"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

Apparently Toppo and Dyspo got weakened to Early DB levels if they weren't even able to clear a gap that small.

[RecolorSaiyan]

He's a joke because he got blown the fuck out by Vegeta flexing his aura. This isn't hard to understand.

So the exact same thing that happened in the anime right? An explosion of ki knocked him off the stage.

I guess jiren is a joke for losing to base freeza and base goku right? or is that ok cause its the anime ? I'd really like to know how you think , you seem very interesting as a "fan"

I'm not defending the anime. I think it's a piece of shit.

You're still making false equivalencies and acting as if big dramatic moments deprived of their context are the same as an anticlimatic and pathetic moment like Toppo's defeat here.

Its not a false equivalency. According to you losing to an aura makes you a joke but losing to two fighters in their weakest states, one of whom had the equivalent of cardiac arrest 10 seconds earlier. I'm sure it was "cool" to you cause of music and "OMG freeza and goku" but it makes jiren look no less pathetic. The strongest mortal ever losing to two fighters in their weakest states. This was after he had powered up after getting encouragement from Toppo so its even worse.

This is like when people complain toyo ruined kefla cause "she admitted defeat" as if the anime didn't do the same to jiren but nobody ever brings that up.

It gets tiring seeing hypocritical comments all the time from people who think Toei never does anything wrong and Toyo always flubs up even when its the same general idea. Anyways arguing with you is pointless. We will never see eye to eye. You clearly dislike toyotaro and thats fine, its your opinion but i'm not interested in making arguments with people who already have their minds made up.

[Dbzk1999]

So the exact same thing that happened in the anime right? An explosion of ki knocked him off the stage.

I guess jiren is a joke for losing to base freeza and base goku right? or is that ok cause its the anime ? I'd really like to know how you think , you seem very interesting as a "fan"

I'm not defending the anime. I think it's a piece of shit.

You're still making false equivalencies and acting as if big dramatic moments deprived of their context are the same as an anticlimatic and pathetic moment like Toppo's defeat here.

Its not a false equivalency. According to you losing to an aura makes you a joke but losing to two fighters in their weakest states, one of whom had the equivalent of cardiac arrest 10 seconds earlier. I'm sure it was "cool" to you cause of music and "OMG freeza and goku" but it makes jiren look no less pathetic. The strongest mortal ever losing to two fighters in their weakest states. This was after he had powered up after getting encouragement from Toppo so its even worse.

This is like when people complain toyo ruined kefla cause "she admitted defeat" as if the anime didn't do the same to jiren but nobody ever brings that up.

It gets tiring seeing hypocritical comments all the time from people who think Toei never does anything wrong and Toyo always flubs up even when its the same general idea. Anyways arguing with you is pointless. We will never see eye to eye. You clearly dislike toyotaro and thats fine, its your opinion but i'm not interested in making arguments with people who already have their minds made up.

What's the point of mentioning the anime? Especially with someone that shits on it just as much as they shit on the manga

[RecolorSaiyan]

I'm not defending the anime. I think it's a piece of shit.

You're still making false equivalencies and acting as if big dramatic moments deprived of their context are the same as an anticlimatic and pathetic moment like Toppo's defeat here.

Its not a false equivalency. According to you losing to an aura makes you a joke but losing to two fighters in their weakest states, one of whom had the equivalent of cardiac arrest 10 seconds earlier. I'm sure it was "cool" to you cause of music and "OMG freeza and goku" but it makes jiren look no less pathetic. The strongest mortal ever losing to two fighters in their weakest states. This was after he had powered up after getting encouragement from Toppo so its even worse.

This is like when people complain toyo ruined kefla cause "she admitted defeat" as if the anime didn't do the same to jiren but nobody ever brings that up.

It gets tiring seeing hypocritical comments all the time from people who think Toei never does anything wrong and Toyo always flubs up even when its the same general idea. Anyways arguing with you is pointless. We will never see eye to eye. You clearly dislike toyotaro and thats fine, its your opinion but i'm not interested in making arguments with people who already have their minds made up.

What's the point of mentioning the anime? Especially with someone that shits on it just as much as they shit on the manga

Have you read this thread? Its a bunch of concern trolls who just have to drop in "the anime is way better" or something similar. Its everywhere and the guy I was responding to has done that as well.

It gets tiring reading hypocritical criticisms of stuff that was in the other version. You know how people have nostalgia about Z being way better than it was? Thats the same thing people now have for the DBS anime, its now this flawless piece of work that could do no wrong cause it ended 6 months ago.

[kudo6000]

Another sub-par chapter with terrible art. At the very least, Toyotaro's approach with Jiren's skull structure seems to be more consistent than it has been for these past few months. Jiren's blunt demeanor was humorous; especially the look on his face when Dyspo requested for back-up. Other than that, this chapter was more tolerable than last month, but still not all that special.

On a side note, I just love how no one other than Kuririn really gave a fuck about No. 17's self destruction.

[Doctor.]

Beerus said Vegeta could be a Hakaishin candidate in another Universe, after a display of power.

Goku was ringed out by Toppo because he let his guard down. The later doubts his chances of victory if not for that moment.

Toppo is a big deal, Vegeta is an even bigger deal. The Saiyans evolving during battle further increases the gap between Toppo and Vegeta. This is not head-canon it's all explicitly said in the manga.

Vegeta being a GoD candidate makes him equal to Toppo, which is fine. Vegeta stalematting with Toppo is fine. Vegeta beating Toppo after getting a power-up is fine.

You don't seem to understand I don't have a problem with any of this. What I have a problem with is off-screening the entire fight, only to asspull a form for Vegeta as he casually tosses Toppo into the trash by raising his Ki and focuses solely on Jiren as if he wasn't fighting anyone before. Toppo might as well not have been there, it would have had the same effect on Vegeta. And to make things worse, just to really signal to the audience that Toyotaro really wants to get rid of the character, he can't jump over some ROCKS because he got tired after WIND pushed him back. It's dumb, contrived, anticlimatic and, yes, pathetic.

Goku can teleport around the ki signature. He was close enough to Jiren's as well as Vegeta's ki to do so. This isn't a plot hole.

It's a plot hole, just a minor one. If not, and it's as you say, then it's piss poor writing, because Goku could only move a few meters away from Jiren and he would still be in his range and could be sensed.

Its not a false equivalency. According to you losing to an aura makes you a joke but losing to two fighters in their weakest states, one of whom had the equivalent of cardiac arrest 10 seconds earlier. I'm sure it was "cool" to you cause of music and "OMG freeza and goku" but it makes jiren look no less pathetic. The strongest mortal ever losing to two fighters in their weakest states. This was after he had powered up after getting encouragement from Toppo so its even worse.

This is like when people complain toyo ruined kefla cause "she admitted defeat" as if the anime didn't do the same to jiren but nobody ever brings that up.

It gets tiring seeing hypocritical comments all the time from people who think Toei never does anything wrong and Toyo always flubs up even when its the same general idea. Anyways arguing with you is pointless. We will never see eye to eye. You clearly dislike toyotaro and thats fine, its your opinion but i'm not interested in making arguments with people who already have their minds made up.

Who the fuck are you talking to? Because it's clearly not me. I told you one response ago that I think the anime is a piece of shit (and go ahead, ask anyone on this forum if I'm lying) and you say I'm hypocritical and think Toei can do no wrong? I think both versions of Super are hot garbage, my dude; and not because my mind is "made up" but because they've given me countless reasons to think they're hot garbage.

Now as to your anime comparison, I never questioned whether or not Vegeta beating Toppo makes sense. I said the way Toppo went out was pathetic because it was presented that way. Toppo was casually swatted aside like a fly as Vegeta chases a stronger opponent, and then he didn't have enough energy to jump and then he falls off the stage. It's an anti-climax. For as absolutely retarded the anime version of the scene was (much more-so than the manga), it was presented at the very least with some degree of gravitas and poignancy. You may think Goku and Freeza beating Jiren is dumb, and frankly I don't really care if you do, but the way it's presented doesn't make Jiren look pathetic at all, because of the music and thematic meaning behind the fight, as you yourself make the case for.

[LimitbreakerKrillin]

- #17's self destruction feel completely flat. I wasn't a huge fan of that moment in the anime, but at least the intention behind that moment in the anime was more earnest and palpable because it was in an moment of desperation and a last ditch attempt to protect Goku and Vegeta from Jiren eliminating the two of them along with and #17 at once. Not to mention #17 felt much more rounded as a character leading up to that character beat and felt more integral to the plot, as well the fact he had created a much better dynamic with the main cast before he blew himself up. The lack of any response from #18 in the manga made this moment all the more jarring and inconsequential.

Can anyone remember if Manga 17 had mentioned his family before this? Because this entire scene felt like a 'Oh shit, we forgot to give him any of that character build up or emotional connection to make you give a crap about his sacrificial moment. Quick, dump it on the audience just as he has his fake out death!' moment.

Chapter 31; when Goku first met #17

[Jaden]

So are we certain Toyotaro gave Vegeta Blue Evolution? Cause Vegeta didn't have pupils in this form.
Seems like the only thing that's changed is his aura.

So, are we to assume it is a new transformation or simply a power up of Blue?

[RecolorSaiyan]

Beerus said Vegeta could be a Hakaishin candidate in another Universe, after a display of power.

Goku was ringed out by Toppo because he let his guard down. The later doubts his chances of victory if not for that moment.

Toppo is a big deal, Vegeta is an even bigger deal. The Saiyans evolving during battle further increases the gap between Toppo and Vegeta. This is not head-canon it's all explicitly said in the manga.

Vegeta being a GoD candidate makes him equal to Toppo, which is fine. Vegeta stalematting with Toppo is fine. Vegeta beating Toppo after getting a power-up is fine.

You don't seem to understand I don't have a problem with any of this. What I have a problem with is off-screening the entire fight, only to asspull a form for Vegeta as he casually tosses Toppo into the trash by raising his Ki and focuses solely on Jiren as if he wasn't fighting anyone before. Toppo might as well not have been there, it would have had the same effect on Vegeta. And to make things worse, just to really signal to the audience that Toyotaro really wants to get rid of the character, he can't jump over some ROCKS because he got tired after WIND pushed him back. It's dumb, contrived, anticlimatic and, yes, pathetic.

Goku can teleport around the ki signature. He was close enough to Jiren's as well as Vegeta's ki to do so. This isn't a plot hole.

It's a plot hole, just a minor one. If not, and it's as you say, then it's piss poor writing, because Goku could only move a few meters away from Jiren and he would still be in his range and could be sensed.

Its not a false equivalency. According to you losing to an aura makes you a joke but losing to two fighters in their weakest states, one of whom had the equivalent of cardiac arrest 10 seconds earlier. I'm sure it was "cool" to you cause of music and "OMG freeza and goku" but it makes jiren look no less pathetic. The strongest mortal ever losing to two fighters in their weakest states. This was after he had powered up after getting encouragement from Toppo so its even worse.

This is like when people complain toyo ruined kefla cause "she admitted defeat" as if the anime didn't do the same to jiren but nobody ever brings that up.

It gets tiring seeing hypocritical comments all the time from people who think Toei never does anything wrong and Toyo always flubs up even when its the same general idea. Anyways arguing with you is pointless. We will never see eye to eye. You clearly dislike toyotaro and thats fine, its your opinion but i'm not interested in making arguments with people who already have their minds made up.

Who the fuck are you talking to? Because it's clearly not me. I told you one response ago that I think the anime is a piece of shit (and go ahead, ask anyone on this forum if I'm lying) and you say I'm hypocritical and think Toei can do no wrong? I think both versions of Super are hot garbage, my dude; and not because my mind is "made up" but because they've given me countless reasons to think they're hot garbage.

Now as to your anime comparison, I never questioned whether or not Vegeta beating Toppo makes sense. I said the way Toppo went out was pathetic because it was presented that way. Toppo was casually swatted aside like a fly as Vegeta chases a stronger opponent, and then he didn't have enough energy to jump and then he falls off the stage. It's an anti-climax. For as absolutely retarded the anime version of the scene was (much more-so than the manga), it was presented at the very least with some degree of gravitas and poignancy. You may think Goku and Freeza beating Jiren is dumb, and frankly I don't really care if you do, but the way it's presented doesn't make Jiren look pathetic at all, because of the music and thematic meaning behind the fight, as you yourself make the case for.

I never made a case for the music and themes making it any better. I said thats probably why YOU liked it.

Lets go back to how previous villains lost

Freeza - to THE legendary super saiyan

Cell - SS2 gohan with his father encouraging him and still needed an opening from Vegeta distracting Cell

Boo - ss3 goku utterly failed and required a genki dama powered up by billions + getting his stamina returned by the Dragonballs

Jiren - powers up after his teammates say the believe in him, loses to base freeza and base goku. THE STRONGEST Mortal lost to two fighters ( a reckless fighting nut and the emperor of evil) at their weakest natural states Jiren losing cleanly to UI goku would have been better than that crap.

[CriticalThinker]

Yet another mediocre chapter this month and easily the worst one for me thus far. He's been really dropping the ball in regards to the climax so far.

Things I disliked:

.I'm not even a big fan of Vegeta but I feel like he deserved a better fight than what he got. Having most of the fight happen offscreen sucked and it didn't make it any better with how underwhelming the end of his fight with Toppo was.
.Dyspo didn't do jack and I'm annoyed we didn't get to see him fight 17, dude felt even more pointless here than he did in the anime.
.Didnt care for Vegetas power up or his reason for it.
.18 not even reacting to 17s "death" annoyed me, I get that she's not the most emotional person ever but I'd at least expect her to show some concern. But nope she's doesn't even seem to really give a damn.
.Not a fan of Goku going UI at will either.
.Really just disappointed with how Dyspo and Toppo were treated overall, especially Toppo. I thought for the most part Toyo had handled Toppo better in the manga than the anime in regards to the TOP. But having his fight with Vegeta being off screened for the whole tournament just sucked and the ends of the fight like I said before was very underwhelming.

Another problem I have not so much with this chapter but with this climax is the fighting. I was hoping that when we got to this point that Toyo would flesh out the fights more and be a bit more creative with them. But instead he hasn't and the biggest crime for me is that most of these other big fights outside of the Jiren one are skimmed over. Gohan vs Kefla which could have easily been the best fight in both mediums happens mostly off screen, same thing happened with Vegeta and Toppo, and Dyspo was just there. Like if I were a bigger fan of Jiren and his fight with Goku maybe this wouldn't bother me so much but since I'm not I just can't help but feel disappointed with how lacklustre most of the other big fights have been so far. At this point I don't have much faith that he'll be able to pull off a satisfactory conclusion to this arc but I guess I'll see next month.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

I don’t think Vegeta’s power up was SSJBE, probably the state before it. It’s probably more powerful than Goku’s SSJBKK though. Toyotarou drew Vegeta with pupils before this arc started, so i’d say he’ll acheive it agaisn’t Jiren.

What is this drawing, exactly?

[Alruneia]

So are we certain Toyotaro gave Vegeta Blue Evolution? Cause Vegeta didn't have pupils in this form.
Seems like the only thing that's changed is his aura.

So, are we to assume it is a new transformation or simply a power up of Blue?

It's not Blue Evolution. People pushing it in this thread doesn't make it so.
Going by the SSBE we saw in the anime: The eyes are wrong (no pupils). The hair is wrong (not shiny).
Going by the other SSBE design we've seen: The buffness is wrong (same muscle mass as before). The hair is wrong (not shiny).
Sure, Vegeta got a new aura and got stronger, there's no denying that. But that doesn't make him SSBE. It's much safer to assume that he's powering up his SSB in a similar fashion to Goku's Not-Kaioken in the previous chapter.

[Spider-Man]

Another bad chapter I'm not suprised by the slightest:

-Vegeta power up was just as bad in the anime seriously it just feel insulting, glad Jiren stop his nonsense which was the best part of this chapter lol.

-Dyspo and Toppo we're are hardly any different from any ToP fodder. It's typical from the manga to shafted any potentially interesting characters.

-17 Sacrifice was lack any emotional impact it was just there.

[Doctor.]

]Jiren - powers up after his teammates say the believe in him, loses to base freeza and base goku. THE STRONGEST Mortal lost to two fighters ( a reckless fighting nut and the emperor of evil) at their weakest natural states Jiren losing cleanly to UI goku would have been better than that crap.

I don't know why you're so hung up on this point. I'll say it in bold letters so you understand clearly what I'm all about:

The anime is a piece of shit too.

Whether I think one scene of the anime was well-executed or not is irrelevant considering it wouldn't change my overall opinion of the show. You could go ahead and change my mind about the scene, and it still wouldn't change my mind about the manga because the anime's wrongs don't make the manga's wrongs right. I may have compared the manga to the anime earlier but that was just to show how a certain scene could be done better, even if slightly; it'd be pointless to mention the anime whenever the manga does something good because there wouldn't be a point to the comparison then.

I'm not about to get stuck into a debate I don't want to have, because defending the Super anime for an extended period of time is just about the most disgusting thing I could spend my time on, so I'll get back to you if you intend on discussing the manga on its own merits. You're clearly not debating against me, but against some imaginary hypocrite Toei shill you have created, so I'm getting upset over your constant misrepresentation and it's best I stop myself here.

[kudo6000]

I've noticed that a vast majority of manga fans always tend to share this hive mind that if you give out negative criticisms towards the manga, you must be biased towards the anime and hold it up on some pedestal; as if it's impossible to disapprove of both.

[Spider-Man]

I've noticed that a vast majority of manga fans always tend to share this hive mind that if you share negative criticisms towards the manga, you must be biased towards the anime and hold it up on some pedestal; as if it's impossible to disapprove of both.

I really dislike this toxic attitude that the fanbase has even without the anime I will still dislike the manga and It's lackluster story.

[Rakurai]

It's a plot hole, just a minor one. If not, and it's as you say, then it's piss poor writing, because Goku could only move a few meters away from Jiren and he would still be in his range and could be sensed.

I guess it was also piss poor writing that Krillin and Gohan could hide from Frieza's goonies with power level scouters.

Have you ever stopped to think that perhaps they could also suppress their ki to untraceable levels? Probably not seeing as you also made this kind of ridiculous comment:

And to make things worse, just to really signal to the audience that Toyotaro really wants to get rid of the character, he can't jump over some ROCKS because he got tired after WIND pushed him back. It's dumb, contrived, anticlimatic and, yes, pathetic.

It's like you just look at the pictures without context. I guess Kale blew away a good number of fighters and the Namekians using WIND as well. I guess being tired and damaged enough after that knockback and getting kicked around by Frieza doesn't mean anything. It's like I'm reading the comments of someone who just looked at leaks and started bitching without understanding what was going on in the dialogue or context. Jesus.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Its sad honestly. I rememer when we were all exited for db to return, and now it has left a sour taste in most of our mouths... and i honestly believe that both the anime and the manga could have done good, they just seem like they dont care about putting effort into the story.

I also feel like introducing a mortal above hakaishin level in a tournament where goku has 48 minutes to master a technique gods have trouble with... was a horrible idea.

Horrible setting for such an antagonist.

[Rakurai]

Apparently Toppo and Dyspo got weakened to Early DB levels if they weren't even able to clear a gap that small.

Again with the power level stuff. Did people complain when Saiyan saga Vegeta with a beating like his should've also been able to get up and walk like it was nothing since it takes literally just fraction of 1 power level to?

[Bergamo]

I've noticed that a vast majority of manga fans always tend to share this hive mind that if you give out negative criticisms towards the manga, you must be biased towards the anime and hold it up on some pedestal; as if it's impossible to disapprove of both.

A generalization about generalizations? That's like 2 times as counterproductive. If it's true that you see people making assumptions about the vast majority of manga critics, how are you any better than them by making assumptions about the vast majority of manga fans?