation of my favorite show from my childhood.
And that ending with Goku vs Vegeta and Freeza back, left open. That is so Toriyama! Like in original manga - the stories we wanted to tell ended, but the adventure goes on (Yeah, we know that there is the Z and manga epilogue after Super stories, but you get me). Only thing that I don't like in modern DB is the new composer and music.

With TOEI doing stuff without Toriyama... The movies were kinda good, as those were actually plot points and the artstyle from the series and it had the atmosphere, but even tough I liked GT as a kid, it had this dark atmosphere and bitter taste, everyone was old and their heyday was long gone and that definitive ending of Goku going of the world. It was too much epic and serious for Dragon Ball.
Thanks to Toriyama for early designs, but GT was this weird recycle.

I am not looking forward to see Brolly... again. I am not much of a fan of Movie 8, as there is not much fighting. After some interesting lore and history, it is just about Brolly walking and wrecking the main cast without any aesthetic. But I loved Movie 10 with Gohan, Trunks and Goten. It was fun adventure with kinda interesting fight at the end :)
But I am looking forward, to what they will do with him Toriyama-wise! As the Movie 8 is subpar in the second part and holds up just by visuals in my opinion.
I was sad when Super ended, as I was hoping for some last villain oriented last arc after the tournament, and it was crystal clear that it will be friendly competition, as we know everyone survives and the erasure plot point was just there. So yes, can't wait for another story inspired by the original manga creator :)
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:52 am

TKA wrote:Random transformations thrown on random characters in lieu of development and actual story-crafting.
Oh, this perfectly describes modern Toriyama too. And I would add "random fights in/and endless tournaments, a "chapter" without any substance at all, a pontless movie... All in lieu of development and actual story-crafting".
TKA wrote:Shitty characters emerging in video games and the like because AT isn't around to design.
Right, because Monaka and Botamo (and countless others) all have marvelous designs, they're the pinnacle of awesome characters in general.
TKA wrote:That's where we're coming from. This franchise doesn't need Toriyama/Toriyama doesn't play a key role to its success? The years of 1995-2013 show that notion is ill-conceived at best and completely worthless at worst.
In other words, we need Toriyama so that the "success" means "we're gonna need a bigger money", merchandising alone is strong, but when Toriyama is involved, it skyrockets like anything we've ever seen, right? Because surely it's been proved that Dragon Ball can succeed without Toriyama, so probably what you really wanted to mean was money.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:13 am

Saiga wrote:Torishima's the guy who said it should have ended at Freeza so we wouldn't have women and geezers fighting.

Torishima can stay as far away from DB as humanly possible.
What's wrong with what he said?

And you're misrepresenting him. He said the androids didn't look threatening.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:32 am

Grimlock wrote:
Oh, this perfectly describes modern Toriyama too. And I would add "random fights in/and endless tournaments, a "chapter" without any substance at all, a pontless movie... All in lieu of development and actual story-crafting".
Nonsense. I'm not going to get into the subjectivity of what you like or don't like, so you don't do that either.

For years Dragonball products sold themselves on shallow "what ifs" that amounted to "HEY WE GAVE VEGETA/BROLY SUPER SAIYAN 3!" That's as "creative" as this shit got. Transformations in lieu of character development.

The Super manga has more direct Toriyama influence, and with it and Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, we see that each new transformation marks a change in character for our heroes.
Right, because Monaka and Botamo (and countless others) all have marvelous designs, they're the pinnacle of awesome characters in general.
Again, I won't get into what you like or dislike.

However, Monaka and Botamo's designs actually fit their characters and the role they're supposed to play. Botamo was meant to be disarming because of his rotund appearance, and then said appearance was justified in-story with his ability. Monaka was meant to look pathetic to conceal the fact that he was the strongest in Universe 7 (and to trick the viewers into thinking that's actually what's going on, before the reveal that he really IS as pathetic as he looks).

I think those are better uses of character designing than the Para Para Brothers, Super Hot Topic 17, More-Spikes-Than-Mega-Aerodactyl Omega Shenron, and pretty much any Dragonball Heroes-original character.
In other words, we need Toriyama so that the "success" means "we're gonna need a bigger money", merchandising alone is strong, but when Toriyama is involved, it skyrockets like anything we've ever seen, right? Because surely it's been proved that Dragon Ball can succeed without Toriyama, so probably what you really wanted to mean was money.
Don't try to twist my words. I say what I mean.

Monetarily, there's no denying that Dragonball as a franchise has pulled in way more money since Toriyama returned to it, so I have no reason to argue that.

I'm talking about quality. The quality of the franchise has improved drastically as far as I'm concerned.

But thanks for your opinion, I guess.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:41 am

TKA wrote:I'm not going to get into the subjectivity of what you like or don't like, so you don't do that either.
TKA wrote:I'm talking about quality. The quality of the franchise has improved drastically as far as I'm concerned.
Hm, really makes me think.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:09 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Hm, really makes me think.
Wow, such an insightful comment from you. You've added a ton to the discussion. Holy shit I've never SEEN such insight.

Sarcasm aside, yes, that's how language works. I said I won't discuss what he likes, and then I made it clear that the subjective line is from my perspective. I'm glad you understand.
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